Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

elperello · 10-11-2017 12:45pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Wetherspoons have no reason to do anything.

We have to wait and see if the Scottish Supreme court appeal comes of anything to see if the EU can help out.

And even if the Scottish court gives the thumbs up there's scope for it to be appealed here due to how the EUCJ worded their judgement

So our government would have to make a case to EUCJ.

Just imagine it. Their submission might read like this-

"We already have higher taxes on drink than nearly every other country in the EU but our people are still drinking themselves to death. Please let us fix the market and make them pay even more so we can save them"

FutureGuy · 10-11-2017 1:00pm

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

Dr Crayfish · 10-11-2017 1:02pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

should it not be someone's choice if they choose to get drunk whenever they like?

Zubeneschamali · 10-11-2017 1:05pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

85% of statistics are completely made up.

Macy0161 · 10-11-2017 1:06pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

Well it's the wording of the question really, and whether this is a solution. Yes, there are people with drinking problems in Ireland, and unhealthy associations with alcohol, perhaps disproportionately.

Will minimum pricing do anything to tackle any of that - No
Will it boost profits of the ones that benefit from whatever drinking problems exist in Ireland - Yes
Will it affect consumers who don't have a problem with alcohol - Yes

Leroy42 · 10-11-2017 1:09pm

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

should it not be someone's choice if they choose to get drunk whenever they like?

Well yes. But that argument falls down a bit when their drunkedness causes issue for the health service, courts, garda and other people.

Its like the smoking ban. Should people be allowed to smoke even after they have been informed of all the facts? YEs. Should they be allowed to impact on those you don't want to?

No.

Do I want to walk down the street avoiding sick on the streets? Have to avoid A&E on weekend nights because it is full of drunks. To have to share Garda resources with going around dealing with issues caused by alcohol

McMurphy · 10-11-2017 1:13pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

I dunno about you, but the opinion of 10'000 random fictitious people from around the world's assumptions aren't what I would like to base legislation on.

votecounts · 10-11-2017 1:14pm

Pardon my ignorance but this bill has been very quiet, nothing on the daily news about it. When do ye expect this bill to be passed and come in to force.
Should I rush out from work and and grab 12 cans of Galahad?
On another note, who says the pubs provide a duty of care as I see many pubs serve any old drunk once they can pay and these fellas never go near an offie.

rob316 · 10-11-2017 1:55pm

Get people into pubs for a drink is a load of BS, I tell ya I'd have much preferred growing up if my Dad had a few cans at home than never seen him because he was in the pub.

The widespread culture of going to pub straight after work now is gone and rightfully too. I've never got pissed from drinking at home, where as there is an extremely high chance I will if I go to the pub.

IVF are fuelling this bill, it all about protecting their trade.

Macy0161 · 10-11-2017 2:04pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well yes. But that argument falls down a bit when their drunkedness causes issue for the health service, courts, garda and other people.

Its like the smoking ban. Should people be allowed to smoke even after they have been informed of all the facts? YEs. Should they be allowed to impact on those you don't want to?

No.

Do I want to walk down the street avoiding sick on the streets? Have to avoid A&E on weekend nights because it is full of drunks. To have to share Garda resources with going around dealing with issues caused by alcohol

Banning drinking in pubs, as per the smoking ban, would do more to address those issues than minimum pricing.

Minimum pricing isn't going to impact on those that are lining up the jager bomb's (or whatever) and get themselves in a mess/ fight.

Dr Crayfish · 10-11-2017 2:06pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well yes. But that argument falls down a bit when their drunkedness causes issue for the health service, courts, garda and other people.

Its like the smoking ban. Should people be allowed to smoke even after they have been informed of all the facts? YEs. Should they be allowed to impact on those you don't want to?

No.

Do I want to walk down the street avoiding sick on the streets? Have to avoid A&E on weekend nights because it is full of drunks. To have to share Garda resources with going around dealing with issues caused by alcohol

drunks falling around the streets and getting sick on the streets at night are coming out of pubs and bars. Why don't they up the prices of booze in pubs and bars then?

Leroy42 · 10-11-2017 2:29pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Banning drinking in pubs, as per the smoking ban, would do more to address those issues than minimum pricing.

