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Stolen guns recovered
Comments
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BattleCorp wrote: »So, walking along a road and a farmer pointed a gun at you? Really?
And where the fcuk were you sleepwalking when you had a gun pointed at you? Or am I misunderstanding things, was the gun owner sleepwalking?
Apologies but colour me sceptical.
Really. Walking along a road, and not even on the farmers land.
I was staying in someone's house, sleepwalked and made enough noise for them to think it was a break in.Again, unsubstantiable claims. IOW hearsay.For starters i didn't quote the law and again you are making baseless assumptions about the actions of a community of people you know nothing about.What law, mandating what?Yes we do, An GArdaí have it on PULSE. Where each firearm was stolen from and whether that person was an RFD or private owner.
This is your idea of logical thinking?
How? How is having them stored in a safe wit trigger locks and/or alarms careless? You are now bordering on being argumentative simply to illicit a reaction. [/QUOTE]
Can you categorically tell me that every firearm that was reported stolen last year, was stored in the correct manner?No, and no. So that is another "logical" reason with no basis in reality or law
Just in case there’s any misinterpretation of my quote, what I’m saying is that I know there’s no market for stolen guns or parts among genuine sportspeople.
But theft can be categorized into opportunistic or targeted. If criminals aren’t interested, and there’s no second hand market, then why are thieves going to such effort to steal them?You're making a presumptive leap that you cannot support with data or facts. Look on social media where the rules are not as strict as on a forum like this and you'll find that people still educate and inform others of what is right and wrong. The shooting community is a tight knit one and we understand that firearm ownership is a privilege, not a right, and that privilege can be removed for any reason. With the time and money we invest in our sport, each person, no one wants to jeopardize that by acting outside the law.
And you’re making the inverse presumption that all gun owners form a single conscientious, responsible, law abiding hive mind. I’ve specifically differentiated careless owners that I’ve personally seen (who I know are the minority) from others (on this forum), and yet you seem to want to take umbrage to that.And what about the criminals?
Of course, I’ve never argued otherwise.I cannot remember or find one case of a firearm owner being arrested or imprisoned/fined for leaving their firearms sitting around.
On that point, while some with one shotgun may not be required to have a safe the law says they must break the firearm into its component parts, store the parts in different locations throughout the house and have a trigger lock on the gun. So its not a case of a shotgun sitting in a hot-press somewhere.
So what you’re saying is, because the law says so, it’s always the case? That’s patently ridiculous. By that measure of reasoning, only 4 dogs left a mess on the streets of Cork in 21 years.
https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Just-four-dog-foul-fines-issued-in-Cork-in-21-years-dc2b8979-150b-4365-a6f0-28025ffbbb3a-ds0 -
I rest my case0
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With this Covid-19 thing i'm stuck at home so nothing better to do than argue some things with people.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Kevin Irving wrote:As is pretty much anything that anyone says online.Just because you wouldn’t do it, doesn’t mean that nobody would.I’m trying to differentiate between actions that I have personally seen which I would deem irresponsible,and the community here who evidently take a different approach.
See why people are skeptical about your interactions here?That firearms must be stored in a particular manner.Can you categorically tell me that every firearm that was reported stolen last year, was stored in the correct manner?........ then why are thieves going to such effort to steal them?
If you're asking for an educated guess i'd hazard the firearms are not the intended target, simply an afterthought. The real target would be the ammo. True criminals can have guns bought or imported through illegal channels, but the ammo is larger, bulkier and harder to keep flowing.
Firearms stolen from homes can be traced, those illegally imported cannot. Thieves and scum don't want the authorities to be able to trace back where the guns came from and as An Gardaí have already admitted they don't recover the majority of firearms used in crimes they cannot give data on where the firearms come from.And you’re making the inverse presumption that all gun owners form a single conscientious, responsible, law abiding hive mind.
240,000 firearms in the state, 160,000 licensees and the number of injuries, shootings, crimes and criminal activity linked to any of those 160,000 is so low as to be insignificant (absolute zero is a fallacy).I’ve specifically differentiated careless owners that I’ve personally seen (who I know are the minority) from others (on this forum), and yet you seem to want to take umbrage to that.
Secondly what is it that you claim they done wrong? One you say was a case of someone thinking you were a burglar, and the other, which i don't believe for a minute, is some random farmer pointed a gun at you for walking down a road!So what you’re saying is, because the law says so, it’s always the case?That’s patently ridiculous.
