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Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

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    #32
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,708 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

    It hasn't . Most tech companies allowed this already. This isn't a new headline. They are now updating policies to formalise it. Unless you came from one of the locations they have a local office in though then it's not happening anyway.

    Once again you will be moved to that geo for tax purposes. And any future decisions on pay will be related to that local HR pay rates not Dublin.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    It hasn't . Most tech companies allowed this already. This isn't a new headline. They are now updating policies to formalise it. Unless you came from one of the locations they have a local office in though then it's not happening anyway.

    Once again you will be moved to that geo for tax purposes. And any future decisions on pay will be related to that local HR pay rates not Dublin.

    If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.


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    #34
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

    Workers are going to move to London to avoid high rents and supporting a welfare class? The South-East is the only area of the UK which makes a net profit.

    Every other area of the UK stays afloat on subsidies and welfare - entire populations in the north of England are in a welfare trap.

    If you're unhappy because the UK tax brackets have kept up with monetary inflation better than Irish ones then why not just say that?


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    #35
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,696 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

    Can you just state what Facebook are changing with this.

    What is possible now that wasnt possible before.

    You could already move offices with facebook to move to a different country.


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    #36
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    And there was me thinking that Joe Biden pumping the global corporate tax rate to 15 per cent was the end of our tech boom

    ah well


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    #37
    85603
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    If so, great. Scummy company. May whatever tech paradigm it takes to wipe them off this planet happen sooner rather than later.
    We made our money. Adios data rapists.

    Edit: feel free to take some tech bro hipsters with ya.


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    #38
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Del2005 wrote: »
    They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

    The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

    No companies have reduced pay due to no commuting costs and WFH.


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    #39
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Big tech can, which are huge employers in Dublin. Those of us working for Irish companies can still opt to leave Dublin, as many of my work colleagues have already done.

    Stop living in denial.

    I'm working for big tech in Dublin, its incredibly restrictive as to where you can work, because there either needs to be a permanent legal entity in that country OR your current legal entity is deemed to have established a permanent location by your working there and as such becomes liable to pay corportate tax in that location.

    Your Dublin entity specifically does not want to be paying tax in other countries, thats why they setup in Dublin in the first place!

    The entity in the other locations would be tiny and not signing multi million dollar contracts.

    Stop living in your own made up reality.


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    #40
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    talulon wrote: »
    This is not completely true. American tech companies pay higher salaries here in Ireland compared with the cost of living and in some cases just higher salaries in order to attract people to work in this country.

    Sure, but they are not paying the same as they pay their employees in the states.
    Facebook (and every other company) will alter your salary if you move country.


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    So I'm in tech and it's not hugely unusual for people to work abroad for a few months of the year tbh. Obviously if you're abroad to point where tax changes etc that needs to be handled. It's only ever been a big problem in places I've worked if they're in a more controversial country. Eg China

    Don't think this amounts to much of a tech bubble exploding either.. Roles are in abundance at the moment and I can't see that changing any time soon.


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    #42
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So I'm in tech and it's not hugely unusual for people to work abroad for a few months of the year tbh. Obviously if you're abroad to point where tax changes etc that needs to be handled. It's only ever been a big problem in places I've worked if they're in a more controversial country. Eg China

    Don't think this amounts to much of a tech bubble exploding either.. Roles are in abundance at the moment and I can't see that changing any time soon.

    Most of the time this happens because HR and finance are not made aware and the managers etc are not aware of the tax implications.
    It is often the case that foreign employees take a holiday in home country and then work from there for a couple of weeks (especially if home is far away)
    but there is no concrete definition on what defines a permanent location, its up to each country. India for example are pretty notorious for going after corporation tax in these scenarious.


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    #43
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

    Because for a start an Italian won’t get a permit to live in the UK. Most of your assertions are not even remotely based on facts nor knowledge of the industry.


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    #44
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,504 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Facebook have a huge HQ building under construction in D4 at the moment for 1000's of employees incidentally.


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    #45
    Yakov P. Golyadkin
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭Yakov P. Golyadkin


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Facebook have a huge HQ building under construction in D4 at the moment for 1000's of employees incidentally.

    We can use it to house the 'welfare class' referred to in the OP. All the employees are going to live in London.


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    #46
    85603
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »
    We can use it to house the 'welfare class' referred to in the OP. All the employees are going to live in London.

    D4 is too far out of town for them.

    And youd be breakin up deh communitie.


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    #47
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    Many MANY companies already do this and, as many have said, pay will be locally benchmarked. Do you really think Facebook (Or any company) are going to pay Dublin high-end wages for someone living in Spain or Portugal or wherever where the going equivalent rate is much lower?

    I have two friends who availed of this in two different large tech companies and that's what happened. The companies offered people the chance to move to another country and made it abundantly clear that they would be paid the local equivalent for their skill level/job position/experience. For them, it was an attractive offer because they retained their job. They held onto some perks such as additional holidays for long service, pensions etc. but they were not on the same wage as Dublin.

    This is not a new practice. AT ALL. And will change nothing. At ALL.


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    #48
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    How does tax work if you're based abroad? Will you have to pay double tax?

    In London, for example, tenants have to pay council tax which you don't have to pay in Ireland.


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    #49
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    Also....

