Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

growleaves · 29-01-2021 1:02am

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

William of Ockham (1287-1347) was a Franciscan who came up with the principle that the simplest explanation is more likely to be the right one.

If you lose your keys you don't need to assume that a time traveller or a member of the CIA stole them if the simplest explanation is that they fell out of your pocket the last time you sat down somewhere.

The same principle should be applied to any conspiracy theory. What is the simpler explanation? If the conspiracy theory is overly elaborate and a far simpler explanation fits then the latter is probably what really happened.

I disagree with William of Ockham's dictum and there's no reason why this or other specious "philosophical razors" should be taken as true. Reality doesn't work like that. Sometimes the simplest explanation is true, sometimes it isn't.

The phrase "stranger than fiction" covers those events which are simultaneously true and counter-intuitive.

Also your fundamental prior assumptions about human nature and the universe will influence what you believe constitutes the simplest explanation.

In our culture many people seem to find the idea of bad motives extraordinary and splutter when told that billionaires don't care about the common man, and demand conclusive evidence that PR press releases about selfless philanthropy work aren't the full story.

Recommend you read Niccolo Machiavelli's History of Florence which he wrote to try to educate a generation of Florentines out of political naivete.

Mellor · 29-01-2021 10:38am

growleaves wrote: »

I disagree with William of Ockham's dictum and there's no reason why this or other specious "philosophical razors" should be taken as true. Reality doesn't work like that. Sometimes the simplest explanation is true, sometimes it isn't.

Occam's razor doesn’t state that the simplest explanation is true. It’s states that the simplest one is more probably.

The stranger than fiction cases, are the rare exceptions to probability.

Also your fundamental prior assumptions about human nature and the universe will influence what you believe constitutes the simplest explanation.

Probability should pbased on facts, not assumptions.

In our culture many people seem to find the idea of bad motives extraordinary and splutter when told that billionaires don't care about the common man.

Do they?
I’d have said it was the opposite. The most vocal act like every billionaire is a secret comic book villain.

Samsonsmasher · 29-01-2021 11:06am

growleaves wrote: »

I disagree with William of Ockham's dictum and there's no reason why this or other specious "philosophical razors" should be taken as true. Reality doesn't work like that. Sometimes the simplest explanation is true, sometimes it isn't.

The phrase "stranger than fiction" covers those events which are simultaneously true and counter-intuitive.

Also your fundamental prior assumptions about human nature and the universe will influence what you believe constitutes the simplest explanation.

In our culture many people seem to find the idea of bad motives extraordinary and splutter when told that billionaires don't care about the common man, and demand conclusive evidence that PR press releases about selfless philanthropy work aren't the full story.

Recommend you read Niccolo Machiavelli's History of Florence which he wrote to try to educate a generation of Florentines out of political naivete.

What is more likely?

The world is run by human/alien lizard hybrid bloodlines who create fear and anxiety among the population and specifically take part in secret child sacrifice cannibalism and blood drinking so that the terror of their victims can be used as an energy source by interdimensional lizards.

OR

That the world is simply ruled by rich and wealthy people?

King Mob · 29-01-2021 11:30am

growleaves wrote: »

I disagree with William of Ockham's dictum and there's no reason why this or other specious "philosophical razors" should be taken as true. Reality doesn't work like that. Sometimes the simplest explanation is true, sometimes it isn't.

Which is more likely?
There was a secret government plot to plant secret experimental silent explosives in 3 populated buildings, then flew holographic planes into those buildings, only to have one of the people involved in the plot admit to it on camera on national TV.

Or...

Some youtube conspiracy theory videos are wrong?

growleaves · 29-01-2021 3:12pm

I'm not endorsing every conspiracy theory there is. I'm saying that I don't think likelihood as such comes into it. There is only what is true and what is not. Sometimes unlikely things are true. Your view of human nature (how corruptible it is) and the universe (is there purposive evil at work or do people only do bad things for a direct material benefit?) will also affect what you think may be 'likely'.

We know that the financial system is run in a way that is allowing the already-rich to consolidate wealth and power through asset inflation at the expense of ordinary workers, investors and small-to-medium enterprises.

I believe this is being done on purpose.

