NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy Review

Kellyconor1982 · 20-02-2021 10:24am

I'm a northsider but this part of the city is criminally under resourced by public transport. The green line should be completed but i see no issue with the sw being prioritised and having a Metro line by the 2030s.

The area that most needs (Ballycullen/Knocklyon) it is young with further big developments planned. It should go on to Tallaght imo though. I would place a stop where Rathfarnham shopping centre is and build retail above it. This would be a good place for getting Templeogue as well as Rathfarnham residents. The Rathmines/Harolds Cross area is very vibrant so I think it would be brilliant with a Metro station.

Look we all want the best for this city, no more than I want cities like Cork to have a proper pt system. It seems that for years we have been served crumbs so that when anything decent has been offered like Metrolink, it leads to people fighting to get the service and sometimes downplaying what other areas deserve. Not saying that is happening here but to say an area like Dublin south west hasn't got the population for this is wrong. It does and it's needs will be greater in 20 or 30 years.

Even if work patterns change and they will, we need to have a plan over the next 40 or 50 years to have multiple Metro lines with every part of the city served.

LXFlyer · 20-02-2021 12:39pm

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

I'm a northsider but this part of the city is criminally under resourced by public transport. The green line should be completed but i see no issue with the sw being prioritised and having a Metro line by the 2030s.

The area that most needs (Ballycullen/Knocklyon) it is young with further big developments planned. It should go on to Tallaght imo though. I would place a stop where Rathfarnham shopping centre is and build retail above it. This would be a good place for getting Templeogue as well as Rathfarnham residents. The Rathmines/Harolds Cross area is very vibrant so I think it would be brilliant with a Metro station.

Look we all want the best for this city, no more than I want cities like Cork to have a proper pt system. It seems that for years we have been served crumbs so that when anything decent has been offered like Metrolink, it leads to people fighting to get the service and sometimes downplaying what other areas deserve. Not saying that is happening here but to say an area like Dublin south west hasn't got the population for this is wrong. It does and it's needs will be greater in 20 or 30 years.

Even if work patterns change and they will, we need to have a plan over the next 40 or 50 years to have multiple Metro lines with every part of the city served.

Absolutely agree with this - for the record I have no issue with the need to provide adequate transport to/from the massive developments planned for Cherrywood.

But it really does grate with me when I read posts telling me that there's not going to be much more significant development in the south and southwest areas, when in fact I know that there is such development happening and more is planned.

It is an area that has historically been completely starved of any form of decent public transport and which has suffered the slowest bus speeds in the city for decades at this point.

These ongoing and future developments are just going to make that situation worse.

The narrative from some here that there are no major developments happening in the area needs to stop.

strassenwo!f · 26-02-2021 1:41pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

There has been no change whatsoever to the Strategy since 2016, it's legislatively underpinned. It cannot be changed on a whim. Despite the issues in Beechwood, the Metro is still planned to go to Sandyford and then to Bride's Glen by 2035. The NTA are legally required to pursue this alignment.

There's no evidence anywhere to suggest that metro services will not be extended to Bride's Glen between 2027 and 2035. The only timeframe given for the metro from Charlemont to Sandyford is the year by which the upgrade MUST be made to meet capacity.
May 2019
The goal is still, of the Strategy, to deliver a metro to Sandyford. Simply, we are not going to do it now, or in the short term.

— Paolo Carbone, Head of Public Transport Capital Programmes at Transport Infrastructure Ireland

Is there such legislation?

If so, could you direct us to it, perhaps on something like irishstatutebook.ie?

roadmaster · 26-02-2021 3:30pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Even if there was a bus only bridge from Liffey Valley to Blanch I'd be happy with that. The fact that we have no public transport or active mode alternative to the state's busiest road is damning. If you want to walk or cycle the 2km crow flying distance you must take a 10km diversion. The route by car is a much shorter using the M50, which should never be the case.

