AH Gone to the Dogs

anewme · 15-01-2020 9:38pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

They only need a gender balance if the current moderators are what you’re accusing them of being.

I've not accused them of anything.

Nor has anyone else from what I can read.

People feel the forum could be improved with an improved gender balance. I believe that too.

15-01-2020 9:45pm

Surely there are enough mods of the forum and when the time comes to pick another one it should be based on who is a good fit rather than gender? Of course there are enough women posters about the place that that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

As for the misogyny? I would need to go looking.

Fr_Dougal · 15-01-2020 9:45pm

anewme wrote: »

Ok. Go to the thread about the woman who fell over the jostle stone.

Every second post needs to be deleted.

I have no time for people who push false claims.

However, the comments on this thread are low brow filth. Between saying people living in Dublin 1 are lowlife, her family are scummy, poking fun at people who just have liked a photo, saying she has an STI.

I note there is no such vitriol - the solicitor(s) who constantly take on these makey up cases. Probably because hes Male and i d reckon doesn't live in Dublin 1.

Edited: I see it's been cleaned up pretty promptly, thanks.

May I ask when you first reported the thread?

Arghus · 15-01-2020 9:49pm

anewme wrote: »

Ok. Go to the thread about the woman who fell over the jostle stone.

Every second post needs to be deleted.

I have no time for people who push false claims.

However, the comments on this thread are low brow filth. Between saying people living in Dublin 1 are lowlife, her family are scummy, poking fun at people who just have liked a photo, saying she has an STI.

I note there is no such vitriol - the solicitor(s) who constantly take on these makey up cases. Probably because hes Male and i d reckon doesn't live in Dublin 1.

Edited: I see it's been cleaned up pretty promptly, thanks.

AH improved markedly for a period after CA was opened up. It was less of a hostile and reactionary place, but it seems to have degenerated again recently. I'm amazed by the sheer amount knuckle dragging moronic comments I read in there on a daily basis.

The thread you mention is a good example. Sure, I can understand people not being the biggest fan of the woman in question, but people go way overboard and it's like that with loads of threads now - often crossing over into blatant racism in many instances. You can seemingly say just about anything about travellers and there isn't an eye blinked.

I don't know how people can deny that there's a problem with misogyny in AH and further afield. There absolutely is. Now, okay, misogyny is just one of the many flavours of bile usually on display, but that doesn't mean that people who complain about it don't have a point.

I use Boards a lot daily, but lately I do find myself questioning if it's worth bothering with anymore. So much of what is posted here is worthless drivel. The place just feels increasingly negative and the standard of debate sure isn't getting any higher. Personally, I wonder if it's actually beneficial mentally to read the likes of AH on a regular basis.

Even reading the back and forth here is headache inducing

anewme · 15-01-2020 9:51pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

May I ask when you first reported the thread?

Today when I read it.

15-01-2020 9:55pm

I had a quick look at the 'jostle stone' thread. Taking shots at the woman's appearance and rating her out of 10. It's all very teenager and horrible.

It was locked up and I assume some posts were deleted. What else is to be done? Handing out bans? A sticky telling everyone to be nice?

anewme · 15-01-2020 10:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I had a quick look at the 'jostle stone' thread. Taking shots at the woman's appearance and rating her out of 10. It's all very teenager and horrible.

It was locked up and I assume some posts were deleted. What else is to be done? Handing out bans? A sticky telling everyone to be nice?

I updated my post to say it was actioned promptly, once reported, as you can see.

There is a big difference between being nice and saying people from Dublin 1 are lowlife and dishonest, that the womans family( who have done nothing) are scumbags, that single mothers are scam artists, publishing the womans photos and details of her friends ( who have done nothing btw), saying the woman has an STI, saying you can see her labia and that's just the start of it.

What you are reading now is a 90 percent watered down basis.

People posting hate should be banned, why shouldn't they?

hullaballoo · 15-01-2020 10:48pm

Admin: this is starting to look like tit-for-tat bickering rather than feedback, leaving aside the fact that this forum is not supposed to be for forum-specific issues for a moment.

