Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

Peanut · 06-12-2005 3:27pm

I had thought of adding "If your argument is that it's the national language, then don't bother".

This has been gone through a million times already, but just to re-address your points :

- non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language.

- I don't believe it's our responsibility as a nation to ensure all are fluent Irish speakers. In fact, it's an absurd proposition.

- Speaking Irish does not make us what we are. I would like to see parts of our culture preserved, but not at the cost of my own personal development, thank you very much. Sorry if that seems selfish, but my primary responsibility is to myself, and not to a minority's nationalistic fetishes.

- There is nothing negative about being fluent in Irish. That's not the point being discussed.

- "..but a 'hate' of anything gives you a sort a tunnel view.." - this is true, next question, why do you think there are such widespread feelings? And they are widespread. Hint: It's not just because of the way it's taught.

ishmael whale · 06-12-2005 4:55pm

Can I first, in all honesty, say a word of thanks to Simu and the Moderators for allowing this thread to go on for so long. In fairness, the Gaeilge board is surely a place for people to share an interest in the language, rather than hold forth in English on what’s wrong with compulsory Irish.

I think Peanut is handling the points, so I won’t repeat. Just one little thought comes to mind.

GaryOR wrote:

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all

Indeed, because it’s a relic of a mindset that gave a higher priority to language revival than it did to education. In the end it failed miserably, and you’d be better off without it. It seems to have some kind of iconic value to Irish language activists which I don’t understand. Remember, from my perspective you are the one who see the compulsory aspect as the be all and end all.

The Irish language teaching establishment simply has not got a proud legacy. If you want to understand why compulsion is anathema to so many, try Tom Garvin’s ‘Preventing the Future’ to get a perspective on where the view you are defending originated.

I don’t doubt that Irish, like any language, can be taught in a way that benefits students. But if you want to undo the harm done by your predecessors you have to do what they have never done – listen to what English speakers are saying. Remove the compulsion, because that makes the language a pure chore and allows teaching standards to be poor as there’s a captive audience. And teach the language in English medium schools as if it was a foreign language. Even now, Irish textbooks in English medium schools have their instruction written in Irish with the result that many parents have no idea what the object of the book is.

nesf · 06-12-2005 7:07pm

I completely agree with people that the present system of teaching Irish is what is the main problem. However, people seem to think that you can change such a system overnight. You can't. If Irish is kept as compulsory, then many students who are presently in the education system will suffer from the same issues as they would have 5 years ago. Change in the education system will show results in 10-15 years time. Let's face it, changes at primary level (where it needs to start) will take a long time to mature.

Irish should not be compulsory for the Leaving and there is no good reason why in the present climate of the "points race" that one should be forced to take a subject that you are terribly under-prepared for. I had to take an eight subject to allow me to not be effected by Irish and German. Languages were never my strong point (other than English I was a HC student in these) and frankly I was not happy with a subject that I wasn't at least averaging an B1/A2 in. The points orientated nature of the leaving encouraged this. I came out of secondary with a grudge against Irish since it was the only subject I had to take at Leaving level that I thought I'd never have a use for. It turned out that I do have a use for it but it's rare for this to happen tbh.

Change the leaving cert course and things will improve. Focus on language only until Junior (especially oral and aural) and things will definitely improve. But keeping it compulsory is pointless. If a student has a good command of the language after the Junior they will keep it on. It's easy points then. But if they don't have any command of the language, then keeping it compulsory will mean that they are just suffering and having their options limited.

Grudaire · 08-12-2005 9:34pm

"A people without a language of its own is only half a nation. a nation should guard its language more then it's territorys, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river"
Thomas Davis

SeanW · 08-12-2005 11:09pm

I'm sure the Americans - and the Swiss in particular would care to disagree that they are only "half a nation" ditto for the Austria, Australia etc.

GaryOR · 09-12-2005 5:19pm

"I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to."

Nut (Can I call you that), this is why I said I can't see anything negative about being fluent with Irish, a reason against being fluent is negative.

"non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language"

At this stage without any changes to the methods of teaching it does exactly mean that. It claims to slove any problem with the teaching of the language, as I said already the methods needs to change before we talk about making it non-compulsory

"why do you think there are such widespread feelings? And they are widespread. Hint: It's not just because of the way it's taught"

We all suffered because of boring irish classes, but its just immature to carry a hate for the language because of some "ball breaker" teacher or boring poem or book.

"Irish textbooks in English medium schools have their instruction written in Irish with the result that many parents have no idea what the object of the book is."

Whale (Can I call you that), Totally agree..

"minority's nationalistic fetishes" (national; my god what a dirty word)

anyway I wouldn't say I have "nationalistic fetishes" but I do believe that Irish is important if we are to be a seperate post-colonial people/nation and as a lanuage is the foundation of any genuine culture
but I'm not the person and this is not the place to try and convience others otherwise..

I think Neasa Ní Chinnéide has put it well here:

"What will stand out about us as a unique culture with its own special inspiration and characteristics? I am reminded of a conversation that I had a number of years ago in Tokyo. I was speaking about Ireland to a Japanese neighbour. 'But you hardly have a distinctive culture' she observed. I spoke of our literature - Yeats, Joyce, music and so on. She listened for a while. Then she said, 'Yes. But do you have a language?'"

Peanut · 09-12-2005 11:19pm

GaryOR wrote:

Nut (Can I call you that)

Sure you can

GaryOR wrote:

..this is why I said I can't see anything negative about being fluent with Irish, a reason against being fluent is negative.

Sorry I don't quite follow you here. I think you're side-stepping the issue again, the question is not Irish fluency and the merits or not of it, but whether it should be a forced "education".

GaryOR wrote:

"non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language"
At this stage without any changes to the methods of teaching it does exactly mean that. It claims to slove any problem with the teaching of the language, as I said already the methods needs to change before we talk about making it non-compulsory

Yes I agree the methods need to change. However I also strongly consider that the conscription into forced learning is a very bad idea, maybe not so much at primary, but definitely at post-primary level.

GaryOR wrote:

We all suffered because of boring irish classes, but its just immature to carry a hate for the language because of some "ball breaker" teacher or boring poem or book.

This is a specious argument. You are shying away from the point again.

The foremost issue is not with the teacher, or the coursework, although, like you say, there is much room for improvement here. It shouldn't bear repeating, but the fact that the only compulsory course for the Leaving Cert is also the most unused, unpractical and forced for blatant political short-sightedness is a glaring anomaly in the current education system.

Why would I not feel slighted by a system that screwed me around as a child? I don't suppose you understand how it feels to be powerless and struggling with something that you know is not one of your strengths, yet is required of you by the current system in order to progress further, yet has zero relevance towards the goal that you are working towards. It is completely nonsensical.

I have nothing against learning Irish, but please, give me a choice in the matter.
Split it up into separate modules, so those with a greater interest can choose all of them.

GaryOR wrote:

"minority's nationalistic fetishes" (national; my god what a dirty word)

Nothing wrong with national, that's why I added the more salacious term.

GaryOR wrote:

anyway I wouldn't say I have "nationalistic fetishes" but I do believe that Irish is important if we are to be a seperate post-colonial people/nation and as a lanuage is the foundation of any genuine culture
but I'm not the person and this is not the place to try and convience others otherwise..

Are you still fretting over colonialism? Do you long for a return to the days before there were English stores on the streets of our country?
I believe national identity transcends language, if you think it's weaker than that well that's your opinion I guess.

