Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

sebdavis · 30-03-2021 8:06am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Holland is gone and Snyman isn't back who are Munster's locks next season as it stands?

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2021/03/03/munster-confirm-rg-snyman-back-running-after-injury-layoff/
What would suggest he isn't back next season?

irishbucsfan · 30-03-2021 8:08am

sebdavis wrote: »

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2021/03/03/munster-confirm-rg-snyman-back-running-after-injury-layoff/
What would suggest he isn't back next season?

Because he’s returning from an extremely complex serious knee injury and Munster are signing someone in the same position. It’s a hypothetical.

aloooof · 30-03-2021 8:19am

sebdavis wrote: »

JVG over numerous seasons has given the least amount of minutes to academy players. No idea on this season but certainly last season.
discussed many times on "The Molecast" podcast

Do you have the actual stats? Cos “The least amount of minutes” could mean anything from 5 mins to 500 mins.

My impression is that this has been by far Munster’s best season in recent years for playing youth, and it was trending that way last season too. Casey, Healy, Nash, Liam Coombes, Gav Coombes, O’Sullivan, Barron, the Wycherly’s. All guys 23 or under who have all gotten decent game time this season.

aloooof · 30-03-2021 8:24am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Where this leaves Fineen Wycherley is another question. Even if Beirne plays in the backrow move often, that still leaves Wycherley behind Snyman, Jenkins and Kleyn. By the middle of next season, he'll be 24. The Jenkins signing will make much more sense if Wycherley is leaving. Perhaps it would be better for Munster and Ireland in the long run if Wycherley were to leave and go somewhere where he can start 20+ games for a year or two. That's not likely at any of the provinces.

When you look at the overall squad and the depth in the back five of the pack, Munster are losing Holland, TOD (tbc) and CJ. Snyman and Hodnett are coming back from long-term layoffs. Beirne will be away with Ireland. POM and Coombes could be away with Ireland. We don't know what Wycherley's contract situation is. You could argue there is a gap for a signing.

Have we heard the extent of Fineen’s injury yet? Could it as simple as that, and he’s out long term?

irelandrover · 30-03-2021 8:25am

I think Munster have been reluctant up to now to play the younger players. This season started to see a bit of a change. Its no coincidence that it started to change when better players started to come through.

Now they are letting JJ go and putting faith in Carbery, Healy and Crowley. Thats a very young outhalf lineup. Casey seems firm second choice and i expect challenging for first team next year. Sweetam is being left leave with younger guys behind him. CJ is leaving and coombes will be filling his position. Knox and salanoa will get far more chances next year as will Wycherly. Hooker is an issue. The important positions on the pitch all have young players challenging for starting positions.

So we were bad in the past but it could easily be argued that the players werent there to throw into the team. Now the academy seems to be producing and the players are getting a chance.

The Inbetween is mine · 30-03-2021 8:43am

I must admit, I'm disappointed to see Marshall leaving us... Injuries haven't been kind to him, but he's probably the best hooker in Ireland with ball in hand.
Add to that he's now IQ, I thought someone would hang onto him in Ireland .... Perhaps like CJ he wants to return for family reasons also.
Quite a changing of the guard seems to be happening, I thought we'd lose about 6 of the first team squad and it's looking like that at a minimum now...

Burkie1203 · 30-03-2021 9:08am

irelandrover wrote: »

I think Munster have been reluctant up to now to play the younger players. This season started to see a bit of a change. Its no coincidence that it started to change when better players started to come through.

Now they are letting JJ go and putting faith in Carbery, Healy and Crowley. Thats a very young outhalf lineup. Casey seems firm second choice and i expect challenging for first team next year. Sweetam is being left leave with younger guys behind him. CJ is leaving and coombes will be filling his position. Knox and salanoa will get far more chances next year as will Wycherly. Hooker is an issue. The important positions on the pitch all have young players challenging for starting positions.

So we were bad in the past but it could easily be argued that the players werent there to throw into the team. Now the academy seems to be producing and the players are getting a chance.

6n and an extended Autumn series forced their hand on using the squad.

aloooof · 30-03-2021 9:15am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

6n and an extended Autumn series forced their hand on using the squad.

So even when they do play younger players, they don't get any credit, it's cos they were "forced"?