To quote the late, great, Chris Farley,:
“I can get a great look at a t-bone steak by shoving my head up a bull's ass but I'd rather take the butchers word for it."
You have thousands of firearm owners on this forum and of those replying they are all telling you that your made up stories are, well, made up, and the law allows for nothing of what you've mentioned and you still think you know better from your invented, two, incidents.By that measure of reasoning, only 4 dogs left a mess on the streets of Cork in 21 years.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Lock it up FFS Cass. He is like my oul fella was, he could be completely wrong and be obviously so, but all the devils in hell could not get him to admit it.0
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I cannot lock a thread because its become tiresome, but i also not trying to convince him of the error of his ways. Its more aimed at a rebuttal so others reading it, that are not familiar with firearms either, don't see the baseless assumptions, wild accusations and tall stories going unchallenged.
Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
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I cannot lock a thread because its become tiresome, but i also not trying to convince him of the error of his ways. Its more aimed at a rebuttal so others reading it, that are not familiar with firearms either, don't see the baseless assumptions, wild accusations and tall stories going unchallenged.
It sure has.0 -
However not everything is making unfounded accusations against a particular section of the community as you have done against firearm owners.
I've been careful to continuously differentiate between careless vs. conscientious owners. As far as I can work out, you're far more keen to align yourself with anyone at all who owns a firearm, than you are to call out (the very few) irresponsible owners.Instead of commenting on unsubstantiable stories here why not ring the people in charge of dealing with such incidents. I'll give ya their number - 999
So you claim that one or two separate, and unprovable, instances creates a pattern yet when everyone here has said otherwise and that is an anomaly?
See why people are skeptical about your interactions here?
You're way off the mark here - please quote where I've said it's a pattern. I know they were isolated incidents.
Nevertheless, when I even dare to talk about a negative experiences I've had (among other positive ones I must add), you're more interested in discrediting what I had to say rather than take it at face value and even consider that someone may have had a lapse of judgment.As i'm not a scumbag criminal i wouldn't know.
If you're asking for an educated guess i'd hazard the firearms are not the intended target, simply an afterthought.The real target would be the ammo. True criminals can have guns bought or imported through illegal channels, but the ammo is larger, bulkier and harder to keep flowing.
Firearms stolen from homes can be traced, those illegally imported cannot. Thieves and scum don't want the authorities to be able to trace back where the guns came from and as An Gardaí have already admitted they don't recover the majority of firearms used in crimes they cannot give data on where the firearms come from.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me. If they've gone to the trouble steal ammo, may as well take the gun too.There is nothing presumptive about it.
240,000 firearms in the state, 160,000 licensees and the number of injuries, shootings, crimes and criminal activity linked to any of those 160,000 is so low as to be insignificant (absolute zero is a fallacy).
As you say, absolute zero is a fallacy, and yet within that group of 160,000, there are zero careless owners?That you have claim to seen.
Secondly what is it that you claim they done wrong? One you say was a case of someone thinking you were a burglar, and the other, which i don't believe for a minute, is some random farmer pointed a gun at you for walking down a road!
Again with the sly discreditation, you know full well I can't prove it years after the fact.
I don't actually see anything much wrong with the first incident apart from the easily accessibility of the gun. As for the farmer, maybe he thought we were checking the place out, maybe he thought it was funny, I've no idea.Yes.
More regular posters to this forum have even mentioned themselves about knowing people who store guns under the bed, and yet you flat out refuse to acknowledge this even happens - because the law says it shouldn't.Your distrust and closed minded attitude means no matter what i say you will still find fault with a community and section of society you have no practical experience with.
You have thousands of firearm owners on this forum and of those replying they are all telling you that your made up stories are, well, made up, and the law allows for nothing of what you've mentioned and you still think you know better from your invented, two, incidents.
I can't say it enough times, I don't have any issue with firearms whatsoever., or their owners as a group. None. I was just interested in the actual situation around storage and theft of firearms. Thank you for your answers on that front, honestly.
However, it is ironic that you mention distrust, and then immediately call me a liar. It's not surprising that an us vs. them mentality develops if that's how new posters are treated, albeit ones with different options. May as well se the forum to private and keep out anyone with genuine questions.0 -
The more I suffer through reading this the more I have come to the conclusion, that you are trying to get members of the gun community to admit to a certain amount of flouting of the firearms laws, and for us to admit publicly that illegal activity is carrying on and that we are condoning it. But to what end I am unsure of yet.