Minimum pricing isn't going to impact on those that are lining up the jager bomb's (or whatever) and get themselves in a mess/ fight.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

drunks falling around the streets and getting sick on the streets at night are coming out of pubs and bars. Why don't they up the prices of booze in pubs and bars then?

Totally agree on both. I was responding to the post that said

should it not be someone's choice if they choose to get drunk whenever they like?

The pub wasn't mentioned in that.

goose2005 · 10-11-2017 4:14pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Am I correct in saying all the top brands like Guinness Heineken Budweiser ect will remain the same price but their cheaper competitors will
almost double in price?
That's some coup for the big boys!They must be on their knees laughing!

They'll have to increase their prices to keep their status as "premium" brands

goose2005 · 10-11-2017 4:17pm

Rick Shaw wrote: »

But they have now shifted their position back to revenue streams away from health (sniggers).

They've expressed they don't want to introduce this bill until they get cross border price fixing.

With the Dupers and SF unable to agree the time of day up North, and the Westminster regime hanging in there by a thread, this bills introduction is no further forward now than it ever was.

Worth remembering that Scots law and Northern Irish law are entirely different systems so the Scottish decision may not affect the NI laws

goose2005 · 10-11-2017 4:19pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

Ireland is 12th of 33 OECD countries, and rates drop every year.

my poor tortured hands · 10-11-2017 4:23pm

Current situation with beer.
Budget brands, yellow pack etc, .80 to 1.00
Standard cans, Canadian Mols etc are 1.00 to 1.25
Premium cans, Guinness, Carlsberg etc, 1.25 to 1.70 but often less than 1.30.
Craft beer > 2.00

Under Minimum Pricing.
Budget brands, yellow pack etc, GONE
Standard cans, Canadian Mols etc are GONE
Premium cans, Guinness etc, 2.00.
Craft beer > 2.00, UNCHANGED

Shops can't sell Guinness at artifically high prices because other shops would undercut them.
Current profit on Guinness.
price = 1.25
Excise + VAT = 0.75
Profit for manufacturer and retailer =.50

Super profits after minimum pricing.
price = 2.00
Excise + VAT = 0.95
Profit for manufacturer and retailer = 1.05

Extra profit of approx 50 cents per can after minimum pricing. That's double the profit.

If some shops are stupid enough to charge more than the minimum price than they won't sell much and others will make the super normal profits.

Budget brands go out of business. That's unfair and that's what the court cases are about.

Spirits are basically the same.

macnug · 10-11-2017 5:43pm

my poor tortured hands wrote:

Under Minimum Pricing. Budget brands, yellow pack etc, GONE Standard cans, Canadian Mols etc are GONE Premium cans, Guinness etc, 2.00. Craft beer > 2.00, UNCHANGED

Would there not be a market for cheap/standard beer sold at mup?

Reputable Rog · 10-11-2017 6:26pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Worth remembering that Scots law and Northern Irish law are entirely different systems so the Scottish decision may not affect the NI laws

This is being challenged in the UK Supreme Court not the Scottish courts, so therefore the ruling will have implications for Northern Ireland.

suicide_circus · 10-11-2017 6:30pm

Does anyone think that if the price of heroin went up 20% tomorrow that junkies would knock their habit on the head?

gctest50 · 10-11-2017 7:46pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

The vast majority of people saying there isn't a drinking problem in Ireland is incredible IMHO.

If you took 10,000 people from all over the world and described the drinking culture in Ireland to them, I'd say 99% would say we had a serious issue.

If you asked 10,000 imaginary people " do the video games cause the mass shootings " - 99% would say yes

meanwhile back in reality :

my poor tortured hands · 10-11-2017 9:01pm

There would be some market for standard cans in the future but a much smaller market.

Imagine today if they introduced the minimum price but they didn't change the prices on the shelves. People would get to the till with the 6 cans for 6 euro and be told that they must pay 2 euro a can, so 12 euro. Customers would almost certanly ditch the cheaper cans and buy more expensive brands.

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen after 5 years say... would the cheaper brands survive and would a price differential open up above the minimum price?
I'm convinced at the start that all brands will sell at the minimum price.

This will be very unpopular. Loads of people expect to get cans for 1.25 or less. I'd say that over half the sales of most off-licences are below 1.30 per can. So all of those people would be hugely affected. They might not know now but they will when they hit the till.