Your quote from Neasa Ní Chinnéide illustrates well the diverse nature of identity, the neighbour mistakenly ignoring music and (English) literature as parts of "Irishness" (whatever that is..).

tweety111 · 10-12-2005 1:56pm

i dont agree at all that irish should be optional... we have spent millions of euro tryin to make awareness of our culture and language e.g tnag, conradh na geal, radio na gael, ect.. then we take about 10 steps backwards in sayin it should be optional irish is our countrys national language and beside been only spoken by 5% of the countries people we would be so much worse off if dont do it for the leaving.. its those 2yrs you begin to love the language and expree your point of view through irish. do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..? what dont we have english optional instead.. with learning irish we learn d traditions and culture... Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

SeanW · 10-12-2005 6:39pm

Colonialism? Jeepers man that's ancient history by now. Do you actually remeber from your own experience the time when the Brits occupied us? I honestly doubt they give a toss what we do with Gaeilge.

do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..?

This statement shows that you're a xenophobic racist. We haven't fought for Independence since the early 20th century but I suppose the insurrection still lives on in some of our hearts.

we have spent millions of euro tryin to make awareness of our culture and language e.g tnag, conradh na geal, radio na gael, ect

You mean we wasted millions of euro and very valuable terrestrial bandwidth on a pointless job-creation mechanism that survives only by hiring borderline pornstars, showing old spaghetti-Westerns, leeching popular stuff from other networks, and swallowing god knows how much annual subsidy. TNaG is joke. I can't comment on RNaG because I've never heard it.

what dont we have english optional instead

INSTEAD? Did you read this thread? Do you actually live in Ireland?

I was speaking about Ireland to a Japanese neighbour ... Then she said, 'Yes. But do you have a language?'

Dodges the central issue - it is possible to have a Very strong national identity without a unique language. The U.S. Switzerland, etc are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head. If we'd have had George Washington leading our revolution (against those evil Brits) instead of DeVelera, we'd be a hell of a lot better off now.

This is the key point: It is possible to have a very strong national identity without a national language. Several countries have proved it beyond doubt and I double-dare you to tell me otherwise.

Anyways, if you want to know why linguistic-fascism like yours is a bad idea, look at author Hugo Hamilton and the upbringing he had at the hands of an Irish language Nazi father.http://www.readinggroups.co.uk/guides/Recommended.aspx?id=25701&articleid=5252. So it looks like you're in good company. Simlar to pillocks who'd have no problem allowing Irish home sports games forced to go to Cardiff or someplace while Landsdown Rd is developed and Croke Park lies idle.

nesf · 10-12-2005 7:24pm

tweety111 wrote:

Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

Éire?

Anam my friend, anam.

Grudaire · 10-12-2005 11:17pm

SeanW wrote:

TNaG is joke.

It is possible to have a very strong national identity without a national language. Several countries have proved it beyond doubt

Simlar to pillocks who'd have no problem allowing Irish home sports games forced to go to Cardiff or someplace while Landsdown Rd is developed and Croke Park lies idle.

Firstly TnaG a joke? Yes because every other channel is better.....
RTE, TV3, The GOD cHANNEL, The Shopping channel.
Maybe if you watched TG4......

Please do name a country that has a very strong national identity, and more importantly why our language shouldn't be a part of our nationality.

thirdly tell me one good reason why the GAA should bail out the FAI a sport without a stadium, and with a management who hate the GAA, not to mention the biggest threat to the GAA. Besides Croke part does not lie idle that much, and the idleness serves as a break for the locals. Thirdly the will not actually get that much money for letting the stadium out.

simu · 10-12-2005 11:31pm

GAA and FAI matters not relevant here. Take it to some sports forum.

SeanW · 11-12-2005 12:02am

Cliste wrote:

Maybe if you watched TG4......

Yeah as a matter of fact I do, quite frequently and when I do, I usually see either Westerns or stuff that was stolen from RTE Network 2. Like certain cartoons, pop music shows etc - used to be regular features on RTE 2 till TG4 got their hands on them and gaeilicified them.

Please do name a country that has a very strong national identity

I already have, The U.S.A has no language of it's own but it has a very strong national identity. Switzerland seems to be similar but obviously I know less about it.

and more importantly why our language shouldn't be a part of our nationality.

I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just saying it isn't. Not for me, and - bar one exception - not for anyone I know.

I just want to "live and let live" knowing that whatever happens to this archaic relic, Ireland will continue to be a strong country with a firm identity, while you seem to using the politics of fear to justify your compulsion to ram the Irish language down everyone's throat no matter how stupid and pointless it is.

Rós_Dubh · 11-12-2005 8:50pm

Well to be quite frank we wouldn't be in this situation only for the English did invade our country and penalised our language and our religion. Not forgetting taking our lands away from us and giving to English landlords or informers who 'took the soup'.
We all know about this I am sure but some want to 'let live'. Yes we can't be bitter for the rest of eternity, I know that, but we have to remember where all this came from.
Irish is growing stronger (oh yes it is!) and we should be proud of this! Also a bonus! The Irish language has been made an official language in the European Union. This is great for the Irish! To get a job in the European Union you need three European languages (so english, irish and french/german/spanish etc.) I agree with the 'tír gan teanga, tír gan ainm'. Infact in my household its our favourite saying. I love the Irish language and I try harder every day to get better and it fills me with pride.
Gaeilge is the 3rd ancient language in the world and we are the first to have a proper organised language with grammar etc.

I think this would be the worst time to make Gaeilge an uncompulsary language after the junior cert. The government has to change and improve the teaching of Irish in primary level and perhaps then consider changing it to uncompulsary. But to do it now would be treacherous to the language, it would wipe it clear for sure. I would agree if it was a choice subject and you could swap it for a European language like French (then i would be delighted) but not everyone would be.

I was dissapointed at the Fine Gael Enda Kenny to mention this as their policy if they were elected..

Hey and remember I am not trying to be offensive to anyones opinions.

Thóg an ghaoth léi
Scamall mór dubh
Is thosaigh sé ansin
Ag cur báistí go tiubh

anonymous_joe · 11-12-2005 9:00pm

Having just done the Leaving Cert, and Irish (at honours) I am in possession of loose and fairly bastardised Irish. Having just escaped the grip of secondary education, I feel able to comment on the matter.

Firstly, Enda Kenny says he wants it voluntary after Junior Cert. Voluntary. So you can still do it. After Junior Cert, allowing one 10 or 11 years of Irish. Again, hardly likely to kill the language.

Presumably if academic pressure was removed from the study of ár dteanga a greater affection for it would be fostered. I for one thorughly despised having to wreste with such a difficult language, knowing my future was in doubt if I failed to write a good enough essay on a **** poem as Gaeilge.

So, is ghrá liom mo theanga, agus dar liom, erm, feck it, just do what Kenny wants.

Rós_Dubh · 11-12-2005 9:14pm

Fair enough!
you brought your point across well 'anomynous joe'.
Up Kenny? Maybe but I need a bit more convincing on that subject...!

psicic · 11-12-2005 10:29pm

In my opinion, people should leave primary schools able to speak basic Irish, and that it should be optional for secondary school after the junior cert. Before I’m shot down, I want to clarify – this is to address the farce that is the current system and is a short-term view. Longer term, Irish should have parity of esteem with English and, if one is compulsory, then both should be.

The majority of students today have had abysmal tuition in Irish. They are not robots. You can’t just demand they each independently become fluent because it’s the right thing to do from a rosy, nationalistic point of view.

I believe the problem is at primary school and, without a foundation at that level, and without a compelling daily pressure on average individuals to use Irish, it’s a pointless waste to try and cram cúpla focail into students’ heads during an already stressful time such as the Leaving Cert. People realise that a lot rides on the Leaving Cert and it just breeds more resentment to include Irish in the syllabus in such a half-assed way.

The system at primary level is being reformed. Since the DES has only just gotten around to having proper textbooks printed and courses formulated for the SCG(the Irish exams primary school teachers have to take - only took 80 years for them to do this!:eek: ), and that the system is already crammed with sub-par teachers (with respect to the Irish language) I think that we can look forward to a whole generation of people who 1)enjoy the language and 2)are able to use it actively, but we can’t put unrealistic expectations on children definitely in the next 6-8 years.

