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Tenants made multiple changes to the property

1356

Comments

  • #102
    blue_blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭blue_blue


    Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

    Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.


  • #103
    skallywag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭skallywag


    blue_blue wrote: »
    Yeah, get regular check ups on the improvements they been doing to your property OP.

    I really think that a lot of people are missing the main point of this thread.

    The issue is not with the improvements themselves, which all in all may of course be a good thing. The issue is that these changes were made without first informing the owner.

    You simply cannot make such changes without first informing the owner. This is not just an Irish thing, it's also the case in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc ...


  • #104
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    blue_blue wrote: »
    Yeah, get regular check ups on the improvements they been doing to your property OP.

    they are changes. they are improvements if I like them. period.
    blue_blue wrote: »
    Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

    Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.

    ya, very tight indeed. I loved to freeze during the winter...
    skallywag wrote: »
    I really think that a lot of people are missing the main point of this thread.

    The issue is not with the improvements themselves, which all in all may of course be a good thing. The issue is that these changes were made without first informing the owner.

    You simply cannot make such changes without first informing the owner. This is not just an Irish thing, it's also the case in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc ...

    indeed. want to see if the same was happening to them, in their own houses.


  • #105
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    blue_blue wrote:
    Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

    blue_blue wrote:
    Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.


    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that your comments hold any truth.

    OP seems to be a decent landlord. He could easily evict the tenant for breaking the lease in a dozen different ways. Op also has stated that he is not even charging full rent though this could come back to bite him in the arse further down the road.

    The concerns op has raised are genuine concerns and not nit picking at tiny issues.


  • #106
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,305 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house, but they are not making changes easy to revert back to the original situation.
    Consider that when they do, it'll be done quickly and cheaply, leaving you with issues.
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - landscapes the garden
    If they take what they consider "theirs", your garden may suddenly look very barren and ill kept.
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - added a tap in the garden making a hole through the wall
    If taken out, will they also take the connection to the mains as well? Could cause an issue if taken. Also, if the hole wasn't sealed correctly, and the pipes freeze & cause leaks during the winter; will the tenant be expecting the OP to fix the issue that the tenant created?
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - added a wooden stove in the sitting room
    What was there beforehand? And check the ceiling; is it any blacker? Is it installed correctly? Also check if your insurance allows it, and if so, does it need to be installed by someone certified?
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - changed the main door keys
    If they give you a copy, grand. Personally, I'd changed the deadbolt when I moved into the last place (in Toronto), as the previous tenant was a crackhead who got evicted after not paying rent for 6 months.
    The landlord was happy I had done so, and refunded me the money spent when I gave her the new key.

    Got a text 3 months later stating that he couldn't access the apartment (as no-one was home at 11am on a weekday), as he needed to get kitchen appliances (LoL?) that he claimed to own. Ignored said texts.
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - painted the walls
    Annoying, but how awful is the colour?
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    - changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven
    What happened to the old ones? Do they still have them? Have they sold them? When they move out, and they take them with them, you'll have to shell out cash for replacement units.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why anyone would want to get rid of tenants who treat the house like their own home & make improvements is beyond me!
    If they decide to take anything they bought with them when they leave, the OP will be left with a destroyed house.
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house
    OmegaGene wrote: »
    cost you a small fortune in lost rent etc
    To reiterate this point; it may cost the OP a small fortune when they do move out, if they take everything they bought with them.

    =-=

    OP; ask if they've kept the old white goods. If they have, great. If not, and they intend to bring what they bought with them when they leave, get legal advice and consider eviction before the 6 months, as you may find yourself with a very bare house when they do leave.


  • #107
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    seamus wrote: »
    "My tenant has poured thousands of euro and hours of his time into professionally upgrading my property, what do I do?"

    "Demand that he remove it all and put it back the way he was, then evict him!"

    Granted that was only one or two posters, but fncking hell.

    There is a huge difference between a person who does good looking work to your property and a person who does good work to your property. Most people find that out the hard way.

    I'd get a proper chimney sweep out for the fire to begin with. Most good ones won't touch a badly installed unit for insurance reasons.


  • #108
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Beats them wrecking the place but they should definitely ask first.