Please bring things back on to feedback or this thread will no longer be fit for purpose for this forum.

Raconteuse · 15-01-2020 11:02pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

By saying the problem stems from 12 male moderators is just a thinly veiled way of saying all men are misogynists. At best you’re just slandering 12 people. Absolute tripe.

Crikey that's some leap.

Surely it's obvious that all they mean is: a female moderator would see misogyny more easily. Nobody said the male moderators did anything misogynistic, because they obviously didn't. The problem doesn't stem from the moderators either - who said that? It stems from whomever is posting it. And it's being addressed.

15-01-2020 11:14pm

Raconteuse wrote: »

Crikey that's some leap.

Surely it's obvious that all they mean is: a female moderator would see misogyny more easily. Nobody said the male moderators did anything misogynistic, because they obviously didn't. The problem doesn't stem from the moderators either - who said that? It stems from whomever is posting it. And it's being addressed.

A woman would see it easier? What?

Raconteuse · 15-01-2020 11:17pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

A woman would see it easier? What?

That's what they said. Well yeah in general people naturally notice things more if it's aimed at the group they're part of. What's so shocking about saying that?

anewme · 15-01-2020 11:32pm

Niko Hollow Threesome wrote: »

As a starting point, the issue of zero female representation on the team overseeing the largest forum on Boards should be addressed, IMO.

This is one of the original posts (by a man) who can see a problem with no female representation. It makes perfect sense. Another poster said they raised the issue previously and it has fallen on deaf ears.

I'm surprised that people would not see this as a positive action.

Fr_Dougal · 15-01-2020 11:59pm

Raconteuse wrote: »

That's what they said. Well yeah in general people naturally notice things more if it's aimed at the group they're part of. What's so shocking about saying that?

Probably explains why you can’t see your own misandry.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 12:13am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Probably explains why you can’t see your own misandry.

Good Lord, my misandry? Where on earth have I said anything man hating?

If it's the thing I said above (because I can't think of anything else) you cannot be serious. "At very least, female posters will have reasonable justification in believing that their complaints about misogyny are falling on deaf ears" - this is what a man, Permabear, said.

I and others see misogyny - some guys don't. Flat out deny it. Surely it's fair to say that this is likely because they're men so it doesn't register with them because it doesn't affect them as they're not women? There is absolutely nothing negative intended by that.

I don't mind either way whether there are female mods appointed or not btw.

If I was told I'm not seeing misandry because it doesn't affect me, no way would I think that's misogyny. If I've genuinely come across as sexist towards men (and I emphasise "genuinely" because I really doubt it) my apologies - it absolutely wasn't my intent as I certainly do not think badly of the male sex, only some individuals - male or female.

Arghus · 16-01-2020 12:32am

I find it very telling that the only place in life where I ever hear or read the word "misandry" is on Boards, where it's bandied about fairly liberally.

16-01-2020 12:43am

Misogyny does exist in After Hours. It exists all over the world. I don't have a solution to it. Within society we can strive to raise.our children to treat women with decency and respect, we can ensure there is awareness around what constitutes misogyny.

AH by its nature is more open to certain posters than say Animals and Pets. There is more space for unsavoury opinions. A zero tolerance approach may be needed but the trouble with that can be mods being big footed and lacking good judgement.

If I may use a recent infraction as an example. A poster received a yellow card for a comment about Brad Pitts partners all being ugly. Baffling move by the mods I thought. Is that an example of misogyny though? And if it is will I get a card if I post that I think Robbie Williams wife looks like a man?

Where is the line. One person's horrible opinion will be another person's misogynist.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 12:53am

Arghus wrote: »

I find it very telling that the only place in life where I ever hear or read the word "misandry" is on Boards, where it's bandied about fairly liberally.

There is no question that it exists though.

anewme · 16-01-2020 12:58am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Misogyny does exist in After Hours. It exists all over the world. I don't have a solution to it. Within society we can strive to raise.our children to treat women with decency and respect, we can ensure there is awareness around what constitutes misogyny.