As for waiting for the Government or the Civil Service to do something about it, I’m probably pointing out what most of you already know, but if you want more Gaelscoils at primary level or, indeed, second level, the government isn’t stopping you. It’s up to each Board of Management and the Patron of each school to decide its ethos and the execution of such. The DES and/or government has no direct function in either – they’ll still give cash to the schools regardless. It’s the schools and the PARENTS who decide this. We don’t have a comprehensive system like England, the State doesn’t have the only say in where and when schools are built.

If there’s a secret love of Irish ready to burst forth from the bosoms of the majority of parents in an area, well, have at it. Convert an existing school to Irish or get together and set up a school.AFAIK both are possible.

The point by Rós Dubh on the language being useful for getting a job in Europe is taken, but with two provisos; one, it isn’t official until 1st January 2007, so anyone thinking of using it in the next year will have to wait; two I’m sorry to say that most jobs advertised for European agencies can specify what languages they want employees to speak. Unless you’re talking about a general intake, which is territory I know little about because such an intake is so rare, Irish has a limited use in Europe, only 29 full-time positions requiring the language are to be created, and our Government, i.e. us taxpayers:rolleyes: , have to fund all costs relating to these posts and the use of Irish. So don’t expect an explosion of Irish speaking posts in Europe.

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 12:54am

Haven't been on this thread in a while and was just reading some of the comments there.

I already have, The U.S.A has no language of it's own but it has a very strong national identity.

Sorry Sean W but waat a load of cr*p!! Have you ever been to America? I have on a number of occasions, actually worked as a waitress there, and as you know this allows you to meet alot of people. 95% of people would comment on my accent and claim that they were Irish in one way or another. Why? Because it means something to be Irish.

Are Americans patriotic? Yes. But why do most of them identify themselves as being "part Italian, part Greek, part Irish" whatever? Because the roots of their culture are not one iota as deep as ours. Alot of the people I met were really interested to hear that we had our own language and some of them even asked me to write down little phrases for them.

Why was it so interesting for them? Because they don't have a language of their own and this undermines their culture hugely in my opinion. i don't know a single Irish person who would identify themselves as being anything other than Irish, despite having grandparents from other countries. This is in no way because they don't want to be associated with the respective country but because it is enough to say you are Irish. For many Americans it is not enough to say you are American. Why the identity crisis? Because our heritage, language and culture are stronger and deeper than theirs.

And no the money spent on the revival of the Irish language is not a waste, because it has made a "dying" language (us Gaelgóirs know better) begin to grow in popularity again.

As a previous poster said, some LC students may want to make Irish optional but they would also love "compulsary tv watching" classes or "no homework days". The amount of middle-aged Irish people I have come across that are jealous of mo chuid Gaeilge and wish they could go back and learn it again is unreal. This is because with age, grow values

I agree with the 'tír gan teanga, tír gan ainm'. Infact in my household its our favourite saying. I love the Irish language and I try harder every day to get better and it fills me with pride.
Gaeilge is the 3rd ancient language in the world and we are the first to have a proper organised language with grammar etc.

We are on the same wavelength Rós Dubh. My knowledge of the Irish language makes me proud to be Irish. I think that some of these "anti-Gaeilge" posters should take a good look at themselves if they consider themselves truly Irish

nesf · 12-12-2005 1:30am

JustCoz wrote:

My knowledge of the Irish language makes me proud to be Irish. I think that some of these "anti-Gaeilge" posters should take a good look at themselves if they consider themselves truly Irish

So by your "logic" a person isn't Irish as a child if they come from a family which does not speak Irish as it's first language.

Solid reasoning there mate. You've just made the vast majority of the country not Irish. I wonder if they agree...

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 1:40am

Right, this is a complete load of codswollop. Irish is our national language, like it or not. English is our most broadly spoken language and that makes logical sense--most of the world communicate through English media.

However, making Irish optional is singularly the most idiotic idea I've heard come from Fine Gael ever, and I don't have too much of a problem with their other policies.

We cannot make Irish optional, and continue to take ourselves seriously in Europe. We have only just managed to get the EU to accept Irish as an official language of the EU. If we made it optional in schools, we would (yet again) become the laughing stock of the EU.

Let's just take a step back and look at this; the official language in Holland is Dutch. They all speak English, and conduct most of their international business in English, but who in their right mind would suggest that Dutch be made optional in the schools?

Now, I know I'm going to be hit with the "yeah but Irish isn't in use all the time, Dutch is" line so I'm going to mount a pre-emptive attack on that one. Irish isn't in popular use because it isn't taught correctly in schools, not because Irish people don't want to speak it.

You could walk down any road in Ireland and ask people if they would like to be able to speak Irish and a number very close to all of them would say "yes". Of course they would, it establishes national identity, it makes us something other than just another pseudo-British nation. We are Celtic by race, not Britannic, so we have a Celtic language which is dear to most of us.

Now, I'm far from a nationalist and I'm certainly not a racist, but the Irish language (and culture) is a sticking point for me. I would hate nothing more than to see us lose our very historic, very beautiful language just because a bunch of 12-18 year old kids are too lazy to work at another subject.

I can fully accept that Irish is taught abysmally in schools in Ireland, but that is due to Government lackadaisicalness in the past in relation to the language:

Let’s look at Welsh. That’s a language that was on the brink of extinction not so long ago, but now, thanks to some relentless Government reforms, Welsh is a fiery and vibrant language that most Welsh people can speak fairly fluently. If the Irish government implemented some serious policy in relation to the language, within a very small number of years, Irish could be just as vivacious.

NoelRock wrote:

What, pray tell, are you Anglophobes fearing?

This has nothing to do with English whatsoever. Nobody has mentioned not wanting to speak English, so make another, sensible point.

There seems to be a huge fault here around the basic point of whether Irish is any use or not. That is a non-issue in real terms: if Irish were to be taught properly, and if Irish people were able to speak it, they would do so. Arguing that it’s no use is along the same grounds as arguing that French is any use. If you’re going to take that line of argument, then why are we even bothering with a tower of Babel? Why don’t we all just settle on English, and do away with all of the other nuisance languages?

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude. Albeit that Irish might not be taught in a fun way, it is no truer for Irish than for the other compulsory subjects. Who can say they thoroughly enjoyed Maths class? English?

SeanW wrote:

Exactly! The majority of students (in a poll taken in the North East Secondary Schools) indicated that 58% of students would rather the language was OPTIONAL. People DON'T like the language. The people who do like it CAN learn it - we're talking about the people you don't, hence "optional" and not "banned".

You’re taking a completely wrong perspective by quoting that statistic. If kids were able to make decisions for their own benefit, there would be no need to have a law against under-18’s drinking, or under-17’s having sex. Children are not able to see the bigger picture, so if 58% of them say they’d prefer Irish to be optional, then that 58% are just those who I have previously mentioned as being skivers. Incidentally, 58% isn’t the most concrete of margins anyway, I’m actually surprised it wasn’t higher.

SeanW wrote:

Gaeilge: Keeps the muppets happy but does absolutely nothing else, save for creating resentment among the majority.

This is one of those, “if I say it, then it’s true” posts. How about this:
Gaeilge: Broadens students’ knowledge of their culture and encourages individuality. Learning Irish from an early age develops linguistic skills.

Peanut wrote:

Sorry JustCoz, but that is a generalisation to the point of nothingness!

No it isn’t. It’s an analogy. JustCoz is saying that, in the same way as we’re “forced” to learn Irish, we’re “forced” to do other things in life to which it might seem like there’s no salient point.

Another thing; we are none of us “forced” to do a single thing in our lives. We have choices always available to us, although there may be conditions attached to those choices. Thus, we go to school to get an education, but how do we know that it is an education we will receive? Standards are set by people to whom we entrust the setting of standards, and those people believe that Irish is a necessary part of our education. So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

JustCoz wrote:

95% of people would comment on my accent and claim that they were Irish in one way or another. Why? Because it means something to be Irish.