    We also have a tenant who has made a lot of improvements but did ask first. We don't charge market rent though as she's a good tenant with a family.

    I'd have a polite word with your tenants about agreeing renovations in advance with you unless it's just painting and whatnot.

    The key thing isn't a biggy imo. You're not supposed to be going around there without prior arrangement with them anyway. As for the security implications, they could easily cut spare keys for the locks anyway so you should change the locks if tenants change no matter what.


  • #109
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    It kinda feels like many dont have a clue how easy it is to put an outside tap on. With minimal fuss. Its not a big deal any average basic Diyer could do that let alone a Builder.

    This thread seems alot of fuss over nothing. Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

    But frankly going solely on the OPs post they would have to degrade the condition to do so.

    These tenants sound great because they have respect for and want to improve the place.

    and NO that doesnt meant they have an ownership claim on it. Thats ridiculous.


  • #110
    skallywag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭skallywag


    listermint wrote: »
    Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

    That's completely wrong.

    It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

    I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?


  • #111
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    they are changes. they are improvements if I like them. period.
    You don't live there though, so you don't have to like them :)
    If they increase the value of the property, then they are improvements.
    indeed. want to see if the same was happening to them, in their own houses.
    You should avoid taking it personally. This is a business transaction. The renter should do the property owner the respect of asking him, but don't take personal offence to the fact that the tenant is modifying his home to his personal taste.


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  • #112
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    skallywag wrote: »
    That's completely wrong.

    It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

    I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?

    People in here seem to fond of evoking The Continent (™) as a panacea to all the accommodation woes that ever there was and absolves one from basic manners when dealing with your Evil Landlord.


  • #113
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    skallywag wrote: »
    That's completely wrong.

    It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

    I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?

    Yes and Yes,

    We have a disfunctional market where for example a Tenant looking for a 5 year lease would be seen as an utter lunatic. :rolleyes:


  • #114
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    andekwarhola wrote: »
    People in here seem to fond of evoking The Continent (™) as a panacea to all the accommodation woes that ever there was and absolves one from basic manners when dealing with your Evil Landlord.

    There are evil landlords, then there are just plain silly ones.

    There are also ones that recognise that making such changes doesnt make the property convert to ownership of the tenant.

    Which as i already stated is ludicrous.


  • #115
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    OP if they are saying they will fix and make good anything they have changed there is a simple solution. You increase their deposit to pay for a professional to do it and retain it if they don't.

    Nobody can complain that you inact a form of insurance. Your white goods being left in storage has a good possibility of being damaged so you need to cover them too.

    What they have done is exceptional


  • #116
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Ray Palmer wrote:
    OP if they are saying they will fix and make good anything they have changed there is a simple solution. You increase their deposit to pay for a professional to do it and retain it if they don't.


    This will break the lease and landlord could end up in trouble.

    OP already said that it's reduced rent. This most likely means that he has a reduced deposit.

    Any landlord not wanting to change the market value should be getting 3 months deposit at least. imo


  • #117
    Garibaldi?
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    I cannot understand people thinking it's ok for anybody to make changes to cooking equipment without first consulting the house owner.This is a Health and Safety issue. The painting etc is just cosmetic and, if the worst came to the worst, a landlord without a key would be justified in forcing entry if there were a fire or some other emergency. But the stove!


  • #118
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Garibaldi? wrote:
    I cannot understand people thinking it's ok for anybody to make changes to cooking equipment without first consulting the house owner.This is a Health and Safety issue. The painting etc is just cosmetic and, if the worst came to the worst, a landlord without a key would be justified in forcing entry if there were a fire or some other emergency. But the stove!


    Carbon monoxide would be my greatest fear if not done correctly.


  • #119
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    BoneIdol wrote: »
    Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

    The joker has landed


  • #120
    boege
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 469 ✭✭boege


    Surprised how so few posts have mentioned the letting agreement. Both parties sign it which means they agree to abide by the terms contained therein.

    If the OP has a letting agreement them maybe he should read it. They normally contain tenant covenants. There are also landlord covenants. If either side breaks these covenants then they are technically breaching the agreement.

    Its pretty standard in letting agreements not to change locks, at all. Its also pretty standard that alternations are also not allowed, at all.

