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Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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    #6752
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,182 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Reading the article, I'd take it with a pinch of salt until there are more sources reporting it. It starts off saying Munster are set to sign Jenkins. Then the last line is 'if the deal is officially confirmed'. So in other words it's the usual clip bait 42 article based on nothing other than speculation.

    It was first mentioned online by a UK based South African rugby journalist. At that point, I was sceptical. When Murray Kinsella (once upon a time of the Munster set up) writes an article on it though, I'd put a pretty significant level of faith in it.


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    #6753
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,947 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    awec wrote: »
    And they're mostly mince.

    Second row must be one of the strongest positions at Munster. Beirne, Kleyn, Snyman.

    Alright let's waste some time replying to this.

    THE LOOSEHEADS
    Kilcoyne - recently started ahead of Healy in an important Six Nations flash against England - famously powerful in the carry.

    Cronin - reliable substitute, has pulled many a jackal out of his backpack recently. Have been calls for him to be involved in Ireland camps but discipline probably holding him back. Operating on the assumption he isn't leaving.

    Josh Whycherley - a young prospect who's proven himself against Slimani in Clermont; nine appearances this season and more to build upon.

    Liam O Connor - recently returned from a cruciate which hit him when he was going nicely - ultimately he's a perfectly decent player for a fourth choice. He was trusted to come on in the dying minutes of the Clermont game while chasing the lead, so he's hardly cack.

    THE HOOKERS
    Niall Scannell - no player who collects 20 Irish caps is mince. Reliable scrum and line-out ; the traditional hooker. Unfortunately - the current international set up seems to be looking for something more than just solid basics (Herring brings a gritty breakdown game, Kelleher brings dynamic ball carrying - Scannell doesn't have a point of difference outside of his set piece fundamentals which seems to hold him back in Farrell's eyes). Regained the starting spot after a few injury set backs.

    Kevin O'Byrne - again, another guy who's had calls for call ups fall on deaf ears. Probably the most skillful ball handling hooker in the country, and Munster always play more expansively when he's in at first receiver. Could be capped this Summer IMO.

    Rhys Marshall - again, a more skillful than gritty hooker. The guy has also had some untimely injury set backs - but he's a very complete player.

    Barron - a fourth choice, haven't seen enough of him to comment.

    THE TIGHTHEADS
    John Ryan - Again, 23 Irish caps is no joke. A marauding scrummager, but admittedly no Andrew Porter or Tadhg Furlong in the loose.

    Stephen Archer - gets some very undue flack; the guy has over 200 Munster appearances and has shown an ability to adapt to a Larkham gameplan. Again, he's not Porter or Furlong but Jesus the guy is probably going to fill the Billy Holland role of getting unfairly criticised in his layer years before everybody realises what a legend he is in his retirement season.

    Keynan Knox and Roman Salanoa - two promising options who look like they might show a bit more in the loose, especially the Flyin' Hawaiian. Salanoa seems to pick up a good few niggles which might be problematic in future but has looked brilliant in sparks. Knox would be more nuts and bolts than Salanoa, but has shown himself to be well able to fill in at TH.

    NOT SURE
    James French - heard some rumours of him switching sides but not sure what the craic is with him.

    ____________________________________________

    I'm not saying these players are faultless, but just calling them mince without any back up is a joke comment


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    #6754
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    When does Hanrahan leave? Will he be around for the Rainbow Cup or leave before it?


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    #6755
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Alright let's waste some time replying to this.

    THE LOOSEHEADS
    Kilcoyne - recently started ahead of Healy in an important Six Nations flash against England - famously powerful in the carry.

    Cronin - reliable substitute, has pulled many a jackal out of his backpack recently. Have been calls for him to be involved in Ireland camps but discipline probably holding him back. Operating on the assumption he isn't leaving.

    Josh Whycherley - a young prospect who's proven himself against Slimani in Clermont; nine appearances this season and more to build upon.

    Liam O Connor - recently returned from a cruciate which hit him when he was going nicely - ultimately he's a perfectly decent player for a fourth choice. He was trusted to come on in the dying minutes of the Clermont game while chasing the lead, so he's hardly cack.

