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Replacment for Cessna 172

145679

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    There are some great bargains out there at the moment. A340's and even A380's.

    always with the solid insight Jonny :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Your not even funny any more jonnybigwallet any chance you'd do a Trump on it and fcuk off into the sunset.:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    No need to be insulting. I'll report you if you continue in this vein


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    [Mod]OK guys. Johnny, no need for the pithy comments. Roundy, you can report things, no in thread moderation please.[/Mod]


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    roadmaster wrote: »
    When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training

    A PC12 wouldn't really do what the Defender does - fly around slowly in tight orbits for a long time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training


    I think when the Tender/order went out that was talked about, but the defender is still going.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    donvito99 wrote: »
    A PC12 wouldn't really do what the Defender does - fly around slowly in tight orbits for a long time.

    Quite right. But with a proper surveillance suite on board would a new Garda plane need to orbit like a Defender? Surely a combination of a PC-12 Spectre and the helos is comprehensive air support?

    To my mind, 4 x PC-12s won't be that busy at the same time anyway, couldn't one of them be tasked to Garda cooperation whenever a fixed wing presence is needed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Quite right. But with a proper surveillance suite on board would a new Garda plane need to orbit like a Defender? Surely a combination of a PC-12 Spectre and the helos is comprehensive air support?

    To my mind, 4 x PC-12s won't be that busy at the same time anyway, couldn't one of them be tasked to Garda cooperation whenever a fixed wing presence is needed?

    Are the 4 planes not out the door as it is. By getting the existing platforms to do the garda work would be no different to EAS and leave the fleet short instead of having extra dedicated aircraft. Imagine if the had kept the dauphins they would have being ideal for EAS. Besides I don't think the guards would want to share there toys but it would still be better to have common state aircraft where possible


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    I think when the Tender/order went out that was talked about, but the defender is still going.

    Is there something about crews not liking to fly the defender?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    https://airwaysmag.com/industry/airbus/french-gov-a340-bargain-sale/

    Just to add something to my previous post which refers to potential purchase of a strategic airlifter as proposed by Leo Varadkar.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    For GAS purposes, it doesn't have to be a manned aircraft, though I guess I can imagine Irish Civil Liberties folks going ape over the idea.

    About as cheap as you can get is what the US has started doing: Mount the sensor suite of a Predator under the wing of a C-172.
    CAP.jpg

    It's actually being done for military simulation purposes, it's cheaper to fly than an actual Predator, but it is listed as an option for civil support operations when there is a request for air coverage with a note that when considering the bill to be paid at the end, this is about at the bottom of the scale. C-172 may be a little -too- small, but it goes to show you can mount good optics on almost anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    https://airwaysmag.com/industry/airbus/french-gov-a340-bargain-sale/

    Just to add something to my previous post which refers to potential purchase of a strategic airlifter as proposed by Leo Varadkar.

    Have a day off ffs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    A number of UK police forces used Defenders, NPAS now uses four Vulcanair (formerly Partenavia) P68s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm assuming you could own and operate quite a few surveillance drones for the same sort money as the garda air unit .. with a remote operator you could have a couple of lads in a control room in baldonnel or somewhere , and fixed wing drones based at airports around the country ,( or even hand launched ) , ( I've no idea how much range a fixed wing has )
    Could be a way of getting a lot more air-cover for similar bucks ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Imagine if the had kept the dauphins they would have being ideal for EAS.




    Dauphin is too small & cumbersome, wouldnt be able to take all the required medical gear either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They are used fairly successful in the northern UK.

    Anyway back on topic I see the pc12s on twitter in donegal today delivering vaccines


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Might be a bunch of Herkys going cheap across the water soon, some decent hours left in ‘em. I wonder if we could pick up one or two...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9305589/Death-Hercules-Entire-fleet-transporter-plane-favoured-SAS-grounded.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    Might be a bunch of Herkys going cheap across the water soon, some decent hours left in ‘em. I wonder if we could pick up one or two...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9305589/Death-Hercules-Entire-fleet-transporter-plane-favoured-SAS-grounded.html

    Brits seem to be ditching them because of the cost of the next MLU, so you'd need to figure in the cost of that.