The World Economic Forum are now promoting 'co-living' (a fancy name for a return to tenements.) Even from a non-conspiracy angle it is clear that the governing class are managing a decline in the standard of living (the mainstream view is that this is accidental and unavoidable).

Please don't ask me why the people at the top of the system of politics and finance desire wealth and increased power or tell me that they don't. If you tell me that the wealthy and powerful don't desire wealth and power my response is that I don't believe you.

I favour debt forgiveness both for individuals and public debt as a solution. This would empower the common man and free up more capital for economic activity. Otherwise debt servicing will (in time) pauperise most ordinary people. Also this debt cancellation must be unconditional. There are many examples of this being done throughout history, including in 20th century Europe.

Note: When I finish reading The Great Reset I will start a non-conspiracy thread discussing it since even if the WEF are 100% innocent of any sinister motive they are still promoting an insipid vision of life and deserve a lot of criticism for it imo.

Dohnjoe · 29-01-2021 3:16pm

growleaves wrote: »

I believe this is being done on purpose.

The World Economic Forum are now promoting 'co-living' (a fancy name for a return to tenements.) Even from a non-conspiracy angle it is clear that the governing class are managing a decline in the standard of living (the mainstream view is that this is accidental and unavoidable).

Source for this? I believe this has been discussed here and it's based on one speculative opinion piece written by a Danish person that was retweeted by the WEF.

growleaves · 29-01-2021 3:25pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Source for this? I believe this has been discussed here and it's based on one speculative opinion piece written by a Danish person that was retweeted by the WEF.

I'm not talking about that Danish person's 'thought-piece' which imagined that people would "own nothing" and be unable to stop complete strangers from entering their dwelling.

I'm referencing the WEF's promotion of co-living in general (source: WEF web site). It has also been promoted by the Irish government and strongly criticised by Sinn Fein, who I believe want to outlaw it.

In this case I'm saying that ordinary inflation and a decline in living standards (from single-family homes to 'shared' homes - who wants their children to live with adult strangers? not me) are a huge problem, with or without the conspiracy angle that it has all been arranged on purpose.

The 'solutions' arising from the last decade's debt crisis are the proximate cause, I believe. But that may be a discussion for a different forum.

Dohnjoe · 29-01-2021 3:29pm

growleaves wrote: »

I'm not talking about that Danish person's 'thought-piece' which imagined that people would "own nothing" and be unable to stop complete strangers from entering their dwelling.

I'm referencing the WEF's promotion of co-living in general (source: WEF web site). It has also been promoted by the Irish government and strongly criticised by Sinn Fein, who I believe want to outlaw it.

Sure, can you provide the link and the text for this?

The WEF is just an economic discussion forum. It's not legislative and doesn't have any powers.

In this case I'm saying that ordinary inflation and a decline in living standards (from single-family homes to 'shared' homes - who wants their children to live with adult strangers? not me) are a huge problem, with or without the conspiracy angle that it has all been arranged on purpose.

There is no "plan" or "arrangement" for any of this. If some economist writes about some idea of e.g. people living in trees, it doesn't mean we are all going to be living in trees.

growleaves · 29-01-2021 3:37pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Sure, can you provide the link and the text for this?

The WEF is just an economic discussion forum. It's not legislative and doesn't have any powers.

I'll dig the link out later and start a new discussion in Current Affairs when I've finished the Schwab book.

Yes its only a discussion forum but the members are often legislators (Merkel etc.) and they have immense influence and do a lot of promotion. I believe ordinary people have influence too which is why I would hate to see *all* criticism of the WEF diverted to conspiracy discussions (even though I myself am open to conspiracy theories) since they will potentially escape a lot of scrutiny that way.

King Mob · 29-01-2021 3:39pm

growleaves wrote: »

I'm not talking about that Danish person's 'thought-piece' which imagined that people would "own nothing" and be unable to stop complete strangers from entering their dwelling.

I'm referencing the WEF's promotion of co-living in general (source: WEF web site). It has also been promoted by the Irish government and strongly criticised by Sinn Fein, who I believe want to outlaw it.
.

So to clarify, you agree that the WEF does not plan on abolishing ownership around the world?
Cause this was the main claim of the previous conspiracy theories surrounding these guys.