It's hardly like the 6N and games in the autumn were unforeseen events; the "extended" element amounted to one extra game.

ionadnapokot · 30-03-2021 9:35am

Sweetnam is gone purely on a short term deal? I'd hate to see him leave Irish rugby.
Connacht would surely be a good spot for him and the IRFU.

nerd69 · 30-03-2021 9:37am

NewWay82 wrote: »

Knox, solomona, Barron, Ahearn, Jack o sullivan, gavin Coombes, fineen wycherly, josh wycherly These players are not trusted to play at an earlier age like they are in leinster and abroad.
Billy Holland played dead rubber matches this year when Ahearn could have been getting invaluable experience. Same with archer/Ryan for knox/solomona. Josh wycherly hasn't played since the clermont game.
Leinster trust their players earlier and they benefit way more because of it.
Personally, I think if we sign another average SA forward it's a disgrace and a waste of money. We've been doing this for years and it hasn't worked but they expect it to work this time??
I think you'll find that's the description of insanity.
Open your eyes Thomond, you're living in the past.

Ahern has just turned 21 made 6 appearances and captained munster this year

Fineen Wytcherly is 23 and has 56 caps already

Jos at 22 has 17 caps all of them this year I think

Coombes is a starter

Casey 21 has 24 caps (and would have gotten more but was in the ireland squad)

Ben healy 21 17 caps

Alex kendellans recently got his first cap at 19

I'm unsure that your aware of what your talking about to be honest Munster have plenty of youth playing this may have made sense a few years ago

irelandrover · 30-03-2021 9:38am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Sweetnam is gone purely on a short term deal? I'd hate to see him leave Irish rugby.
Connacht would surely be a good spot for him and the IRFU.

He's gone. His contract was up at the end of the year and they leyt him out of it early.

Like JJ [Hanrahan], we were eager to retain the services of Darren beyond the current campaign, but it hasn’t been feasible,’ said head Johann van Graan alongside the news.

phog · 30-03-2021 9:44am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

6n and an extended Autumn series forced their hand on using the squad.

Greatest load of bollocks, ever.

ionadnapokot · 30-03-2021 9:52am

irelandrover wrote: »

He's gone. His contract was up at the end of the year and they leyt him out of it early.

Like JJ [Hanrahan], we were eager to retain the services of Darren beyond the current campaign, but it hasn’t been feasible,’ said head Johann van Graan alongside the news.

Management speak for "we wanted rid"
I know Sweetnam is gone but to be leaving only a short term deal is odd for a fella of his talents.
I thought Connacht would love to get a player like him.

The Inbetween is mine · 30-03-2021 10:20am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Management speak for "we wanted rid"
I know Sweetnam is gone but to be leaving only a short term deal is odd for a fella of his talents.
I thought Connacht would love to get a player like him.

He has 3 months to win himself a contract at La Rochelle....if not, he's putting himself in the shop window during that time.
Cant see Connacht offering him money if Munster can't tbh....he's going to end up in France or England

30-03-2021 10:22am

I have Munster down for giving 1571 minutes to Academy players so far this season.

Player - Minutes - As Starter - As Substitute - Notes
Thomas Ahern - 219 - 2 - 4
Jack Crowley - 33 - 0 - 3* - * Includes one substitute appearance as an unused sub
Jack Daly - 35 - 0 - 2
Jake Flannery - 58 - 1 - 1
Sean French - 58 - 0 - 1
Ben Healy - 602 - 6 - 8
John Hodnett - 193 - 2 - 1
Cian Hurley* - 80 - 1 - 0 - *Sub Academy
Alex Kendellen - 51 - 0 - 1
Josh Wycherley - 322 - 4 - 5

NewWay82 · 30-03-2021 10:25am

nerd69 wrote: »

Ahern has just turned 21 made 6 appearances and captained munster this year

Fineen Wytcherly is 23 and has 56 caps already

Jos at 22 has 17 caps all of them this year I think

Coombes is a starter

Casey 21 has 24 caps (and would have gotten more but was in the ireland squad)

Ben healy 21 17 caps

Alex kendellans recently got his first cap at 19

I'm unsure that your aware of what your talking about to be honest Munster have plenty of youth playing this may have made sense a few years ago

In what game did Ahern captain Munster? He's been highly touted and he's been held in reserve constantly for Billy Holland who was obviously retiring at the end of this season. Leinster promoted James Ryan as soon as he was deemed good enough irrelevant of age.

