Female teachers having affairs with students

Kimia · 07-01-2011 4:07pm #1

I know it's quite a controversial topic but I wonder what the general consensus is. In some cases where the teacher is very early 20's and the student is 17 or 18 I don't think morally there really is any problem, although i'm aware that the teacher has a duty of care.

Also there have also been some reports of the students themselves seducing the teachers, going out of their way to court and entice them into a relationship. I know what I was like as a teenage girl and if there was a cute male teacher in his early 20's he would have been teased by us (ribald teenage minxes so we were!), and in some cases I definitely think some of my fellow classmates would have gone for it had the opportunity arisen.

Several women have been sent to jail for years, do you think they deserved it? Do you think it's the same as child abuse when the 'child' involved is almost an adult - maybe 16/17/18?

smileysurfer · 07-01-2011 4:16pm

Why do you say ''Female Teachers''?? Male teachers can just as easily do the same thing and its just as disgusting

metrovelvet · 07-01-2011 4:16pm

Yes. You are abusing your authority as a teacher.

Tea_Bag · 07-01-2011 4:20pm

its easy to say its wrong now, and i do, but back then... if i could i would.

Plazaman · 07-01-2011 4:24pm

Tea_Bag wrote: »

its easy to say its wrong now, and i do, but back then... if i could i would.

We didn't appreciate it when we were younger getting spanked by middle aged women. If we want it now we have to pay for it. Who'da thunk it.

In relation to the OP's post, teachers and students, a bad relationship mix.

Kimia · 07-01-2011 4:25pm

smileysurfer wrote: »

Why do you say ''Female Teachers''?? Male teachers can just as easily do the same thing and its just as disgusting

I know there are male teachers too, I just read an article in the DM about female teachers, and some people think that it's harder to understand when it's an older female teacher, that's all.

Morgase · 07-01-2011 4:26pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes. You are abusing your authority as a teacher.

Absolutely. I don't think it matters whether it's male teacher / female student or female teacher / male student, or any combination. It's still an abuse of power; the gender is irrelevant.

witnessmenow · 07-01-2011 4:27pm

if it satisfies the half your age add 7 rule im not against it.

I honestly believe that the above should be the law if there is a party under 18 involved

Emme · 07-01-2011 4:27pm

Teacher/student relationships are unprofessional and irresponsible on the part of the older party who is abusing his or her authority.

Kimia · 07-01-2011 4:28pm

Morgase wrote: »

Absolutely. I don't think it matters whether it's male teacher / female student or female teacher / male student, or any combination. It's still an abuse of power; the gender is irrelevant.

What about when the relationship was instigated by the student? Do you think there's any responsibility on them? Reason I'm asking is because as I said in the OP I would have been a right madam when I was a teenager and would have delighted in an older (not too much older mind!) male teacher fancying me. Maybe not a fully fledged relationship but it was very intriguing prospect to me and to some of my friends.

neuro-praxis · 07-01-2011 4:36pm

Kimia wrote: »

In some cases where the teacher is very early 20's and the student is 17 or 18 I don't think morally there really is any problem, although i'm aware that the teacher has a duty of care.

You've contradicted yourself there in your opening line. How can it be ok if a teacher has a duty of care?

Someone in their twenties having a consensual relationship with someone who is 17/18 = fine

A teacher having a relationship with a student = not fine

One is in a position of power: the other is not.

Kimia · 07-01-2011 4:40pm

neuro-praxis wrote: »

You've contradicted yourself there in your opening line. How can it be ok if a teacher has a duty of care?

Someone in their twenties having a consensual relationship with someone who is 17/18 = fine

A teacher having a relationship with a student = not fine

One is in a position of power: the other is not.

I see what you mean. I don't mean to contradict myself but I don't have a black and white view of it I suppose. That is to say, I don't believe it's right for a teacher to have a relationship with a student, but I can see how it happens when the teacher and student are so near in age.

Konata · 07-01-2011 4:45pm

I understand your point about there being only a minimal age difference and yes, sure many 16-18 year olds have been involved with people in their early 20s but a teacher? IMO, it's NOT morally right.

