Woman rakes up 648 convictions

16-07-2019 1:30pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would be cheaper in the individual case to leave her on the street but is very costly to society as it sets the precedent thst the state won't intervene. It would take a lot of 10 euro bottles of wine to equal the cost of the police, trial, prison induction procedures and actual imprisonment. Up to 1,850 euro week.

If this kind of huge money is going to be spent, it should at least offer significantly reduced likelihood of recidivism through rehabilitation of whatever kind is most appropriate.

Exactly.

I don't have much hope that a person of this age, with this record, is going to ever turn her life around. If she has an addiction to drugs, legal or illicit, she's already approaching her life expectancy.

But there's no use in whining about the costs of our reaction, whilst simultaneously endorsing the same failed policy again and again.

Either we need to ignore this criminality, or we need to change tack. Because what we're doing now is only costing more money and resolving nothing.

Frankly, we're prolonging her misery and burning public money.

Graces7 · 16-07-2019 1:37pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

I don't enjoy punishment, not sure where you're getting that from, but if it suits your narrative then you can keep suggesting it. So when would you suggest intervening? 4th, 10th or 20th offence? And who exactly will intervene and what will they do? As far as I can see now in Ireland we have no punishment and no intervention which as I pointed out earlier means a lawless society.

Maybe find some stats as some criminals do not warrant calling this a lawless society. Define also no punishment" in a case like this? People are sent to jail daily.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 1:45pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Exactly.

I don't have much hope that a person of this age, with this record, is going to ever turn her life around. If she has an addiction to drugs, legal or illicit, she's already approaching her life expectancy.

But there's no use in whining about the costs of our reaction, whilst simultaneously endorsing the same failed policy again and again.

Either we need to ignore this criminality, or we need to change tack. Because what we're doing now is only costing more money and resolving nothing.

Frankly, we're prolonging her misery and burning public money.

That's a really interesting point. The long term focus would be on communities so the long term benefits would be realised when people are born into communities without the major problems that lead to increased crime rates. But at the same time you have to deal with the current people who have little prospects of turning their lives around like the woman in the story. So you would need to pay for the current warehousing approach alongside investing in the future preventative approach. It would be expensive.

I suppose it's a matter of how important you think crime is to a society. If you care about victims and society in general, they you're more likely to endorse the investment in the future. If you mostly care about punishment, then you're likely to ignore the future and focus purely on longer sentences and more of the current approach.

Boggles · 16-07-2019 1:45pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

As far as I can see now in Ireland we have no punishment and no intervention which as I pointed out earlier means a lawless society.

Hal3000 · 16-07-2019 2:09pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's the fact that you keep forgetting my answer to this question that leads me to think you have no interest in information about anything except the punishment.

So I'll answer your question (as I do in all the threads where you ask a variation of this question). I would suggest a multi pronged approach which deals with the causes of crime as well as the consequences of crime. A research led approach focused on prevention, then a justice system which focuses on punishment, rehabilitation, restorative justice and public safety.

I actually care about victims. The fewer victims that better. And those people who are victimised should have a system which prioritises restorative justice but first and foremost, it should prioritise preventing crime by addressing the causative factors which lead to crime.

So, What do you suggest?

Good solution for a progressive modern country, but unfortunately not Ireland. Cmon, we can't even deliver Healthcare properly. Therefore until we have leadership that can deliver these programs my opinion is that law and order must take precidence and protect citizens from repeat offenders.

Hal3000 · 16-07-2019 2:10pm

Boggles wrote: »

Glad you could contribute to the debate.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 2:47pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

Good solution for a progressive modern country, but unfortunately not Ireland. Cmon, we can't even deliver Healthcare properly. Therefore until we have leadership that can deliver these programs my opinion is that law and order must take precidence and protect citizens from repeat offenders.

Though I've never really understood it, I recognise this inferiority complex about what Irish people are capable of. I often think that if people of another nationality expressed such lowly opinions of Irish people's capabilities, we would rebel by creating a utopia just to spite them.

Hal3000 · 16-07-2019 2:52pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Though I've never really understood it, I recognise this inferiority complex about what Irish people are capable of. I often think that if people of another nationality expressed such lowly opinions of Irish people's capabilities, we would rebel by creating a utopia just to spite them.

