Told I have to leave apartment in 30 days - any recourse?

FakePie · 03-05-2018 9:23am

GGTrek wrote: »

I believe the actions of the agent of your landlord to be unjustified, however if you go with the arguments quoted to an RTB adjudication where a solicitor or a barrister will adjudicate, you will get a nasty wake-up on your ideas of what is admissible or not!

Sure - in regards to admissibility of the Declaration - that was more so just conjecture on my part.

However, my primary concern from here is, moving forward with a Subpoena as to attaining the papers of sale, which demonstrate the sale of property.

Will it be up to myself to do that, or will the RTB - can and will they do it on my behalf?

And as for a halt on notice of termination during adjudication - is that in fact the case?

C3PO · 03-05-2018 9:39am

FakePie wrote: »

However, my primary concern from here is, moving forward with a Subpoena as to attaining the papers of sale, which demonstrate the sale of property.

I'm beginning to wonder whether this thread is a wind-up?

FakePie · 03-05-2018 11:08am

C3PO wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder whether this thread is a wind-up?

You understand what's potentially at stake here?

Me being unjustly turfed out of my apartment - in this current market - could well leave me homeless, and forced to stay at a shelter - I kid you not; at the very least, move to another town/city with more affordable rent prices.

It's a genuine query.

I'm a rental disputes blank slate.

I have been informed that I am obliged to present information to the RTB - they won't go looking for it on my behalf.

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

With all that being said - where does that leave me?
How can I approach this situation such that I don't have to vacate - and attempt to prove the property was in fact not sold, and was re-rented - after I've moved out?

Pelvis · 03-05-2018 11:10am

You can't. Once you receive valid notice of termination then you have to leave at the end of the notice period.

Claw Hammer · 03-05-2018 1:39pm

FakePie wrote: »

I have been informed that I am obliged to present information to the RTB - they won't go looking for it on my behalf.

Quite right.

FakePie wrote: »

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

Quite right.

FakePie wrote: »

With all that being said - where does that leave me?

After you have exhausted the appeal process - out.

FakePie wrote: »

How can I approach this situation such that I don't have to vacate - and attempt to prove the property was in fact not sold, and was re-rented - after I've moved out?

You might start by getting proper legal advice. A good lawyer might be able to spin things out for you.

C3PO · 03-05-2018 2:04pm

FakePie wrote: »

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

But you don't actually know this - you just suspect that this is the case (and you are possibly correct!)
But the only way you can find out is if you leave and the apartment is put back on the rental market by it's current owner - the RTB has nothing to work on otherwise!

spaceHopper · 03-05-2018 4:23pm

Start looking, if you find somewhere well and good. In the mean time, write to the LL and solistor, acknlodege the letter and state that you have enjoyed living in the aparment and area, should they change their mind about selling you would welcome the chance to rent it again. Make sure there is an email and phone number in letter.

That basically means they won't be able to rent it to somebody else with out offering it to you first, and can't clamin at a leter RTB case they they had now way of contacting you.

FakePie · 03-05-2018 6:32pm

spaceHopper wrote: »

Start looking, if you find somewhere well and good. In the mean time, write to the LL and solistor, acknlodege the letter and state that you have enjoyed living in the aparment and area, should they change their mind about selling you would welcome the chance to rent it again. Make sure there is an email and phone number in letter.

That basically means they won't be able to rent it to somebody else with out offering it to you first, and can't clamin at a leter RTB case they they had now way of contacting you.

There's basically no where else available right now - short of moving to another town, which I may have to consider, short of spending however long necessary in the homeless shelter until a place comes up.

I've already written to the rental agent requesting lease renewal - they have my contact details.

FakePie · 03-05-2018 6:39pm

C3PO wrote: »

But you don't actually know this - you just suspect that this is the case (and you are possibly correct!)
But the only way you can find out is if you leave and the apartment is put back on the rental market by it's current owner - the RTB has nothing to work on otherwise!

If it is re-let - how do I prove that?

Go to the agents and ask - "by chance, has that property been re-let and not sold like was written in the sworn affidavit you mailed me - thus leaving you guys potentially liable?".

The other way to know for sure is to view papers of sale - which state the new owner.

If the papers of propriety state the same owner three months from now is the same as this current moment - then I have a leg to stand on.

However - how do I access the papers of propriety?

I kind of feel I might be going in circles at this point.

If there's any novel insights - I'm sure glad to hear them.

Otherwise - I'll keep you guys updated to further proceedings in due course.

surrender monkey · 03-05-2018 7:08pm

I have no idea what "papers of propriety" are but once a property is registered in the land registry anyone can check the ownership of it on the land registry website on payment of €5. If the property is sold then the transfer will lodged in the land registry and will show up as a "dealing pending" also any sale of a property should be listed on the property price register within 44 days of the date of sale.

You can't obtain the "papers of sale" if the property is being sold to someone else. Id be checking daft.ie and all the agents websites in the area every couple of days. Set up an alert on daft for properties to let or for sale in the area so you won't miss anything. As a previous poster said you will eventually need to move so you should prepare yourself for that. You also need to realise that the landlord is serving notice that they intend to enter into a contract for sale within three months, they do not have to complete the sale within the three month timeframe.