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57425636
    .... The company has told employees "anyone whose role can be done remotely can request remote work".

    ..... Facebook's offices are expected to open to full capacity in October, but employees without permission to work remotely will have to come in at least half the time.....

    So, yeah. Nothing new.


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    #50
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,678 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    How does tax work if you're based abroad? Will you have to pay double tax?

    In London, for example, tenants have to pay council tax which you don't have to pay in Ireland.


    What do you mean by double tax?

    If you are living and working in a different country you will of course have to pay the taxes required by that country and locality.


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    #51
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    VinLieger wrote: »
    What do you mean by double tax?

    If you are living and working in a different country you will of course have to pay the taxes required by that country and locality.

    I mean you're earning the money in one country, say Ireland, you have to pay income tax, PRSI etc. do you also have to pay income tax/social security contributions in the country you're based in too? That would amount to one hell of a tax bill.

    And if you're only paying the main tax in the country you earn the money, how can you avail of your resident country's services, like health, childcare and education?


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    #52
    zerosugarbuzz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭zerosugarbuzz


    85603 wrote: »
    D4 is too far out of town for them.

    And youd be breakin up deh communitie.

    Don't get dizzy now, looking down from such a great height.


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    #53
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,678 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    I mean you're earning the money in one country, say Ireland, you have to pay income tax, PRSI etc. do you also have to pay income tax/social security contributions in the country you're based in too? That would amount to one hell of a tax bill.

    And if you're only paying the main tax in the country you earn the money, how can you avail of your resident country's services, like health, childcare and education?


    This should answer your questions https://www.revenue.ie/en/life-events-and-personal-circumstances/moving-to-or-from-ireland/leaving-ireland/if-you-are-going-abroad-to-work.aspx.

    Also you dont need to pay taxes or live here to avail of healthcare, but i dont understand why you would need to use childcare or education if you were living in another country?


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    #54
    ebbsy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    I mean you're earning the money in one country, say Ireland, you have to pay income tax, PRSI etc. do you also have to pay income tax/social security contributions in the country you're based in too? That would amount to one hell of a tax bill.

    And if you're only paying the main tax in the country you earn the money, how can you avail of your resident country's services, like health, childcare and education?

    You get a tax credit for both countries.


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    #55
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    VinLieger wrote: »
    This should answer your questions https://www.revenue.ie/en/life-events-and-personal-circumstances/moving-to-or-from-ireland/leaving-ireland/if-you-are-going-abroad-to-work.aspx.

    Also you dont need to pay taxes or live here to avail of healthcare, but i dont understand why you would need to use childcare or education if you were living in another country?

    Ah okay. And I meant if you were getting free childcare while living in, say France, while paying your taxes in Ireland. But your link explains things a bit better.


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    #56
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,558 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    How does tax work if you're based abroad? Will you have to pay double tax?

    In London, for example, tenants have to pay council tax which you don't have to pay in Ireland.
    You pay tax where you are tax resident. You may also have to pay tax in another jurisdiction if you spend a certain amount of time working in that jurisdiction (For example Canada will tax you if you spend a single day in the country working - other countries may have a threshhold of 1 or 2 months)

    Any tax paid in the other jurisdiction is creditable against tax due on the same income in the country of tax residence. Hence you should not pay double taxation but will end up paying the higher of the 2 rates on the relevant income

    A bigger issue here is the tax residence of the company (Facebook) and whether they end up creating taxable presences in those other countries. They will need to apply local employment taxes, but also will pay tax on profits earned in any "permanent establishment" (a tax concept defined in each individual tax jurisdiction, but generally established under OECD guidelines) will be taxed in that country. If it is deemed a branch of the Irish company then Irish tax is also chargeable, but that will usually be extinguished by the local tax paid


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    #57
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    i don,t think staff will be allowed work from home 5 days a week, maybe 3 or 4 days a week.
    i think facebook needs office in eu to comply with gdpr data regulations.
    the uk has left the eu .where are they going to go, taxs are higher in other countrys ,most citys have high rents in most countrys in the eu.
    its too early to say what will happen ,maybe we will know in 12 months time.


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    #58
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Beasty wrote: »
    (For example Canada will tax you if you spend a single day in the country working - other countries may have a threshhold of 1 or 2 months)

    How is that actually enforced in reality? So if I go for a business meeting in Canada that lasts a couple of days, I'm supposed to pay tax there?!


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    #59
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,558 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    arctictree wrote: »
    How is that actually enforced in reality? So if I go for a business meeting in Canada that lasts a couple of days, I'm supposed to pay tax there?!
    Yes - your employer is obliged to pay it over

    I've avoided Canada for that very reason. However my employer has significant operations in the US and this specific issue has arisen. The employer files appropriate returns and pays over any tax due

    I've no idea what checks they may do in, for example, immigration. I suspect many smaller employers are not aware of the specifics here. I have dealt with dozens of tax authorities over the years and this is the most extreme example I have encountered


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    #60
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?


    Because you need a visa to live in London?


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    #61
    Shebean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    We've at least one meat packing plant uses foreign workers who pay tax in their native country, because it's cheaper labour for the Irish company. Maybe Facebook are catching up?

    It will be interesting if it pans out that way. Imagine all the big tech companies based here but employing nobody? We'll see if all those jobs are the real reason we treat them so well on taxation.


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