Sorry you've taken me up wrong again. Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people. Unfortunately the people who run this country are not. If real Irish people, and I don't mean race or ethnicity, I mean Irish people who are voted in on merit and for the work they have done to better this country not placed by cronyism, if they were in Government we would have far less issues than we have today.

Nermal · 16-07-2019 2:55pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It should prioritise preventing crime by addressing the causative factors which lead to crime.

The main causative factor leading to crime is habitual criminals not being in prison. Lock them up and keep them there, and crime will fall.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 6:50pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think she has no interest or capacity in/to single-handedly turning her life around, and to that extent she is taking the piss.

The question for us is whether we continue to throw money at the problem, knowing we won't fix it? Definition of insanity, etc.

What do you want to do, throw her in prison for 10 years at a cost of over a million euro, prolong her life and expect her to be healthy and wise upon release? Its probably cheaper to keep her out in society, in the long run, and allow the inevitable to happen (without wanting to be too macabre).

If we want to address problems like this, we need to radically change our approach to failed methods.

I meant the poster not the criminal.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 6:51pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

LOL. You think arguing for criminal hospitals and rehabilitation is taking the piss?

Rehabilitation for someone with 600 convictions. Do you realise how silly that sounds?

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 7:07pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Rehabilitation for someone with 600 convictions. Do you realise how silly that sounds?

I'm proposing rehabilitation early doors. The notion that someone could get to 600 offences without a proper and serious attempt at addressing the issues as to why they are such a prolific recidivist, sounds silly to me.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 7:08pm

Nermal wrote: »

The main causative factor leading to crime is habitual criminals not being in prison. Lock them up and keep them there, and crime will fall.

I really wish i were that naive. Life would be so much easier if i believed things were so simple.

hatrickpatrick · 16-07-2019 7:09pm

People like this should be given life sentences by virtue of being career criminals, with the possibility of parole tied directly to demonstrated reformation and commitment to becoming a decent person while behind bars.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 7:11pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm proposing rehabilitation early doors. The notion that someone could get to 600 offences without a proper and serious attempt at addressing the issues as to why they are such a prolific recidivist, sounds silly to me.

So no serious attempts have been made to date for this lady? Or have they repeatedly failed?

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 7:15pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

Sorry you've taken me up wrong again. Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people. Unfortunately the people who run this country are not. If real Irish people, and I don't mean race or ethnicity, I mean Irish people who are voted in on merit and for the work they have done to better this country not placed by cronyism, if they were in Government we would have far less issues than we have today.

LOL. So "Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people" except when they vote, they vote for inept politicians. The solution sounds simple enough for me, start voting for the less inept politicians. The process of "evolution by voting for competency", could begin any time. Michael Lowry is a great example of a person without a moral compass, but he has the safest seat in the country.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 7:16pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

So no serious attempts have been made to date for this lady? Or have they repeatedly failed?

I don't have the details. Do you?

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 7:40pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't have the details. Do you?

No, but of course we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 7:59pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

No, but of course we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

You can give her the benefit of the doubt if you like but I'm working from the fact that the Irish criminal justice system doesn't focus on rehabilitation.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 8:17pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can give her the benefit of the doubt if you like but I'm working from the fact that the Irish criminal justice system doesn't focus on rehabilitation.

So how did she get off ‘the drugs’? Heroin and cocaine. Cold turkey was it? No support from the state there I guess. Let’s see how she gets on with her ‘last chance’, that will give us an idea of how she would have engaged with any rehabilitation program.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 8:43pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

So how did she get off ‘the drugs’? Heroin and cocaine. Cold turkey was it? No support from the state there I guess. Let’s see how she gets on with her ‘last chance’, that will give us an idea of how she would have engaged with any rehabilitation program.

If she got off drugs I assume she did it with funding from either the state, a charity or she funded it herself. So let's assume it's one of the first two. That's a great Intervention and worth state/charity investment, , wouldn't you say?

And if drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes then.it would have been sufficient. But like I said, the Irish criminal justice system doesn't prioritise rehabilitation. I'd suggest more funding and more focus on rehabilitation as one part of the approach to crime.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 9:13pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If she got off drugs I assume she did it with funding from either the state, a charity or she funded it herself. So let's assume it's one of the first two. That's a great Intervention and worth state/charity investment, , wouldn't you say?