    Buy 5, one to use and 4 for spares!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    Might be a bunch of Herkys going cheap across the water soon, some decent hours left in ‘em. I wonder if we could pick up one or two...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9305589/Death-Hercules-Entire-fleet-transporter-plane-favoured-SAS-grounded.html

    not a hope!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yisser havin a laugh. The Air Corps couldn't get one decent sized transport aircraft out of the Government in good times, they certainly aren't going to get 5 now.

    You won't see another aircraft acquisition until a) the defence commission has reported and b) some sustainable plan to address retention is enacted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Yisser havin a laugh. The Air Corps couldn't get one decent sized transport aircraft out of the Government in good times, they certainly aren't going to get 5 now.

    You won't see another aircraft acquisition until a) the defence commission has reported and b) some sustainable plan to address retention is enacted.

    agreed, and to be fair what difference have previous white papers made to the acquisition of new gear anyway? they're full of recommendations of what the DF/DOD should do...that rarely come to anything


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Dauphin is too small & cumbersome, wouldnt be able to take all the required medical gear either.

    the 139 is also small and cumbersome and neither have a full head height cabin
    the 4 Dauphins, gifted to a charity AAS organisation supported by the NAS and could have been an ideal air ambulance
    strip out the unnecessary equipment such as the winch, harpoon, floats etc and they'd have been perfect. lots of exers skilled in maintaining them, flying them—all could have been hired and those skills kept.

    the EAS is a brilliant service but a waste of a military asset and it ties up the bulk of the 139 fleet

    the Dauphin was a scapegoat, given away for a song...Chile still seem very happy with our cast offs and the US coastguard are once again upgrading theres- plenty of life left in them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The AC Dauphins had most of the available add-ons and wasn't much different than the Saudi Exocet-capable one. It was too heavy, too small inside,very difficult to climb into the cockpit with survival gear on and in essence, it was the wrong aircraft for the AC. The avionics were a mix and match job and were essentially unique and therefore expensive. I always suspected that Aerospatiale used the AC as a testbed for some of the equipment and fittings and it ate the maintenance budget like nothing else. The people who picked it appeared to have drunk the Aerospatiale Kool-Aid. In certain aspects,it was very good,as it was fast and it gave a solid grounding on more modern avionics and engines and airframes to the techs and the pilots but,over all, the entire Dauphin project was not a success.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    I have seen 280 heading as far as Beirut on several legs. Was wondering how Simon Coveney got to Iran. Would the Learjet have the legs for it or would it be commercial from London?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Probably on a UN aircraft or charter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Dept of Defence probably told Coveney the Learjet does work past grease


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Did they ever re-paint 280?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I think they did...not 100% sure.


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Did they ever re-paint 280?

    As of April 21, no.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CN7x19vHxju/?igshid=ntvnntna3hss


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Did they ever re-paint 280?


    The IAC said themselves it was going to happen but not until their use has calmed down with the Pandemic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Psychlops wrote: »
    The IAC said themselves it was going to happen but not until their use has calmed down with the Pandemic.
    And given its usage rate, that’s not likely anytime soon, I’d agree that it will most likely be when she needs to go back to the factory for something else. If for no other reason that I could already see some of our TDS kicking off about spending x thousand on repainting her anyway...
    Still a shame we couldn’t swing the other one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    A fifth? Was it ever suggested?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    A fifth? Was it ever suggested?


    Back when we picked up the extra one for Covid responses, they offered us another from the same cancelled order for only a couple more million (no more than 5 million from memory), the offer got turned down by the GS of DOD citing "lack of hanger space at Baldonnel" from memory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Interesting.

    That and the lack of crew I imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Interesting.

    That and the lack of crew I imagine.


    Sure, but at the time the 3 were still stuck in the States with no set time for arrival, an extra plane would have been useful, and ideally (though not at all in the DF right now) easier to build up pilots than get a good deal on another aircraft...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They seam to have being a very good purchase and never out of the air weather its trips to carrickfin or lebanon


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Classy bit of kit all right!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't think we'd really need 5 of the type long term. A larger transport is definitely the next priority and that's a well rehearsed story at this stage.

