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Doctor Who Season 11 [** Spoilers **]

12467

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I suppose she meant the dumbing down of the doctor, rather than the dumbing down of the show.

    Fair enough, though I'd stick with my point; the show - and its lead character - fluctuates so wildly in approach, it's easy to see how folks stick to "their doctor" and don't warm to the new iteration.

    I can see both ends: Whittaker's Doctor so far is a lot less sure & authoritative than the previous version(s), but given how RTD and Moffat went to the well of "The Lonely God" so often, their Docs being borderline omnipotent, it's easy to see how this new one is much more underpowered and off-balance. The show needed to reign itself in again, both creatively and narratively IMO.

    It's a bit like when Tom Baker morphed into Peter Davison; that gear shift from the boisterous, outsized personality of Baker into the timid uncertainty of Davison's portrayal put a lot of people off at the time.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    How exactly is the Doctor dumbed down? I don't buy it.

    I remember being baffled in this forum during Smiths run as people were telling me RTD's run was far more clever than Moffat's. This in spite of the pretty obvious farty plasticy farty evidence to the contrary.

    People just seem to think the one they like is clever :D

    The Doctor comes across as stupified all the time, in cases like this before it was an act or it was a process, with this one so far it just seems like luck. I hope I am wrong and we see a glimpse of it being part of the process, I just haven't seen it yet. seems to have all the technical smarts of a Dr but the working out what is going on, doesn't seem to be there, the Dr now waits for someone to tell them. this has happened to all the Drs in the new Who but not every single episode.

    I am still enjoying this, and I think JW could be a great doctor but this is the only issue so far for me, other than that i am enjoying it, and the companions


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    I can see where you're from in terms of there not being as much working out; there are a lot slapping the forehead moments for the Doctor this series. In terms of dumbing down though, the Moffat era got far too clever for its own good, series 6 was an absolute mess as was all the impossible girl stuff although I would say that the "solutions" so far this series have been far too simple and even questionable. But I don't think it's been any worse than some of the low points of the RTD stuff mentioned already.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Whoops; so whether by accident or on purpose - given who was the target of the episode! - if American Amazon users tried to watch Kerblam!, they instead got the next episode (The Witchfinders) days early. The bug is apparently already fixed, but I'm going to go ahead and guess it'll appear on the darker corners of the internet soon enough...


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,716 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Whoops; so whether by accident or on purpose - given who was the target of the episode! - if American Amazon users tried to watch Kerblam!, they instead got the next episode (The Witchfinders) days early. The bug is apparently already fixed, but I'm going to go ahead and guess it'll appear on the darker corners of the internet soon enough...

    Once again, The Master is up to his old tricks!

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    pixelburp wrote: »
    I don't get the 'preachy' argument either; the show has been bullish about its views since the 1970s for goodness sake. Anyone thinking the show is preachy now should go watch "The Green Death" :D

    As for dumbing down, I guess your office mate is choosing to forget the Slitheen? Or indeed much of RTD's run, which, let's be honest, was extremely trashy when it wanted to be.

    I suppose that's the problem with a show with such longevity, and whose format is so flexible: there's literally a tone and approach to suit everyones tastes, but will invariably upset those who prefer Dr. Who 'should' be stick with one particular type.

    Naw, it’s a pretty bad season. No overarching arc, dull enemies, and a not very bright doctor.

    In preparation I watched a few classics in the new Who and nothing here compares. That said there are no absolute clunkers here either and the cinematography is very good. The India episode looked great.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 14,320 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Master


    Once again, The Master is up to his old tricks!

    And I would have gotten away with it too, If it wasn't you pesky meddling kids


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,716 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I hope she's not a one season figure. Would be bad for the show. Yes this this is very bland and the music is sh1te, but they have introduced new species and characters.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    I think there's a deliberate back to basics attitude this season. Toned down opening sequence and music. Self contained episodes. More historical episodes. Local threats rather than the fate of the universe being constantly at stake. The doctor as a traveller in time and space rather than the super amazing last timelord.

    A bit of a relief really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    A proper Doctor Who episode tonight (bar the little preachy bit)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    There is a definite pattern of people taking things into their own hands at the end, to the irritation of the Doctor, that I assume is going to pay off at the end of the season.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Brilliant this week. Loved it. Great script


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    Enjoyed this week!

    Thought it funny last week that the computer placed her exactly where she needed to be to help(maintenence) but switched herself!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Witchfinders was a really fantastic episode, up until the last 10 minutes. Once again it was a historical episode that had enough strengths in its setting and the characters within, without needing the inevitable alien threat. Season 12 should embrace the 'full historical', especially if they're visiting overtly problematic times.