FakePie · 03-05-2018 7:27pm

I have received notice that a buyer has been determined, and that buyer is requesting vacancy of property.

If that's the information I'm receiving - I have to question why I would expect to see the property of daft.ie or such?

surrender monkey · 03-05-2018 7:37pm

Sorry i didnt notice that in your op. If that is the case then it won't go up on websites. It will show up on the property price register and the transfer will be lodged in land registry at some stage after the sale assuming everything is above board of course. Either way you aren't entitled to see the contract for sale between the parties

mrslancaster · 03-05-2018 8:09pm

surrender monkey wrote: »

Sorry i didnt notice that in your op. If that is the case then it won't go up on websites. It will show up on the property price register and the transfer will be lodged in land registry at some stage after the sale assuming everything is above board of course. Either way you aren't entitled to see the contract for sale between the parties

Assuming a sale goes through without any hiccups - it's not unknown for a house sale to fall through because of issues with bank loans or other things that can happen to stop a sale. We had that years ago as the buyer got a job in the UK so we had to start again from scratch - took another 8/9 months to sell and finalise everything as the solicitors on both sides seemed to take ages. It could be faster now

If the sale didn't happen, the owner might put the property back on the rental market or they might not; they could lease it to the council for 10-20 years and the rental agent wouldn't be involved or know anything about it and it wouldn't be advertised on daft.

FakePie · 03-05-2018 9:16pm

That would appear to be the point of contention.

Sales are exceptionally difficult to prove as being valid or no - so a signed affidavit doesn't really stand for a whole lot - in my eyes.
In the courts eyes, it does - so my opinion is basically moot.

So with that being said - I suppose what I'd want to determine from here - is has the apartment been re-let, after my eviction?

Which I know it will be, cause I've had a viewer here, and the rental agent already told me said viewer moving into this town and looking to rent.

Therefore - what can I, or the RTB do - as a means to, basically - prove this?

Now - my neighbour shares a balcony with my apartment, and we're on friendly terms - so I could always just visit her, then snap a few pics through the window.

What that will prove - I don't know.

I could also access the mailbox, snap pictures of the mail etc - legality of that, I also don't know.

Point is - there's bound to be documentation, in the hands of the rental agent, that the RTB can request?
If they would indeed do that?
As to the apartment being re-leased.

surrender monkey · 03-05-2018 9:27pm

You could always ask your neighbour to keep an eye out and when a new person moves in to let you know. They could draw them out and get the info off them

laotg · 03-05-2018 10:14pm

If I were you OP I'd be looking for a new place to rent. Even if in a few months you somehow prove(highly unlikely) that the landlord falsified intention to sell just to get a new tenant with higher rent you won't be placed back in as tenant and the new tenant turfed out. Their rights will then be paramount to yours. Also, remember for a conviction to be secured the burden of proof will be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Pretty unprovable really considering how many sales can fall through. And even if the landlord was convicted you wouldn't gain much, if any compensation.

4ensic15 · 04-05-2018 7:16am

The legislation only requires that the landlord intends to enter a contract within 3 months. Intention is a state of mind. Tangible evidence can only be obtained indirectly. If a landlord states that he intends to sell and makes a statutory declaration to that effect, it is presumed he intends to sell. It would be very difficult to rebut that presumption. The RTB certainly won't go about trying to and it is unlikely any evidence of a contrary intention could be sourced by the tenant.
American legal jargon will be no help to a tenant.

FakePie · 04-05-2018 9:20am

4ensic15 wrote: »

The legislation only requires that the landlord intends to enter a contract within 3 months. Intention is a state of mind. Tangible evidence can only be obtained indirectly. If a landlord states that he intends to sell and makes a statutory declaration to that effect, it is presumed he intends to sell. It would be very difficult to rebut that presumption. The RTB certainly won't go about trying to and it is unlikely any evidence of a contrary intention could be sourced by the tenant.
American legal jargon will be no help to a tenant.

Excellent breakdown.

In other words - similar to the information Threshold relaid to me, proving intention to sell as being invalid, normally goes unsuccessful.

A further shift in perspective of that being - the Landlady in this instance has taken the correct steps to ensure the property is vacated of its current tenant, as a means to make room for her friend who wants to rent from under the current tenant - and there's basically very little the current tenant can do about it.

As to what the poster above you mentioned - once a new tenant is put in place (which will be almost immediately as I understand it), their rights supersede my own?

That's new to me as - I was of the understanding the obligation was to re-rent it to myself should sale of property not go through?

C3PO · 04-05-2018 10:00am

At this stage you would seem to have two choices OP - leave as requested by a valid notice to quit or refuse to leave and let your landlord use the courts to have you evicted. The latter course will undoubtedly buy you significant time but could make it very difficult to find anywhere else to rent when you are eventually evicted and could also be very stressful!

mrslancaster · 04-05-2018 12:38pm

I'm just curious but would the landlord go to all the trouble of getting a statutory declaration that they intended to sell if that was untrue?