    If the OP has not used a letting agreement then maybe he should have one because clearly the two sides have different views about the letting.


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  • #121
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    boege wrote:
    Its pretty standard in letting agreements not to change locks, at all. Its also pretty standard that alternations are also not allowed, at all.


    I think every one can agree that it's in just about every lease that permission is required for alterations.

    Many landlords love foreign tenants. Particularly tenants from the likes of Poland. A lot of these don't bother the landlord at all. Sounds wonderful but the downside is that he's making repairs himself. That's fine for the little things but if come across some working on the fusebox and gas boiler. This can be very dangerous.


  • #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If we want to encourage long term renting we should move to the system in other european countries where the landlord basically rents just the four walls.
    The tenant is reponsible for furnishing it and dealing with all normal repairs etc. At the end of the rental period the tenant ensures that the house is returned in the condition they received it, repainting if necessary.
    For the landlord, he gets his rent with no hassle, no wear and tear, no repairs to washing machines etc and being a landlord is just like holding any other investment.
    For the tenant they get a house that they can furnish as they like using their own furniture and can genuinely feel that its a long term home.
    This would encourage more people to rent as most of the hassle, and increased costs, comes not from the house, but the furnishings, equipment and maintenance.


  • #123
    boege
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 469 ✭✭boege


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I think every one can agree that it's in just about every lease that permission is required for alterations.


    I have yet to see a lease where alternations to a premises are allowed, even subject to permission. Even removal of plants and shrubs is usually forbidden.

    About all I have ever seen allowed is redecoration, subject to approval.


  • #124
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    listermint wrote: »
    It kinda feels like many dont have a clue how easy it is to put an outside tap on. With minimal fuss. Its not a big deal any average basic Diyer could do that let alone a Builder.

    This thread seems alot of fuss over nothing. Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

    But frankly going solely on the OPs post they would have to degrade the condition to do so.

    These tenants sound great because they have respect for and want to improve the place.

    and NO that doesnt meant they have an ownership claim on it. Thats ridiculous.

    Putting in a tap is trivial, in a basic mechanical sense, with no consideration for the potential risks.

    Burst pipes are the most obvious risk, bringing a pipe outside the fabric of the house greatly increases the risk of freezing and bursting. I'm open to correction from the OP but I'll hazard a guess the tap is right outside the kitchen window, the water will freeze from the outside in and no doubt the burst will happen just inside the wall. Who picks up the bill on a freezing cold morning when the kitchen is flooded? Outside taps should always have an Isolation valve inside the house which should be closed in cold spells with the outside tap left open. Did the tenant do this?

    If the tap is taken from the mains feed and is rarely/never used, the line to the tap becomes a 'dead leg' in the system and can be a breading ground for bacteria in the potable water supply for the house. It may not be the current tenants who suffer this issue, but again, who's responsible?

    As you say, it's very easy to install an outside tap, the risks and consequences aren't always as easily identifiable. Someone else mentioned earlier about the difference between a good job and a job that looks good.


  • #125
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    listermint wrote: »
    It kinda feels like many dont have a clue how easy it is to put an outside tap on. With minimal fuss. Its not a big deal any average basic Diyer could do that let alone a Builder.

    That's not the point. Regardless of whether they are a qualified builder or some idiot with a masonry drill bit who watched a youtube video on how to SDS drill through a wall and fit a tap badly is not the issue. Its that they did it without permission. The property is not theirs to fúck with.
    listermint wrote: »
    This thread seems alot of fuss over nothing. Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

    Your not in Kansas now Toto. Do you actually own a property yourself Mr whats all the fuss guy ?

    There is nothing normal about interfering with the structure of someone else's property even if qualified and even on "the continent".
    listermint wrote: »
    These tenants sound great because they have respect for and want to improve the place.
    The tenants do not sound great. They sound like they think they bought the house and that its theirs to do with as they please.

    There are serious implications for landlords in allowing unqualified work in ones property. Health, Fire, Safety, Insurance, Asset Depreciation, money loss.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The beholder is the property owner not the tenant.

    Builder and a plumber eh... Have a word OP. By the way they are never leaving. They think it's theirs already....