How do you like them apples SeanW?

I just want to finish by saying that although I am staunchly in favour of maintaining Irish as a compulsory subject in the LC, I do believe that the system used in teaching it needs to be drastically changed at a grass roots level, as do the opinions of those who consider it a dying language. It’s up to the government to make this happen, and I concede that it may be some time before we see any action on that front. I find the suggestion that Irish should be made an option unfathomable, and I cannot believe that any party leader in this country could take himself seriously as a contender for Taoiseach having defiled his party as Enda Kenny has.

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 1:43am

Postcount+++

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 2:09am

So by your "logic" a person isn't Irish as a child if they come from a family which does not speak Irish as it's first language.

Solid reasoning there mate. You've just made the vast majority of the country not Irish. I wonder if they agree...

I think you missed the point i was trying to make Nesf. I wasn't saying that you need to be fluent in Irish to be Irish, or even have to speak it well, most people can't. I didn't grow up in a house that spoke Irish. I was saying that you can't consider yourself truly Irish with such a grudge against one of the fundamentals that makes you Irish.

I just think that you need to have a respect for the language and an appreciation for it's worth. Blatant insults and undermining of the language are a reflection on your opinion of your nationality.

nesf · 12-12-2005 2:39am

JustCoz wrote:

I think you missed the point i was trying to make Nesf. I wasn't saying that you need to be fluent in Irish to be Irish, or even have to speak it well, most people can't. I didn't grow up in a house that spoke Irish. I was saying that you can't consider yourself truly Irish with such a grudge against one of the fundamentals that makes you Irish.

Ah, so is it enough to have cupla focail or should a person be able to converse briefly in the language or write and comprehend it? Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice for people to be able to converse to a reasonable degree in Irish. I think that this would be a good thing for people and most of my friends (that don't speak Irish) agree with me on this.

But being able to converse with Irish and Irish being compulsory for the Leaving are two completely different things. An Honours Irish student might struggle with great difficulty to speak even briefly in the language yet do quite well in the written exam. Surely this is a sign that we need to seperate the issues of speaking and studying the language?

You don't need to do Irish for the leaving to be able to speak it. In fact, it seems to make little difference if you study it at honours or pass in this country. Unless you go to a Gaelscol you probably can't have much of a conversation in the language. It's sad but it's true. Then, it's the same with the foreign languages taught at that level. People might have delusions of being near fluent at French because they got an A1 but anyone who actually is fluent in the language will tell you that at most you have a grasp of the basics after the leaving cert and have a long way to go before you could be considered fluent.

JustCoz wrote:

I just think that you need to have a respect for the language and an appreciation for it's worth. Blatant insults and undermining of the language are a reflection on your opinion of your nationality.

See this is where this all breaks down for me. People seem to be very confused and overly defensive on even the hint of the idea that Irish mightn't be suitable to be a compulsory subject for the leaving. It is not an undermining of the language to say that it should be optional for the leaving. The leaving is not the be all and end all of education! There is nothing stopping a person trying to learn the language later in life.

Saying that Irish shouldn't be compulsory is not immediately an undermining or an attack on the language itself! It's a questioning of it's validity as a compulsory subject in a very harsh and stressful education system. If anything I favour with those who propose that nothing is compulsory after the junior cert. It is very very difficult to justify compulsory subjects in a system that is so highly geared towards results across the board.

People on this thread, on both sides, are making this into a huge ideological battle encouraging a partisian divide between those who value Irish and those who don't. Personally I find this to be bull****. People are getting far far too stressed over this. You need to keep this in the context of a person sitting their leaving cert. That person is the one effected by this, not us.

If a person does it to Junior then they should have enough of the basics to be able to expand this knowledge if they so wish. Forcing them to take the subject into what is one of the most stressful periods of their life to date is not going to help things.

Make it optional, then the students might feel a bit patriotic when they choose to keep on their national language. Versus now where they feel that it's being rammed down their throats. I honestly don't believe that making it optional will harm the level of fluency in the language in this country. There will always be people who won't want to learn it, that's unavoidable. It's finding a way to make more people care is the big issue. Perhaps giving them a choice might do that. They might feel "empowered" or something.

Peanut · 12-12-2005 4:53am

hullaballoo wrote:

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude.

So we should all be good little students and parents, and accept whatever syllabus has been decreed, without critical thought?
Sorry but I Would prefer students with 'an attitude', no need for anarchy, just some faith in people to take control of their own lives would be nice.

hullaballoo wrote:

Another thing; we are none of us “forced” to do a single thing in our lives.
...
So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

This is really hilarious, so we have a choice in the matter because we can decide whether to be educated or not? Wonderful.

To the people who are putting forward the exceedingly silly 'But kids would choose to watch tv if you let them'

That is a complete non-argument, perhaps you would prefer if there were no optional subjects??? Surely it would simplify the whole of second level education, don't you think?

It appears from this thread that most of the people in favour of keeping the absurd status quo are already fluent in Irish to at least some extent, it's no surprise then that they may not understand the difficulties in having to learn another, unnecessary language at a time when, as has been pointed out, there is already significant stress.

It also find it especially small-minded that people would look down on others as less 'Irish' as themselves, due to their lack of Gaeilge.
Can you live and let live a bit? Can you understand that there are multiple ways of expressing an identity with your country, and that this is not the be all and end all of a person's worth? Sure, it may instill national pride to be aware of and conversant in the historical traditions of your homeland, but please do not insist that everyone do the same, it gets tired very quickly.

SeanW · 12-12-2005 6:01am

but who in their right mind would suggest that Dutch be made optional in the schools?

Dutch is their primary language, Irish is not ours. That is the difference.

Now, I know I'm going to be hit with the "yeah but Irish isn't in use all the time, Dutch is" line so I'm going to mount a pre-emptive attack on that one. Irish isn't in popular use because it isn't taught correctly in schools, not because Irish people don't want to speak it.

Idealistic bull. Irish isn't spoken because people have decided not to use it. The Dutch language may have remained alive but Irish was largely dropped from our real culture a long time ago.

This has nothing to do with English whatsoever. Nobody has mentioned not wanting to speak English, so make another, sensible point.

Sorry, wrong again, at least one person on this thread has compared optional Irish to optional English and maths and another has said that "we shouldn't give the Brits the satisfaction" or something like that. It has everything to do with English.

There seems to be a huge fault here around the basic point of whether Irish is any use or not. That is a non-issue in real terms:

That a language is not used is a non-issue? That is a laugh.

Arguing that it’s no use is along the same grounds as arguing that French is any use.

French is not mandatory in any Irish school but millions upon millions of people use it in their everyday lives. Anything you can say is good about learning "a" language could be applied to French.

If you’re going to take that line of argument, then why are we even bothering with a tower of Babel? Why don’t we all just settle on English, and do away with all of the other nuisance languages?

I would have no objection to this as I consider language to be more of a barrier than anything else. I recognise however that this view is not common, and that "all of the other nuisance languages" are PRIMARY languages for large numbers of the world's population.

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude. Albeit that Irish might not be taught in a fun way, it is no truer for Irish than for the other compulsory subjects. Who can say they thoroughly enjoyed Maths class? English?

So it HAS to do with English? I've already explained why we do English, not that any such explanation is really necessary. If Irish is no less "fun" than any other subject, why does it have all the resentment?

You’re taking a completely wrong perspective by quoting that statistic. If kids were able to make decisions for their own benefit, there would be no need to have a law against under-18’s drinking, or under-17’s having sex. Children are not able to see the bigger picture, so if 58% of them say they’d prefer Irish to be optional, then that 58% are just those who I have previously mentioned as being skivers. Incidentally, 58% isn’t the most concrete of margins anyway, I’m actually surprised it wasn’t higher.

My God, you really have a terrible view of our young people, don't you? To a certain extent you're right in that some students do skive-off, but usually with good reason. Not everyone has high ambitions - some young people will just go into the family business or take an apprenticeship or whatever after school. So they know they don't need a whole bunch of LC points and don't look for them.

