Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

BoatMad · 27-10-2016 11:59am

grogi wrote: »

Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.

The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters. Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...

Of course you conveniently ignore the environmental cost ( and electricity consumption) of manufacturing petrol ( or diesel ) never mind the environmental cost of them burning that fuel on the road.

End to end , taking all aspects of the car including the environmental costs of petrol production , EVs are clear winners. This will only improve as electricity generation becomes increasingly decarbonised

That's leaving aside the clear health impacts of hydrocarbon point of Delivery pollution ( nox) as co2 isn't a pollutant

27-10-2016 12:05pm

I think when we get a hell of a lot more electrics on the Roads we're going to have to consider Nuclear, renewable energy is fine but I don't think it has a hope of powering the grid when we dump transport on the grid.

It's the only true way to reduce emissions. Sure I'd love to see solar PV on every house in Ireland but the TWH worth of electricity needed for the grid, this can only come from one source for the majority.

Water John · 27-10-2016 12:28pm

I think the particle emissions from diesel and the health implications will come home to roost. Diesel could get abandoned very quickly.

It is only by going electric in all sorts of ways that we will be able to go towards carbon neutral. Yes it may mean some Thorium salt reactors combined with RE.

Electric cars will roll out quickly, once they get range. Anew lighter battery with higher capacity and quicker charging, which will come, will be a total game changer.

grogi · 27-10-2016 1:34pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Of course you conveniently ignore the environmental cost ( and electricity consumption) of manufacturing petrol ( or diesel ) never mind the environmental cost of them burning that fuel on the road.

End to end , taking all aspects of the car including the environmental costs of petrol production, EVs are clear winners.

No, I don't forget about any of that. I don't also forget the environmental and human cost of mining the lithium as well as rare earth (such as neodymium) elements needed for batteries and electric motors.

Environmental impact and energy cost study should not forget that as a byproduct of oil refining we also get LPG - which is used for heating...

BoatMad wrote: »

This will only improve as electricity generation becomes increasingly decarbonised

I don't know the exact figures, but I feel that unfortunately it does not. For instance wood/timber was reclassify as sustainable energy source...

That's leaving aside the clear health impacts of hydrocarbon point of Delivery pollution ( nox) as co2 isn't a pollutant

No question about that. That alone is enough to ditch ICE all together.

cros13 · 27-10-2016 2:51pm

grogi wrote: »

Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.

That's not true. EVs are so efficient that it's impossible for a combustion vehicle to match them on CO2 emissions especially if you are being honest and including refining and transport emissions and losses (which can be 3000-4000g/L, yeah more than the carbon content of the fuel itself!).

grogi wrote: »

The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

Agreed.

grogi wrote: »

It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters.

That matters to a certain extent. Your run-of-the-mill combined cycle power plant is around 50-60% efficient with the average vehicle ICE being between 25-30% efficient. However you need to take into account the fuel mix on the grid. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/ should give you a primer. The renewable portion is substantially higher at night when the vast majority of us charge (it's also to our financial benefit because of the nightsaver). In December 2015 for a three week period more than 80% of grid power during the nightsaver hours was from renewable. You'll notice the majority of the remainder is gas and then we have the Moneypoint coal station. Moneypoint can't just be turned on and off like a light... it takes to reach peak efficiency after a shutdown.... so even if we were not using the power they still need to run.

grogi wrote: »

Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...

While that's true for gas... it's not true for coal. Coal plants still emit sulfur dioxides and particulates (although less particulates now that particulate traps are installed).

cros13 · 27-10-2016 3:03pm

grogi wrote: »

No, I don't forget about any of that. I don't also forget the environmental and human cost of mining the lithium as well as rare earth (such as neodymium) elements needed for batteries and electric motors.

Lithium mining is relatively clean, provided waste water is managed correctly it's one of the cleanest mining operations. Li also only makes up 1% by weight of the battery at most. Many other materials used such as Cobalt are by-products of other mining or manufacturing (which is actually a big problem for ramping up battery production, because it makes supply price insensitive). Most EV electric motors are AC induction motors that don't use rare earth elements, they are mostly made of coiled copper wire.

grogi wrote: »

I don't know the exact figures, but I feel that unfortunately it does not. For instance wood/timber was reclassify as sustainable energy source...