And if drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes then.it would have been sufficient. But like I said, the Irish criminal justice system doesn't prioritise rehabilitation. I'd suggest more funding and more focus on rehabilitation as one part of the approach to crime.

She turned to alcohol, she is now an alcoholic.

16-07-2019 9:15pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

My heart bleeds....

No wonder they can do what they want when there are those like you ...

The thing is, we are all free to do what we want.... then we face the consequences.

What's your suggestion, beheading, cut off her hands perhaps... Maybe a good old fashioned stoning....

While "your Heart Bleeds" do you have a reasonable solution to societal problems like this?

If not I'd suggest you keep your great idea's and nuggets of useless wisdom to yourself.

Perhaps her life of addiction, theft, recidivism, and jailing is absolutely fantastic indeed and the rest of us just don't realise what we are missing out on.

God, I love the "Hang em High" brigade.................

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 9:26pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

She turned to alcohol, she is now an alcoholic.

Quite common i think. What's your point?

Do at least try to address the questions And points I raised in the last post.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 9:33pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Quite common i think. What's your point?

Do at least try to address the questions And points I raised in the last post.

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-07-2019 9:43pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

Oh I see. You missed the explicit question so I'll Repeat it: would you prefer to attempt to rehabilitate a heroine and cocaine addict or would you prefer to send them back whenever their sentence is Complete, as a drug addict?

The other point was that that if the drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes, then that's the only thing you need to address. But neither you nor I know anything about her and the point was generalisable and to criminals with out 600 convictions.

Your response that she's now an alcoholic was bizarre because its covered by the point in the second paragraph you quoted. But in case I missed it, did you have a point?

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 9:47pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

So you think that allowing a maladjusted individual to continually commit crime is a more sensible approach than medical intervention?

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 9:50pm

Odhinn wrote: »

So you think that allowing a maladjusted individual to continually commit crime is a more sensible approach than medical intervention?

Lock her up till she dies, problem solved.

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 9:51pm

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Lock her up till she dies, problem solved.

Which would probably cost more than her rehabilitation.

Sonny noggs · 16-07-2019 9:52pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Which would probably cost more than her rehabilitation.

No, it wouldn’t, if you factored in the total cost to her victims, court appearances, free legal aid it would be the bargain of the century.

givyjoe · 16-07-2019 9:56pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Which would probably cost more than her rehabilitation.

Rehab?! Do you have any where you can point to showing the rehab of a 600 time plus re-offender?! This woman should quite clearly not be walking the streets, the fact that she is free to pilfer further from people trying to earn a living, is sickening.

Little to no consequences for committing crimes. = Little to no deterrent. Do you honestly believe that stupidly lenient sentences for repeat offenders (or any offender) doesnt result in greater levels of criminality? I.e. thief's like this one have little or nothing to fear if caught.

Hal3000 · 16-07-2019 10:35pm

givyjoe wrote: »

Rehab?! Do you have any where you can point to showing the rehab of a 600 time plus re-offender?! This woman should quite clearly not be walking the streets, the fact that she is free to pilfer further from people trying to earn a living, is sickening.

Little to no consequences for committing crimes. = Little to no deterrent. Do you honestly believe that stupidly lenient sentences for repeat offenders (or any offender) doesnt result in greater levels of criminality? I.e. thief's like this one have little or nothing to fear if caught.

You're wasting your time. These posters keep claming that locking repeat offenders up doesn't work. I have established that they're either trolls or judges.

16-07-2019 10:46pm

givyjoe wrote: »

Rehab?! Do you have any where you can point to showing the rehab of a 600 time plus re-offender?! This woman should quite clearly not be walking the streets, the fact that she is free to pilfer further from people trying to earn a living, is sickening.

Little to no consequences for committing crimes. = Little to no deterrent. Do you honestly believe that stupidly lenient sentences for repeat offenders (or any offender) doesnt result in greater levels of criminality? I.e. thief's like this one have little or nothing to fear if caught.

But she has seen consequences. She's been imprisoned for stretches that any normal person would find intolerable. People like her will never be deterred by the criminal justice system as it stands. It is not working.