That said, I don't favor an "Irish or doss" choice becuse the uptake of the latter would be near-universal. I don't think anyone does.

This is one of those, “if I say it, then it’s true” posts. How about this:
Gaeilge: Broadens students’ knowledge of their culture and encourages individuality.

Compulsion and forced nationalism "encourage individuality." That's like one of those awful pictures that say "Always remember that you are an individual. Just like everyone else."

in the same way as we’re “forced” to learn Irish, we’re “forced” to do other things in life to which it might seem like there’s no salient point.

There is a salient point for everything else that is done in secondary school including the electives I'd like to see added. Again, if so many subjects "don't have a point" why is Irish singled out?

Standards are set by people to whom we entrust the setting of standards, and those people believe that Irish is a necessary part of our education. So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea. Your post is one of those "I'm right, you're wrong and the DOE will back me up" posts.

How do you like them apples SeanW?

I reject "them apples" completely. Asked if I have "ever been to America" the answer is yes - I lived there for some time, have gone there frequently and have/had a number of friends there as well as one side of my family. So I know what I'm talking about. And I know that language is a non-issue for Americans who happily speak the language of "the Oppressor." The U.S. has a strong identity, high levels of patriotism, their own menu of sports, music, food, culture, lifestyles and so on.

There are two reasons why people have split identities in America. One is where there is an obvious condition, such as colour of skin, recent arrival as an immigrant or being the family of 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. After enough generations pass, the gene-pool gets mixed up and one becomes "American" only (for white people at least). Again nothing to do with a language.

Just to clarify some points that have been muddled in the debate
1: I know what I'm taking about when I discuss the situation in the U.S.
2: I don't hate the Irish language, no more than I hate Swahili or Russian etc.
3: I do NOT and would never, support an "Irish or doss" choice being given to 2nd level students.
4: I believe that Irish should be optionalised in secondary school in an elective subject setup. Electives force the student to make decisions for themselves and often guide the student to topics which may have a purpose in their future and/or careers. I know this from personal experience.
5: I support the overhaul of the curriculum as proposed by many entities including Enda Kenny and Trevor Sargent.
6: I believe all this as a view of an education system that should exist to serve students with a modern, student focused curriculum rather than a throwback to the DeVelera days.
7: There are many other topics which should be available (but not mandatory) in the 2nd level curriculum, such as drivers ed and IT.
8: I support having adult Irish language courses for those who want them.

GreenHell · 12-12-2005 7:05am

What strikes me as being strange about the whole Irish language thing is that many of us would love to know Irish. Right now I know zero, out of secondry school with a longtime now and I can't remember any of it but I do plan at some point coming back to the language and finding a more user friendly approach to learning it.

I think Irish should be optional, at the most apon entering 2nd level but at the very least after junior cert you should have a choice.

The bottom line here is the teaching off the language, the way its taught is piss poor really, I know a few fluent people and it really pisses them how poorly the language is thought. With all the millions that have been pumped into Irish its time for a reality check and a look at how we teach Irish.

GaryOR · 12-12-2005 1:01pm

Are you still fretting over colonialism? Do you long for a return to the days before there were English stores on the streets of our country?
I believe national identity transcends language, if you think it's weaker than that well that's your opinion I guess.

Nut: Return to the days before there were English stores, come on, just because I'm pro-Irish doesn't make me anti-English.
National identity involves all aspects of the culture so yes yeats and Joyce are part of Irish culture, but the corner stone of our culture is our language and thats irrelevant to its status or what percentage use it daily etc...

Nut I think you're a prime example of how the system has really failed the nation, how an Irish man can even justify a hate of Irish, or would perfer never to have anything to do with it. I assume you have lost out on a college course because of it or something like that..

But our disagreement seems to be only down to timing, that is the timing of a possible introduction of making Irish a choice subject. ony after say 15 -20 years after new teaching measures are put in place should it be considered (I'm probably repeating myself here) not now. one step at a time.

SeanW: you're a lost cause, I'd say you wake up every morning cursing the fact that your not in the states, god help ya.

GaryOR · 12-12-2005 1:04pm

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea.

Thats why we have Transition year

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 1:46pm

SeanW wrote:

Irish isn't spoken because people have decided not to use it. The Dutch language may have remained alive but Irish was largely dropped from our real culture a long time ago.

That statement has taken poll position for the most ridiculous, and factually inaccurate post I have ever seen on Boards. The Irish language was stifled by the English when they met resistance during the plantations. It was made illegal to speak Irish in Ireland, so people began to forget it. Not a single Irish person decided to drop it from popular use.

SeanW wrote:

Sorry, wrong again, at least one person on this thread has compared optional Irish to optional English and maths and another has said that "we shouldn't give the Brits the satisfaction" or something like that. It has everything to do with English.

Quotes please

SeanW wrote:

That a language is not used is a non-issue? That is a laugh.

Taking a statement out of context doesn’t show anything. If you read on, you’ll see that the reason it’s a non-issue is because if people could speak it, then they would. Thus it would be of some use.

SeanW wrote:

French is not mandatory in any Irish school but millions upon millions of people use it in their everyday lives. Anything you can say is good about learning "a" language could be applied to French.

Again you quote me out of context. The reason why you cannot argue Irish is any less useful then French is because no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

SeanW wrote:

I would have no objection to this as I consider language to be more of a barrier than anything else. I recognise however that this view is not common, and that "all of the other nuisance languages" are PRIMARY languages for large numbers of the world's population.

And you have the audacity to laugh at me, and call me an ideological bullsh!ter? Come on sir, say irony.

SeanW wrote:

If Irish is no less "fun" than any other subject, why does it have all the resentment?

You could probably answer that one yourself if you really thought about it. Irish is resented because of the misconception that it is a difficult subject, so really the problem is with the education system, as all of us have conceded. In addition, Irish is resented because students in schools do not understand how it is useful. They, as you do, fail to see the bigger picture: if we could all speak Irish, then we would. Sir, I defy you to find an adequate statistic that shows me that, even a simple majority (50% + 1) would not speak Irish were it something they could do.

SeanW wrote:

So it HAS to do with English? I've already explained why we do English, not that any such explanation is really necessary.

Yeah, you didn’t make a point there.

Compulsion and forced nationalism "encourage individuality." That's like one of those awful pictures that say "Always remember that you are an individual. Just like everyone else."

You didn’t make a point there either. Everybody is an individual, which means that in that one single regard, yes you are like everyone else. I think that might have been a cheap attempt at irony, but Alanis Morissette did a better job to be honest.

There is a salient point for everything else that is done in secondary school including the electives I'd like to see added.

You missed my point there again. There is a very hefty difference between “to which there is no salient point” and “to which it may seem there is no salient point”. Perhaps you might care to reread my post in full and then comment. It seems that you picked it apart sentence by sentence, without actually reading it.

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea. Your post is one of those "I'm right, you're wrong and the DOE will back me up" posts.

Something tells me you’re slightly anti-establishment. I think the point is that with the structure of our second level education system, drivers ed should take a back seat to academics (pun intended). The fact that Irish people rightly value academia is not something that can be considered faulty reasoning. Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics. It then comes down to a philosophical point of whether or not academics are important to you. Personally I prefer to be broadly read than focussed on one particular area of expertise. It makes you more rounded to have a broader education.

I reject "them apples" completely

Come now, it’s undeniable that Americans cling to their ancestry to give them an idea of who they are. Your point seems to be that this will blur as time goes by and they will just be American. Well you’re right, that will happen, because in time, America will have its own culture, a hybrid of European and Asian culture. But for now, Americans are without their own identity, thus they harp back to where their family originated. This is an undeniable fact.

Peanut wrote:

Sorry but I Would prefer students with 'an attitude', no need for anarchy, just some faith in people to take control of their own lives would be nice.