    It was also the first episode that felt like it addressed the reality of the Doctor now being a woman, her authority (and physic paper) collapsing against the most powerful male presence in the area. And as King James, Alan Cumming was dementedly brilliant, chewing the scenery with just the right amount of gusto.

    Those last 10 minutes though. Oof. This was the first episode of this season where I felt the monsters were a bit phoned-in, and lacking any inspiration; defaulting to a 'rule the world' was overkill, & the FX of the lead monster kinda looked a bit goofy. RTD era goofy almost.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    The last ten minutes were tacked on alright. But the alternative would have been another episode where the humans were the real monsters, and that has been overplayed already this season.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I think it was both here: the monsters were the real monsters - but so too were the humans :) The witch-finding material - again like the Rosa Parks episode - did a good job showing the grim reality of those witchhunts within a teatime slot. It was dark stuff already, and like I said the Doctor's gender and super-science was only going to put her in trouble with the rampant paranoia and sexism of the time.

    Have wondered sometimes if Dr. Who scripts start with the monster idea, and works backwards; or indeed if the writers room has a rolling list of 'the mundane turned evil' concepts (like killer mud, statues, WiFi etc.), and gets wedged into broader scripts for the purposes of box ticking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    pixelburp wrote: »
    It was also the first episode that felt like it addressed the reality of the Doctor now being a woman, her authority (and physic paper) collapsing against the most powerful male presence in the area. And as King James, Alan Cumming was dementedly brilliant, chewing the scenery with just the right amount of gusto.


    I did giggle at the psychic paper bit (thats when you know the writing is a little notch above average) and yeah AC was delectable in the part


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    fritzelly wrote: »
    I did giggle at the psychic paper bit (thats when you know the writing is a little notch above average) and yeah AC was delectable in the part

    Was very clever, his mind was not going to accept it do it came up with a tolerant position.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Witchfinders was a really fantastic episode, up until the last 10 minutes. Once again it was a historical episode that had enough strengths in its setting and the characters within, without needing the inevitable alien threat. Season 12 should embrace the 'full historical', especially if they're visiting overtly problematic times.

    It was also the first episode that felt like it addressed the reality of the Doctor now being a woman, her authority (and physic paper) collapsing against the most powerful male presence in the area. And as King James, Alan Cumming was dementedly brilliant, chewing the scenery with just the right amount of gusto.

    Those last 10 minutes though. Oof. This was the first episode of this season where I felt the monsters were a bit phoned-in, and lacking any inspiration; defaulting to a 'rule the world' was overkill, & the FX of the lead monster kinda looked a bit goofy. RTD era goofy almost.

    They scared the crap out of my kids. Nothing else has scared them this series, not even the spiders.

    So on that level I think it worked.

    I loved the line about the pockets as well. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,283 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    Liked the episode. And seems to be going with the Predestination paradox route. So history always occurred the same way and they were always part of the event. With the way Graham or Ryan said they had never heard of the witch killings then King James saying he'll wipe it from the history books


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,083 ✭✭✭✭Busi_Girl08


    CastorTroy wrote: »
    Liked the episode. And seems to be going with the Predestination paradox route. So history always occurred the same way and they were always part of the event. With the way Graham or Ryan said they had never heard of the witch killings then King James saying he'll wipe it from the history books

    Which makes me wonder are we going to see that space racist (spacist?) time traveller from the Rosa Parks episode come back, I'm thinking a Time Meddler style story to round everything together for the finale?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭corkie


    huge.102.510186.JPG

    The New year special is episode 11 according to iMDb, and part of this season and not part of next.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,283 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    This did not feel like a penultimate episode. If I didn't realise next week was the finale, this wouldn't have done anything to tell me.

    This episode was grand. The whole thing with the Upside Down between worlds seemed off. They didn't seem to sure how the rules should work there.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is "Leaping the Frog" the new "Jumping the Shark"?

    (Well being throw by the frog ��)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Actually really enjoyed that episode, very atmospheric, but the Frog at the end was very strange. Could see no reason why they went with a Frog (other than the Gran just liking Frogs). It added an unnecessary random weirdness to the end of a good episode. Some nice touches in it, liked Bradley's performance, and liked the subtle way Eric literally saw the writing on the wall and realised how much he, and his daugther, needed help.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    I enjoyed it too. I have no idea what that ribbons guy or the moths were up to though apart from adding a bit of peril (and totally freaking my 9 year old out when the moth came out of the eyesocket):pac:

    The Doctor sounded like the Doctor in this one (like last week), so I'm happy. Back to Chibnall next week though. woof.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭jim-jam


    Really enjoyed the episode myself. Although once the the speakers were found I couldn't help but think of Father Dougal's BBC sound effects record. Was that Chris the unhappy sheep in the woods off to plot the rebellion?