That, along with the notion they were going to turn everyone into cyborgs.

Dohnjoe · 29-01-2021 4:00pm

growleaves wrote: »

I'll dig the link out later and start a new discussion in Current Affairs when I've finished the Schwab book.

Thanks. 99% of the time the WEF and Bill Gates are brought up on this forum, they are misinterpreted.

realdanbreen · 29-01-2021 4:51pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What's the Paul Is Dead thing?

Ssshh! have a bit of respect...the man is dead R.I.P.:cool:

McGinniesta · 31-01-2021 11:27am

Conspiracies exist.

Whether one chooses to believe in the more "out there" conspiracies is one thing but conspiracies certainly exist in everyday life.

Mellor · 31-01-2021 1:32pm

McGinniesta wrote: »

Conspiracies exist.

Whether one chooses to believe in the more "out there" conspiracies is one thing but conspiracies certainly exist in everyday life.

Conspiracy and conspiracy theory are not the same thing.

ShatterAlan · 31-01-2021 1:34pm

growleaves wrote: »

I'll dig the link out later and start a new discussion in Current Affairs when I've finished the Schwab book.

Yes its only a discussion forum but the members are often legislators (Merkel etc.) and they have immense influence and do a lot of promotion. I believe ordinary people have influence too which is why I would hate to see *all* criticism of the WEF diverted to conspiracy discussions (even though I myself am open to conspiracy theories) since they will potentially escape a lot of scrutiny that way.

Let the guy find the link himself. I asked him before to provide details for one of his many claims and his snotty response was "try googling it" and here he is, every second post from him is "Source?", "Link?"

Dohnjoe · 31-01-2021 1:51pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Let the guy find the link himself. I asked him before to provide details for one of his many claims and his snotty response was "try googling it" and here he is, every second post from him is "Source?", "Link?"

You repeatedly ask questions about generic information that can be found anywhere, for example basic information about Covid.

This scenario is very different. It's a specific quote from a specific piece. I'm not a mindreader, therefore I am simply asking for source.

ShatterAlan · 31-01-2021 3:35pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You repeatedly ask questions about generic information that can be found anywhere, for example basic information about Covid.

This scenario is very different. It's a specific quote from a specific piece. I'm not a mindreader, therefore I am simply asking for source.

Bullshit. Every post that states practically anything and you're typing "Source?" before you're halfway through reading it.

When provided with sources you either ignore them or ridicule them. You never once come back and say "Ok, that's interesting, I'll investigate that a bit more at some point".

You don't debate in good faith. You're certainly not open or even respectful or interested in other opinions and viewpoints. To you this is all merely a point-scoring exercise, a game.

King Mob · 31-01-2021 3:49pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Bullshit. Every post that states practically anything and you're typing "Source?" before you're halfway through reading it.

When provided with sources you either ignore them or ridicule them. You never once come back and say "Ok, that's interesting, I'll investigate that a bit more at some point".

You don't debate in good faith. You're certainly not open or even respectful or interested in other opinions and viewpoints. To you this is all merely a point-scoring exercise, a game.

But what if your sources are bad and your arguments are bad and you are actually wrong?

The amount of projection in this post is pretty astonishing...

Dohnjoe · 31-01-2021 4:03pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Bullshit. Every post that states practically anything and you're typing "Source?" before you're halfway through reading it.

These are just personal rants and ravings.

Moving back to the subject, for some reason conspiracy theorists have decided to go hammer and tongs at the WEF (they seem to be bored with Bill Gates) and as such we're getting all these interpretations and misunderstandings of almost anything related to the WEF.

"They want global surveillance!!!" - No, they wanted better global surveillance of the disease

"They plan to make us to live together" - No, that's a misinterpretation

"They want to reset everything" - No, that's just a catchy name

and so on

31-01-2021 7:16pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Source for this? I believe this has been discussed here and it's based on one speculative opinion piece written by a Danish person that was retweeted by the WEF.

It was on their website if I recall, as an editorial position. There may be an argument for co-living when people are younger but the idea of "owning nothing" doesn't really appeal to most. And in any case the rich will probably still own stuff. There is no conspiracy in that though, since conspiracies are generally regarded to be hidden not published. The is the WEF, or some member's opinion, not a conspiracy.