    That said, 280 has been an absolutely invaluable asset these past 14 months, a superb utility aircraft. There's little doubt already that the PC-12 was a worthy winner of the acquisition process and Pilatus have become a great partner to the DF.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    PC-24 replacement for the LJ45?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    No.
    The PC24 is a PC12 with a Jet engine.(or 2)
    It's a niche product for PC12 civvy owners who want to upgrade.

    In fairness whats the LJ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I don't think we'd really need 5 of the type long term. A larger transport is definitely the next priority and that's a well rehearsed story at this stage.

    That said, 280 has been an absolutely invaluable asset these past 14 months, a superb utility aircraft. There's little doubt already that the PC-12 was a worthy winner of the acquisition process and Pilatus have become a great partner to the DF.

    If we were finally to get to the point where the PC12 was deployed on a UN/EU mission for an ISTAR role having another basic airframe at home might have been useful, but that’s still remote.

    But yes the PC12s do seem to have been worth it in the end.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    An aircraft to transport officers not important enough to travel on the G4.

    Any replacement of it should be a military strategic transport, at minimum.

    What G4? Thats gone years!

    An LJ is not a military spec aircraft.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    An A321 with modular interior fitout should be acquired, similar to the RNZAF 757s.

    Ideal to rotate troops to UN postings, carry cargo like foreign aid or emergency medicine or equipment and also to service ministerial air transport needs. Far more versatile than a C-130 and could also be leased for buttons from any one of the airlines that have them in storage at the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    Exactly.
    The Lear was a backup to the G4, which the Air Corps and Government have managed without.
    People got notions in the 70s and 80s, and ministers felt they deserved to be carried about in luxury while they pretended it was in the national interest. Fact is its probably as easy for Michael Martin to get to Brussels, Paris or Washington on a scheduled flight, and not a Bizjet just big enough for the Minister and his entourage, and their shopping.
    If we are going to replace it in its role, then it should be with a larger passenger aircraft that can also carry freight, so maybe we wouldn't have to hire Volga Dnepr next time we need to move emergency aid overseas. Make it so the cabin can be converted as a flying ambulance to it can further assist in international disasters.


    I am not here for the politics, I am just interested in the aircraft! :confused::confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    I'm sorry for your trouble, but the very existence of the Lear in the Air Corps is all about politics.
    If you don't like that you might be in the wrong forum?

    I think it is you that is in the wrong forum. I am just interested in the shiny metal tubes that go up in the air. I have no interest in the who, what, where or why and the polices of governments. I get enough of that elsewhere.

    I asked a question, I got an answer but whatever style of tinfoil hat youre wearing there I will leave you to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    I'm sorry.
    I didn't realise you were worthy of being ignored.
    I'll fix that right away so the adults can continue with the conversation.

    This is not the aviation forum.
    Military=politics by other means.

    Ok sonny, I have no interest in an argument despite your best efforts!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    You asked a question. I answered it. Then you became a dick.

    [MOD]Unsurprisingly, this one gains moderator attention.

    It seems to me the two of you have been talking past each other and have not demonstrated any point of disagreement on the issues.

    Cal-Dreamer, I think you're overreacting by claiming Dohvolle's post was politics. Cynical, sure. (Personally, I like cynicism), but not politics.

    Dohvolle, the rules against personal abuse are pretty clear. And, honestly, I think overreacting a bit here as well.[/Mod]


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The trouble with using airliners is that they need dedicated loading equipment such as pallet lifters,tugs, dedicated cargo bins or cargo pallets and mobile conveyors. A C-130 doesnt. When you see how much of those heavy equipments that expeditionary armies like the French have to position into places like Chad and Mali,before the first airliner ever lands, you get to understand why air arms like ramp-equipped aircraft,even small, basic ones like the CN 235/295. When you are dealing with Africa,you need to have the best kit on hand and a warmed over 321 is not the best. So,if you venture into Africa,you need to have a protected airport, heavy kit readily available,men on hand to protect it and the means to bug out if it all turns to ****. None of that is guaranteed and even the French have their off days and they've been there since God was a boy......apart from that,it's nice to see the PC-12 doing well. It would be really nice if it had two engines,a loadmaster and a big belly to hold stuff.;-)


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