Instead of Metro if you built a public transport road along the route of what was metro west allowing only buses, cyclist and pedestrians it would probably work out a lot cheaper and end up with the same efficiency as a metro with the added benefit of cycle/walking lanes as well

CatInABox · 26-02-2021 4:54pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Instead of Metro if you built a public transport road along the route of what was metro west allowing only buses, cyclist and pedestrians it would probably work out a lot cheaper and end up with the same efficiency as a metro with the added benefit of cycle/walking lanes as well

In fact, that's what the NTA decided upon, a BRT along the route of the old Metro West alignment would meet the capacity needs for a few decades before an actual metro was required.

AngryLips · 26-02-2021 5:05pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Instead of Metro if you built a public transport road along the route of what was metro west allowing only buses, cyclist and pedestrians it would probably work out a lot cheaper and end up with the same efficiency as a metro with the added benefit of cycle/walking lanes as well

Why would we need to build a new public transport road? Sure we have plenty of roads lying around the place just waiting to be turned into public transport roads. We could solve the entire city's problems in one swoop.

roadmaster · 26-02-2021 6:48pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Why would we need to build a new public transport road? Sure we have plenty of roads lying around the place just waiting to be turned into public transport roads. We could solve the entire city's problems in one swoop.

Because that's not realistic

roadmaster · 26-02-2021 6:50pm

CatInABox wrote: »

In fact, that's what the NTA decided upon, a BRT along the route of the old Metro West alignment would meet the capacity needs for a few decades before an actual metro was required.

Are they going ahead with that?

CatInABox · 26-02-2021 7:18pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Are they going ahead with that?

It's still in the plan, eventually, but it's so far off that I can't say with any kind of certainty one way or the other.

Pete_Cavan · 26-02-2021 7:49pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Why would we need to build a new public transport road? Sure we have plenty of roads lying around the place just waiting to be turned into public transport roads. We could solve the entire city's problems in one swoop.

We don't have many roads lying around crossing the Liffey. The M50 isn't really an option due to access difficulties. Ideally we'd build a bridge linking the R113 and R121.

Stark · 26-02-2021 8:03pm

Restoration of the silver bridge joining Waterstown park in Palmerstown and Farmleigh would be a great first step (for walker and cyclists). Surprised there doesn't seem to be any action on it. It's been on the council's radar and many councillors have had it in their election manifestos for years.

02-03-2021 5:26pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

There has been no change whatsoever to the Strategy since 2016, it's legislatively underpinned. It cannot be changed on a whim. Despite the issues in Beechwood, the Metro is still planned to go to Sandyford and then to Bride's Glen by 2035. The NTA are legally required to pursue this alignment.

There's no evidence anywhere to suggest that metro services will not be extended to Bride's Glen between 2027 and 2035. The only timeframe given for the metro from Charlemont to Sandyford is the year by which the upgrade MUST be made to meet capacity.
May 2019
The goal is still, of the Strategy, to deliver a metro to Sandyford. Simply, we are not going to do it now, or in the short term.

— Paolo Carbone, Head of Public Transport Capital Programmes at Transport Infrastructure Ireland

The legislation you seem to be referring to is S12 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, and you may be further confusing it with S13 (integrated implementation plan). Nothing in the act requires the National Transport Authority (or anyone else) to actually follow the strategy.

Further,

(16) Where the Authority has made a transport strategy, it shall not later than 6 years after the making of the strategy and not less than once in every period of 6 years thereafter, review such strategy and when so reviewing, it may revoke the strategy and make a new strategy.

It appears that you're completely incorrect? Would love to hear otherwise however!

yascaoimhin · 08-03-2021 12:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...Nothing in the act requires the National Transport Authority (or anyone else) to actually follow the strategy....

I'm not referring to the Act, I referring to the countless amount of times representatives from the NTA clarify that the Strategy is legislatively underpinned and they are required to follow it.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2021 1:13pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

I'm not referring to the Act, I referring to the countless amount of times representatives from the NTA clarify that the Strategy is legislatively underpinned and they are required to follow it.

It is fair comment to say though, that the strategy can change as an outcome of the legislatively underpinned review that is now starting to take place.

But until that review is completed, you're correct in saying that the strategy must be implemented as it currently stands.

Peregrine · 08-03-2021 3:21pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It is fair comment to say though, that the strategy can change as an outcome of the legislatively underpinned review that is now starting to take place.