It's unfortunate that some groups are using the term Great Reset unironicaly.

31-01-2021 7:17pm

By the way this thread, which I would like to contribute to, has far too much 9/11 gruff. There is a 9/11 sub forum, no less, with multiple threads and yet it appears here.

Fighting Tao · 31-01-2021 7:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

By the way this thread, which I would like to contribute to, has far too much 9/11 gruff. There is a 9/11 sub forum, no less, with multiple threads and yet it appears here.

That because the people questioning it know that their nonsense has been debunked in the subforum. They see this as a new outlet.

Dohnjoe · 31-01-2021 7:35pm

For the WEF stuff

This appears to be one of the "co-living" editorials, it's an idea for e.g. students.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/co-living-answer-affordable-housing-crisis/

This is the 2016 opinion piece about "owning nothing" which in the meantime conspiracy theorists have gone nuts about prompting the author to add a disclaimer
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/how-life-could-change-2030/

Neither of which point to any conspiracy.

Trigger · 31-01-2021 7:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

By the way this thread, which I would like to contribute to, has far too much 9/11 gruff. There is a 9/11 sub forum, no less, with multiple threads and yet it appears here.

Mod: i agree, so let's move on and and if posters wish to discuss 9/11 conspiricy theories, they are more than welcome to do so in its dedicated forum

BettyS · 31-01-2021 8:42pm

Is it just me or has anybody else seen a picture of Ghislaine Maxwell since she was arrested?

01-02-2021 12:04am

BettyS wrote: »

Is it just me or has anybody else seen a picture of Ghislaine Maxwell since she was arrested?

Now that is a conspiracy theory I can get behind. Not that all of the US legal system was trying to get Epstein off, or Ghislaine, there's clearly a lot of police who went after Epstein only to see the cases dropped. And now with Ghislaine Maxwell there is a effort to bring her to book. But I don't think we will get much out of her. Some kind of sweetheart deal will happen. Again.

ShatterAlan · 01-02-2021 1:23am

I guess this thread has been sapped like a bubblegum balloon near a candle.

Dohnjoe · 05-02-2021 10:27am

Surprise, surprise, Marjorie Greene, the Republican congresswoman has just admitted the conspiracies she promoted were all false. Sandy hook, 9/11 and Qanon. She's still been kicked off the education and budget panels.

ShatterAlan · 09-02-2021 9:27am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Surprise, surprise, Marjorie Greene, the Republican congresswoman has just admitted the conspiracies she promoted were all false. Sandy hook, 9/11 and Qanon. She's still been kicked off the education and budget panels.

That would have made her a little bit crazy anyway, no? Unless of course she is a distraction. She sounds a tad unhinged but having said that it's always good to have a nutcase to link to people who might have a healthy skepticism.

ShatterAlan · 09-02-2021 9:27am

I've often wondered about Paul Wellstone and his death.

King Mob · 09-02-2021 11:00am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

That would have made her a little bit crazy anyway, no? Unless of course she is a distraction. She sounds a tad unhinged but having said that it's always good to have a nutcase to link to people who might have a healthy skepticism.

Or maybe she's a genuine believer?
But this makes you uncomfortable because it exposes a lot of the issues with your own belief system. Thus it's more comfortable for you to invent a conspiracy about her rather than face reality.

The Nal · 31-03-2021 12:02pm

Gordon Liddy, the Watergate "mastermind" died, 90 years of age.

Theres a conspiracy. The act and especially the cover up.

Rather amusingly Liddy drove a Rolls Royce with H20GATE as the reg.

partyguinness · 01-04-2021 10:55am

BettyS wrote: »

Is it just me or has anybody else seen a picture of Ghislaine Maxwell since she was arrested?

I was under the impresison she was in jail and her court "appearances" are via videolink. Opportunities for photos on the way to Court are zero. Anyway there are courtroom sketches of her from the video links.

What's your point?

ShatterAlan · 18-04-2021 3:57am

Here's one

That Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea against the will of the majority of Crimeans. And that the Crimeans are just yearning to return to Ukrainian rule directly from Kiev. That Crimea is now crushed under the Russian jackboot :pac:.