Teachers play an extremely important role in society - that of educating children and teenagers. Their role is to be dependable, to be authoritative, to spread their academic and worldly knowledge and to help children & teens grow into responsible and educated adults.

Even when a teenager is 18 years old, they are still naive and impressionable. It's a tough age because they feel they know everything but in reality, their world is small and they have much to learn. A teacher - student affair is damaging at this age. It's the blurring of rules, the confusion of responsibilities and can not end well.

Both parties should have enough cop on not to engage in an affair but the teacher especially is massively at fault. I think it's completely irresponsible and selfish of a teacher to have a sexual or emotional relationship with a student. It's just not right - it has the potential to confuse an impressionable teenager, to affect their studies and hence career prospectives, to damage them emotionally and face them with something they're not yet mature enough to deal with.

If their "love" is "true" or whatever, because yes, it is possible for it to be true love, a teacher will care enough about their love interest (the student) to leave them be for a few years, at least until they are finished school and no longer under their care. That would be the responsible way, I have no respect for teachers who allow themselves to get involved with students whilst they are still school bound.

07-01-2011 5:01pm

It should be against school/college policy and it should be instant dismissal to get involved with one of your students, but it shouldn't be illegal. Is it illegal for a boss to sleep with an employee?

Ksusha26 · 07-01-2011 5:02pm

In my hometown university it was common knowledge that male professors were sleeping with female students in order for the students to get higher grades. The professors were usually in their 50s while the students would be 19-21 age group. It's wrong and an abuse of authority but it still happened.

CDfm · 07-01-2011 5:15pm

Its a bit like doctor or nurse & patient or social worker & client and there is an ethical boundary there.

Its a bit creepy - thats said as a Dad of a 20 y/o son who did his leaving 2 years ago.

Why on earth would anyone want to sleep with a child.

The Corinthian · 07-01-2011 5:20pm

Kimia wrote: »

Several women have been sent to jail for years, do you think they deserved it? Do you think it's the same as child abuse when the 'child' involved is almost an adult - maybe 16/17/18?

I'm not sure many women have been sent to jail for this. Certainly none in Ireland (especially given that women cannot even legally commit statuary rape) and in the US there have been a relatively small number of cases, most resulting in suspended or short custodial sentences: http://www.lawfirms.com/female-teacher-sex-crime-offenders-and-scandals.html

The most notorious of these was that of Debra Lafave and became the subject of a parody by Southpark.

I do remember as a freshman in college, out with friends on Leeson street, one of them bumped into (and hooked up with) his former primary school teacher. Now at the time she was his teacher she would have been quite young (about 19) as she was only a student teacher and he was in 6th class (12-years old). Not sure if this is strictly relevant though.

While still in primary or secondary school, however, it is ultimately still an adult having sexual relations with a minor (when under 16 years of age) and that is wrong regardless of gender.

Even if the student is of legal age (17), I'd have to agree with neuro-praxis here, that it is an abuse of the position of authority. As such I'd consider university professors and lecturers similarly guilty when they do the same. However, that is more an ethical than a legal point.

Morgase · 07-01-2011 5:22pm

Kimia wrote: »

What about when the relationship was instigated by the student? Do you think there's any responsibility on them? Reason I'm asking is because as I said in the OP I would have been a right madam when I was a teenager and would have delighted in an older (not too much older mind!) male teacher fancying me. Maybe not a fully fledged relationship but it was very intriguing prospect to me and to some of my friends.

I think the teacher needs to put his / her foot down and not let anything happen.

It's one thing for a 22 year old and a 17 year old who meet while socialising to get together, but when one is in a position of authority then that person has to say "no, not going to happen".

07-01-2011 5:28pm

Kimia wrote: »

What about when the relationship was instigated by the student? Do you think there's any responsibility on them? Reason I'm asking is because as I said in the OP I would have been a right madam when I was a teenager and would have delighted in an older (not too much older mind!) male teacher fancying me. Maybe not a fully fledged relationship but it was very intriguing prospect to me and to some of my friends.

What about a 14 year-old trying to instigate a relationship with an adult? It is totally the adult's responsibility to prevent it going further

Kimia · 07-01-2011 5:29pm

To clarify, I mean students over the age of consent. So definitely not children and I would consider a 14 year old still a child.