AH by its nature is more open to certain posters than say Animals and Pets. There is more space for unsavoury opinions. A zero tolerance approach may be needed but the trouble with that can be mods being big footed and lacking good judgement.

If I may use a recent infraction as an example. A poster received a yellow card for a comment about Brad Pitts partners all being ugly. Baffling move by the mods I thought. Is that an example of misogyny though? And if it is will I get a card if I post that I think Robbie Williams wife looks like a man?

Where is the line. One person's horrible opinion will be another person's misogynist.

If you post that Robbie William's wife has an STI, is that misogyny?

And what about all the crap ...Why do women ( insert random insult) ......? threads.

Example from August 2019

Are you afraid of a real woman? OPENING POST

You know the way overweight women are beginning to say things like this these days? Am I too real for you?

Jimmy Carr had a good comeback for this one in his stand up show in Edinburgh. But I'm after forgetting what it was! Did anyone else hear it by any chance? I've always found it kind of irritating to hear someone making excuses for acting as if being fat is the norm.

Example 2 at the same time

... why are women so annoying? OPENING POST

Ok I’m sure a couple of men can be assholes occasionally. And I know that not every woman is, just the majority.

My girlfriend had a hospital appointment and as a kind, generous and overall just super guy I said I would bring her. She says to me the night before “make sure you wear something nice”.

Oh did the letter from the doctor say it was a black tie event? Is the prognosis or advice or medicine prescribed going to be different depending on my clothes?
Firstly, do you think I’m going to turn up in pajamas ffs? Secondly, I went to work in the morning so she knew I’d be smartly dressed. “Oh don’t wear that wine jumper you wear to work”. For someone who is so concerned about what I’m wearing, she hadn’t noticed I haven’t worn that for months and it’s a nice jumper anyway.

Her comment had no impact on what I wore but when I collected her looking well, I’m sure she thought to herself, oh he listened to me, thank god I said something. Of course at the hospital most people were just wearing jeans, tshirt etc.

This isn’t just my girlfriend. You’d see plenty of examples of this kind of sh!t on tv or on nights out or in supermarkets. I’ve worked in a number of offices and plenty of women would tell stories about the stupid things they said to their partner. So what’s the reason for these kind of pointless comments? They enjoy telling people what to do, want to be the boss? Just enjoy annoying men?

Theres numerous posts like this all across Boards.ie. A recent one on the television forum about a Tv show centred on Una Healys saggy vagina. Posters complained and left the thread, but those posts remained.

Why are all these gross generalisation why do women....threads not get shut down?

I believe Boards needs a good clean up across all Forums.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 12:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

Misogyny does exist in After Hours. It exists all over the world. I don't have a solution to it. Within society we can strive to raise.our children to treat women with decency and respect, we can ensure there is awareness around what constitutes misogyny.

AH by its nature is more open to certain posters than say Animals and Pets. There is more space for unsavoury opinions. A zero tolerance approach may be needed but the trouble with that can be mods being big footed and lacking good judgement.

If I may use a recent infraction as an example. A poster received a yellow card for a comment about Brad Pitts partners all being ugly. Baffling move by the mods I thought. Is that an example of misogyny though? And if it is will I get a card if I post that I think Robbie Williams wife looks like a man?

Where is the line. One person's horrible opinion will be another person's misogynist.

It can't be wiped out of course but if a person is making anti woman comments constantly, it's not unreasonable for it to get women's backs up. Why would anyone want to keep going on like that about an entire sex anyway? What does it bring to the table? It's not discussion.

hatrickpatrick · 16-01-2020 1:38am

Raconteuse wrote: »

It can't be wiped out of course but if a person is making anti woman comments constantly, it's not unreasonable for it to get women's backs up. Why would anyone want to keep going on like that about an entire sex anyway? What does it bring to the table? It's not discussion.

But nobody is doing that. The Royal Family is something which pisses off a gigantic proportion of people for various reasons and as such if one of them is in the news, a lot of people will happily throw the kitchen sink at them in order to vent about how utterly, mind-numbingly annoying it is seeing these muppets dominating headlines and discussions. That's not a gendered thing, but the media has tended to focus more on gossip regarding Middleton and Markle, and it's a massive f*cking pain in the hole for anyone who couldn't give a bollocks about a bunch of foreign rich people who are only famous for archaic and malicious reasons.