Provided the wood is replanted it is... The carbon in the wood was in the atmosphere fairly recently after all.

highdef · 27-10-2016 3:22pm

Just spotted 4 white electric Hyundai Ioniqs with dealer plates in what looks like a press/dealer demo or something (everyone in the cars was suited) heading city bound on the Chapelizod bypass.

Is the launch coming up soon?

Water John · 27-10-2016 5:07pm

Put in a phone call to Dannny Healy Rae. He'll do the launch for them.

Mancomb Seepgood · 27-10-2016 7:30pm

Water John wrote: »

Put in a phone call to Dannny Healy Rae. He'll do the launch for them.

Yeah, but can you drive from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back in one?

cros13 · 27-10-2016 9:49pm

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Yeah, but can you drive from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back in one?

I've blown past danny on the M7 doing 50km/h more than him. Since his comments...and given I know the car...I've contemplated putting his car on dollys and towing it from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back with my EV.

Water John · 27-10-2016 9:55pm

Cros, brilliant.

Villain · 28-10-2016 11:17am

Spoke with Hyundai dealer yesterday and they are still very much on a learning curve here but they will have the hybrid and full EV next week, both on his price list at €35k but not sure if the EV Figure is before or after grants etc.

Sadly he said it looks like late 2017 the PHEV model.

cros13 · 28-10-2016 11:22am

Based on the announced UK pricing I'd say that was pre-grant.

KCross · 28-10-2016 11:47am

Its still not on hyundai.ie.
Is there an official launch date known?

Villain · 28-10-2016 12:14pm

KCross wrote: »

Its still not on hyundai.ie.
Is there an official launch date known?

Dealer launch was last week, he said they will have cars by end of next week

KCross · 28-10-2016 12:19pm

Villain wrote: »

Dealer launch was last week, he said they will have cars by end of next week

If its already launched you'd think their website would have it listed! :eek:
I see a link here: http://www.hyundai.ie/ioniq/
Just nothing in their "new cars" section.

According to the UK spec it can do 0-100 in under 10secs as it has an 88kW motor(vs 80kW in Leaf) and it has the 6.6kW charger as standard so it is better than the Leaf in those points but depends on price I suppose.

Villain · 28-10-2016 12:22pm

28kw battery would be disappointing tbh

28-10-2016 12:37pm

Yes , especially with the 40 Kwh Zoe now for order, It makes the Ioniq a very, very hard sell, unless you're in for the hybrid model, Hyundai did say they will have more battery options as production ramps up.

It's pathetic really they didn't at least have a 40 Kwh option. Anyway it will give the Leaf a good run for it's money, at least for now, but I do like it, if I were in the market for a new EV now I would give the Ioniq serious consideration, the Leaf looks dated now. Though actually if I were in the market for a new EV right now I'd probably give the Zoe first choice, though then again the Ioniq does have a decent bit more power than the Zoe.

From what I saw of the Ioniq online, the boot looks a lot better and more practical than either the Leaf or Zoe and this is important to me. Anyway seeing it int he flesh would be cool.

Lol more choice now today, that's good though.

28-10-2016 12:38pm

28-10-2016 12:39pm

Now that I've got the all digital display in the Leaf I do like it over the analogue, though wouldn't it be cool if they'd put a display instead that you can change to analogue or digital and better again, customise it ?

cros13 · 28-10-2016 2:56pm

KCross wrote: »

If its already launched you'd think their website would have it listed! :eek:
I see a link here: http://www.hyundai.ie/ioniq/
Just nothing in their "new cars" section.

According to the UK spec it can do 0-100 in under 10secs as it has an 88kW motor(vs 80kW in Leaf) and it has the 6.6kW charger as standard so it is better than the Leaf in those points but depends on price I suppose.

Don't forget 80kW (advertised as 100kW) CCS rapid charging.

KCross · 28-10-2016 3:21pm

cros13 wrote: »

Don't forget 80kW (advertised as 100kW) CCS rapid charging.

Are you sure?
The UK brochure has "CCS Combo Rapid Charge Port (50kW)".

Also, what use is 80Kw charging in Ireland? Arent nearly all the chargers capped at 50kW and unlikely to change?

28-10-2016 4:33pm

80 Kw charging wouldn't matter much in a 28 Kwh battery. It would ramp power down very quickly as the battery charges up.