Doesn't look like it to me:

crimea2.jpg

crimea1.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEGUTxM_jlk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqCQmRCHZc

Optimalprimerib · 18-04-2021 5:13am

Would Santa claus count as a credible conspiracy? Kids genuinely believing in his existence and all adults playing along spending a fortune on toys etc as he is magic and will get you what you want if you are good.

Fighting Tao · 18-04-2021 7:13am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Here's one

That Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea against the will of the majority of Crimeans. And that the Crimeans are just yearning to return to Ukrainian rule directly from Kiev. That Crimea is now crushed under the Russian jackboot :pac:.

Doesn't look like it to me:

crimea2.jpg

crimea1.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEGUTxM_jlk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqCQmRCHZc

Yes, the Ukrainian Crimeans that were chased out do yearn to have as part of Ukraine. The Russian Crimeans don’t. Just like nationalists want Northern Ireland to be reunited with the Republic of Ireland, while unionists want it to remain part of the UK. Not sure what you think the conspiracy is.

I watch a few minutes of that guys video. He bangs on about the bbc being wrong about 95% but provides no evidence himself. He follows school kids sounds claiming that the bbc said there was no school, but it was a tangent from his previous argument that he failed to back up. Very like conspiracy theorists here. Why is he shouting too? It doesn’t make him more right.

Dohnjoe · 18-04-2021 5:49pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Here's one

That Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea against the will of the majority of Crimeans.

The Russians annexed Crimea. Whether or not Crimeans supported it, they really had no choice in the matter.

ShatterAlan · 19-04-2021 12:47am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The Russians annexed Crimea. Whether or not Crimeans supported it, they really had no choice in the matter.

Do you see a resistance movement in Crimea to Russian "occupation"?

I don't. Would you like to know why? Because there isn't one. The only people who think that Crimea is annexed and occupied against their will by Russia is YOU.

Are you aware that the Crimeans requested a referendum to break from Ukraine and return to Russia in 1991/2? Probably not.

Crimea is Russian and always has been. You say they had no choice in being returned to Russia from rule in Kiev. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just making it up as you go along.

The Crimeans are Russians and they have NEVER wanted to be part of Ukraine. But keep telling yourself that they were "invaded" and gobbled up against their will and that they're all running away and trying to become part of Ukraine again.

Have some dignity, man.

ShatterAlan · 19-04-2021 1:02am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Yes, the Ukrainian Crimeans that were chased out do yearn to have as part of Ukraine. The Russian Crimeans don’t. Just like nationalists want Northern Ireland to be reunited with the Republic of Ireland, while unionists want it to remain part of the UK. Not sure what you think the conspiracy is.

I watch a few minutes of that guys video. He bangs on about the bbc being wrong about 95% but provides no evidence himself. He follows school kids sounds claiming that the bbc said there was no school, but it was a tangent from his previous argument that he failed to back up. Very like conspiracy theorists here. Why is he shouting too? It doesn’t make him more right.

Well, do you see a resistance movement in Crimea? You talk about people being run out. Where are they? Do you see Ukrainians funneling arms and money to these anti-Moscow forces? I don't. Where are the riots, the demonstrations against Russian "occupation"? Again, do you see them? I don't and I don't hear anyone from the Crimea that I know saying anything about it either.

Hear's how it goes. Crimea was a Russian province for centuries. It was gifted by Khruschev in the 1950's to Ukraine with NO REFERENDUM or question levelled to the people. But under the Soviet Union that didn't really change things much. With the break up of the USSR in 1991 the Crimeans insisted that they become once again a part of Russia. This was denied until recent events caused Ukraine to be pulled westwards and the trick was to snatch Sevastapol and leave Russia with no access to the Black Sea. You don't like how it all worked out because it didn't go the way you wanted. Checkmated and now crying about being outfoxed.

SO....the best you can do is bitch about annexations this and invasions that. It's like a big goon in the ring puffing up his chest and then getting uppercut by the underdog, knocked out and then going screaming to the judges because "that's not how things were supposed to happen."

:pac:

Fighting Tao · 19-04-2021 7:12am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Well, do you see a resistance movement in Crimea? You talk about people being run out. Where are they? Do you see Ukrainians funneling arms and money to these anti-Moscow forces? I don't. Where are the riots, the demonstrations against Russian "occupation"? Again, do you see them? I don't and I don't hear anyone from the Crimea that I know saying anything about it either.