But until that review is completed, you're correct in saying that the strategy must be implemented as it currently stands.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the review can change the strategy. That's required in the legislation after all.

The original comment by strassenwolf which started this was:

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Since 2016 there has been a significant change to the strategy shown in your image: the NTA no longer intend to build a metro to Sandyford within the lifetime of this plan.

Which is just plainly wrong.

As for the earlier comment about whether the NTA has to follow the strategy. This is also in the legislation. It has to "take all reasonably practical steps to implement it". There's a bit of wriggle room there. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Hugh Cregan will be sent to prison if a metro to Bride's Glen isn't built by 2035 but it's not right to say that the NTA doesn't have to follow the strategy.

(15) As soon as practicable after the Minister has notified the Authority that he or she has approved a transport strategy, the Authority shall publish it and take all reasonably practical steps to implement it.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2021 3:56pm

Peregrine wrote: »

I don't think anyone is disputing that the review can change the strategy. That's required in the legislation after all.

The original comment by strassenwolf which started this was:

Which is just plainly wrong.

As for the earlier comment about whether the NTA has to follow the strategy. This is also in the legislation. It has to "take all reasonably practical steps to implement it". I don't think anyone is suggesting that Hugh Cregan will be sent to prison if a metro to Bride's Glen isn't built by 2035 but it's not right to say that the NTA doesn't have to follow the strategy.

Quite so. I would agree with all of that.

Sorry, but I've long since had that particular poster blanked out using the ignore facility and I in general avoid reading any quoted posts of his, so I don't have to read the daft ramblings, so wasn't fully aware of his statements.

In the case of Metrolink, I think a fairer description of the current situation would be that as a result of the public consultation, the original implementation plan of the strategy changed.

It would also be fair to say that while the strategy remains unchanged currently, the implementation of Metrolink south of Charlemont will depend on the strategy review that is ongoing. It would be naive to say that the NTA will blindly go on with the implementation regardless.

09-03-2021 3:28am

As for the earlier comment about whether the NTA has to follow the strategy. This is also in the legislation. It has to "take all reasonably practical steps to implement it". There's a bit of wriggle room there. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Hugh Cregan will be sent to prison if a metro to Bride's Glen isn't built by 2035 but it's not right to say that the NTA doesn't have to follow the strategy.

There's an infinite level of wiggle room in it. Reasonable is contextual, practical is contextual, and it makes no mention of timeliness.

It's a guideline rather than a legal requirement.

If you'd like some evidence, how about how the 16 core bus routes of Busconnects are already changed from the 16 core bus routes identified in the Strategy? Or the changes to the orbital routes? or how BRT lines are completely off the agenda - despite the strategy not having changed and it being 'legally required'?

Considering these routes require planning permission and will eventually represent an investment of a decade or so + hundreds of millions of Euros, if these aren't 'legally underpinned' how is it that the Metro is?

riddlinrussell · 09-03-2021 10:45am

I think we have diverged quite a bit from the spirit of the argument being made, we have had no indication whatsoever that the NTA is not determined to upgrade the green line.

The dropping of the Metro South section was primarily due to the sewerage issues, and yes there are a number of logistical problems with implementation that they should definitely go back to the drawing board on to figure out an optimal solution during construction.

But unless the reviewed Strategy comes out and the green line upgrade is dropped, I would say that the people who actually matter in making those decisions are still planning to build it.

Peregrine · 18-09-2021 8:00pm

The Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area will be published in a few weeks. It was supposed to be published in the summer but I was told late September a few weeks ago. It could be October at this rate.

Peregrine · 25-09-2021 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909117#Comment_117909117

Make that November. The NDP launch in the first week of October will tell us a good bit though.

Bsharp · 26-09-2021 2:19pm

Presume anything not firmed up in GDA Strategy yet is to the back of the funding envelope, so post NDP.

All feels so academic once again.

Peregrine · 28-10-2021 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937417#Comment_117937417

November 4th is the provisional publication date for the new Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area.

dublinman1990 · 04-11-2021 1:22am

Is there any indication at all that projects like the Metrolink spur to UCD Belfield & the Navan Rail line will be included to be built in future in this revised strategy.