07-01-2011 5:34pm

Kimia wrote: »

To clarify, I mean students over the age of consent. So definitely not children and I would consider a 14 year old still a child.

I know, I was using it as a comparison. It is up to the "responsible" person in the relationship to stop it.

As I said, it shouldn't be illegal, but it should be against school policy. If she thinks it's worth her job, go nuts. Otherwise she can wait a few years

metrovelvet · 07-01-2011 5:36pm

Kimia wrote: »

To clarify, I mean students over the age of consent. So definitely not children and I would consider a 14 year old still a child.

While not illegal it is generally frowned upon even within universities and many have policies which include that there cannot be a relationship while a student is enrolled in the class. I think this makes a lot of sense for a number of reasons.

I was quite stunned and dumbfounded when I discovered that a friend of mine met with one of his students [masters level] in a pub whom he was teaching and that he fancied here and was considering asking her out. Now I can only imagine how that student must have felt sitting there wondering how this would affect her studies or her assessment. Bad news altogether I think.

I also have another third level teacher who admitted to under grading a student to over compensate for his crush.

And both of those are complicated enough without even a relationship in motion. Its still all in the imagination at that point. So no no no.

LittleBook · 07-01-2011 5:44pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

in the US there have been a relatively small number of cases, most resulting in suspended or short custodial sentences: http://www.lawfirms.com/female-teacher-sex-crime-offenders-and-scandals.html

Sweet jebus, some of that's horrific!

a (37) year old mother, who attempted to marry a fifteen-year-old male, who happened to be a friend of her son, under a bizarre legal loophole under Georgia law.

an interim teacher at McClatchy High School in Sacramento, California when police officers found her and a sixteen (16) year old male student behind the school in a parked car. During the February of 2009 arrest, responding officers noted steamed up windows, the car’s occupants moving rhythmically, and an infant child strapped in a safety seat inside the vehicle.

a behavioral counselor ... who was 31 years old at the time of her arrest, was charged with having sex with an autistic, fifteen (15) year old boy

a married, elementary school teacher ... began a relationship with a sixth grade student [where students are usually 11 – 12 years old] she had previously taught in second grade.

a twenty-nine (29) year old teacher charged in relation to alleged sexual encounters with a seventeen (17) year old male student during an overnight school camping trip in October of 2006. Investigators stated McCandless plied the young man with alcohol and engaged in sexual activity with the boy mere feet away from other students.

a twenty-three (23) year old teacher ... arrested for having illegal sexual relations with a thirteen (13) year old male student.

a teacher ... engaging in an affair with a sixth-grade male student and fleeing with the child to Mexico in October of 2007. According to police, Peterson engaged in a sexual relationship with Fernando Rodriguez beginning when the boy was twelve (12) years old

a thirty-one (31) year old teacher before information surfaced involving her with the molestation of ten (10) year old boy, who was a former student of Rice’s at McKinley Elementary in 2007. The pair was apprehended together after Rice and the child decided to run away together and an Amber Alert was issued for the child

a forty-six (46) year old teacher specializing in special education at Magnolia High School in Magnolia, Arkansas and the wife of the school’s vice principal. However, in 2008, Sanders was arrested for essentially arranging a multi-partner sexual encounter at a local motel via Facebook involving two (2) girls aged twelve and thirteen, underage boys, and a twenty-two (22) year old man. Sanders also allegedly involved her own daughter in motel activities, including buying the teen alcohol and driving a car around while minors engaged I sexual activity in the back seat.

a twenty- eight (28) year old teacher at Highlands Senior High School in Natrona Heights, Pennsylvania before she was arrested for sexual conduct involving students and other minors. According to police, a rented hotel room contained Swogger, several teens aged fourteen (14) to fifteen (15), and numerous other illicit items, including alcohol, cannabis, and an open condom wrapper. Later revelations in the case showed that Swogger had regularly engaged in sexual acts with young men as young as fourteen (14). These allegations included photos leaked online showing Swogger being groped by six underage boys while nude. After the final tally was made, Swogger faced a total of 39 charges relating to her illicit sexual behavior, including providing crack cocaine to some of her victims.

twenty-seven (27) years old and employed at Centertown Elementary School in McMinnville, Tennessee as a coach and teacher when she was arrested in connection to sexual relations with a student aged thirteen years old. Turner was arrested in February of 2005 under charges that she had a sexual relationship with a thirteen (13) year old student.