You seem very insistent that we believe your experiences on your say so, irrespective of how bizzare your stories are.0 -
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Normally if you ignore someone and don't give them the space, they get bored and go away.0
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Kevin Irving wrote: »... .
Kevin,
If your serious about wanting to know more of the facts about our sport, learn about the legislation, the safety protocols etc. then why not come and visit a club, maybe meet a few of the people from this forum etc., once the coronavirus has passed?
There are clubs in most parts of the county, and you'll find 99% of people are decent and would happily spend a bit of time with you, if they thought you were sincere.
If you didn't want to meet anyone from this forum, you could still go and visit most clubs by prior arrangement, be shown around by one of the staff there etc. Just contact one of the clubs directly.Thanks,
G.
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Another long one, actually a really long one so strap in.Kevin Irving wrote: »I've been careful to continuously differentiate between careless vs. conscientious owners.I think they’re very much related. Opportunistic crime thrives on carelessness.Whether an opportunistic teenager finds it in the hallway, or a hardened criminal cuts a safe from the wall, the end result is the same.whether due to negligence, or targeting by criminals, guns keep falling into criminal handsAs far as I can work out, you're far more keen to align yourself with anyone at all who owns a firearm, than you are to call out (the very few) irresponsible owners.
As for calling anyone out, well as soon as someone posts on this forum with their illegal activity believe me i'll be the first to call them on it.You're way off the mark here - please quote where I've said it's a pattern. I know they were isolated incidents.Nevertheless, when I even dare to talk about a negative experiences I've had (among other positive ones I must add),you're more interested in discrediting what I had to say rather than take it at face value and even consider that someone may have had a lapse of judgment.
I also do not comment on unsubstantiated stories from your youth/past.Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me. If they've gone to the trouble steal ammo, may as well take the gun too.As you say, absolute zero is a fallacy, and yet within that group of 160,000, there are zero careless owners?
As i said before the costs (financial and time) involved in being a firearm owner is not insignificant. No one goes into it with a "blase" attitude. Anyone that has even a hint of such an attitude soons learns quickly that An Gardaí and the shooting community as a whole take the matter very seriously and look unfavourably on anyone that brings the sport into disrepute.Again with the sly discreditation, you know full well I can't prove it years after the fact.
Once again, and this is NOT tinfoil hat territory, you must understand that our sport has sustained "attack" after "attack" from all corners simply because we use a firearm instead of a hurl or racket (as said before). I've given you some examples of how the legitimate sport of shooting has come under attack from those that claim to be animal right supporters, from An Gardaí, from the Dept of Justice, from ordinary people who believe all guns ar bad (m'kay), and the list goes on.
We have had legislative changes made to our sport based on the actions of criminals such as with poor Shane's murder, mass shootings in America or other European countries, and none of which has ever happened in Ireland in over 170 years or official shooting sports.I don't actually see anything much wrong with the first incident apart from the easily accessibility of the gun.
Given the current epidemic of the Chinese virus i've spent a lot of time in my gun room cleaning my various firearms, removing scopes, checking various things, going through my equipment, etc. So chances are at some point during the day i may have a firearm out of the safe. I am breaking no laws.As for the farmer, maybe he thought we were checking the place out, maybe he thought it was funny, I've no idea.I get that as community representative, you have to nail your colours to the mast on this one, but come on, do you really think that any law in this country is adhered to 100%?
Shooting sports is older than the GAA, did you know that? We have a safer record than any other sport with zero deaths and single digit injuries over decades of shooting. All of this is self policed for the most part. I say for the most part as the law sets out what we can and cannot do, and due to the nature of shooting sports its up to each person to make sure they do it right as An Gardaí cannot properly police it. Its an administrative impossibility.More regular posters to this forum have even mentioned themselves about knowing people who store guns under the bed, and yet you flat out refuse to acknowledge this even happens - because the law says it shouldn't.I can't say it enough times, I don't have any issue with firearms whatsoever., or their owners as a group. None. I was just interested in the actual situation around storage and theft of firearms. Thank you for your answers on that front, honestly.However, it is ironic that you mention distrust, and then immediately call me a liar.