    THE HOOKERS
    Niall Scannell - no player who collects 20 Irish caps is mince. Reliable scrum and line-out ; the traditional hooker. Unfortunately - the current international set up seems to be looking for something more than just solid basics (Herring brings a gritty breakdown game, Kelleher brings dynamic ball carrying - Scannell doesn't have a point of difference outside of his set piece fundamentals which seems to hold him back in Farrell's eyes). Regained the starting spot after a few injury set backs.

    Kevin O'Byrne - again, another guy who's had calls for call ups fall on deaf ears. Probably the most skillful ball handling hooker in the country, and Munster always play more expansively when he's in at first receiver. Could be capped this Summer IMO.

    Rhys Marshall - again, a more skillful than gritty hooker. The guy has also had some untimely injury set backs - but he's a very complete player.

    Barron - a fourth choice, haven't seen enough of him to comment.

    THE TIGHTHEADS
    John Ryan - Again, 23 Irish caps is no joke. A marauding scrummager, but admittedly no Andrew Porter or Tadhg Furlong in the loose.

    Stephen Archer - gets some very undue flack; the guy has over 200 Munster appearances and has shown an ability to adapt to a Larkham gameplan. Again, he's not Porter or Furlong but Jesus the guy is probably going to fill the Billy Holland role of getting unfairly criticised in his layer years before everybody realises what a legend he is in his retirement season.

    Keynan Knox and Roman Salanoa - two promising options who look like they might show a bit more in the loose, especially the Flyin' Hawaiian. Salanoa seems to pick up a good few niggles which might be problematic in future but has looked brilliant in sparks. Knox would be more nuts and bolts than Salanoa, but has shown himself to be well able to fill in at TH.

    NOT SURE
    James French - heard some rumours of him switching sides but not sure what the craic is with him.

    ____________________________________________

    I'm not saying these players are faultless, but just calling them mince without any back up is a joke comment


    Here's the thing - If Munster want to be winning things (and they do) then they need a full International Quality Front 5 with subs . They have the 2nd rows , no question , but they simply don't have it in the front row, not even close.


    Kilcoyne is absolutely at the required level , no question at all.

    The rest are either - No longer operating at that level (Ryan, Scannell) , Not yet there but might be in a few years (Wycherley, Salanoa, Knox) or not there and never will be (all the rest).

    Guys like Archer , O'Byrne, Marshall and Cronin are solid reliable Pro14 players that will get the job done week in week out on a wet Friday night in Cork or Swansea - But they are absolutely not guys that are going to form the backbone of a team winning a European Cup.

    That's not to demean them in ay way shape or form , those guys are essential and hugely valuable to clubs - See Michael Bent in Leinster as an example.

    BUT - The potential value of an early 30's International TH playing for the next 2 years or so and training day in day out with Wycherley , Knox and Salanoa et al is huge.


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    #6756
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When does Hanrahan leave? Will he be around for the Rainbow Cup or leave before it?

    Would imagine it'd be after, most contracts run until June to cover off any of the European competitions


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    #6757
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    How many of the Leinster front row will be in the discussion to tour with the Lions this year?

    Compare that to how many of the Munster front row will be.

    IMO that's a large part of the difference between the sides at the moment


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    #6758
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,639 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The article says Jenkins plays blind side at the moment in Japan, so if he comes over and plays blind side here it makes perfect sense.
    We will be lacking a bit of grunt in the back row against the top teams with Stander and Holland retiring, and probably Tommy O'Donnell too.
    1. Kilcoyne/Cronin/Loughman/O'Connor/Wycherley
    2. Scannell/O'Byrne/Marshall/Barron/Clarke/Buckley
    3. Ryan/Archer/Knox/Salanoa/French
    4. Beirne/Wycherley/O'Connor/Kelly
    5. Snyman/Kleyn/Ahern
    6. O'Mahony/Jenkins/Kendellen
    7. Cloete/Hodnett/Daly
    8. Coombes/O'Donoghue/O'Sullivan


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    #6759
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,639 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    yerrahbah wrote: »
    How many of the Leinster front row will be in the discussion to tour with the Lions this year?

    Compare that to how many of the Munster front row will be.

    IMO that's a large part of the difference between the sides at the moment

    In my mind it's only tight head prop where we are struggling at the moment.
    Hopefully Ryan in particular can get a bit more powerful and compete with the Leinster rivals.
    If not, they could look at converting Loughman over to tight side prop, he has looked impressive anytime I've seen him.