The Corinthian wrote: »

The most notorious of these was that of Debra Lafave and became the subject of a parody by Southpark.

That episode nailed (if you'll pardon the pun) the real issue with female teacher/male student sexual relationships ... too many people, often including the students, don't see the problem (unless the teacher is ugly, otherwise it's "nice").

But reading the above shows just how sick some of these women are. :eek:

Kimia wrote: »

To clarify, I mean students over the age of consent. So definitely not children and I would consider a 14 year old still a child.

Sorry, took some time putting my post together so it went up before I read this.

The Corinthian · 07-01-2011 5:50pm

Kimia wrote: »

To clarify, I mean students over the age of consent. So definitely not children and I would consider a 14 year old still a child.

Ahh, OK. What neuro-praxis said then.

The Corinthian · 07-01-2011 6:31pm

LittleBook wrote: »

But reading the above shows just how sick some of these women are. :eek:

I agree, when you read what they did, such as the case of Pamela Rogers Turner, but then when you see what she looks like, you really have to ask your self; "WTF???!!!"

metrovelvet · 07-01-2011 6:42pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

I agree, when you read what they did, such as the case of Pamela Rogers Turner, but then when you see what she looks like, you really have to ask your self; "WTF???!!!"

What do her looks have to do with it?

07-01-2011 8:03pm

Can't imagine anyone obsessing over the guy's looks if the roles were reversed

CDfm · 07-01-2011 10:33pm

In the USA male victims of child rape are required to pay child support in respect of any child born as a result of the relationship.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/geolr36&div=17&id=&page=

07-01-2011 10:34pm

CDfm wrote: »

In the USA male victims of child rape are required to pay child support in respect of any child born as a result of the relationship.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/geolr36&div=17&id=&page=

That's outrageous :eek:

metrovelvet · 07-01-2011 10:38pm

CDfm wrote: »

In the USA male victims of child rape are required to pay child support in respect of any child born as a result of the relationship.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/geolr36&div=17&id=&page=

They see child support as the child's entitlement not the mothers, so they dont take it out on the child.

However, as minors I cant see how they can pay child support. Are their parents forced to cough up?

DublinWriter · 07-01-2011 10:39pm

Kimia wrote: »

Several women have been sent to jail for years, do you think they deserved it? Do you think it's the same as child abuse when the 'child' involved is almost an adult - maybe 16/17/18?

Age of consent in 17 in this country.

That aside, it's a massive breach of professional ethics for that sort of thing to happen.

CDfm · 07-01-2011 11:09pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

They see child support as the child's entitlement not the mothers, so they dont take it out on the child.

However, as minors I cant see how they can pay child support. Are their parents forced to cough up?

I don't know but presumably if a woman abuses a child and subsequently is convicted their source of employment income is gone.

People like this are not really going to care about the victim.

Its incredulous that the US courts allow them to claim child support as it gives them control over their victim.

It also discourages victims coming forward and testifying.

metrovelvet · 07-01-2011 11:19pm

CDfm wrote: »

I don't know but presumably if a woman abuses a child and subsequently is convicted their source of employment income is gone.

People like this are not really going to care about the victim.

Its incredulous that the US courts allow them to claim child support as it gives them control over their victim.

It also discourages victims coming forward and testifying.

Ok.

It was a statuatory rape charge that you cited. That means anyone over 18 with anyone under 18.

Did you read the limited case notes available? The 'child' said the sex was mutually enjoyable. The court found he 'was not an innocent victim."

Statutory rape is judged differently, otherwise do you know how many seniors in my high school would have been charged for going out with minors?

If the state felt it was a rape/abuse case she would have been charged and imprisoned.

CDfm · 08-01-2011 12:01am

I think that in this situation the teacher was in an illegal relationship and the child was not capable of giving consent. Anyway, I would rather not speculate.