They are no longer there. They were “run out” to Ukraine. They have no one to funnel arms to. Is that really confusing to you?

Dohnjoe · 19-04-2021 10:00am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Do you see a resistance movement in Crimea to Russian "occupation"?

I don't. Would you like to know why? Because there isn't one. The only people who think that Crimea is annexed and occupied against their will by Russia is YOU.

Russia broke international treaties and used their military to annex Crimea. A portion of the Crimean population supported this, a portion didn't, either way they had no choice.

Crimea is Russian and always has been. You say they had no choice in being returned to Russia from rule in Kiev. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just making it up as you go along.

False, I strongly suggest familiarising yourself with the history of Crimea. Likewise, nationalist Russians also view that sovereign Ukraine is also a part of Russia, and we see what's happening there.

Hoop66 · 20-04-2021 11:02pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Have some dignity, man.

lol

ShatterAlan · 04-05-2021 12:04am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Russia broke international treaties and used their military to annex Crimea. A portion of the Crimean population supported this, a portion didn't, either way they had no choice.

False, I strongly suggest familiarising yourself with the history of Crimea. Likewise, nationalist Russians also view that sovereign Ukraine is also a part of Russia, and we see what's happening there.

What international treaties?

Crimea was given away under Khurschev without a vote and against the wishes of the Crimeans.

With the dissolution of the Soviet Union the Crimea requested, in fact begged, to be returned to Russia. This is not a secret. Crimea was part of Russia for 200 years. It was gifted to Ukraine for 50 years without a vote of the citizens. And when the Crimeans finally were returned to Russia you call it "an invasion".

Check out the referenda in the 1990s in Crimea whereby they wanted to be part of Russia again. This is a people BEGGING to not be a Ukrainian province but to return to Russia. And you call it an "invasion".

Do you see any resistance to Russian "illegal" occupation of a territory that has been Russian for centuries and whose people insisted, no demanded, no begged, to become part or their country again?

I see resistance to foreign occupation all over the world and have seen it. Northern Ireland, Vietnam, Libya, Algeria, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Honduras, El Salvador, Czechoslovakia,, The Netherlands, Poland, Norway, Greece, Cyprus, Laos.....at infinitum.

In all these countries there has been resistance to foreign invasion and occupation.

Not a rock, bottle or petrolbomb in Crimea against Russian occupation. not even a bit of graffiti. Not a single movement beseeching the international community to come and and help and save them from hell.

In 1991 Crimea voted by 92% to break from Ukraine. You call this an invasion?

NATO didn't snatch Sevastapol under the cover of a collapsed Ukraine sh1thouse government. It didn't go according to plan and now it's just called "not cricket" and "oh so unfair" by the terrible reds.

ShatterAlan · 04-05-2021 12:51am

Terry Norman, a paid government operative was assisted by police to help facilitate the Kent State killings.

ShatterAlan · 04-05-2021 12:54am

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I've never come across a conspiracy theory that I thought could actually be true. It seems that when you delve into one, it doesn't take long to see if it usually based on questionable logic.

Admittedly, I've never delved into any conspiracy with great detail, as I found it difficult to decipher the facts from some wack jobs take on things.

Are they are that actually hold-up if you take a closer look?

Terry Norman, a paid FBI informant, was sent in and protected by Ohio police and opened fire bringing on the Kent State Massacre.

Dohnjoe · 04-05-2021 1:00am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What international treaties?

1991 Belavezha Accords
1975 Helsinki Accords
1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
1997 Treaty on friendship, cooperation and partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine

The Russians sent in military units posing as "local militia", took over key facilities and within 3 weeks held a "referendum". You can argue all you want about whether or not the Crimeans wanted to join Russia, but they had no choice whatsoever. It was annexed.

And what's the conspiracy angle?

ShatterAlan · 05-05-2021 9:01pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

1991 Belavezha Accords
1975 Helsinki Accords
1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
1997 Treaty on friendship, cooperation and partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine

The Russians sent in military units posing as "local militia", took over key facilities and within 3 weeks held a "referendum". You can argue all you want about whether or not the Crimeans wanted to join Russia, but they had no choice whatsoever. It was annexed.