However i still take issue with the two supposed incidents you mention. One is a sleepwalking incident as a kid and the other while walking as a teen.
In the first case:
Where the hell were you that as a kid, under 12, someone thought you enough of a threat to point a gun at you. How did you know it was a licensed firearm? This assertion implies you know the person involved. If you know the person, then its safe to assume they know you and that you sleepwalk. So why would they point at firearm at you? Then to the question of where were you sleepwalking? If it was in the house of the person you know then why would they be so nervous about a child walking through the house, presumably at night, who has a history of sleepwalking?
In the second case:
While as a teenager, just walking down a road. As another poster said, i've been around a good few years and never had this happen to me, not once, whether i was carrying a firearm myself or not. So where were you that this happened to you? Was it a driveway or farm/private land that you should not have been on in the first place? When was it? Night or day? Why did you not inform An Gardai or even your parents so that they could deal with it themselves or through An Gardaí?
Do you see why i'm/we're so skeptical of such terse statements. Without more info or some context they're meaningless and made to look sensationalist and a common occurrence rather than the isolated incident it may have been.It's not surprising that an us vs. them mentality develops if that's how new posters are treated,
If you want more look at how the press treat us. In the same year Derval O'Rouke came fourth in a HEAT, still missing out on an actual place in the final of a race, a contingent of Irish sportsmen/women won dozens of medals in a world shooting competition in Germany and not one paper would cover them or their success, even after we contacted them to ask if they would.
On Prime Time, on two occasions, sports shooting representative were interviewed and when the programme went to air the footage was edited/cut to cast us in a bad light and in one particular episode Miriam O'Callaghan could not hide her contempt or bias towards the shooting representatives and cut them off mid sentence, dismissed their points as "bamboozling" the viewers.
We've even had An Gardaí link legal gun owners to criminality by suggestive and carefully worded press briefings. Showing seized gangland weapons and suggesting they could have been stolen. An Gardaí have access to PULSE and a quick check would show if they were stolen, but as they did not say this it meant the firearms were not stolen from legally held owners, but instead of clarifying this point it was left purposely vague.
Within two weeks of the senseless and violent murder of Shane Geoghegan in 2008 the Minister for Justice implemented a host of new laws that came into, retrospective, effect in June 2009. It made some firearms illegal, and destroyed an entire section of the sport. When questioned about it afterwards the Minister admitted it would have zero impact on criminal shootings but the press ran with the story of "thousands of the guns taken off the streets".
So called animal rights activists have taken pictures from this very site and photoshopped axes and other instruments into the pictures to make it seem that we club animals to death and are intentionally cruel. It made us have to change the rules of the forum so people would post pictures with watermarks or the firearm across the animal so it could not be photoshopped out. The same "activists" have criminal records, history of violence, and have caused untold devastation to local flora/fauna by releasing farmed animals such as Mink without any forethought or knowledge as to the consequences. They also never acknowledge the hundreds of thousands if not millions of Euro spent by the shooting community on conservation programs, necessary cullings, etc. that is from our own pockets.albeit ones with different options. May as well se the forum to private and keep out anyone with genuine questions.
With that knowledge it would be easy to make it private, but then what have we to hide? Our sport is 100% legal. To hide it away like some dirty secret would only serve to hammer home the already prevailing attitude that we have something to be guilty about or ashamed off. There is no better "disinfectant" for these baseless rumors than the cold light of day. People can come and read or take part in the discussions, but the ofrum is here for those of a similar mindset and the moderators (myself included) are here to make sure that the regular members have somewhere "safe" to discuss their sport without fear of labels or branding from the largely uneducated masses (not intended as an insult, but 99% of people know nothing about the sport).
As was said above why not come along. Its free to visit a range and the people there will embarrass you with their hospitality. They will show you around, explain the basics of the sport, the different types of shooting and different guns used, and if you're up for it the legislation required to be a firearm owner (without boring you to death) and perhaps even allow you to shoot a limited number of firearms (which is legal in Ireland on an authorised range and under supervision of a trained person).
Then you can truly say you have both sides of the story, and can make a more informed decision.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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solarwinds wrote: »The more I suffer through reading this ....that you are trying to get members of the gun community to admit to a certain amount of flouting of the firearms laws, and for us to admit publicly that illegal activity is carrying on and that we are condoning it. But to what end I am unsure of yet.