Jimmy Garlic · 10-11-2017 9:55pm

my poor tortured hands wrote: »

There would be some market for standard cans in the future but a much smaller market.

Imagine today if they introduced the minimum price but they didn't change the prices on the shelves. People would get to the till with the 6 cans for 6 euro and be told that they must pay 2 euro a can, so 12 euro. Customers would almost certanly ditch the cheaper cans and buy more expensive brands.

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen after 5 years say... would the cheaper brands survive and would a price differential open up above the minimum price?
I'm convinced at the start that all brands will sell at the minimum price.

This will be very unpopular. Loads of people expect to get cans for 1.25 or less. I'd say that over half the sales of most off-licences are below 1.30 per can. So all of those people would be hugely affected. They might not know now but they will when they hit the till.

There will be a huge increase in the black market for alcohol for sure. Ferry to France and filling the boot would be a nice little earner.

Spanish Eyes · 10-11-2017 10:02pm

The vinters are miserable so and so's.

They want everyone to go to the pub and drink overpriced everything with TVs at every turn showing the most boring stuff in history. I refuse to sit anywhere near a TV on the rare occasions I grace a pub these days.

If they even threw a bag of crisps/peanuts down with every round or something like the tapas equivalent in other European countries well, maybe I'd have a bit of sympathy for them.

But I have none. They come across as miserable whiny bstards, giving out about everything, but do nothing to entice the customers in at all. Ever. I'm talking about local pubs here. Town is different, I know that. But even there they are the same.

How could supplying a pack of crisps or nuts make them bankrupt FGS. Sorry they are just moany oul yokes.

Jim Bob Scratcher · 10-11-2017 10:25pm

When is the price increase expected to come in ?

Reputable Rog · 10-11-2017 10:28pm

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

When is the price increase expected to come in ?

When it takes effect in Norn Iron, the 25th of not anytime soon.

Spanish Eyes · 10-11-2017 10:34pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

When it takes effect in Norn Iron, the 25th of not anytime soon.

(beer) can kicked down the road now. Long may the Assembly up North just keep the infighting going. We are saved!

Capt'n Midnight · 10-11-2017 11:17pm

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Originally Posted by B.A._Baracus View Post
So what does this mean for the likes of Lidl beer. I enjoy perlenbacher myself at 7.29. So it'll be at least 10 euro now?

500ml x 4.9% x 6 bottles x 0.79* x 10 cent = €11.61

*One ml of ethanol weighs 0.79 grams.

Don't forget this price increase will also apply to Galahad which is currently € 8.79 for 12 cans €1.47 a litre

at the new price it would be 500ml x 4% x 12 bottles x 0.79* x 10 cent = €18.96 €3.16 a litre

And, excluding the VAT, Aldi would be forced to pocket all of the difference as it would be illegal for them to do otherwise.

Leroy42 · 10-11-2017 11:31pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And, excluding the VAT, Aldi would be forced to pocket all of the difference as it would be illegal for them to do otherwise.

Is this really the case? I'm not sure it is. They have to charge a MUP but what can they do with that? Can they give FOC snacks? Give bonus points on loyalty cards? Tesco could give petrol vouchers etc

Unless the retailer has to send the MUP to the revenue I can't see how they can legislate against that.

ohnonotgmail · 10-11-2017 11:42pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is this really the case? I'm not sure it is. They have to charge a MUP but what can they do with that? Can they give FOC snacks? Give bonus points on loyalty cards? Tesco could give petrol vouchers etc

Unless the retailer has to send the MUP to the revenue I can't see how they can legislate against that.

all of the above would be seen as an attempt to circumvent MUP and outlawed.

my poor tortured hands · 10-11-2017 11:48pm

Leroy42 does raise an interesting point.

At first it seems obvious, retailers can't give something of value to the customers to offset the minimum price as that would break the minimum price rules.

Then I thought of free bars, and thought they'd be illegal. But they'd be ok as long as someone was paying the minimum price.

But then I was thinking, what stops Tesco from also paying for drinks for it's friends, like it's customers?
The only difference is that Tesco would be both the benefactor and the retailer but so what eh?, So what?
Stick it to the man. Ouch.

edit.
Another difference is that free bars provide drinks for immediate consumption in glasses whereas retailers sell closed drinks.

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Comments