Told I have to leave apartment in 30 days - any recourse?

FakePie

There was one page: no inclusion of a Statutory Declaration of any kind, or anything else.

C3PO

Go to the RTB now with the notice and ask their advice re. it's validity and your options.

FakePie

Submitted the dispute to the PRTB.

They made clear that yes - agents and landlords have been known to fabricate sales as a means to oust tenants - and that primarily it's a matter of information gather along the way, establishing a paper trail, evidence of any kind, that could facilitate my case in proving there is no actual sale.

The down side - he mentioned, cases like these are proven, normally after the tenant has been evicted, and new tenants have taken the apartment etc.

As it stands currently, their notice of termination is apparently deemed invalid, so according to them - there's no obligation on me to vacate at their stipulated time.

What will actually transpire - remains to be seen.


My question at this point is - when should I proceed with submitting a complaint to the PSR?

Wait until this plays out and have either my current property secured for a further term, or a new property secured - and then file a complaint?
Or just bite the bullet, proceed now - and potentially be told to bounce when I request they source a subsequent property for me, should it come to that?

Claw Hammer

FakePie wrote: »

My question at this point is - when should I proceed with submitting a complaint to the PSR?

Wait until this plays out and have either my current property secured for a further term, or a new property secured - and then file a complaint?
Or just bite the bullet, proceed now - and potentially be told to bounce when I request they source a subsequent property for me, should it come to that?

After complaining to the RTB there is no chance of that agent letting you into another property.

FakePie

Claw Hammer wrote: »

FakePie wrote: »

My question at this point is - when should I proceed with submitting a complaint to the PSR?

Wait until this plays out and have either my current property secured for a further term, or a new property secured - and then file a complaint?
Or just bite the bullet, proceed now - and potentially be told to bounce when I request they source a subsequent property for me, should it come to that?

After complaining to the RTB there is no chance of that agent letting you into another property.

For real?

I thought RTB was standard protocol.

Can anyone else confirm that?

FakePie

Anyways - I received the "sworn affidavit" in the mail.

The property owner and the solicitor in question are both from the same town, and share the same last name.

lol

Anyways - I e-mailed that on to the PRTB.

It just doesn't add up in my head.

There's a lady here, being shown around by a rental agent, clearly looking to rent.
She glances around the apartment for a couple minutes - this was following a phone call from the agency, telling me they have someone looking to rent, to view my apartment.

Then two days after - I get a notice of their intention to sell the apartment.

I mean - who's to say - could be genuine.

But - surely - doesn't that seem a little suspicious to anyone else?

seagull

Did you officially open a dispute with the RTB, or just ask for advice? If you've opened a dispute, you might as well go ahead now with a complaint to the PSR. That's twice now that the agent has served invalid notice, which doesn't exactly scream their competence or professionalism.

They still haven't served valid notice, and the notice period doesn't kick in until they do. It does sound like they will continue trying until they get it right, so it's probably in your interests to start looking for somewhere else.

Fian

FakePie wrote: »

For real?

I thought RTB was standard protocol.

Can anyone else confirm that?

Yes, I think that the particular agent will probably not rent a different property to you again.

You have to consider whether you would like to rent from that agent again given their track record. i would suggest you consider this a bonus rather than a disadvantage. I know it is hard to find places but there are other agents out there.

FakePie

The other thing is - even if the property was sold, that doesn't always mean the necessary vacation of the tenant.

Properties sold all the time and the tenant stays put.

Just the fact that there was a viewer here, and then I get served a notice of termination - which was subsequently made valid - via selling the property;

Is it just me?

runawaybishop

FakePie wrote: »

The other thing is - even if the property was sold, that doesn't always mean the necessary vacation of the tenant.

Properties sold all the time and the tenant stays put.

Just the fact that there was a viewer here, and then I get served a notice of termination - which was subsequently made valid - via selling the property;

Is it just me?

Stop over thinking things and just report them already.

dudara

You’re fixating on the viewer which could have been for any number of reasons. You’re only guessing there.

What you need to focus on IMO is the hard cold facts, and documents you have received. Check that the latest set of docs, including the statutory declaration is valid. If it is, you have to pay heed.