What I mean, as you well know, is that students don’t have the ideal attitude to their education in general, not just Irish.

The rest of your post was ráiméis.

ishmael whale · 12-12-2005 3:11pm

hullaballoo wrote:

The Irish language was stifled by the English when they met resistance during the plantations. It was made illegal to speak Irish in Ireland, so people began to forget it. Not a single Irish person decided to drop it from popular use .

We need to catch up on current events. For a couple of generations considerable resources have been invested in trying to revive the language which have failed due to public indifference. It was deemed to be such a priority that at one stage science was dropped from the primary curriculum to give more time to teaching Irish. The issue still have the power to energise debate, such that while English and Maths are optional Leaving Cert subjects Irish, uniquely, is compulsory. This suggests that the traditional view that education takes second place to the status of Irish still holds sway in some places.

hullaballoo wrote:

no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

This is simply illogical.

hullaballoo wrote:

Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics.

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm

SeanW · 12-12-2005 3:20pm

quotes please

And quotes you shall have.

Xenophobic "fcuk the Brits" quote 1:

tweety111 wrote:

do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..?

I'm sure the average English person could give a flying toss what we do with it. Maybe I'm just living in the wrong century?

"Why English" quote 1:

what dont we have english optional instead.. with learning irish we learn d traditions and culture... Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

"Why English" quote 2:

Cliste wrote:

why is english and math compulsary?

More from our enlightened friend

Cliste wrote:

I cannot see the logic behind things that we are currently studying.

no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

I say Sanskrit is useless. Also Latin. Does this mean I think ALL languages are useless? Your statement is totally illogical. But frankly, its what I've come to expect in this debate.

So you see? Throughout this debate, it's been a "fcuk English and Brits" and vauge aspiration type comments from your camp, as well as personal insults etc.

Come now, it’s undeniable that Americans cling to their ancestry to give them an idea of who they are. Your point seems to be that this will blur as time goes by and they will just be American. Well you’re right, that will happen, because in time, America will have its own culture, a hybrid of European and Asian culture. But for now, Americans are without their own identity, thus they harp back to where their family originated. This is an undeniable fact.

What a load of bull. Some people have already dropped their (X)-American viewpoint due to the passage of generations. And the US does have a culture, they invented the hot-dog, hamburger, they have their own sports, like American football and baseball, basketball etc, much the same as we have Gaeilic football and hurling. They also spawned several new genres of music including Country and Rap. Much of what is on our TV is American TV shows. Most Americans consider themselves American in part or full and are very patriotic, and the lack of a unique language is a non-issue for ALL the Americans I know. Where people consider themselves (X)-American it is down to concrete factors like skin colour or recent immigration, not specifically the lack of a language.

Of course you and Cliste would rather take cheap shots how "Americans all think Jesus popped over there," "have no culture or identity" etc. than accept the fact that you can have patriotism, a strong culture and complete identity without a language. I have a lot of personal experience to know this.

Personally I prefer to be broadly read than focussed on one particular area of expertise. It makes you more rounded to have a broader education.

By the time one gets their Junior Cert results, many people will already have a vision for their future. That's why Junior Cert is one opportune time to make Irish optional, because at that point young people will ask themselves the hard questions about "where am I going?" "what field of work would I like to enter?" "what are my capabilites.

This is perfect because these questions would - in a student focused educaton system - be met with opportunities to study things that facilitate those hopes and dreams, rather than some keyboard warriors view of what their culture and life should entail.

If Irish were hypothetically speaking put into an elective list with drivers ed, and world culture, some students would decide "I'm going to be a patriotic young Irishman/woman and learn more Gaeilge" others would decide "when I turn 17, I'm going get behind the wheel of a deadly weapon, and I want to know what the hell I'm doing" and choose drivers ed. others would say "I want to broaden my mind and perhaps travel, or just have something that looks smart on my LC, so a culture course is for me." I envisage a 3-way split of student uptake in this situation.

Of course all of this is moot becuase I don't hate the Irish language and I 100% support anyone who wants to use it or learn it being able to do so.If you love it and want it in your personal life I support you all the way. Is it too much therefore, for a person who doesn't want it rammed down their throats not to have such?

As Ishmael Whale and others have said, remove the element of compulsion and Irish can be normally related to as a language rather than a government/education imposition. Then let those who share your love of the language pursue it to their hearts content.

SeanW · 12-12-2005 3:34pm

Ishmael Whale wrote:

Originally Posted by hullaballoo
Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics.

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

And I know this from personal experience too, as I explained earlier. The education system needs a major overhaul. Start by firing all the muppets that live in DeVelera's fantasy world that advise their Minister not to have any kind of drivers ed in school. Then get rid of the ridiculous throwbacks to the past, like Religion class and compulsory Irish. Build up economies of scale where needed/possible and have a wide variety of elective subjects as well as overhauled core academia.

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 4:15pm

Calm down Sean W or you will give yourself a heart attack! I'm not really bothered going through your posts and picking out the bits I don't agree with, I'll just say this. Most people are making valid points on this forum but the whole "you just hate the English" lark is innaccurate. We just want to have our own identity. As Hullaballoo rightly pointed out, we are of Celtic descent and not Britannic and it is fair enough that we want to be recognised as such. Having our own language adds to our identity, how can you say it doesn't?

You repeatedly say that you don't hate the Irish language and maybe that's true but your insults and undermining of it up til now have shot that argument in the foot.
The reason that this is such a sensitive topic is because alot of time effort and money has been put into the revival of the Irish language and Enda kenny's proposal, were it to happen, would throw all of this out the window. As previously mentioned, it's often only in the last two years of school that people begin to love the language because they can begin to express themselves in essays and put it into practical use through oral work. To take this away from students would be foolish and inconsistent with what the government have been trying to do for the language up until now

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 4:43pm

nesf wrote:

An Honours Irish student might struggle with great difficulty to speak even briefly in the language yet do quite well in the written exam. Surely this is a sign that we need to seperate the issues of speaking and studying the language?

I couldn't agree more. I don't think that anyone on my side of the argument would dispute this point. A complete overhaul of the system is required. It's a disgrace that people can learn Irish for 14yrs and not be able to string a sentence together.

People seem to be very confused and overly defensive on even the hint of the idea that Irish mightn't be suitable to be a compulsory subject for the leaving. It is not an undermining of the language to say that it should be optional for the leaving.

No thats not it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if that's your point of view, fair enough. I'm speaking about the comments that are just downright insulting to people like me who value the language as much as I do. It's uncalled for.

ishmael whale · 12-12-2005 5:33pm

JustCoz wrote:

Having our own language adds to our identity, how can you say it doesn't?

If you reflect, I think you’ll appreciate the very existence of this question raises an underlying problem. Is ‘Irish identity’ something to do with what Irish people are or do, or is it a theoretical formula that someone establishes to which we are expected to conform?

At present Irish simply isn’t a major part of the lives of most Irish people. To suggest it should become a part of their lives, so it can be deemed part of their identity, raises all kinds of issues to do with who has the right to pronounce on such matters.

JustCoz wrote:

The reason that this is such a sensitive topic is because alot of time effort and money has been put into the revival of the Irish language and Enda kenny's proposal, were it to happen, would throw all of this out the window.

I’m not sure this really reflects the reality of the situation. The resources are already wasted, and I don’t think anyone is really contesting that. The division is between people who want to abolish compulsion and those who want to retain it. There seems to be a general consensus that, either way, the teaching of Irish needs a complete change of approach as currently resources are achieving very little.

Announcing an early date when compulsion will end (as in two or three years) would provide the necessary incentive for the Irish language teaching establishment to embrace change. Otherwise, they’ll just go back to sleep weaving some illusion that they are actually achieving something.

nesf · 12-12-2005 6:39pm

JustCoz wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I don't think that anyone on my side of the argument would dispute this point. A complete overhaul of the system is required. It's a disgrace that people can learn Irish for 14yrs and not be able to string a sentence together.