You seem very insistent that we believe your experiences on your say so, irrespective of how bizzare your stories are.
The multi-quote doesn't help, I admit. Nor does picking apart every line as we've gotten into.
When you put it in the perspective of a public forum (which I often forget is the case), I can see the reasoning some people have come to in the defence of their sport so strongly.
For my part, I mentioned it in relation to theft moreso, which was the original point of the thread - in that I think the gun was very readily accessible by the owner in each case. After that, it's not nice to be called a liar. All I can say is that I fully appreciate that's not representative of anyone on here or the community as a whole.Kevin,
If your serious about wanting to know more of the facts about our sport, learn about the legislation, the safety protocols etc. then why not come and visit a club, maybe meet a few of the people from this forum etc., once the coronavirus has passed?
There are clubs in most parts of the county, and you'll find 99% of people are decent and would happily spend a bit of time with you, if they thought you were sincere.
If you didn't want to meet anyone from this forum, you could still go and visit most clubs by prior arrangement, be shown around by one of the staff there etc.
I would actually like to do that, really, thanks for the suggestion. My limited experiences have been something I've really enjoyed in the past visiting the US, but never had an opportunity to do in this country. Weather getting better now too, so perfect time to look into it, which I will do. Thanks!0 -
Cass, looks like we just crossed posts there.
Thanks for the response, I'll write a proper reply in the morning!0 -
So many fudds...
Obviously having a firearm on display in a window is a dumb thing to do and shows the owner's incompetence, but to make a blanket statement that it is the owner's fault if firearms managed to get stolen is just silly. Most of us are required to have our firearms in a safe, and most of us comply.
Regardless, at the end of the day as owners we can only do so much, the criminal is ultimately responsible for the theft and whatever they choose to do with the firearm.
I'd wager 99% of us are very responsible, if we weren't we wouldn't have our licenses in the first place.
I'd also wager 99% of crimes are done with illegal firearms that were never in anyone's legal possession. Why would criminals bother with our over unders and bolties when they can get their hands on IRA stockpiles and smuggled imports from dodge-istan. In a lot of ways it's easier and safer for a criminal to get these things on the black market than breaking into someone's home.0 -
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Brontosaurus wrote: »So many fudds...
Obviously having a firearm on display in a window is a dumb thing to do and shows the owner's incompetence, but to make a blanket statement that it is the owner's fault if firearms managed to get stolen is just silly. Most of us are required to have our firearms in a safe, and most of us comply.
Regardless, at the end of the day as owners we can only do so much, the criminal is ultimately responsible for the theft and whatever they choose to do with the firearm.
I'd wager 99% of us are very responsible, if we weren't we wouldn't have our licenses in the first place.
I'd also wager 99% of crimes are done with illegal firearms that were never in anyone's legal possession. Why would criminals bother with our over unders and bolties when they can get their hands on IRA stockpiles and smuggled imports from dodge-istan. In a lot of ways it's easier and safer for a criminal to get these things on the black market than breaking into someone's home.
I'd bet money that the house was getting broken into anyway and the guns were a bonus. Look at call out videos on YouTube, and the weapons being brandished are predominantly shotguns, and not Glocks or 9mm semi autos which gangland criminals prefer.
Then put 2 + 2 together.0 -
I'll just leave this here....
https://www.breakingnews.ie/discover/james-bond-guns-worth-110k-stolen-from-enfield-home-990466.html"Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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The owner was shaken but not stirred...Tch Bum!:P by the sound of it stolen to order ?
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Deactivated of course, might as well be talking about glass paperweights being half-inched. Still a pity of course, some wealthy film buff having his posessions stolen. They are now probably owned by a godfather in eastern europe who has many gold teeth and a trilby hat.0
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Or more like a ridiciously over developed body sporting very alarming tattos and a penchant for Speedo swim trunks and tracksuits,along with an ice blond 21 or younger "model" girlfriend,dressed in somthing a porn actress would be embarrassed to be seen in.Commonly found in London,Cannes and any other overpriced place throwing money around like it was water.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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I've deleted the last few posts.
One poster mentioned how they [the posts] were "straying into RTKBA territory". Eh, no. They were waving that line goodbye in the rear view mirror a few posts back.
Ireland has no right to firearm laws, no second amendment and no RTKBA so any discussion of it from an Irish perspective is completely off limits.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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