If the landlord fails to sell the house within a certain period (can’t remember the specifics) or put back on the rental market, then they are legally obliged to first offer it to you. If they fail to do that, you can have a valid RTB case.

I’d also complain to the PRSA about the agent’s incompetence.

mrslancaster

dudara wrote: »

If the landlord fails to sell the house within a certain period (can’t remember the specifics) or put back on the rental market, then they are legally obliged to first offer it to you. If they fail to do that, you can have a valid RTB case.

.

So a landlord could put a house on the market and then withdraw it for whatever reason such as he can't get the price he wants or his circumstances change.

If he decides to put it back on the rental market within 6 months of the date the tenant left, he must offer it back to the tenant ( that would be yes as I just read it on another thread )

If its more than 6 months would the tenant have grounds for a dispute?

FakePie

Surely there are documents the PRTB can access that would state the status of the apartment - three months from now?

Or not even three months but - next month?

If the apartment is being rented next month to someone else - can't the PRTB access documentation to that effect; as in, the rental agents can hardly withhold that information?

If it is being rented - then they've blatantly falsely signed a Statutory Declaration?

But - does the PRTB have the facilities to do that?

runawaybishop

FakePie wrote: »

Surely there are documents the PRTB can access that would state the status of the apartment - three months from now?

Or not even three months but - next month?

If the apartment is being rented next month to someone else - can't the PRTB access documentation to that effect; as in, the rental agents can hardly withhold that information?

If it is being rented - then they've blatantly falsely signed a Statutory Declaration?

But - does the PRTB have the facilities to do that?

Why on earth do you care? Report them and get over it.

FakePie

runawaybishop wrote: »

FakePie wrote: »

Surely there are documents the PRTB can access that would state the status of the apartment - three months from now?

Or not even three months but - next month?

If the apartment is being rented next month to someone else - can't the PRTB access documentation to that effect; as in, the rental agents can hardly withhold that information?

If it is being rented - then they've blatantly falsely signed a Statutory Declaration?

But - does the PRTB have the facilities to do that?

Why on earth do you care? Report them and get over it.

I have reported them.

The dispute with the RTB is open - even as we speak.

However, their feedback to me is, there is a certain obligation on myself to acquire as much evidence as possible that may support my case; documents, witnesses, times of phone calls etc.

Obviously - the most profound piece of evident would be a document stating the status of the apartment - whether it has been released (which I know it will be), or sold etc.

Now - the above piece of information that Dudara posted - is intriguing, and not something I had come across previously.

My question is: would the RTB have the authority to request from my rental agent, the most up to date status report on the property?
Or could the rental agents simply fabricate something to that effect also?

runawaybishop

FakePie wrote: »

I have reported them.

The dispute with the RTB is open - even as we speak.

However, their feedback to me is, there is a certain obligation on myself to acquire as much evidence as possible that may support my case; documents, witnesses, times of phone calls etc.

Obviously - the most profound piece of evident would be a document stating the status of the apartment - whether it has been released (which I know it will be), or sold etc.

Now - the above piece of information that Dudara posted - is intriguing, and not something I had come across previously.

My question is: would the RTB have the authority to request from my rental agent, the most up to date status report on the property?
Or could the rental agents simply fabricate something to that effect also?

Once you make your claim with whatever evidence the LL/Agency will counter it and it is up to the RTB to make a decision. If they feel the agency is fabricating info they request additional supporting evidence. The also tend to err on the side of the tenant.

FakePie

runawaybishop wrote: »

Once you make your claim with whatever evidence the LL/Agency will counter it and it is up to the RTB to make a decision. If they feel the agency is fabricating info they request additional supporting evidence. The also tend to err on the side of the tenant.

In terms of requesting additional supporting information that you mention:

I contacted Threshold - and according to them, Landlords commonly use the ploy of intention to sell as a means to oust tenants - specifically because it is so difficult to prove as being false.

They can go before a lawyer and swear intention to sell, then later retract their intention or say the sale fell through etc.
Of course the current tenant has been evicted at that point.

The RTB seemed to stress during my conversations with them - it's largely up to myself to establish some kind of evidence the sale is not occurring - "paper trail" is one term they used which I like, as there have been a series of inconsistencies in their correspondence with myself.