  • #126
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If we want to encourage long term renting we should move to the system in other european countries where the landlord basically rents just the four walls.
    The tenant is reponsible for furnishing it and dealing with all normal repairs etc. At the end of the rental period the tenant ensures that the house is returned in the condition they received it, repainting if necessary.
    For the landlord, he gets his rent with no hassle, no wear and tear, no repairs to washing machines etc and being a landlord is just like holding any other investment.
    For the tenant they get a house that they can furnish as they like using their own furniture and can genuinely feel that its a long term home.
    This would encourage more people to rent as most of the hassle, and increased costs, comes not from the house, but the furnishings, equipment and maintenance.

    That would be my idea indeed. The problem is that the law at the moment sees it differently.
    If I won't be bothered if something happens and all responsibilities are of the tenants if he/she makes changes, then I won't be worried of what's happening in my property.


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  • #127
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    STB. wrote: »
    Builder and a plumber eh... Have a word OP. By the way they are never leaving. They think it's theirs already....

    What happens if I sell the property? I think they should leave sooner or later, shouldn't they?


  • #128
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    Is it possible to check if those people have had any enforcement to leave the previous house? maybe at the court?


  • #129
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    What happens if I sell the property? I think they should leave sooner or later, shouldn't they?

    You would have to give them notice that you are selling.

    Whether they move or not is up to your gut instinct. There are two ends of the scale. Having tenants who are genuinely enthusiastic and or/houseproud and those that live like animals/ cause you grief by not paying rent etc. You seem to be at one extreme which is over enthusiastic.

    You JUST need to lay down the law about upgrading of the property without your say so. Like the central heating. Didn't you mention that this guy has installed a stove ??? That's a definite No No. If that house goes on fire you are rightly fecked. The first thing the insurance company will look for is the installers cert which you don't have.

    You have concerns about the compliance of the work done and it has implications for your house insurance. Also drilling holes and plumbing tabs is a no no regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not.

    You need to explain that whilst you know they are well meaning, they need to consult with you first.


  • #130
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Tenants like that who have no respect for a contract have no respect for you as landlord or the property. I would be rid of them as soon as possible.


  • #131
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    listermint wrote: »
    It kinda feels like many dont have a clue how easy it is to put an outside tap on. With minimal fuss. Its not a big deal any average basic Diyer could do that let alone a Builder.

    This thread seems alot of fuss over nothing. Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

    But frankly going solely on the OPs post they would have to degrade the condition to do so.

    These tenants sound great because they have respect for and want to improve the place.

    and NO that doesnt meant they have an ownership claim on it. Thats ridiculous.

    THats not true. I live in the Netherlands and when I asked for a tap it was only allowed if it was installed by their approved plumber, and i had to pay for the work to be done. And if the next tenant didnt accept it i had to pay to have it removed. Also there is no way i'd be allowed install a stove in a house myself.


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  • #132
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    STB. wrote: »
    You JUST need to lay down the law about upgrading of the property without your say so. Like the central heating. Didn't you mention that this guy has installed a stove ??? That's a definite No No. If that house goes on fire you are rightly fecked. The first thing the insurance company will look for is the installers cert which you don't have.
    Stoves don't come with installers certificates. They're not controlled works, so anyone can do it.

    The insurance company's only get-out clause is to prove that the work was not done by a competent person.
    You have concerns about the compliance of the work done and it has implications for your house insurance. Also drilling holes and plumbing tabs is a no no regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not.
    This is over-egging it. Outside of certain electrical or gas work, there are no regulations which govern small building works, and as such no statutory obligation on any homeowner to use a "compliant", certified, professional or formally qualified tradesperson.
    The insurance company will require that all works which are carried out meet the necessary standards and that they are carried out by a competent person. That competent person can be the homeowner or a friend.

    Drilling holes and plumbing taps is mostly definitely not a "no-no".


  • #133
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    STB. wrote: »
    You would have to give them notice that you are selling.

    Whether they move or not is up to your gut instinct. There are two ends of the scale. Having tenants who are genuinely enthusiastic and or/houseproud and those that live like animals/ cause you grief by not paying rent etc. You seem to be at one extreme which is over enthusiastic.