    Bradley Walsh was excellent in this as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,283 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    I will say, I know people are saying about this show trying too hard to be diverse/PC, but fair play to them casting the blind girl. I've seen deaf actors (Marlee Matlin and Shoshannah Stern as well as others) but can't remember seeing a blind actor before outside maybe a Ray Charles appearance as himself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Was enjoying the episode til the frog! Was a bit like WTF - coulda chosen anything but that, a unicorn maybe?
    There is a worrying trend that each season (almost) is going down in the number of episodes
    Not getting the love for Bradley Walsh - he's an OK actor but these "moments" on Dr Who are nothing special (maybe I'm missing something). Actually BW is a put off for me seeing as he is on TV every single day, multiple times! Bad casting as far as I'm concerned


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That was such a strange episode; I think I love it, but on the surface there were so many strange, competing elements. A surreal, mature tale of desperation of loss & mourning, mixed in with more boilerplate macabre elements of Who; the material set within the Anti-Zone at odds with the brutally simple and emotional stuff in both versions of the houses. And then there was that denouement, itself tying in with the broader themes - albeit featuring a frog.

    The technobabble was a definite narrative sore point: I'd have preferred the Doc to just work out the broad motivations of this solitract(sp) creature on her own, instead of the long info-dump we got by way of an explanation. Though a creature from before time NOT being evil made a nice change of pace.

    Oh and the script definitely let the Dad get away with pretty malevolent, manipulative behaviour against his own daughter. Other than that though, another really strong episode.

    As luck(!) would have it, I chose to watch the episode on the anniversary of my own mother's passing, with my Dad not that long gone too: wasn't expecting such a sad story, all the material around Graham & Hanne's father hitting me like a freight train; so understandably enough, that part of the story resonated with me more than flesh eating moths.

    Also, we finally got the 'grandad' pay off! And credit where it was due, it felt more earned than I feared it might. I thought Bradley Walsh's acting was stronger in other episodes tbh, but Ryan finally saying it felt right.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jazmin Whining Viper


    Finally starting to catch up. I took a break after the spiders but the last few eps have been great!
    The spaceship one and the punjab one. This kerblam one has some lines in it.
    "they're trying to kill all their customers? That's the worst business plan I've ever heard". Ok some preaching going on but sure there always is.

    We're learning snippets of info about anti matter or history, the doctor knows what's what and comes up with plans old style like with the transmat trap.
    Few tennant style "ohhh im so stupid!" while the companions trail along going uwotm8 moments

    The music is no murray gold is all I'll say...

    It seems to have picked way up now imo from the first few eps

    RayCun wrote: »
    I think there's a deliberate back to basics attitude this season. Toned down opening sequence and music. Self contained episodes. More historical episodes. Local threats rather than the fate of the universe being constantly at stake. The doctor as a traveller in time and space rather than the super amazing last timelord.

    A bit of a relief really.

    Totally agree no more lonely doctor superman.

    Enjoyed this week!

    Thought it funny last week that the computer placed her exactly where she needed to be to help(maintenence) but switched herself!

    Ahhhh no way i totally missed that good spot!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,967 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Terrible finale.

    Apparently the next season is in 2020....no Christmas episode this year....

    If this was in its first season on Fox etc there iwouldn't be a 2nd season. Whether it's a man or woman I dont give a ****e at this point.

    Not even Tom Baker could carry these scripts. And does anyone else think that the production values have been trimmed back ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    The Xmas special is on New Years day, going to watch it now (edit: not the special)

    But 2020 - death knells for the series.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,249 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    fritzelly wrote: »
    The Xmas special is on New Years day, going to watch it now (edit: not the special)

    But 2020 - death knells for the series.
    We survived the 2009 specials and there was also just the one episode in 2016 (Return of Doctor Mysterio) This could be a chance for Chris to take stock, decide what did and didn’t work. (Jodie works fine if you ask me) and improve for season 12.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I feel like Dr. Who has been at death's door since Eccleston days, every blip in the ratings, every casting issue proof - PROOF! - that the show was mere moments from cancellation. Not sure why this show in particular is source of people's obsession, I don't see this same kind of chatter for any other show.

    And yes, they moved the Xmas special to New Years Day, and thank goodness for that. Who in 2018 still watches TV as it airs on Xmas day anyway?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,283 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    ebbsy wrote: »
    Not even Tom Baker could carry these scripts. And does anyone else think that the production values have been trimmed back ?

    I think so. This season must have the most human looking aliens in recent years. Most of the time, they don't even bother using makeup or anything to distinguish them from aliens.

    Did feel the Doctor was actually better in this episode


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In makeup maybe but some of the VFX have a much higher budget that Capaldi could have dreamed of.

    Damn it, they really never gave Capaldi anything to work with. Always seemed aimless and disjointed.
    Something they are carrying on with Whitaker.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,967 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    In makeup maybe but some of the VFX have a much higher budget that Capaldi could have dreamed of.