Fineen Wycherly has 56 caps so you have me there. Craig Casey is an exceptional talent and is helped that his dad is a development officer with Munster. Gavin Coombes is 23 and only became a starter this year. Jack O'Sullivan is 22 and only came through this season though he's long been touted as a serious prospect. 22/23 isn't that young. Look at Tom Curry started for England when he was 19. The same with N'Tamack/McKenzie/Jalibert/Marcus Smith. The problem is that people in Munster Rugby is that people think that players need 3/4 years in the academy developing while they could actually be missing their best years. The back rows in particular are being held back by signing average players like Botha/Cloete. If Munster had their way Matthewson would still be there and Casey would still be scrapping for minutes. The young players(and older players) aren't being helped in that they are no where near as physically developed as their Leinster counterparts. Hopefully the financial implications of Covid will propel us towards younger home grown talent. I'd rather win nothing producing Irish players instead of winning nothing paying average SA players/coaches big money.

thomond2006 · 30-03-2021 10:30am

NewWay82 wrote: »

In what game did Ahern captain Munster? He's been highly touted and he's been held in reserve constantly for Billy Holland who was obviously retiring at the end of this season. Leinster promoted James Ryan as soon as he was deemed good enough irrelevant of age.

Fineen Wycherly has 56 caps so you have me there. Craig Casey is an exceptional talent and is helped that his dad is a development officer with Munster. Gavin Coombes is 23 and only became a starter this year. Jack O'Sullivan is 22 and only came through this season though he's long been touted as a serious prospect. 22/23 isn't that young. Look at Tom Curry started for England when he was 19. The same with N'Tamack/McKenzie/Jalibert/Marcus Smith. The problem is that people in Munster Rugby is that people think that players need 3/4 years in the academy developing while they could actually be missing their best years. The back rows in particular are being held back by signing average players like Botha/Cloete. If Munster had their way Matthewson would still be there and Casey would still be scrapping for minutes. The young players(and older players) aren't being helped in that they are no where near as physically developed as their Leinster counterparts. Hopefully the financial implications of Covid will propel us towards younger home grown talent. I'd rather win nothing producing Irish players instead of winning nothing paying average SA players/coaches big money.

You may have answered your own question.

Can anyone argue that Coombes' development has been mis-managed? He's been exceptional in what his first full season in the lineup. What more could Munster have done? He was on the bench for the two Pro14 games prior to Covid / during 2020 6N so his breakthrough could have arrived earlier but for the pandemic.

Jack O'Sullivan IIRC missed the guts of a season through a serious injury. Craig Casey also missed time through injury before his breakthrough.

Quite often, you'll find that players who on the surface "didn't get opportunities" was because of injury.

The Inbetween is mine · 30-03-2021 10:36am

NewWay82 wrote: »

The young players(and older players) aren't being helped in that they are no where near as physically developed as their Leinster counterparts.

It's a joke, only saw that meme earlier

theVersatile · 30-03-2021 10:39am

Peter O’Mahony will be assessed over the week after sustaining a deep laceration to his thigh against Leinster and his availability will be determined later in the week.

There is good news for Dan Goggin as he has returned to training after recovering from a hand injury sustained against Benetton at the end of January.

Fineen Wycherley (neck) will progress his rehab this week and his availability will be determined later in the week.

Paddy Patterson has undergone surgery on his ankle injury and will begin rehabilitation under the care of the medical department.

Continuing to rehab: Neil Cronin (knee), RG Snyman (knee).

aloooof · 30-03-2021 10:42am

SUAF_1879 wrote: »

I have Munster down for giving 1571 minutes to Academy players so far this season.