I can't see why he would do it if he is not selling.

Surely it would be easier and less costly to continue with the current tenant?

It seems like a lot of bother and expense to simply change a tenant - the landlord would have to get all the references and checks for a new tenant, pay the letting agent, pay the fee for the new registration with RTB, then the costs of repainting and repairs, maybe replace items of furniture, cleaning costs etc

The landlord could also lose rental income for a period of time.

FakePie · 04-05-2018 2:45pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

I'm just curious but would the landlord go to all the trouble of getting a statutory declaration that they intended to sell if that was untrue?

I can't see why he would do it if he is not selling.

Surely it would be easier and less costly to continue with the current tenant?

It seems like a lot of bother and expense to simply change a tenant - the landlord would have to get all the references and checks for a new tenant, pay the letting agent, pay the fee for the new registration with RTB, then the costs of repainting and repairs, maybe replace items of furniture, cleaning costs etc

The landlord could also lose rental income for a period of time.

The rental agent already let slip it's a close personal friend of the Landlady that will be renting the property - thus there are no necessary references etc.
The property owner has a number of properties with this rental agent - so I assume they're working to her favour.
Also - from what I understand - the new tenant wishes to take the property from the 1st of next month - i.e. the immediate day after my eviction date as per the notice of termination - so there will be no rental time lost.

The property was fully refurbished 11 months previously, painted etc - and I've kept it in pristine condition.

The next tenant has been here to look, and was clearly very taken with the place - cause - I don't know if I mentioned, but it's a lovely apartment, top of a building overlooking the entire city, huge balcony, bay windows.
Really can't get a nicer place, at a better price.

In terms of the "trouble" - a signed piece of paper?
As a favour for a close friend?

4ensic15 · 04-05-2018 5:31pm

FakePie wrote: »

The rental agent already let slip it's a close personal friend of the Landlady that will be renting the property - thus there are no necessary references etc.
The property owner has a number of properties with this rental agent - so I assume they're working to her favour.
Also - from what I understand - the new tenant wishes to take the property from the 1st of next month - i.e. the immediate day after my eviction date as per the notice of termination - so there will be no rental time lost.

The property was fully refurbished 11 months previously, painted etc - and I've kept it in pristine condition.

The next tenant has been here to look, and was clearly very taken with the place - cause - I don't know if I mentioned, but it's a lovely apartment, top of a building overlooking the entire city, huge balcony, bay windows.
Really can't get a nicer place, at a better price.

In terms of the "trouble" - a signed piece of paper?
As a favour for a close friend?

If all that is true, you could open a dispute with the RTB and keep it going for a while. the close friend may find alternative accommodation and the urgency might abate.

FakePie · 04-05-2018 7:33pm

Keep it going for a while?

What does that mean - appeal it?

Does that prolong the dispute - if I lodge an appeal?

They've told me that, typically - adjudication will last about 8 weeks.

In other words, when you say, "keep it going" - to what exactly are you referring?

FakePie · 04-05-2018 7:42pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

If all that is true, you could open a dispute with the RTB and keep it going for a while. the close friend may find alternative accommodation and the urgency might abate.

In addition what I can tell you is - as mentioned, there's no other apartment I had yet viewed, that comes even CLOSE to being as nice as the one currently under dispute.

And - the intended female tenant that visited here - my intuition has yet to fail me, and my gathering as to her disposition was, in essence - weapon of mass destruction.
Mal-content - perpetually jaded.

I suspect she'll stop at nothing provided she has the scope - to attain what she wants.

Furthermore - the actual Landlady to the property - similar disposition.

I guess now we know why they're friends.

This may be interpreted as conjecture on my part - but, the reality in my experience is, it's the personalities involved that will ultimately dictate how such situations will play out.

Now - do I have the level headedness to contend with whatever they throw at me - be it fabricated affidavits or otherwise?

Unquestionably.

But - what the "system" can offer me as grounds to stay - how the RTB view and respond to the case, how legal involvement (which I'm in the process of attaining), see's and responds to the case - is, what I see, as being the determining factor as to whose favour this situation will fall.

That being said - if you or another enlightened member feels otherwise - I'm open to suggestion.

4ensic15 · 05-05-2018 10:09am

FakePie wrote: »

Keep it going for a while?

What does that mean - appeal it?

Does that prolong the dispute - if I lodge an appeal?

They've told me that, typically - adjudication will last about 8 weeks.

In other words, when you say, "keep it going" - to what exactly are you referring?

I give up!

FakePie · 05-05-2018 12:09pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

FakePie wrote: »

Keep it going for a while?

What does that mean - appeal it?

Does that prolong the dispute - if I lodge an appeal?

They've told me that, typically - adjudication will last about 8 weeks.

In other words, when you say, "keep it going" - to what exactly are you referring?

I give up!

For a "4ensic" - that's a surprising lack of thoroughness.

Now....

What you got for me?

Told I have to leave apartment in 30 days - any recourse?

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