Peregrine · 04-11-2021 2:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116080#Comment_118116080

No way to say, really. We'll have to wait for the Draft Strategy (now due on the 9th). The new Strategy will take us out to 2042 which is a long time.

namloc1980 · 09-11-2021 11:37am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/revised-dublin-transport-plan-sees-costs-double-to-25bn-and-rail-projects-delayed-1.4723491

DART Underground indefinitely shelved. No other rail lines to be operational before 2031. Hilariously bad.

Planning and design work will be undertaken on eight more Luas routes to Clongriffin, Balgriffin, Tyrellstown, Blanchardstown, Clondalkin, Tallaght / Kimmage, Tallaght / Knocklyon and UCD/ Sandyford. However, no construction is due to take place on these lines before 2042.

namloc1980 · 09-11-2021 11:51am

21 years gets you this.

marno21 · 09-11-2021 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140267#Comment_118140267

That’s actually been the plan since 2016 so you can make that 26 years

jd · 09-11-2021 11:58am

RTE reporting this - I hope they have it wrong

"However MetroLink - for which the cost is reported to have increased to €10bn - will not see construction start for at least another ten years.

This would mean its earliest completion date would be 2037 - ten years later than originally planned"

Sierra Oscar · 09-11-2021 12:11pm

It's shocking that this is the best we can achieve when our economy is arguably at its strongest coupled with the availability of cheap credit on the international markets to fund infrastructure projects.

It's hard to stay positive that MetroLink and DART Underground will ever go ahead considering how unambitious the Government appears to be. Shocking performance by the Green Party in particular. We've got a few cycle lanes and that's about it. So uninspiring and just overall 'meh'.

MyLove4Satan · 09-11-2021 12:12pm

I knew this was coming when I heard 'more expensive than 10 Luas lines' was being fed to us by the propagandists in the Irish media.

namloc1980 · 09-11-2021 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140303#Comment_118140303

2016 plan had Metro south of Charlemont so it's actually less ambitious and 26 years.

09-11-2021 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140267#Comment_118140267

They are showing existing lines there, so all we have by 2042 is the metro link and two new Luas lines.

L1011 · 09-11-2021 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140569#Comment_118140569

And two Luas extensions, one of which has been proposed for a decade and a half.

AngryLips · 09-11-2021 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140569#Comment_118140569

What is the second luas line? All I'm seeing is one new luas line to Lucan, plus three extensions.

That said, it is slightly disingenuous of the IT to report that no new train or tram lines will be built in Dublin for at least twenty years when Metro will be delivered during that time ...it's still a disappointing result nonetheless though, and it begs the question: what have the NTA and TII been doing over the last seven years given that no major public transport infrastructure projects have been initiated since Luas cross-city.

09-11-2021 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140638#Comment_118140638

You are right. Finglas is an extension.

loyatemu · 09-11-2021 1:18pm

that Finglas-Bray tram line though - never mind the quality, feel the length!

JohnnyChimpo · 09-11-2021 1:41pm

Not gonna lie, living in Cabra I'm pretty excited to be able to get the Green line straight to Bray. If I'm not dead by then. Shame that Bray will be underwater in 2042

dublinman1990 · 09-11-2021 2:35pm

I'm really disappointed with the outcomes of this review being published today. If the Government is pretty serious about our GHG emissions from the Climate AP released last Thursday; l would say right now that with all of the other transport projects being delayed in the NDP because of a lack of funding. You better prepare for a disappointing outcome if the next 10 years have passed. They won't be reduced by very much at all if we get to 2030.

Metrolink not being built until 2037 is a real scandal IMO. It's a very painful decision to announce it to the public in this way. I will be hitting my late 40's if I get ever a chance to use it if it actually gets built in Dublin at all. The likes of Dublin Airport will be waiting for another 16 years for Metrolink to be built & used by their passengers & for their staff who live out in Swords. This means that these people will still have to rely on using buses, taxis and private cars to get to the airport over the medium & long term until this thing finally gets built for them to actually use it. It's really looks that grim for the want of a better word.