The idea that its cheaper to spend 100k per annum for the rest of her life (what's the life expectancy for a sober woman who's reached the age of 45... About 80?) is simply ridiculous.

You're talking about pouring millions of euro of public money down the drain instead of pursuing evidence-based solutions, which save money. Surely everyone except the most hard-headed idealogues can see the obvious here.

Ronaldinho · 16-07-2019 10:50pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

instead of pursuing evidence-based solutions

Colour me sceptical, but if you can link some stuff on these evidence-based solutions I'd be interested to read them.

givyjoe · 16-07-2019 10:57pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But she has seen consequences. She's been imprisoned for stretches that any normal person would find intolerable. People like her will never be deterred by the criminal justice system as it stands. It is not working.

The idea that its cheaper to spend 100k per annum for the rest of her life (what's the life expectancy for a sober woman who's reached the age of 45... About 80?) is simply ridiculous.

You're talking about pouring millions of euro of public money down the drain instead of pursuing evidence-based solutions, which save money. Surely everyone except the most hard-headed idealogues can see the obvious here.

Save money?! What programmes are you talking about that are magically going to cure this women of her ills. Even if you cure her addictions, zero guarantee she's going to stop stealing. Plenty of thieves with absolutely no substance abuse problems. The woman pleaded for one final chance, clearly having her liberty taken away IS a deterrent.

I'm talking about putting someone in prison for the crime they committed, not putting someone in prison because its "too expensive" only to walk the streets with no credible means of stopping her re-offending, is utter lunacy.

Until there's some magic potion or programme to "cure" such people, they should be imprisoned. As for cost, what about the cost to the business she's stolen from? What is the cost to the economy due to low life's like this? How much has she cost the state in endless legal aid. 600+ convictions. What would the cost of legal aid have been in each case, 1k, 500 euros? Hardly chump change.

dudara · 16-07-2019 11:20pm

@sonny noggs - red carded for suggesting a person should be killed.

dudara

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 16-07-2019 11:30pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can give her the benefit of the doubt if you like but I'm working from the fact that the Irish criminal justice system doesn't focus on rehabilitation.

What does that mean? Can we bang her up until she is rehabilitated? If so fine.

DellyBelly · 16-07-2019 11:33pm

You just wonder how this person gets up everyday and gets on with life...even if it is totally disfunctional. I don't think I'd be able to live like that...I suppose the will to live is strong...

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 16-07-2019 11:34pm

Odhinn wrote: »

So you think that allowing a maladjusted individual to continually commit crime is a more sensible approach than medical intervention?

You know we spend millions, maybe tens to hundreds of millions on rehabilitation. I have a friend (friend of a friend really) who gets a juicy 6 figure income as a medical consultant treating these lads, and from the stories I hear he’s welcome to it.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 16-07-2019 11:36pm

Thread:

Woman with 648 convictions not jailed for latest crime.

Response:

Maybe we should stop locking people up?

Eric Cartman · 17-07-2019 12:24am

There is absolutely no excuse under the sun, no amount of ‘undiagnosed mental health issues’ , no ‘area bad enough’ to grow up in , no parents abusive enough, no ‘ethnic minority boss’ deprived enough to justify 25 let alone 50, 100, 200 or this insane amount of convictions.

The only solution to this is a mandatory life on 10 strikes.

Graces7 · 17-07-2019 6:48am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There is absolutely no excuse under the sun, no amount of ‘undiagnosed mental health issues’ , no ‘area bad enough’ to grow up in , no parents abusive enough, no ‘ethnic minority boss’ deprived enough to justify 25 let alone 50, 100, 200 or this insane amount of convictions.

The only solution to this is a mandatory life on 10 strikes.

for small thefts? so what do you intend for murder then?

You have also clearly led a very protected sheltered life .

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 8:01am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Thread:

Woman with 648 convictions not jailed for latest crime.

Response:

Maybe we should stop locking people up?

God almighty that would be a terrible response. Would you be so kind as to quote the poster who said that? Or alternatively acknowledge that you're misrepresenting them? Cheers.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 8:10am

Sonny noggs wrote: »

No, it wouldn’t, if you factored in the total cost to her victims, court appearances, free legal aid it would be the bargain of the century.

I think the fewer facts and figures you post, the more certain you can be. Being completely free of either, your absolute certainty is to be expected even if it's not merited.