    You JUST need to lay down the law about upgrading of the property without your say so. Like the central heating. Didn't you mention that this guy has installed a stove ??? That's a definite No No. If that house goes on fire you are rightly fecked. The first thing the insurance company will look for is the installers cert which you don't have.

    You have concerns about the compliance of the work done and it has implications for your house insurance. Also drilling holes and plumbing tabs is a no no regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not.

    You need to explain that whilst you know they are well meaning, they need to consult with you first.

    I don't think they will move easily. They've been there for just few months and making all those changes they are sending the message that they want to stay long term. What can I legally do if the don' want to move? Can I give a solicitor a power of attorney to act on my behalf and sell the house, getting rid of them in the meanwhile? I am loosing sleep on this tbh :(

    My worry is indeed on the liability for the works they've done - it is on me :(

    Just don't know what to do, I am very worried this situation can go very bad. What happens if they stop paying rent? Can I evict them easily?

    I am thinking to put an estate agent, but they don't care at all on what is written in the contract and to my words. Would they care to an estate agents?


  • #134
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    seamus wrote: »
    Stoves don't come with installers certificates. They're not controlled works, so anyone can do it.

    The insurance company's only get-out clause is to prove that the work was not done by a competent person.

    This is over-egging it. Outside of certain electrical or gas work, there are no regulations which govern small building works, and as such no statutory obligation on any homeowner to use a "compliant", certified, professional or formally qualified tradesperson.
    The insurance company will require that all works which are carried out meet the necessary standards and that they are carried out by a competent person. That competent person can be the homeowner or a friend.

    Drilling holes and plumbing taps is mostly definitely not a "no-no".

    What are the basis of this statements? do you have any reference?

    It is not because I don't trust what you say but I am getting opposite information on the same subject :(


  • #135
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    This will break the lease and landlord could end up in trouble.

    OP already said that it's reduced rent. This most likely means that he has a reduced deposit.

    Any landlord not wanting to change the market value should be getting 3 months deposit at least. imo
    No it won't and the tenants already broke the lease already. They have the option to return everything as it was or pay an extra deposit to cover fixing the problems.


  • #136
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    What are the basis of this statements? do you have any reference?

    It is not because I don't trust what you say but I am getting opposite information on the same subject :(

    Originally Posted by seamus viewpost.gif
    Stoves don't come with installers certificates. They're not controlled works, so anyone can do it.


    This is 100 percent true unfortunately. I gave up general plumbing decades ago as I specialize now in shower repair. However I am a member of the Heating Plumbing Association of Ireland & following the general chat with more knowledgeable plumbers than myself I can confirm that Seamus is totally correct. They are trying to make this restricted work at the moment as carbon monoxide can kill. Unfortunately DIY warriors can make dangerous jobs look good on the outside yet can be lethal on the inside.


  • #137
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    seamus wrote: »
    Stoves don't come with installers certificates. They're not controlled works, so anyone can do it.

    The insurance company's only get-out clause is to prove that the work was not done by a competent person.

    NO. Regardless of compliance certificates, ANYONE cannot do it. And especially not in my property. I would be seeking someone with a proven track record in the absence of a certification system. There would be no come back from a builders mate.
    seamus wrote: »
    This is over-egging it. Outside of certain electrical or gas work, there are no regulations which govern small building works, and as such no statutory obligation on any homeowner to use a "compliant", certified, professional or formally qualified tradesperson.
    The insurance company will require that all works which are carried out meet the necessary standards and that they are carried out by a competent person. That competent person can be the homeowner or a friend.

    Drilling holes and plumbing taps is mostly definitely not a "no-no".

    Over egging it my hole. Its not their property to mess with.

    "Certain" electrical or gas work. Try ALL.

    Someone drilling holes in concrete walls and fitting outdoor taps without the property owners say so is not over egging it. You obviously don't actually property yourself. If you did it would be rather cavalier attitude to not give a toss.


  • #138
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    What are the basis of this statements? do you have any reference?

    It is not because I don't trust what you say but I am getting opposite information on the same subject :(
    Your standard solid fuel freestanding or cassette stoves which are not hooked up to the heating system, are not covered by any specific legislation in Ireland. Gas stoves must be fitted by an RGI.