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    #6760
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Someone must be leaving. There is no way that the IRFU are happy to bring in another NIE to slot into the 23 alongside Snyman surely. That would be 3 SA locks in the squad and if Beirne is moving back to the back row then it's 3 SA locks in the first choice 23. That would be an awful look, especially with guys like Ahern coming through.


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    #6761
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Kleyn isn't a SA lock, no more than Lowe is a NZ winger. For the purposes of IRFU decision making at least...


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    #6762
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,543 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    In my mind it's only tight head prop where we are struggling at the moment.
    Hopefully Ryan in particular can get a bit more powerful and compete with the Leinster rivals.
    If not, they could look at converting Loughman over to tight side prop, he has looked impressive anytime I've seen him.

    Ryan is 32, his physical development is done. They either need to throw Knox into the first team or go shopping, maybe even both.

    Hooker is an area of depth but not strength. Three average options.

    Loose head is fine.


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    #6763
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Kleyn isn't a SA lock, no more than Lowe is a NZ winger. For the purposes of IRFU decision making at least...

    Absolutely true.

    But two would be a surprise.

    I remember back when Leinster weren’t even allowed 1 NIQ lock when Hines was forced to leave (until they were eventually allowed to bring in Thorne for a couple of months at the end of the season)


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    #6764
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Hooker


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    #6765
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Kleyn isn't a SA lock, no more than Lowe is a NZ winger. For the purposes of IRFU decision making at least...

    Sure, but from the point of view of most others, Kleyn is a Saffer and Lowe is a Kiwi. 3 SA locks in the 23 would look awful. And rightly so. That would be as true for 3 Kiwis in Leinsters back 3...


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    #6766
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,543 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Gerry Thornley says the Jenkins story is true, a one year deal.

    Rhys Marshall also gone, James Cronin may follow.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/south-african-lock-jason-jenkins-joins-munster-as-hanrahan-and-sweetnam-depart-1.4522817?mode=amp


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    #6767
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,415 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I actually cannot believe the IRFU have greenlit yet another SA signing for Munster, this is a mad one.


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    #6768
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,061 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Paying for a NIE saffer lock at a time they have decent young Irish prospects.... While being unable to afford to give the likes of cronin a contract is mental and illogical in the extreme.... Unless synman is out of there


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    #6769
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    One year deal, in a non-RWC year, where there's a young prospect behind two internationally capped players, a promising academy player who's going to be promoted to a senior academy this year more than likely as he was year 3 this year, two year two locks in the academy, and then you also have the RWC winning player who may or may not return after his injury. Doesn't make much sense at all, particularly given the alleged tight finances.


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    #6770
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Paying for a NIE saffer lock at a time they have decent young Irish prospects.... While being unable to afford to give the likes of cronin a contract is mental and illogical in the extreme.... Unless synman is out of there

    In isolation, letting Cronin go makes sense when Kilcoyne can hopefully play for 2-3 more seasons and you have Josh Wycherley developing.


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    #6771
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,061 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    In isolation, letting Cronin go makes sense when Kilcoyne can hopefully play for 2-3 more seasons and you have Josh Wycherley developing.

    And if kilcoyne is with Ireland hope many games does that leave munster exposed in?

    I don't necessarily have an issue with cronin leaving but is a capped international.... It's the optics of importing yet another SA lock when there is ample prospects in both munster and across the island.... Especially at a time when the purse strings are supposed to be extremely tight.


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    #6772
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    And if kilcoyne is with Ireland hope many games does that leave munster exposed in?

    I don't necessarily have an issue with cronin leaving but is a capped international.... It's the optics of importing yet another SA lock when there is ample prospects in both munster and across the island.... Especially at a time when the purse strings are supposed to be extremely tight.

    Munster have Loughman and LOC who are serviceable. French was promoted from the academy despite a bad run of injuries and Josh Wycherley showed against Clermont that he's more than capable. We're alright for cover behind Kilcoyne. Munster had tied themselves to LOC, Loughman and Kilcoyne beyond this season and had they retained Cronin they would have had to let Wycherley walk.

    Hopefully Wycherley or French will be in a position to replace Kilcoyne as the starter in a few years. French was supposed to be moved to TH, but I'm not sure what the plan is now as he's been injured for the season.