At a relativey conservative 1,500 per week in prison for 40 years, it comes out at over 3m. It's absolutely incredible that you would be willing to spaff 3.m of taxpayer's money without even consider a way to rehabilitate the person to the betterment of society.

Some people are just married to the idea of punishment.

Hal3000 · 17-07-2019 9:19am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think the fewer facts and figures you post, the more certain you can be. Being completely free of either, your absolute certainty is to be expected even if it's not merited.

At a relativey conservative 1,500 per week in prison for 40 years, it comes out at over 3m. It's absolutely incredible that you would be willing to spaff 3.m of taxpayer's money without even consider a way to rehabilitate the person to the betterment of society.

Some people are just married to the idea of punishment.

How much will these rehabilitation programs you speak of cost? Who will run them and who will monitor them? When do you decide that it's not working? 50th, 60th or perhaps even 70th offence? Seems like a lot of experimentation is needed with these fine programs you propose. I just hope you're not a victim during the period of all of these peoples rehabilitation programs. We would soon see your attitude change if you were.

splinter65 · 17-07-2019 9:26am

The poor woman needs to be removed permanently to a long term care facility even if it’s against her will. Her life is a total nightmare of alcoholism and stealing and being up in front of the judge.
At 44 she can’t cope with life and never will be able. Her problems have caused herself and the rest of her fellow humans including her family so much trouble and expense that it’s time to say enough now.
She could have supervised visits out in maybe 5 or 6 years time but right now she needs permanent long term institutionalized care. No human being needs to live as she is living and the rest of society doesn’t deserve the consequences.

Nermal · 17-07-2019 9:32am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

At a relativey conservative 1,500 per week in prison for 40 years, it comes out at over 3m.

A box and 1500 calories a day shouldn't cost that much, but even if it did, that is a bargain. She has already cost society far more than that. Less than €5,000 per conviction!

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 10:04am

Hal3000 wrote: »

How much will these rehabilitation programs you speak of cost? Who will run them and who will monitor them? When do you decide that it's not working? 50th, 60th or perhaps even 70th offence? Seems like a lot of experimentation is needed with these fine programs you propose. I just hope you're not a victim during the period of all of these peoples rehabilitation programs. We would soon see your attitude change if you were.

Funny that you were never the slightest bit curious about the cost of imprisonment but now you're PWC.

I've no doubt it would be expensive. I've repeatedly referred to it as an investment. Prison is expensive and it's not an investment in anything. It's just warehousing criminals in an environment full of drugs and criminals.

Oh yes it would require "experimentation" as you call it. I call it research led practice. That means we actually evaluate the effectiveness, efficiency and economy of programmes. Improve or replace the ones that are delivering poor results. Evaluate the interventions against each other to find what works best and for which criminal groups and individuals.

Then there would be the return to the community procedures for those who are deemed ready. Monitoring and support for those returning to civilian life. Support to get a job, apply for appropriate benefits, apply for education and training.

Would this guarantee that the person will never commit a crime again? No.
Recidivism rates would need to be measured against rates for those who haven't been through the rehabilitation.

That's brief overview of the kind of performance audits I would support but I'm obviously a lay man.

So, I took your question seriously and gave a considered response. How would you audit the effectiveness, efficiency and economy of the approach you propose?

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 10:06am

Nermal wrote: »

A box and 1500 calories a day shouldn't cost that much, but even if it did, that is a bargain. She has already cost society far more than that. Less than €5,000 per conviction!

Chortle Chortle Chortle.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-07-2019 10:13am

splinter65 wrote: »

The poor woman needs to be removed permanently to a long term care facility even if it’s against her will. Her life is a total nightmare of alcoholism and stealing and being up in front of the judge.
At 44 she can’t cope with life and never will be able. Her problems have caused herself and the rest of her fellow humans including her family so much trouble and expense that it’s time to say enough now.
She could have supervised visits out in maybe 5 or 6 years time but right now she needs permanent long term institutionalized care. No human being needs to live as she is living and the rest of society doesn’t deserve the consequences.

That's not a million miles away from my approach. If she can learn to live a relatively normal life then she could be released to the community. If not then she should stay in the forensic hospital.

Woman rakes up 648 convictions

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