That's my take on it anyway.

16-01-2020 1:46am

Anewme, I'm scratching my head here. I really don't know. If I said Robbie Williams wife had an STI? And hospital appointments. Are you quoting a thread?

16-01-2020 1:54am

Raconteuse wrote: »

It can't be wiped out of course but if a person is making anti woman comments constantly, it's not unreasonable for it to get women's backs up. Why would anyone want to keep going on like that about an entire sex anyway? What does it bring to the table? It's not discussion.

It isn't discussion no. So in order to clean up the site what should happen? For every thread that has the potential for a few to come in with anti-women comments would a mod need to post a warning in the OP?

anewme · 16-01-2020 2:10am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anewme, I'm scratching my head here. I really don't know. If I said Robbie Williams wife had an STI? And hospital appointments. Are you quoting a thread?

No, but if someone said Robbie William's wife had an STI in order to belittle her, would that be misogyny?

You said you haven't seen any misogyny, so im quoting
a thread from earlier today. The jostle stone one.

A poster went onto the womans Facebook page, went through her photos and published them on Boards with belittling comments. He then said she had an STI.

The thread was not about STI's or hospital appointments.

The endless why do women...threads are further examples. Cut them off at Post 1: "sorry, we don't want gross generalisations around here, next !'

Not sure how Una Healys saggy vagina or how many people would ride her impacts her presenting skills.? I don't recall in the late late show thread comments about Ryan Tubridy's penis.

It's all belittling put downs against women and it needs to be stamped out.

If you cant see the misogny, then you cant see it. Others see it as clear as day. This thread is for feedback and to give examples.

How are STI and saggy vagina comments different 'opinions' that should be given any credence or adding any positive value to anything.?

It gets tiresome after a while.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 2:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

It isn't discussion no. So in order to clean up the site what should happen? For every thread that has the potential for a few to come in with anti-women comments would a mod need to post a warning in the OP?

You keep making these suggestions that nobody has suggested though. If people are dragging a thread off topic with acting the tool, just "cut it out" is enough. Why would I look for anything else? And that's being done now.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 2:42am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But nobody is doing that. The Royal Family is something which pisses off a gigantic proportion of people for various reasons and as such if one of them is in the news, a lot of people will happily throw the kitchen sink at them in order to vent about how utterly, mind-numbingly annoying it is seeing these muppets dominating headlines and discussions. That's not a gendered thing, but the media has tended to focus more on gossip regarding Middleton and Markle, and it's a massive f*cking pain in the hole for anyone who couldn't give a bollocks about a bunch of foreign rich people who are only famous for archaic and malicious reasons.

That's my take on it anyway.

Dunno why you're saying this to me. The absolute one and only objection I have is to the way a woman is being attacked for no reason. There are no grounds for it so: zone in on her being a woman. Must be a gold digger, social climber, bitch, actress so sociopath, a demanding nightmare for her husband, a diva. No evidence of any but shur she's a woman. And the abuse is coming from those who love the royals. It's the opposite to what you're saying. I don't care which woman it is - I am only critical of an orchestrated smear campaign, whoever is on the receiving end. Check out Brian Cathcart's research on this unethical press behaviour. And you said nobody was doing same on After Hours - they absolutely were. It's the people who have no time for monarchy and detest the little Englander sycophancy towards the royals who share the view I have.

16-01-2020 2:47am

im not sure that your bar for misogyny of "criticism of a woman" is going to convince anyone not already seeking to be convinced

and i understand that the criticism isn't based on very much at all, but hey neither is a lot of criticism of anyone in the public eye!

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 2:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

im not sure that your bar for misogyny of "criticism of a woman" is going to convince anyone not already seeking to be convinced

and i understand that the criticism isn't based on very much at all, but hey neither is a lot of criticism of anyone in the public eye!

"Attacks on her and making stuff up about her because she's a woman" is more accurate.