I could give a fifteen year old a few cans of cider or bottles of Wicked and they may enjoy them and feel all grown up but it would not be right.

I really dont want to get into specifics here but the concept of that type of relationship ,whatever gender the participants are, is wrong in my mind.

metrovelvet · 08-01-2011 12:05am

CDfm wrote: »

I think that in this situation the teacher was in an illegal relationship and the child was not capable of giving consent. Anyway, I would rather not speculate.

I could give a fifteen year old a few cans of cider or bottles of Wicked and they may enjoy them and feel all grown up but it would not be right.

I really dont want to get into specifics here but the concept of that type of relationship ,whatever gender the participants are, is wrong in my mind.

Where does it say she was a teacher?

I agree with you that it is wrong. But the state and the law would not see fit to punish the child by depriving it of child support which it is entitled to like any other child, regardless of the context in which s/he was conceived.

However,as a minor, I dont see how they can hold him accountable but then again a lot of minors are having kids and tbh I dont know if they have to pay child support or if their parents do.

Ickle Magoo · 08-01-2011 12:08am

Depriving the child?

Would you have rapists getting joint custody of the kids conceived by their crimes? Where do you draw the line?

The_Kew_Tour · 08-01-2011 12:11am

smileysurfer wrote: »

Why do you say ''Female Teachers''?? Male teachers can just as easily do the same thing and its just as disgusting

Know lad down in Kerry and he well known for it.

CDfm · 08-01-2011 12:17am

@metro I stumbled on the thread by accident and added the bit of legal or other real consequences for the "victim" or "junior partner".

I have an awful flu and have to concentrate on getting minded

metrovelvet · 08-01-2011 12:25am

CDfm wrote: »

@metro I stumbled on the thread by accident and added the bit of legal or other real consequences for the "victim" or "junior partner".

I have an awful flu and have to concentrate on getting minded

I hope you feel better.

metrovelvet · 08-01-2011 12:31am

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Depriving the child? Would you have rapists getting joint custody of the kids conceived by their crimes? Where do you draw the line?

In the US the law would see it that way, unless he was a child rapist [obviously that is different].

You are a dad. You have rights. That's it. If you are a convicted rapist, once you serve your sentence, you can resume all your rights as a free citizen. The court will not deprive the child of a relationship with its father, even if it means supervised access.

I am editing this to add - that there is no uniformity on this. For example, if a woman for religious or ethical reaasons does not want to have an abortion, and the father has been convicted and proven guilty, a judge MIGHT remove his rights so that she does not need to seek his consent if she is giving the child up for adoption.

If you are a woman who conceived a child by a rapist, your only choice, assuming you keep the child, is to never tell him he is a father, no name on the birthcert and forego child support.

That is how American law sees it. The child's right.

You know what American lawyers tell mothers who think about not suing for child support? "You dont have the right to steal from your children."

Dudess · 08-01-2011 1:38am

If it's a genuinely loving relationship, well, that's just two people being human. But it should certainly be avoided to whatever extent possible because it's plain and simply an abuse of the teacher's position.

witnessmenow wrote: »

if it satisfies the half your age add 7 rule im not against it.

What? You honestly believe that "rule"?

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm not sure many women have been sent to jail for this. Certainly none in Ireland (especially given that women cannot even legally commit statuary rape) and in the US there have been a relatively small number of cases, most resulting in suspended or short custodial sentences: http://www.lawfirms.com/female-teacher-sex-crime-offenders-and-scandals.html

The most notorious of these was that of Debra Lafave and became the subject of a parody by Southpark.

A female teacher seducing a young boy is obscene, but the idiotic backslapping from some males re what a "legend" he is (see most recent AH thread on same) countered by "****ing pervert" from same in relation to the inverse, hardly helps that particular cause.

The Corinthian · 08-01-2011 1:57am

metrovelvet wrote: »

What do her looks have to do with it?

It brings home the attitude that LittleBook highlighted earlier whereby many don't see the problem with female abuse of minors. Instinctively seeing her, I go "wow, fancy a bit of that" and emotively it lessens the abhorrence to the actual crime for a moment.