The report on this strategy today by John Kilraine of RTÉ News did not mention BusConnects on the One O'Clock News but it is mentioned on the app & website.

Was anything mentioned in the review today about either the mooted Dart+ South West extension to Kildare or about the committment to the Navan Rail line.

cgcsb · 09-11-2021 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140638#Comment_118140638

A new bus livery and soon a new bus numbering scheme

cgcsb · 09-11-2021 2:49pm

To be fair the strategy doesn't say metro link is delayed by 10 years, just that it'll be after 2031 and it also says quite firmly that the project will be progressed pending a successful railway order in 2022. Which I think could happen. Will government hand over the cash in 2022 though is the question.

I reject the NTA's assertion that there are extreme budgetary constraints. There has been no significant capital expenditure on public transport in Ireland since luas cross city was finished in 2017. Surely the capital budget for 2018 to 2022 can be saved for starting construction on a new project in 2022/3

If construction on metrolink starts in 2023 surely it would not take 8 years to complete? Its not really that complex a project internationally speaking.

namloc1980 · 09-11-2021 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141148#Comment_118141148

They are betting the house that large numbers of people will get PCP/car loans to buy new EVs to reduce emissions. That's the plan as far as I can see.

dublinman1990 · 09-11-2021 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141265#Comment_118141265

I do understand the merits of that idea. However is that plan actually doable if our planning system is committing itself to actually build of these new charging points at various locations all around the country right up until 2030.

Also would people be able to commit to actually provide a charging point for their cars themselves outside their own homes.

richiek83 · 09-11-2021 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141240#Comment_118141240

Construction will commence in Phase 1 of the Plan (the period to 2030). Will then be operational in the early part of phase 2 of the plan. My guess would be a 2024 commencement date subject to ABP approving in 12-18 months and no legal challenges and final business case being approved. Current Govt would need this project to be in construction by next election considering the amount of news on the project over the last few months.

09-11-2021 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141265#Comment_118141265

% of car sales done under PCP has always been high, with some dealers reporting up to 70% of sales back in 2017

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/car-sales-nervously-reliant-on-pcp-1.3088002

Sierra Oscar · 09-11-2021 4:15pm

From listening to Anne Graham of the NTA on News at One, it's clear that the NTA are putting all their eggs in the BusConnects basket in terms of achieving climate change and public transport targets over the next two decades. She didn't sound too confident about even delivering that, 'hugely challenging'. Really poor stuff.

Sounds like they don't really envisage Metro Link coming on stream before 2040. The reopening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel means the DART Underground is no longer needed according to Ms Graham. Not enough demand on existing services using the tunnel, so they're making the assumption that there isn't enough demand for DART Underground. Pull the other one. 🙄

No ambition.

cgcsb · 09-11-2021 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141419#Comment_118141419

Parts of DART+ will be under construction at the same time so will be interesting how they manage this in terms of capital budgets.

cgcsb · 09-11-2021 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141770#Comment_118141770

The cbc project just won't be delivered as is, not in the current political climate, too many influential folks will be upset

Pete_Cavan · 09-11-2021 4:54pm

The Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy gets reviewed and updated every 5 years. All that matters now is that it commits to the things which can happen in the next 5 years (BusConnects, Metrolink, DART+). It will change again in 5 years and anything can be added at that point if necessary. There was really no point in some wishy washy intention for DART+ Tunnel like with all these aspirational Luas lines, it means nothing now or for the foreseeable future.

roddney · 09-11-2021 6:11pm

The biggest problem with the current plan, is that the only actual new route is the Metrolink. Everything else is an upgrade to existing routes, which while welcome to existing commuters it doesn't do much to add new ones and cover the large infrastructure holes in the city. Surprised there isn't a bit more ambition on new Luas lines as they are cheap compared to a Metro or Dart Underground.

cgcsb · 09-11-2021 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142354#Comment_118142354

In the long term, I'm curious how lucan luas is going to be squared with the long fabled plans for a plaza at college green.

And the othe proposals for luas on some bus corridors, are we going to see luas and High frequency buses share large lengths of road space or are we going to see massive curtailment of cars on radial routes. I look forward to the reports of future cancelled projects.

NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy Review

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