Yes, but people seem to think that "changing the system" will improve the situation in the short term. It won't. The problems with teaching Irish start at primary level in this country. One's ability to speak the language can be crippled by going to the "wrong" primary school. Irish at second level assumes that the student has the basics. This is not the case for quite a few students. We need to enact change at primary level, but this, as I've said before on this thread, will only show results in 10-15 years time.

Basically, saying that we should change the system does nothing to nullify the validity of making Irish optional. Perhaps in 10-15 years time it could be made compulsory again but at the moment there aren't many reasons to support keeping it compulsory for the Leaving. So long as it's compulsory until the Junior cert then everyone will have studied the language for many years. That is more than just a nod in the language's direction tbh.

JustCoz wrote:

No thats not it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if that's your point of view, fair enough. I'm speaking about the comments that are just downright insulting to people like me who value the language as much as I do. It's uncalled for.

I agree, some of the posts in this thread have been quite impolite and inconsiderate. On both sides. That does not mean that we should succumb to these pointless, "red top", tabloid, "as a mother" arguments.

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 7:01pm

Ishmael whale wrote:

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

Think again. We are not discussing third level education in Ireland. There are a great many schools in Ireland that are in high demand on an international front: St Andrew’s in Booterstown, St Gerard’s in Bray, St Michael’s, Blackrock College, St Columba’s, Clongowe’s etc.

This is simply illogical

Actually, it is perfectly logical. If you call any one language useless, you are doing so on the grounds that there is no need for it. Why would there be no need for it? The answer is that there are other ways to communicate, other languages ie English in this case. Your line of “logic” would mean that there is also no need for English, because there is a suitable substitute, say, French. But there is no need for French, because Italian will suffice and so on. You see, by condemning Irish as you are, you are defeating the whole purpose of different languages.

We need to catch up on current events. For a couple of generations considerable resources have been invested in trying to revive the language which have failed due to public indifference.

Where did you get that little factoid? It isn’t in the least bit true, at no stage has the Irish public ever shown indifference to the Irish language.

SeanW wrote:

I say Sanskrit is useless. Also Latin.

Neither Sanskrit nor Latin are useless. Sanskrit is key in historical and archaeological researches, which too are tools to help us understand ourselves. Latin is the basis for nearly every language between here and the middle-east, and learning it gives people a huge insight into their own languages. I think it’s safe to say that any scholar worth his salt would pooh-pooh that reckless statement. You are quite adequately insulting yourself here, which saves me the bother.

Incidentally, you also misquoted Cliste in your last post. It’s getting annoying.

I really can’t believe you said that about Latin and Sanskrit, that was careless.

ishmael whale · 13-12-2005 11:35am

hullaballoo wrote:

We are not discussing third level education in Ireland.

Can I point out that you are actually the one who suggested that our academics were world renowned, and now seem to be pulling back in the face of the evidence I have provided that this is not the case?

For what its worth, OECD surveys show our second level educational standards are mediocre. http://www.erc.ie/pisa/P03SummaryReport.pdf
The PISA reports us as coming 17 place out of 29 OECD countries on maths, 6 out of 29 on reading literacy 13 out of 29 on science and 18 out of 29 for problem solving. Only on reading literacy could we feel this amounts to a good score. Incidently, anticipating the red herring usually introduced at this point, the high score on reading can hardly be attributed to the fact of compulsory Irish when you consider the comment of the Irish language commissioner that

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=49 DESPITE spending 13 years learning Irish, at an overall cost of €500m a year, many of our school-leavers are not attaining even a basic fluency in the language.

If you plan a retreat into the primary sector, you might consider that Ireland is actually deciding not to participate in the usual international surveys of educational attainment for fear of what they would reveal. There have been reports of an internal Department of Education assessment saying primary standards are not good and part of the reason is the amount of time spent failing to teach students Irish.

hullaballoo wrote:

Actually, it is perfectly logical.

You are making the very basic logic error of confusing ‘all’ with ‘some’, and assigning a uniform meaning to ‘use’. It is simply a fact that a person will find that competence in French will enable them to communicate with a considerable amount of people that don’t have English. Ditto Italian. However, learning to speak Miriam Mir will only enable you to speak to a few hundred people on the Torres Straits Islands. That’s not to say that learning Miriam Mir might not be interesting, or worth doing for the pure pursuit of knowledge. But it is simply a fact that many people, given the choice, would choose to do French first.

hullaballoo wrote:

Where did you get that little factoid? It isn’t in the least bit true, at no stage has the Irish public ever shown indifference to the Irish language.

We have a frightening ability in this country to react to unpalatable facts by pretending they don’t exist. The Irish people have voted with their feet. Despite the investment of billions over a couple of generations the Irish people have simply refused to adopt it as their language.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 3:27pm

Ishmael Whale wrote:

We have a frightening ability in this country to react to unpalatable facts by pretending they don’t exist. The Irish people have voted with their feet. Despite the investment of billions over a couple of generations the Irish people have simply refused to adopt it as their language.

Whilst I admire your posting, your eye for factual information (generally) and the resourcefulness of your responses, you cannot continue this line of argument without grounding it somehow. What investment? How does this investment compare to investments in other subjects? What makes you believe that the public are unwilling to learn Irish?

You say "the Irish people have simply refused to adopt [Irish] as their language". I must say in all honesty that I see very little evidence of this; the reason for the inability of Ireland to converse in Irish seems to me to be down to the poor way in which it is taught, not because of an unwillingness by the masses to have it as a conversational language.

I concede that the standards of education in this country are in reality abysmal, and that the OECD reports, inter alia, reflect this. However, there is a prevalant in other countries that Irish people are highly educated. It is easy to see how this comes into being. It comes down to the fact that more Irish people are educated per population than in other countries due to free secondary and tertiary education, so we thus have a skilled workforce.

In other words, people who perceive that the Irish education system is above average are misled. That said, my point still holds true; Irish people are proud of academia.

You are making the very basic logic error of confusing ‘all’ with ‘some’, and assigning a uniform meaning to ‘use’.

I took the time to carefully read your posts. Please return the favour, and do not insult my intellect.

ishmael whale · 13-12-2005 4:43pm

hullaballoo wrote:

How does this investment compare to investments in other subjects?

According to the link below, we spend about 5,000 million on education, once you cut out the cost of the Department itself. This means Irish accounts for about 10% of all resources.
http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/statistics02-03_b.pdf

hullaballoo wrote:

What makes you believe that the public are unwilling to learn Irish?

Simply the fact that they aren’t speaking it, despite an awful lot of opportunity dating back to the foundation of the State (and even beyond, if you want to include voluntary efforts.)

hullaballoo wrote:

In other words, people who perceive that the Irish education system is above average are misled. That said, my point still holds true; Irish people are proud of academia.

I’m finding this a little hard to follow. Are you effectively saying that Irish people are deluded, because they believe the educational system is brilliant? (I’m not necessarily disagreeing, I’m just trying to find out where you are coming from.)

hullaballoo wrote:

I took the time to carefully read your posts. Please return the favour, and do not insult my intellect.

I read your post. I’m not setting out with an intention to insult, but you are not presenting a view that stands up to logic. Someone might choose to study a language because they think it might be useful abroad, say French, or because of the pursuit of pure knowledge, such as Miriam Mir, or as an expression of their idea of national identity, which seems to be what motivates many people to study Irish. None of this is reflected in your apparent suggestion that all languages are uniform. Miriam Mir would presumably be of less ‘use’ to someone seeking a language that would be useful abroad.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 6:07pm

This is moving slightly off-topic, but;

Ishmael Whale wrote:

I’m finding this a little hard to follow. Are you effectively saying that Irish people are deluded, because they believe the educational system is brilliant? (I’m not necessarily disagreeing, I’m just trying to find out where you are coming from.)