And what's the conspiracy angle?

1991 Belavezha Accords
A tripartite farce that had no international recognition.

1975 Helsinki Accords
Another handshake and nod with ZERO legal binding nor international recognition. Even if it did have some kind of judicial weight it dates back to 1975. Article 3 of the Irish Constitution dates back further yet was scrapped in 1998. During the interim period when British Security forces were found to have crossed the border into places like Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, etc either by mistaken logistics, stupidity or for other more nefarious reasons, was the British Government in breach of the Geneva Protocols?

1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
Another farce. What obligation did Russia have to resist the request for people of Ukraine to be returned to their homeland that was illegally given away. I'll give you a tiny hint since you are so concerned about not only the rule of international LAW but also territorial respect, recognition and integrity. If you are so up-in-arms about Russia reclaiming the Crimean Peninsula after a referendum then you must be equally up-in-arms about Israel annexing the West Bank and what with scores of UN sanctions against them then you might concur on those grounds regarding International Law and various treaties. Or is that again an exercise in "whataboutery"?

1997 Treaty on friendship, cooperation and partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine

Again you make a schoolboy HOWLER in citing this memo of understanding. It was an agreement to respect the borders of one another's countries. Except, what seems lost on you and your head is going around in a loop because you can't accept it. Russia didn't violate or even invade Ukraine. The Crimea voted to secede. And return after 50 years of Kiev governance to Russia where she was for centuries a part.

So please tell me you have someting better than these useless "facts" and "violations".

Dohnjoe · 05-05-2021 9:15pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Russia didn't violate or even invade Ukraine.

Russia indirectly invaded the Eastern part of Ukraine by heavily supporting an "uprising" in Donetsk. It's where many Russian soldiers went on "holiday" that year.

If you are referring to Crimea, it was annexed by Russia, which is why most countries don't recognise Crimea as Russian territory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea

Again, is there a conspiracy angle to any of this?

05-05-2021 9:43pm

Coronavirus introduced in china to "ease" its pension burden as the gemerations who were limited to 1 child getting old now....

but they lost control of it and fcuked up

ShatterAlan · 05-05-2021 9:49pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Yes, the Ukrainian Crimeans that were chased out do yearn to have as part of Ukraine. The Russian Crimeans don’t. Just like nationalists want Northern Ireland to be reunited with the Republic of Ireland, while unionists want it to remain part of the UK. Not sure what you think the conspiracy is.

I watch a few minutes of that guys video. He bangs on about the bbc being wrong about 95% but provides no evidence himself. He follows school kids sounds claiming that the bbc said there was no school, but it was a tangent from his previous argument that he failed to back up. Very like conspiracy theorists here. Why is he shouting too? It doesn’t make him more right.

Really?

So how many Crimeans wanted to secede from Ukraine and return to Russia? Was it a majority?
Is that not the definition of democracy or is it just pluralism or mob rule or some other epithet?

And I'm not tabling any conspiracy here. Rather I'm trying to counter one, i.e. that you are trying to sell the inane idea that Russia invaded and gobbled up Crimea the same way that Adolf just decided that the Sudetenland or any other place he wanted was for Deutschland.

Again, I'm sure the Godwin's Law crew will chime in, but that's their bag.

DJ comes up with these meaningless "treaties" about border integrity and the respect under law for boundaries. Must be having apoplexy over the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars then if that's so sacrosanct. A bunch of mythical "little green men" in Crimea is a "cause celebre" for rallying yet a NATO army wrecking the richest country in Africa is grand, all under the moronic pretense that the leader gives his men Viagra to rape people.

Bashar Assad is supposed to be gassing his people. Even though US Special Forces are robbing the oil from the North East of the country and shipping it to Malta.

The Saudis chop up a guy in Turkey under the connivance of one of their despicable princes/kings to shut him the fcuk up yet you weep for Navalny who I would think is getting a better deal.

So, there has not been any invasion of Ukraine. There are no Russian bombers about to land in Shannon. Red October is not off the coast of Copenhagen or Aberdeen or Killybegs about to force us all to eat borscht, though not a bad soup.

Russian invasion.....COP ON!

Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

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