    Damn it, they really never gave Capaldi anything to work with. Always seemed aimless and disjointed.
    Something they are carrying on with Whitaker.

    True, but at least his acting skills were strong enough to pull it along ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    ebbsy wrote: »
    True, but at least his acting skills were strong enough to pull it along ?

    The Capaldi version had an easy hook - he was the older, grumpier doctor (but with a heart of gold beneath the grumpy exterior, naturally). If they lean too hard into Whittaker being female it'll be toys out of the pram time again, so she has to develop the role slowly.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    For all intents and purposes this has felt like a reboot; as RayCun says they had to play this series very carefully, given the obvious tightrope that Whittaker's doctor had to walk in winning over the sceptics and cautious alike.

    I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little sceptical myself over Whittaker: clearly this was uncharted territory in terms of what constituted the 'template' of the Doctor, and wasn't 100% convinced she could carry this. But IMO she nailed it - after Capaldi's grumpy-grandad routine, ANY new Doctor was going to grate.

    It was quite noteworthy that it wasn't until episode 8 they chose to make the Doctor's gender an issue within the plot (when King James refused to acknowledge her authority by dint of her being a woman). Felt like a deliberate decision to just let the character bed in a little before reminding the audience that this Doctor had a potential narrative crutch.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whitaker is VERY good. Still unsure as to the "why?" around the change though.
    Always liked the male intellectual, non violent and gunless "action" hero. Just very few of them in entertainment

    But, as above, happy enough watching her. They've got the casting right regardless of anything else


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Yeah as finales go that was a bit underwhelming really; I was happy enough the season didn't contain any clear arcs until now, though had just assumed the final two episodes would form some broad two-part capper, events suitably ramped up to a climax. I didn't buy into Graham's sudden urge for vengeance either; and while I've enjoyed Bradley Walsh's performance otherwise, his matter-of-fact pronouncements of murderous intent didn't land.

    Suppose technically not the last episode of the season given the New Years one is only a couple of weeks away, so hopefully that'll be something a bit more intriguing. The decision to have no returning villains was brave & initially thought it a smart decision - but the season definitely needed something, or someone to focus the stories a little sharper.

    Still, in the spirit of the season getting back to basics and echoing past stylings of the Classic Era, it was heartening to watch an episode set within a quarry :D Very old-school!

    I also think the FX have been better this season than other years: still a lot of tarted-up 'bottle' episodes, but the CGI and use of effects have been smart and good-for-TV, coupled with the epic location shooting that added to the scale and sweep (such as with The Ghost Monument, or the story set in India).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Have I read it wrong that BW is leaving?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Pity if true. Far better than the other two.

    Companions been week this season. Pity Bill only got the one


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    That finale script wasn't great. I'd love to see Jodie stay and Chibnall leave. Or at least get other writers to do most of the scripts. She's been great when she's had well written dialogue to work with.

    I went back and started watching some of the RTD era episodes. And even the worst ones make more narrative sense and have better dialogue than these have had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,283 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    When was the last time we had a full season with no familiar enemies or allies returning?
    Everything was new here. New Doctor, new TARDIS, new companions, new enemies.
    No Daleks, Cybermen, River, Master/Missy


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Probably one of the seasons from the Classic era: I'm fairly sure the Daleks or Cybermen have featured in every season since the show came back in 2005!


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Music Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators Posts: 24,126 Mod ✭✭✭✭Angron


    I'm kinda glad we got a break from the Daleks at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭NyOmnishambles


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    That finale script wasn't great. I'd love to see Jodie stay and Chibnall leave. Or at least get other writers to do most of the scripts. She's been great when she's had well written dialogue to work with.

    I went back and started watching some of the RTD era episodes. And even the worst ones make more narrative sense and have better dialogue than these have had.

    I haven't really enjoyed this season. it has been fine but not great, fairly ropey

    I really like Jodie and the character she is developing but honestly she is being given sh!t to work with

    The writing has been no where near up to scratch with underdeveloped stories or down right dumb unfinished writing

    Hopefully they can up the standard to what we have become accustomed over the last few seasons otherwise Jodie's run will be deemed a failure and I would hate to see that happen as she could be great


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,669 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Agree with get rid of Chibnall and start writing stories for the Doctor - that is what the show is about after all! The stories are so character diluted it's hard to really get invested in any of them including the Doc or the story
    There hasn't been any real fear this season, I wanna feel peril, danger, not knowing whats coming. These stories have all been pretty much paint by numbers.
    The only highlight has been the witchfinders and the psychic card - everything else pretty much forgettable (especially the spiders)
    And as for the final blah - the most non threatening adversary and so easily overcome


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