KCross · 29-10-2016 12:22am

I agree.
Regardless, the car and the Irish chargers don't support it so I'm unsure where @cros13 is coming from. I think his info is bad.

cros13 · 31-10-2016 5:47pm

Nope my info is accurate. The Ioniq is advertised with 100kW CCS support in many markets but they chose recently to list different specs in different markets. However there is no difference in the charging profile used between markets. Put a UK Ioniq (advertised as 50KW CCS) on a 100kW rapid in Norway and it will peak at 80kW same as the Norwegian Ioniq (advertised as 70KW CCS) or the german one (advertised as 100kW).

Quote from the stage at NYIAS when they hosted the US Ioniq launch:

“Charging the Ioniq Electric’s lithium-ion polymer battery up to 80 percent only takes about 20 minutes using a SAE Combo Level 3 DC, 100 kW fast-charger. An integrated In-Cable Control Box (ICCB) also allows drivers to charge their Ioniq at a standard household electric socket.”

Also Hyundai's news site repeats:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0Jd9QwznbfAJ:https://www.hyundai.news/eu/models/all-new-ioniq-powertrains-the-power-of-choice-for-customers/+&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Hyundai Norway advertises 70kW rapid charging:

https://www.hyundai.no/modeller/hyundai-ioniq-electric/

I'm fully aware that there are no rapid chargers that provide more than 50kW installed on ESBs network. However the ability to charge at more than 50kW is a feature worth noting, especially when they introduce the 50kWh pack for the Ioniq (which will be in 18-24 months). There will be high power CCS rapids in Ireland, it's only a question of when (there are already 40 100-150kW CCS rapids installed throughout europe, with commercial quantity product announcements from efacec and ABB in the next few months).

31-10-2016 5:49pm

I'm stunned the GM Bolt only charges at 45-50 Kw.

KCross · 31-10-2016 9:00pm

cros13 wrote: »

Nope my info is accurate. The Ioniq is advertised with 100kW CCS support in many markets but they chose recently to list different specs in different markets. However there is no difference in the charging profile used between markets. Put a UK Ioniq (advertised as 50KW CCS) on a 100kW rapid in Norway and it will peak at 80kW same as the Norwegian Ioniq (advertised as 70KW CCS) or the german one (advertised as 100kW).

Thats a strange marketing strategy. Why would they under declare the capability of the car? What have they to gain from that?

Are they just declaring whatever the max is for the market based on the chargers currently available so as to no mislead users on charge time? Still strange though.

isnottheword · 31-10-2016 9:45pm

KCross wrote: »

Are they just declaring whatever the max is for the market based on the chargers currently available so as to no mislead users on charge time? Still strange though.

I can only imagine that's the reason - in case they get accused of mis-selling...

BoatMad · 03-11-2016 1:33pm

isnottheword wrote: »

I can only imagine that's the reason - in case they get accused of mis-selling...

yes I suspect thats it

Soarer · 08-11-2016 10:22am

So are these yokes any good or what?

Open weekend this weekend, and might swing over for a look if they're flip hot.

08-11-2016 11:28am

Soarer wrote: »

So are these yokes any good or what?

Open weekend this weekend, and might swing over for a look if they're flip hot.

If you rarely need more than about 160-180 kms I'd say take it for a spin, certainly looks good and is a decent size, on the other hand the 40 Kwh Zoe will offer 220-280 kms range....... the Ioniq larger and faster, Zoe smaller with a lot more range......... you also can't beat that AC charger in the Zoe 22 Kw from normal AC street charge points ! such a difficult life !

Villain · 08-11-2016 2:06pm

Soarer wrote: »

So are these yokes any good or what?

Open weekend this weekend, and might swing over for a look if they're flip hot.

I'm waiting on the PHEV but sounds like it could be late next year :rolleyes:

n97 mini · 08-11-2016 5:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that I've got the all digital display in the Leaf I do like it over the analogue, though wouldn't it be cool if they'd put a display instead that you can change to analogue or digital and better again, customise it ?

The display in front of the steering wheel is a TFT screen, not an actual dial, so it may well be possible to change how it looks.

unkel · 09-11-2016 12:08am

KCross wrote: »

it has the 6.6kW charger as standard so it is better than the Leaf in those points.

Leaf is only sold with the 6.6 kw charger these days and I could have brought one home for €20k incl metallic paint all in

I have to say the Ionic is a much better looking car than the Leaf. How could it not be?