Player - Minutes - As Starter - As Substitute - Notes
Thomas Ahern - 219 - 2 - 4
Jack Crowley - 33 - 0 - 3* - * Includes one substitute appearance as an unused sub
Jack Daly - 35 - 0 - 2
Jake Flannery - 58 - 1 - 1
Sean French - 58 - 0 - 1
Ben Healy - 602 - 6 - 8
John Hodnett - 193 - 2 - 1
Cian Hurley* - 80 - 1 - 0 - *Sub Academy
Alex Kendellen - 51 - 0 - 1
Josh Wycherley - 322 - 4 - 5

Add to this, there are guys 23 or under in the senior squad who have had very good game time this season, for example:
Gav Coombes - 1027 - 14 - 3
Fineen Wycherly - 700 - 9 - 6
Craig Casey - 693 - 9 - 5
Calvin Nash - 555 - 7 - 0
JOS - 439 - 5 - 4

yerrahbah · 30-03-2021 10:43am

Good news on Wycherley anyway.

If POM is unavailable I imagine JOD comes straight in vs Toulouse

thomond2006 · 30-03-2021 10:46am

I'd be surprised if POM can play. He looked in poor nick after Saturday. Getting Fineen back and into the 23 would be great but let's see what happens.

What dire news for Patterson. I hope this doesn't ruin his chances of a new contract (elsewhere). He was having a good game up to the injury.

Getting Goggin back for the RC is good news and he really needs to get minutes. He's had a lost season between all the injuries.

The Inbetween is mine · 30-03-2021 10:55am

I'm guessing Tommy O'Donnell will be confirmed as released quite soon as well. He shouldn't have any issues picking up a contract elsewhere.

My only feet going forward is TH... Archer and Ryan are both 33 this year... Salanoa is raw, very raw but might come good with time. I've not seen much from Knox to suggest he's the answer to anything...he was strolling around the pitch in his last game and one of the pundits referred to him as lazy...I dunno.. maybe be will develop.... but we need a top quality player inside a year as both our starters are out of contract next season.
..does Andrew Porter have any family in Limerick I wonder....

Rigor Mortis · 30-03-2021 10:56am

I think Munster have significantly upped their exposure for young players. I think they are reaping the rewards with Healy, Casey and Coombes. I think the habit Munster not trusting younger players have thankfully been left in the past. That said, I think the Jenkins deal is strange both from their point of view and from the IRFUs.

NewWay82 · 30-03-2021 11:00am

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'm guessing Tommy O'Donnell will be confirmed as released quite soon as well. He shouldn't have any issues picking up a contract elsewhere.

My only feet going forward is TH... Archer and Ryan are both 33 this year... Salanoa is raw, very raw but might come good with time. I've not seen much from Knox to suggest he's the answer to anything...he was strolling around the pitch in his last game and one of the pundits referred to him as lazy...I dunno.. maybe be will develop.... but we need a top quality player inside a year as both our starters are out of contract next season.
..does Andrew Porter have any family in Limerick I wonder....

Tommy O'Donnell who's 34 in May and has a terrible injury profile?? Do you really think he'll not retire? Are you related to him?

Give Solomona and Knox a chance before you write them off. Was this commentator who said he was rolling around Liam (joke) Toland?

thomond2006 · 30-03-2021 11:06am

Write this 100 times: Roman Salanoa

ujjjjjjjjj · 30-03-2021 11:22am

awec wrote: »

I actually cannot believe the IRFU have greenlit yet another SA signing for Munster, this is a mad one.

Absolutely nuts and if there are any Munster fans wondering why you haven't won anything in 10 years stop wondering.

This signing basically says we are going to continue to not trust the young local players and continue on the path we have been on.....

Sorry young locks you are not good enough and we want a journeyman lock from SA......

Whoever signed this off in the IRFU......well I better not say it........

Mark my words this will just be another Jean Kleyn at best performance and does nothing but block some promising young Munster locks. Does nothing for the national side.

30-03-2021 11:35am

Have Munster previously announced a relationship with SA rugby akin to Harlequins / NZ Rugby?

With the revolving door between Erasmus and VanGraan, getting two World Cup winners and now this it looks to me like there could be some kind of relationship between the province and South African rugby.

I don't have an issue with it - especially with the signing of Snyman / DDA and once it's not blocking progression of genuine talent it could be a positive thing, but has any kind of relationship ever been acknowledged or is this just a reflection of VanGraan's historical relationship with players there?

Also am I right in saying that the new signing is a former team mate of Snyman?

thomond2006 · 30-03-2021 11:52am

Former team-mates indeed.

sydthebeat · 30-03-2021 12:03pm

Van graan coached CJ when he was younger too

Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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