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    #6773
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    One of Marshall or Barron was likely to go. Barron has age on his side.
    Cronin is unlucky as his contract that is expiring this season. I'd have kept him over Loughman or O'Connor.

    Rumoured or confirmed leaving.
    Cronin, Marshall, Holland, TO'D, Stander, McCarthy, JJ, Sweetnam

    And there are still plenty of contracts to be sorted

    Rumoured incoming
    Osborne and Jenkins.


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    #6774
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I don't know anything about Jenkins and I think the money/NIE spot should have gone to a hooker or TH but let's play Devil's Advocate.

    If it's a one year deal then it feels like a signing where Munster go all out with Snyman and Jenkins for a year and then try to re-sign one of them for 2022/23.

    In the meantime, Ahern's development is a slow burn, similar to Arno Botha being retained while Gavin Coombes was ratcheting up his minutes.

    Where this leaves Fineen Wycherley is another question. Even if Beirne plays in the backrow move often, that still leaves Wycherley behind Snyman, Jenkins and Kleyn. By the middle of next season, he'll be 24. The Jenkins signing will make much more sense if Wycherley is leaving. Perhaps it would be better for Munster and Ireland in the long run if Wycherley were to leave and go somewhere where he can start 20+ games for a year or two. That's not likely at any of the provinces.

    When you look at the overall squad and the depth in the back five of the pack, Munster are losing Holland, TOD (tbc) and CJ. Snyman and Hodnett are coming back from long-term layoffs. Beirne will be away with Ireland. POM and Coombes could be away with Ireland. We don't know what Wycherley's contract situation is. You could argue there is a gap for a signing.


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    #6775
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Munster becoming the northern transvaal! I don't get it.


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    #6776
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Gerry Thornley says the Jenkins story is true, a one year deal.

    Rhys Marshall also gone, James Cronin may follow.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/south-african-lock-jason-jenkins-joins-munster-as-hanrahan-and-sweetnam-depart-1.4522817?mode=amp


    That just makes no sense whatsoever . Unless someone else is leaving I just don't get that at all.

    Wycherley and Ahearn can only see that as a vote of no confidence

    Why do Munster not trust the younger players??

    Ahearn is ~6 months younger than Ryan Baird and Fineen Wycherley is already 23

    Yet Munster and telling those guys that they aren't quite ready to be trusted in the big games and sign a relative journey man instead.

    What does that do to their confidence?


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    #6777
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Why do Munster not trust the younger players??

    The majority of players leaving Munster in the summer will be replaced by younger players.

    You'll need to provide other examples to justify a sweeping statement like this.


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    #6778
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    If Holland is gone and Snyman isn't back who are Munster's locks next season as it stands?


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    #6779
    NewWay82
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭NewWay82


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    The majority of players leaving Munster in the summer will be replaced by younger players.

    You'll need to provide other examples to justify a sweeping statement like this.

    Knox, solomona, Barron, Ahearn, Jack o sullivan, gavin Coombes, fineen wycherly, josh wycherly These players are not trusted to play at an earlier age like they are in leinster and abroad.
    Billy Holland played dead rubber matches this year when Ahearn could have been getting invaluable experience. Same with archer/Ryan for knox/solomona. Josh wycherly hasn't played since the clermont game.
    Leinster trust their players earlier and they benefit way more because of it.
    Personally, I think if we sign another average SA forward it's a disgrace and a waste of money. We've been doing this for years and it hasn't worked but they expect it to work this time??
    I think you'll find that's the description of insanity.
    Open your eyes Thomond, you're living in the past.


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    #6780
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    One year deal, in a non-RWC year, where there's a young prospect behind two internationally capped players, a promising academy player who's going to be promoted to a senior academy this year more than likely as he was year 3 this year, two year two locks in the academy, and then you also have the RWC winning player who may or may not return after his injury. Doesn't make much sense at all, particularly given the alleged tight finances.


    Especially when the Pro16 involves fewer games next season and Europe is rumoured to be 8 pools of 3 too.


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    #6781
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    The majority of players leaving Munster in the summer will be replaced by younger players.

    You'll need to provide other examples to justify a sweeping statement like this.

    JVG over numerous seasons has given the least amount of minutes to academy players. No idea on this season but certainly last season.
    discussed many times on "The Molecast" podcast


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