    There are regulations in regards heating appliance in general. The only bits which apply to stoves installed in an existing hearth are the requirement for adequate air flow and the requirement for a CO alarm.

    In the UK there are HETAS regulations; most fitters in Ireland operate to these standards, but they have no jurisdiction in Ireland. So it would be correct to say that no qualifications are required to fit a stove in Ireland.

    Check your own insurance policy for the specific wording on works inside the home.

    Mine, for example (with Allianz), simply states that they will not pay out for "Loss, damage or liability resulting from faulty workmanship, defective design or the use of defective materials."

    Outside of that, there is no mention of any requirement to use professionals, obtain certificates, etc etc.

    Anything which requires a professional by law and has not been installed or inspected by such a professional, is "faulty workmanship". Everything else is a matter of opinion. If we go down the what-if route and the house burns down because of the stove, the insurance company will talk to the tenant to ascertain whether he was competent to fit it. If they agree that he knew what he was doing, then they'll pay out.

    But the same applies to virtually any DIY. Obviously the stove being a fire risk, it is worth your while covering your own ass on it. And as you mention that it was originally plumbed for gas, it might be worth getting an RGI's opinion on it.

    Your landlord insurance will have a different wording and might have an exclusion specifically for works carried out by the tenant, so it's also worth checking it out.


  • #139
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    O/p you should serve them with a notice to remove all unauthorised changes within 3 weeks or their tenancy is at risk. Don't listen to any creamy bull**** from them.


  • #140
    pgj2015
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If we want to encourage long term renting we should move to the system in other european countries where the landlord basically rents just the four walls.
    The tenant is reponsible for furnishing it and dealing with all normal repairs etc. At the end of the rental period the tenant ensures that the house is returned in the condition they received it, repainting if necessary.
    For the landlord, he gets his rent with no hassle, no wear and tear, no repairs to washing machines etc and being a landlord is just like holding any other investment.
    For the tenant they get a house that they can furnish as they like using their own furniture and can genuinely feel that its a long term home.
    This would encourage more people to rent as most of the hassle, and increased costs, comes not from the house, but the furnishings, equipment and maintenance.



    what often happens in this country is tenants trash the landlords house and leave owing weeks of rent, which is never repaid. if we adopted this renting the four walls idea, the tenants would make changes and leave without reverting the property to its original state.

    op, you sound a little passive to me and i think these tenants have figured the same, they have made some worrying changes in a very short amount of time, what if you ever want to move into this house and like me you prefer an open fire to a stove? do you think these tenants will restore the fire place to its original state? i wouldnt think so.

    i would be getting rid of these tenants asap, you dont owe them anything.


    it is ok to ask for some advice here op but you are going to get conflicting advice so you would be best to contact a solicitor for now.


  • #141
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    I think you could be panicking over nothing - I get the whole overstepping the mark thing, but maybe have a word with them, make it clear there are to be no more changes without your prior permission, put it in writing even and have your solicitor send it to them, but it sounds to me like you've at the very least got people in who are eager to look after the place and stay there for a long time, I wouldn't be viewing that as a huge problem. You said yourself the place is in better condition than when you gave it to them- would you rather a bunch of students or some dole day party pad or something like that?

    As problems go, there are worse ones to have!


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  • #142
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,305 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    Is it possible to check if those people have had any enforcement to leave the previous house? maybe at the court?
    Search for their name, surname, etc, on the RTB website.
    pasquale83 wrote: »
    I am thinking to put an estate agent
    Most estate agents will probably only care when the rent stops coming in.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I get the whole overstepping the mark thing, but maybe have a word with them, make it clear there are to be no more changes without your prior permission
    I'd say if the OP warns them, they just won't tell the OP of any changes in the future.

    =-=

    OP; have you asked where your original white goods went to?


  • #143
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    the_syco wrote: »
    I'd say if the OP warns them, they just won't tell the OP of any changes in the future.

    =-=

    OP; have you asked where your original white goods went to?

    That is what happened indeed. Painting the walls and landscaping was agreed. I've asked them multiple times to talk to me, I was also keen to pay for material as that would have been something staying in my house.