One of them inconsistencies being - their claim that "the new buyer wishes for vacant property".

That would of course indicate that - there is a new buyer.

From that point of view - could I request documentation to that effect?
Is that up to me, or the RTB?

The dude at Threshold seemed to suggest that, the RTB don't really go seeking information, but rather work with what they're provided with.

That would insinuate that, yes - it's up to me.

But - I seriously doubt the rental agent is going to willing disclose information that would blatantly contradict what they've just proposed in a sworn affidavit.

So the word - "subpoena" was used.

How I would go about "subpoena'ing" information from a rental agent - any insights??

I guess that may be a question for the RTB?

runawaybishop

Sadly threshold are useless. You could lodge a case with rtb on the invalid notices alone.

Get any requests from the agency in writing. Once legal notice is served etc you will need to move out. Keep an eye to see if the house is for sale or rented out. If it isn't sold then they must offer it to you to rent again. If they do not the RTB will sort them out.

Alternatively gather any evidence you can that the LL is trying an illegal eviction and lodge a case with RTB before you have to vacate.

FakePie

runawaybishop wrote: »

Sadly threshold are useless. You could lodge a case with rtb on the invalid notices alone.

Get any requests from the agency in writing. Once legal notice is served etc you will need to move out. Keep an eye to see if the house is for sale or rented out. If it isn't sold then they must offer it to you to rent again. If they do not the RTB will sort them out.

Alternatively gather any evidence you can that the LL is trying an illegal eviction and lodge a case with RTB before you have to vacate.

That case is in assessment phase with the RTB currently.

I was informed by the RTB that, once a dispute has been opened, it basically puts a halt on proceedings at to notice of termination, unless adjudication has been completed.

And that takes normally 7 to 8 weeks.

Was the dude at RTB talking out his hat?


To me, a sworn affidavit of "intention to sell", means less than squat.

You can swear to having done something - not as to your intention to do something.

If the sale papers were signed, sealed and delivered - okay - then have a lawyer swear he saw them, validated them, and then we'll put his oath to the test by having the RTB examine the papers of sale.

But, "I swear it's something I will do in the future"??

How is that even admissible?

GGTrek

FakePie wrote: »

runawaybishop wrote: »

Sadly threshold are useless. You could lodge a case with rtb on the invalid notices alone.

Get any requests from the agency in writing. Once legal notice is served etc you will need to move out. Keep an eye to see if the house is for sale or rented out. If it isn't sold then they must offer it to you to rent again. If they do not the RTB will sort them out.

Alternatively gather any evidence you can that the LL is trying an illegal eviction and lodge a case with RTB before you have to vacate.

That case is in assessment phase with the RTB currently.

I was informed by the RTB that, once a dispute has been opened, it basically puts a halt on proceedings at to notice of termination, unless adjudication has been completed.

And that takes normally 7 to 8 weeks.

Was the dude at RTB talking out his hat?


To me, a sworn affidavit of "intention to sell", means less than squat.

You can swear to having done something - not as to your intention to do something.

If the sale papers were signed, sealed and delivered - okay - then have a lawyer swear he saw them, validated them, and then we'll put his oath to the test by having the RTB examine the papers of sale.

But, "I swear it's something I will do in the future"??

How is that even admissible?

I believe the actions of the agent of your landlord to be unjustified, however if you go with the arguments quoted to an RTB adjudication where a solicitor or a barrister will adjudicate, you will get a nasty wake-up on your ideas of what is admissible or not!

FakePie

GGTrek wrote: »

I believe the actions of the agent of your landlord to be unjustified, however if you go with the arguments quoted to an RTB adjudication where a solicitor or a barrister will adjudicate, you will get a nasty wake-up on your ideas of what is admissible or not!

Sure - in regards to admissibility of the Declaration - that was more so just conjecture on my part.

However, my primary concern from here is, moving forward with a Subpoena as to attaining the papers of sale, which demonstrate the sale of property.

Will it be up to myself to do that, or will the RTB - can and will they do it on my behalf? 


And as for a halt on notice of termination during adjudication - is that in fact the case?

C3PO

FakePie wrote: »

However, my primary concern from here is, moving forward with a Subpoena as to attaining the papers of sale, which demonstrate the sale of property.