Mere criticism of a woman is hardly misogyny.

16-01-2020 2:56am

"because she is a woman"

yes i know you believe this. but step aside that for a moment and you have to admit it's not really a statement that does anything more in terms of making a case.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 3:45am

Dunno what to tell you. If you can't see how misogyny is at the root of relentless gender-based attacks (all the standard terms for that purpose like gold digger, social climber, bitch etc for no reason other than she's female because there isn't any evidence to support these claims) that's your right.

I mean if there was evidence for the above, it wouldn't be gender based, it would be behaviour and character based, but there isn't.

16-01-2020 10:16am

Raconteuse wrote: »

You keep making these suggestions that nobody has suggested though. If people are dragging a thread off topic with acting the tool, just "cut it out" is enough. Why would I look for anything else? And that's being done now.

I thought we were here discussing what can be done?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 16-01-2020 11:33am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

By saying the problem stems from 12 male moderators is just a thinly veiled way of saying all men are misogynists.

That's nonsense. I don't believe all men are misogynists. However, I also don't believe it's defensible in the year 2020 to have the site's largest forum moderated by a team of 12 men and no women. The optics of that ratio look terrible. The very existence of a large all-male moderating team also gives credence to some female posters' belief that AH is a male-dominated fiefdom where issues of misogyny and sexism won't be taken seriously.

Fr_Dougal · 16-01-2020 12:02pm

Raconteuse wrote: »

Dunno what to tell you. If you can't see how misogyny is at the root of relentless gender-based attacks (all the standard terms for that purpose like gold digger, social climber, bitch etc for no reason other than she's female because there isn't any evidence to support these claims) that's your right.

I mean if there was evidence for the above, it wouldn't be gender based, it would be behaviour and character based, but there isn't.

A lot of those comments were coming from women. Is that misogyny?

From what I can see, a couple of posters here were asked for examples of misogyny that they reported and still haven’t provided them.

Mods can’t be omnipresent, they need posters to help them deal with the crap and report posts. If you’re not reporting posts you have no right to come to feedback and complain that there’s no moderation.

The thread that has misogyny, once reported, was dealt with swiftly.

But that’s not good enough, because men aren’t capable of spotting misogyny because they’re...male.

So the very same people who are complaining about misogyny are making sexist remarks themselves.

You couldn’t make it up.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 2:29pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

A lot of those comments were coming from women. Is that misogyny?

Crikey, I already covered this in detail yet you repeat it? Yes. It is.

From what I can see, a couple of posters here were asked for examples of misogyny that they reported and still haven’t provided them.

From what you saw earlier. You don't know what has happened since.

Mods can’t be omnipresent, they need posters to help them deal with the crap and report posts. If you’re not reporting posts you have no right to come to feedback and complain that there’s no moderation.

People were constantly reporting posts and nothing was being done - that was the problem. It is now being addressed, as has been acknowledged. The thread has now moved to a different place of posters demanding that we explain ourselves and picking everything apart and even claiming I'm a misandrist! But plus ca change...

The thread that has misogyny, once reported, was dealt with swiftly.

Yes it was. As acknowledged.

But that’s not good enough, because men aren’t capable of spotting misogyny because they’re...male.

So the very same people who are complaining about misogyny are making sexist remarks themselves.

Stop pretending that I didn't explain myself in that regard. It looks spiteful as hell. That was in relation to what Permabear and anewme said about there being no female moderators and the bullsh1t allegations that followed - that they were claiming all men are misogynists. The twisting and dishonesty here are incredible. All they meant was more female moderators might spot misogyny more easily. It's pure and utter trying to get one over me to say that that's sexist of me. And the irony - denial of certain misogyny yet then pretending to be insulted when I say maybe I see it more easily because I'm female.

It's being sorted now anyway - thanks mods. This thread has gone to a different place of just picking apart and twisting what we say. Quelle surprise.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 2:36pm

Arghus wrote: »

I don't know how people can deny that there's a problem with misogyny in AH and further afield. There absolutely is. Now, okay, misogyny is just one of the many flavours of bile usually on display, but that doesn't mean that people who complain about it don't have a point.