    The result is that they did whatever they wanted, hiding everything to me. That is the problem of all of this situation. I think I am very reasonable person and drifting a bit from the contract is something I can do. But they are going a bit too much further.

    Re the white goods, they are stored in the attic.


  • #144
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    what often happens in this country is tenants trash the landlords house and leave owing weeks of rent, which is never repaid. if we adopted this renting the four walls idea, the tenants would make changes and leave without reverting the property to its original state.

    op, you sound a little passive to me and i think these tenants have figured the same, they have made some worrying changes in a very short amount of time, what if you ever want to move into this house and like me you prefer an open fire to a stove? do you think these tenants will restore the fire place to its original state? i wouldnt think so.

    i would be getting rid of these tenants asap, you dont owe them anything.


    it is ok to ask for some advice here op but you are going to get conflicting advice so you would be best to contact a solicitor for now.

    Indeed. There is not a unique answer to the problem. And none of you knows 100% the situation simply because you're reading it through a discussion forum. I will need to talk to a solicitor to get things straight from the legal perspective.

    I just don't understand why these people are being so stupid to fight with me. I am reasonable, I've allowed them some work and to be honest I would have allowed them also the others if they asked and agreed them with me beforehand. I am a very honest person but looks like they are not. And I don't understand why they don't just pay rent, communicate with me and live an happy life.


  • #145
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    That is what happened indeed. Painting the walls and landscaping was agreed. I've asked them multiple times to talk to me, I was also keen to pay for material as that would have been something staying in my house.

    The result is that they did whatever they wanted, hiding everything to me. That is the problem of all of this situation. I think I am very reasonable person and drifting a bit from the contract is something I can do. But they are going a bit too much further.

    Re the white goods, they are stored in the attic.




    You didn't explain it quite like that in your opening post.



    There is a huge difference between a builder & a handyman. Handyman I'd let decorate or make minor repairs inc the outside tap. A builder I might let put in the stove.


    You have them on reduced rent so I assume reduced deposit. If I were to rent at reduced rent I'd be looking for 3 months deposit upfront & that's without the alterations



    At this stage maybe you should consult your solicitor for advise. It's important that you find out now, before tenants gain more rights in a month or two, if that stove is sound & safe. I honestly think a chat with your solicitor today of tomorrow. You are getting close to the six month mark.


  • #146
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    Indeed. There is not a unique answer to the problem. And none of you knows 100% the situation simply because you're reading it through a discussion forum. I will need to talk to a solicitor to get things straight from the legal perspective.

    I just don't understand why these people are being so stupid to fight with me. I am reasonable, I've allowed them some work and to be honest I would have allowed them also the others if they asked and agreed them with me beforehand. I am a very honest person but looks like they are not. And I don't understand why they don't just pay rent, communicate with me and live an happy life.




    I don't doubt that you are indeed all of the above. It's just that some people see kindness as weakness & the more you give the more they take


  • #147
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    People like that never change. That is their nature. You should be getting them out. However much trouble it is to get rid of them now it will be far worse when they inevitably act up regarding rent.


  • #148
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    People like that never change. That is their nature. You should be getting them out. However much trouble it is to get rid of them now it will be far worse when they inevitably act up regarding rent.

    what do you mean by that?


  • #149
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    pasquale83 wrote: »
    what do you mean by that?

    The guy is a builder. His income fluctuates. When trouble hits, the answer to your claims for rent will be "look at all we spent on the house". you will be strung along for months with promises that a big payment is coming When you go to the RTB all this work will be costed at thousands in an attempt to resist your claim.I know a landlord who ended up having the exaggerated price of a crap laminate floor taken from his award. The tenant claimed there was a filthy carpet there (untrue). You are now staring into the abyss. It is much better to get rd of a tenant like that before things get any worse. If they want to play Bob the Builder, they should buy their own house.


  • #150
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    pasquale83 wrote: »

    Re the white goods, they are stored in the attic.

    Have you seen them?

    You'd be doing well to get a washing machine into the attic!


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  • #151
    pasquale83
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭pasquale83


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Have you seen them?

    You'd be doing well to get a washing machine into the attic!

    well, the washing machine and the oven are gone...the rest is in the attic.


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