I'm beginning to wonder whether this thread is a wind-up?

FakePie

C3PO wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder whether this thread is a wind-up?

You understand what's potentially at stake here?

Me being unjustly turfed out of my apartment - in this current market - could well leave me homeless, and forced to stay at a shelter - I kid you not; at the very least, move to another town/city with more affordable rent prices.

It's a genuine query.

I'm a rental disputes blank slate.

I have been informed that I am obliged to present information to the RTB - they won't go looking for it on my behalf.

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

With all that being said - where does that leave me?
How can I approach this situation such that I don't have to vacate - and attempt to prove the property was in fact not sold, and was re-rented - after I've moved out?

Pelvis

You can't. Once you receive valid notice of termination then you have to leave at the end of the notice period.

Claw Hammer

FakePie wrote: »

I have been informed that I am obliged to present information to the RTB - they won't go looking for it on my behalf.

Quite right.

FakePie wrote: »

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

Quite right.

FakePie wrote: »

With all that being said - where does that leave me?

After you have exhausted the appeal process - out.

FakePie wrote: »

How can I approach this situation such that I don't have to vacate - and attempt to prove the property was in fact not sold, and was re-rented - after I've moved out?

You might start by getting proper legal advice. A good lawyer might be able to spin things out for you.

C3PO

FakePie wrote: »

I have no doubt this "sale of property" is a fabrication on behalf of the rental agents - therefore, if I personally request to view the papers of sale, I'm obviously not going to be obliged.

But you don't actually know this - you just suspect that this is the case (and you are possibly correct!)
But the only way you can find out is if you leave and the apartment is put back on the rental market by it's current owner - the RTB has nothing to work on otherwise!

spaceHopper

Start looking, if you find somewhere well and good. In the mean time, write to the LL and solistor, acknlodege the letter and state that you have enjoyed living in the aparment and area, should they change their mind about selling you would welcome the chance to rent it again. Make sure there is an email and phone number in letter.

That basically means they won't be able to rent it to somebody else with out offering it to you first, and can't clamin at a leter RTB case they they had now way of contacting you.

FakePie

spaceHopper wrote: »

Start looking, if you find somewhere well and good. In the mean time, write to the LL and solistor, acknlodege the letter and state that you have enjoyed living in the aparment and area, should they change their mind about selling you would welcome the chance to rent it again. Make sure there is an email and phone number in letter.

That basically means they won't be able to rent it to somebody else with out offering it to you first, and can't clamin at a leter RTB case they they had now way of contacting you.

There's basically no where else available right now - short of moving to another town, which I may have to consider, short of spending however long necessary in the homeless shelter until a place comes up.

I've already written to the rental agent requesting lease renewal - they have my contact details.

FakePie

C3PO wrote: »

But you don't actually know this - you just suspect that this is the case (and you are possibly correct!)
But the only way you can find out is if you leave and the apartment is put back on the rental market by it's current owner - the RTB has nothing to work on otherwise!

If it is re-let - how do I prove that?

Go to the agents and ask - "by chance, has that property been re-let and not sold like was written in the sworn affidavit you mailed me - thus leaving you guys potentially liable?".

The other way to know for sure is to view papers of sale - which state the new owner.

If the papers of propriety state the same owner three months from now is the same as this current moment - then I have a leg to stand on.

However - how do I access the papers of propriety?


I kind of feel I might be going in circles at this point.

If there's any novel insights - I'm sure glad to hear them.

Otherwise - I'll keep you guys updated to further proceedings in due course.

surrender monkey

I have no idea what "papers of propriety" are but once a property is registered in the land registry anyone can check the ownership of it on the land registry website on payment of €5. If the property is sold then the transfer will lodged in the land registry and will show up as a "dealing pending" also any sale of a property should be listed on the property price register within 44 days of the date of sale.

You can't obtain the "papers of sale" if the property is being sold to someone else. Id be checking daft.ie and all the agents websites in the area every couple of days. Set up an alert on daft for properties to let or for sale in the area so you won't miss anything. As a previous poster said you will eventually need to move so you should prepare yourself for that. You also need to realise that the landlord is serving notice that they intend to enter into a contract for sale within three months, they do not have to complete the sale within the three month timeframe.