I think, as a man, I can now better understand why this double standard occurs and how ultimately it requires rational objectivity to avoid, because ultimately it is an appalling crime regardless of whom commits it.

SarahBeep! · 08-01-2011 3:37am

DublinWriter wrote: »

Age of consent in 17 in this country

I think that's ridiculous. If someone wants to do something, they'll do it regardless.

minidazzler · 08-01-2011 5:15am

Emme wrote: »

Teacher/student relationships are unprofessional and irresponsible on the part of the older party who is abusing his or her authority.

I agree about it being unprofessional, probably usually even irresponsible, but morally, looking at general ages of a 16/17/18 year old with a teacher of 22/23/24, I fail to see a problem in morals. It's only abusing their authority if they use their authority to their advantage in sexual conduct IMO. Simply being a teacher does not mean a student has to do it, and if sex education is done correctly, students will know this by the time they are of age.

However, someone younger than 15, I would see a moral dilemma, but that's more because it's where I see the line rather than where the rest of the world see it.

hondasam · 08-01-2011 10:27am

It would be unethical for a start and would definitely compromise the teacher/student relationship. The teacher is the adult and should have more life experience to know how young teenage minds work.

If a student is involved with a teacher then that teacher cannot be impartial and this will lead to even bigger issues.

My own personal opinion is any teacher who gets involved with a student in secondary school should be dismissed.

CDfm · 08-01-2011 11:07am

If there is an illicit romantic relationship -it would be fairly imposible for a teacher to do their job properly and impartially. In the same way that it would be if someone had an intimate relationship with their boss at work.

Anyway, there are differences is the power dynamic in the relationship and I can see how it could be less consensual then a teacher might assume or try to convince themselves. And , like it or not, the potential for messiness on a break-up is huge in the same way intimate work relationships are.

In my mind , the words integrity and mistress keep popping up.

metrovelvet · 08-01-2011 11:17am

CDfm wrote: »

If there is an illicit romantic relationship -it would be fairly imposible for a teacher to do their job properly and impartially. In the same way that it would be if someone had an intimate relationship with their boss at work.

Anyway, there are differences is the power dynamic in the relationship and I can see how it could be less consensual then a teacher might assume or try to convince themselves. And , like it or not, the potential for messiness on a break-up is huge in the same way intimate work relationships are.

In my mind , the words integrity and mistress keep popping up.

ALso because the adult [as opposed to a minor] is a teacher and in a position of authority it adds to a case of implicit coercion or adds more doubt to the consent of the minor in his or her capacity to give consent or deny consent. The question of consent would be a lot fuzzier in a case where there was no overt difference in authority, such as the 18 year old seniors in my high school who dated 13 and 14 year old freshman girls.

How many men have I heard say 'what 14 year old boy wouldnt love that?"

CDfm · 08-01-2011 1:24pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

How many men have I heard say 'what 14 year old boy wouldnt love that?"

How many ?

14 year old boys usually like 14 year old girls.

daithi2011 · 08-01-2011 1:39pm

Ksusha26 wrote: »

In my hometown university it was common knowledge that male professors were sleeping with female students in order for the students to get higher grades. The professors were usually in their 50s while the students would be 19-21 age group. It's wrong and an abuse of authority but it still happened.

Ive heard this one about every teacher, lecturer i've ever had. I put it down to idle made up gossip. One girl I know started spreading those rumors about a lecturer and her best friend told me that she was in bits one night and laid it all out to her in tears. The real story was that when she made advances to the lecturer but was rejected. Spread the stories for revenge.

The Corinthian · 08-01-2011 1:42pm

CDfm wrote: »

14 year old boys usually like 14 year old girls.

Legally they're safer going for 40 year old women - 14 year old boys can be charged with statutory rape of a 14 year old girl, once they become adults. Ironically, while the 40 year old woman can be charged with molestation of a minor, she cannot similarly be charged with statutory rape of the 14 year old boy.

You gotta love Irish law.

CDfm · 08-01-2011 1:48pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You gotta love Irish law.

All things being equal does not always work as a 14 year old boy cannot get pregnant apart from that the law on women and minors is a bit daft .

Female teachers having affairs with students

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