How much does the cheapest model retail for (net of subsidy) - anybody know? It doesn't seem to be on their website.

grogi wrote: »

99% of people don't really care how their car drives, how it is maintained etc. They just want as cheap as possible A to B transportation...

Exactly. Up to recently they have been buying meh econoboxes like Kia C'eed diesels, and before that Toyota Corrolla petrols

Now for significantly lower total cost of ownership (ONLY because of the subsidies), they could own an EV but few people do. I find that strange. Must be ignorance?

KCross · 09-11-2016 1:19am

unkel wrote: »

Leaf is only sold with the 6.6 kw charger these days

What makes you say that?
The 6.6kW is still listed as a €900 optional extra on their website.

unkel · 09-11-2016 1:32am

Yeah, but when you go into Windsor Nissan (surely the biggest seller of Leafs in Ireland?), they have a new price list. Or more like a leaflet really. This was a few months ago when I test drove the car and fairly seriously tested the water in relation to pricing / discount

I was trying to keep the total all-in price to an absolute minimum and I specifically asked for the 3.3 kw charger. Only to be told it was not available any more and the price on the list was for one with the 6.6 kw charger (it did say 6.6 kw on the leaflet)

All-in price for cash (no trade in) was about €20k, with metallic paint and 6.6kw charger

unkel · 09-11-2016 1:37am

Just looked up their website and the basic model is €22.5k, metallic €600 and 6.6 kw €900, so total of €24k, so discount was 17%

isnottheword · 09-11-2016 1:38am

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, but when you go into Windsor Nissan (surely the biggest seller of Leafs in Ireland?), they have a new price list. Or more like a leaflet really. This was a few months ago when I test drove the car and fairly seriously tested the water in relation to pricing / discount

I was trying to keep the total all-in price to an absolute minimum and I specifically asked for the 3.3 kw charger. Only to be told it was not available any more and the price on the list was for one with the 6.6 kw charger (it did say 6.6 kw on the leaflet)

All-in price for cash (no trade in) was about €20k, with metallic paint and 6.6kw charger

News to me - Windsor Link

Thats from earlier in the year but to my knowledge, 6.6kW charging is not as yet standard.

09-11-2016 10:54am

unkel wrote: »

Now for significantly lower total cost of ownership (ONLY because of the subsidies), they could own an EV but few people do. I find that strange. Must be ignorance?

There are a few issues, people really don't believe how cheap it is to drive on electricity.

It's too easy to hand 50+ cash for fuel over the counter and forget about it, if they got a monthly or yearly bill for fuel then people might re-think.

There's also a lack of choice in electrics and family sized electrics at that.

Also, the ultimate "no way" when people think of an EV they think of range.

I think once 300+ Km range electrics appear then we will see a change but the problem will still be a lack of choice, and cost, electrics need to drop in cost fast and not have the tax payer subsidising the auto industry and battery makers in particular.

There is also a certain ignorance in relation to electrics, I've heard crap like " I heard the battery lasts only 20,000 miles" "it only goes for 30 miles" "it can't go over 40 mph" "take 20 hrs to charge" and this always cracks me up " can it charge as it's driving ?"

unkel · 09-11-2016 11:18am

The range is still a real issue for me unless the fast charging nationwide network gets more reliable. I can't see the renting an ICE car for a weekend away to Donegal would be a solution anyone but a hardcore early adaptor would go for. I wouldn't mind the trip over there taking me 5 hours instead of 2.5 hours the once or twice a year I would make a trip like that (for leisure anyway, not for work). I would mind a fast charger not working, or a queue of cars ahead of me waiting to get charged.

Another one I've heard: it's dangerous because it's silent and no one can hear you. Heard that before?

grogi · 09-11-2016 11:26am

unkel wrote: »

Another one I've heard: it's dangerous because it's silent and no one can hear you. Heard that before?

Yes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCtpA67j4l8

Soarer · 09-11-2016 11:40am

Was over in Hyundai yesterday, and I think yer man said the list price for the Ioniq EV was €32k before grants.

I'll be talking to him again tomorrow to confirm, but if that's right, you're looking at €22k nett of grants, trade in deposit, or "haggling". Would be a fine car at that.