I apologise. I was merely agreeing with you, the Irish educational system is not great, and this has recently been recognised in the OECD report. It is true, however, that the number of "educated" people in Ireland compares strongly to that of other nations. Thus, on an international level, Ireland is considered a well-educated country. As a result of this, Irish academics pride themselves, perhaps in a way which is not merited, as learnèd people.

nesf · 13-12-2005 7:59pm

hullaballoo wrote:

As a result of this, Irish academics pride themselves, perhaps in a way which is not merited, as learnèd people.

Ahh, but an education system does not an academic make.

In this country you do have very good and affordable access to third level education. That in itself is a reason to pride ourselves on the level of education in this country. There are many many issues with our system but at least third level education of a good standard is accessible to the vast majority of the populace. Something that is not true of many other developed countries.

SeanW · 13-12-2005 9:52pm

I really can’t believe you said that about Latin and Sanskrit, that was careless.

Ok, so they're not totally useless to everyone.

Sanksrit may be useful to archaeologiests. But to the average person, to me, to Joe Bloggs on the bus, it has no use not only in everyday life but ever. Its useless to most people. Irish is similar, but not to the same extent. The former does not have enough use to mandate compulsory education, the latter for some reason does.

I stand over what I've said, you said no-one can question any language useless without saying all languages are useless because there's an alternative. My point is that not every language is the same, and some languages are more useful than others. Languages that are likely not to have a use, should not be mandatory. If your rousing defense of Sanksrit and Latin were to hold water, then surely another 1500 student hours would have to be spent on them?

Regarding the insults, they've been going both ways for some time, so don't play the innocent. As a person who believes strongly in "live and let live" I think very badly of those who consider themselves superior to others and want to force their views on others, and impose a view of one's identity on people who don't hold it.
People like that make me sick. In addition to this, your of view our young people is very poor, way worse than is justified. So I stand over everything I've said.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 11:07pm

SeanW wrote:

In addition to this, your of view our young people is very poor, way worse than is justified. So I stand over everything I've said.

YOUR opinion. I'm 21. I stand over everything I said too. I'll agree to disagree.

SeanW · 18-12-2005 11:16am

I just turned 23. And I know that if a young person isn't actively involved in their education by the time they're in 5th year, they're not going to do very well in their exams. Whether that means they won't do well in life or not is another matter.

As for Drivers. Ed. taking a "back seat" to "academia" (a.k.a. shelving life saving-and-enriching education in favour of a historical language on life support) well, next time some poor unfortunate young person ends up in pieces on a roadside, you can go tell their family how great it was they were learning Irish instead of drivers ed since you agree with both decisions so strongly?

Perhaps you can tell me why hurting our children to keep the language in a Terry Schaivo style state for the past 80 years and indefinately into the future is a great idea.

Then you can tell us why few or no others nation on Earth are maintaining multilingualism purely for the sake of it.

Then you can tell us why we shouldn't worry that you have to go to college here in Ireland to learn things you can learn easily in a U.S. high school (a system for which you clearly have much contempt).

I highly doubt that you can.

nesf · 18-12-2005 5:03pm

Sean W. it's a very big stretch to blame road accidents, in general, to a lack of a driver's ed.

And, the comparisson to US high school is pointless. It's far less regulated than here where everything is prescribed for schools outside of Transition Year.

JustCoz · 18-12-2005 5:50pm

SeanW wrote:

well, next time some poor unfortunate young person ends up in pieces on a roadside, you can go tell their family how great it was they were learning Irish instead of drivers ed since you agree with both decisions so strongly?

Thats a ridiculous leap. Really ridiculous. Thats what transition year is for plus most of these accidents are to do with drinking and driving so that comment is totally off-topic.

Then you can tell us why we shouldn't worry that you have to go to college here in Ireland to learn things you can learn easily in a U.S. high school (a system for which you clearly have much contempt).

What does this have to do with anything? Why the constant comparison to the US, if any comparisons are to be made, ones within the EU would be far more relevant. Who said anything about having contempt for their system? The two are just radically different that's all.

Diorraing · 19-12-2005 2:18am

SeanW wrote:

Ok, so they're not totally useless to everyone.

Sanksrit may be useful to archaeologiests. But to the average person, to me, to Joe Bloggs on the bus, it has no use not only in everyday life but ever. Its useless to most people. Irish is similar, but not to the same extent. The former does not have enough use to mandate compulsory education, the latter for some reason does.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that virtually nobody uses post Junior cert maths or English either? I dont know anyone who uses vectors, or trigonomotery. If you get rid of compulsory Irish, fine but by your own logic you have to get rid of compulsory maths and english.
BTW thats a lovely Irish name you have

SeanW · 19-12-2005 11:22am

Who said anything about having contempt for their system? The two are just radically different that's all.

Withdrawn. I had confused you and hullaballo with Cliste, who had started the debate with a major anti-American slant. My apologies for this error.

The point I was making re: Irish vs. Drivers Ed. is that we don't have a problem with identity, but we have a major one regarding road safety. The education system was designed in the 1930s when DeVelera thought we'd all be ultra-traditionalists who spoke Gaeilge, bowed down before the nearest priest, and lived in deathly fear of those horrible, evil Brits. We also didn't have many cars back then.

Times have changed and we no longer define self-sufficiency as not having any kind of links with the outside world except the boat to Britian or America. We've got a lot of new money and most people/families now have cars. Also - and this is the key point - despite 80 years of compulsory Irish education and numerous government initiatives have achieved nothing and the people have spoken, in English. However nothing has changed in government, particularly in Education, except more revisions to the curriculum to add more Irish as IW pointed out.

The Irish language doesn't define us as a people. No more than Leprechauns, Pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, Dancing at the crossroads, those red-light religious pictures that everyone used to have in their hallways ... some things have just passed their sell-by date and compulsive Irish is one of them.

We don't have to be forced to go to GAA games, listen to Trad music, drink Guinness, eat Taytos, form a "Green Army" to support the national soccer team in away games, and those of us who choose to make the Irish language a part of their lives do so of their own volition, like the ONE person I know, who listens to commentary of GAA matches in Irish on the radio. And in these modern times, our governemnt doesn't have to force both nationals and foreigners alike to listen modern Irish musicians such as Bono, U2, Enya, Phil Lynott, Sinead O'Connor, the Pogues, The Corrs and so on.

What does compulsory Irish achieve when almost no-one speaks it and we have such a strong identity and traditions in other areas?

It acheives nothing because firstly no-one uses it, and secondly we have a very very strong identity and a extremely strong musical and artistic tradition which survives strongly to this day, but does NOT depend on the Irish language to surive. Our culture and traditions are so strong that the lack of a language is a non-issue.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that virtually nobody uses post Junior Cert ...

My whole point, the 2nd level education system needs an overhaul. Preferably with a new set of civil servants or (shudder) consultants.

What we need IMO going into the future is more technologies, more sciences, more business, drivers ed, foreign languages, musical studies and arts. A varied student focused curriculum, with a generous helping of electives. Things like Irish should be made elective (where I have no doubt that some students would decide to take it) and Religion abolished (2005 and we still have Religious Education in school, WTF?). A complete review is required.

BTW thats a lovely Irish name you have

Thanks. I'm happy to have it.

GaryOR · 19-12-2005 2:36pm

The Irish language doesn't define us as a people. No more than Leprechauns, Pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, Dancing at the crossroads, those red-light religious pictures that everyone used to have in their hallways ... some things have just passed their sell-by date and compulsive Irish is one of them.

The Irish Language will always define us as a people, long after me and you have passed on (passed sell-by date)...

The entire debate about compulsive Irish was that it would improve its position in Irish society and culture...
i think only a moron would argue at this stage that it would improve it in any way...

And anyone who would argue in its favours simply sees this as one step towards its complete removal and death

out of interest you might want to read this article from the Irish Times: http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=825&viewby=date

Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

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