This in a nut-shell. Just because people don't (or won't) see it because it doesn't affect them (so misandrist of me apparently!) doesn't mean it wasn't there.

It's being looked into now anyway.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-01-2020 5:09pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Probably explains why you can’t see your own misandry.

That makes the kind of sense that doesn’t.

EmmetSpiceland · 16-01-2020 5:16pm

It’s tough being a male in “After Hours” these days.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-01-2020 5:21pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

A lot of those comments were coming from women. Is that misogyny?

From what I can see, a couple of posters here were asked for examples of misogyny that they reported and still haven’t provided them.

Mods can’t be omnipresent, they need posters to help them deal with the crap and report posts. If you’re not reporting posts you have no right to come to feedback and complain that there’s no moderation.

The thread that has misogyny, once reported, was dealt with swiftly.

But that’s not good enough, because men aren’t capable of spotting misogyny because they’re...male.

So the very same people who are complaining about misogyny are making sexist remarks themselves.

You couldn’t make it up.

Yes, women can be misogynists. You asked that before but nobody replied. Yes, misogynist comments can come from women.

Examples have been provided. The jostle stone thread. Did you not read those posts? That thread has thankfully been closed.

Another example - a user was threadbanned from the Harry and Meghan for repeated misogynistic comments. Something was done there too. That’s great. It was probably down to reporting.

But the jostle stone thread wasn’t closed until it was brought up on this thread. It shouldn’t have to come to that. And I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m reluctant to report too many posts as I fear a “Yer wan again” ennui. I don’t want reporting often to be held against me. People are human and I could see that happening.

But anyway, you can’t say that examples weren’t given. They were. I don’t know if you skimmed over them. If so, that’s on you. Examples were given.

Raconteuse · 16-01-2020 5:51pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yes, women can be misogynists. You asked that before but nobody replied. Yes, misogynist comments can come from women.

I answered him when he asked it first. I said I think it's even worse when it comes from women. He then took issue with that, so I clarified further.

Don't want to start some spat with Dougal as he's a decent guy and great contributor but I don't think he is being the fairest on this thread.

I've no doubt I'm definitely a "yer wan again" person but I really don't care.

This issue is being addressed anyway. All good.

anewme · 16-01-2020 8:11pm

For feedback on the jostle stone thread, I noted it here as evidence of the level of misogyny that exists on boards. Given that people here were saying "nah, you must be imagining it, I can see no misogny on boards. I'd have to really look for it. " Well, there it was, a whole thread of it in all it's gory glory. I had reported it separately , so the mods in did a swift clean up, so by the time most people saw it, half the posts had been deleted. I hope enough people did see it all before it got decimated, as it was a perfect example of what people are referring to.

Beasty · 16-01-2020 10:15pm

anewme wrote: »

For feedback on the jostle stone thread, I noted it here as evidence of the level of misogyny that exists on boards. Given that people here were saying "nah, you must be imagining it, I can see no misogny on boards. I'd have to really look for it. " Well, there it was, a whole thread of it in all it's gory glory. I had reported it separately , so the mods in did a swift clean up, so by the time most people saw it, half the posts had been deleted. I hope enough people did see it all before it got decimated, as it was a perfect example of what people are referring to.

So you are acknowledging the mods are dealing with things that get reported, which was my point earlier in the thread. Unlike the other poster, who did provide a single example from over a month ago, you have not yet provided me with examples of things you have reported that you feel have not been dealt with appropriately

MrMusician18 · 18-01-2020 4:08am

Ah here, the problem with AH is due to it being over run by a handful of individuals that are clearly controlling multiple accounts. And they are using these accounts for hostile right wing takeover of the forum.

It isn't misogyny on behalf of the volunteer mods, but the volume of posts and the number of problem accounts that's the issue. A few years ago I was very vocal about the standard of moderation in AH, back then it was far too strict. It's loose now, one might say too loose but I don't think that's the real issue now.

Moderation in a busy form needs to be paid. Volunteers cannot be expected to act consistently or indeed care about standards.

AH Gone to the Dogs

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