KCross · 09-11-2016 11:40am

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, but when you go into Windsor Nissan (surely the biggest seller of Leafs in Ireland?), they have a new price list. Or more like a leaflet really. This was a few months ago when I test drove the car and fairly seriously tested the water in relation to pricing / discount

I was trying to keep the total all-in price to an absolute minimum and I specifically asked for the 3.3 kw charger. Only to be told it was not available any more and the price on the list was for one with the 6.6 kw charger (it did say 6.6 kw on the leaflet)

All-in price for cash (no trade in) was about €20k, with metallic paint and 6.6kw charger

That might simply be a case of that dealer having a stock of those rather than a case of 3.3kW no longer being available?

09-11-2016 11:43am

I've had no single issue with zero noise Ev over almost 6 years, 4 years Prius and nearly 2 driving the Leaf.

At 10 Kph and below people won't really hear and I am aware of this, this is why I beep the horn and most people don't seem to care or find it offensive in any way if it's just a tiny blip.

Quiet electrics is a non issue as far as I'm concerned.

I keep repeating that the real threat is people walking out in front of cars paying attention to their mobiles, with ear phones in they are not aware of their surroundings.

I've had an instance in the Woody's car park in carlow Town several months ago where an elderly lady was walking with her young Granddaughter texting and had no control over the child, not holding her hand and texting, she would have walked out under me if I hadn't have blipped the horn, the Child had more sense.

The U.S are supposed to pass a law to make electrics as noisy as petrol cars idling at slow speeds with no possible way to turn this noise making device off , absolutely ridiculous , one of the major benefits of electrics is the removal of noise pollution, yes noise is considered pollution as well as light.

Imagine the noise of thousands of cars making different electronic whines and noises ? it will be absolutely head wrecking.

Worse of all the anti ev brigade in the U.S want the noise makers to stay on even when the car is stopped in traffic.

KCross · 09-11-2016 11:45am

Soarer wrote: »

Was over in Hyundai yesterday, and I think yer man said the list price for the Ioniq EV was €32k before grants.

I'll be talking to him again tomorrow to confirm, but if that's right, you're looking at €22k nett of grants, trade in deposit, or "haggling". Would be a fine car at that.

I could be wrong but I'd say he is saying its that price before the €5k is taken off as the VRT is not a grant per-se. Its a tax relief.

There is only one grant and thats the SEAI one and thats €5k.

If I'm wrong, €22k is very good. I suppose it depends on spec as well as to whether its good or not.

unkel · 09-11-2016 11:45am

KCross wrote: »

That might simply be a case of that dealer having a stock of those rather than a case of 3.3kW no longer being available?

No it wasn't. I was talking about a 171 plated car a good few months ago. So still had to be manufactured. I could pick any colour, etc.

My guess is that the 6.6 kw option only costs Nissan pennies extra to manufacture compared to the 3.3 kw one, and it wouldn't be in their benefit if their cars will get the stigma of being slow chargers

highdef · 09-11-2016 11:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

and this always cracks me up " can it charge as it's driving ?"

Hilarious....as we all know that it certainly can and certainly does charge whilst driving.....everytime you take your foot off the accelerator whilst moving.

09-11-2016 11:47am

highdef wrote: »

Hilarious....as we all know that it certainly can and certainly does charge whilst driving.....everytime you take your foot off the accelerator whilst moving.

Yeah but that's not what they mean, they mean so you don't have to plug it in to charge it lol

Soarer · 09-11-2016 11:51am

KCross wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'd say he is saying its that price before the €5k is taken off as the VRT is not a grant per-se. Its a tax relief.

There is only one grant and thats the SEAI one and thats €5k.

If I'm wrong, €22k is very good. I suppose it depends on spec as well as to whether its good or not.

So the €32k would be pre the SEAI grant, but post VRT relief?

KCross · 09-11-2016 11:53am

unkel wrote: »

No it wasn't. I was talking about a 171 plated car a good few months ago. So still had to be manufactured. I could pick any colour, etc.

My guess is that the 6.6 kw option only costs Nissan pennies extra to manufacture compared to the 3.3 kw one, and it wouldn't be in their benefit if their cars will get the stigma of being slow chargers

Interesting.

What is also happening is that they are now bringing out a limited edition black leaf for 2017 (upto Aug 2017) with different alloys etc.
http://driveev.net/2016/11/08/nissan-reveals-stylish-leaf-black-edition/

This is a sure sign the current Leaf is at the end of its cycle so they will start giving the extras for free to shift the stock. Maybe Windsor are ahead of the game.

I'd say production for the 2018 model will be ramping up when they stop producing this limited edition next August.

Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

Comments