Advertisement
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy Review

  • 27-11-2020 5:14pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    The NTA has started the process of the statutory review of the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy, which will then extend out to 2042.

    See the link below for more info.

    As I alluded to in a post on the Metrolink thread, one would hope that people will take far greater notice of it this time, now that the issues are coming to the fore through the various projects, as I do genuinely believe that it went over most people's heads the first time around.

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/nta-publishes-issues-paper-ahead-of-revising-greater-dublin-area-transport-strategy/
    The National Transport Authority (NTA) has today published an Issues Paper as an initial part of the statutory review of the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy (2016-2035).

    The Authority is asking members of the public to provide their views and objectives as part of a preliminary consultation process. They can do so by completing an online feedback form on this page.

    In particular, NTA wants to understand what people’s overall priorities are for the Transport Strategy. That might be sustainability, accessibility, economic development or tackling disadvantage.

    A second major consultation process will take place around the middle of next year following the development of draft strategy proposals.

    This review process will involve assessing the implementation of the existing plan, and producing an updated Strategy which will set out the framework for investment in transport infrastructure and services, taking us to 2042.

    The revision of the Strategy will be consistent with the spatial planning policies and objectives set out in the Regional Spatial and Economic Strategy (RSES) as adopted by the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, and finalised in January 2020. These objectives in turn are consistent with the National Planning Framework and the National Development Plan, as set out in Project Ireland 2040.

    The revised Strategy will also reflect national policies on sustainability as set out in climate action and low carbon legislation, and in climate action plans. The potential impacts of the on-going Covid-19 pandemic, beyond the short-term, will also be taken into account.

    Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan TD said: “This consultation plays an important role in planning a transport system that is fit for purpose, and responsive to the needs of the public. I would encourage everyone to engage, read through the discussion document and make your feedback known. This is about improving our overall transport system and deciding how we travel through our local area, how we bring our children to school, travel to work and visit friends and family.”

    Anne Graham, CEO, NTA said: “We now need people’s help. We want to hear people’s views on what should be considered in the preparation of the new Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area.

    “We’re asking people to read our discussion document and then go to the website and respond to questions in the feedback form. This will help us shape our approach so that the revised Strategy we publish next year, reflects the views of the public.

    “Next year, we will publish a draft of our revised Strategy. That will include specifics on all our proposals for the region, investment plans, projections, transport modelling etc.

    “At that stage we will be inviting members of the public to consider the draft plan in detail; assess it in terms of future transport needs at regional, local and even household level; and provide us with feedback on what we are putting forward.

    “In that way we can get a sense as to whether we are on the right track when it comes to making Dublin a better place to live in, to work in, and to visit.

    “But for now, we want to get an overall sense as to what people’s priorities are in relation to transport in the Greater Dublin Area.”

    NTA hopes to publish a draft Strategy Review in summer 2021. In advance of that, a number of studies will be undertaken, the results of which will be fed into the review process. These will include:

    Assessment of Metro to Terenure-Rathfarnham-Knocklyon
    Assessment of Metro to UCD-Sandyford
    Assessment of a rail line to Navan
    The Issues Paper released today can be accessed at: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NTA-GDA-Transport-Strategy-2020-proof-5-FINAL-WEB.pdf

    See more details on the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy on our page.


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ specialbyte


    So my wish list for changes of the strategy look a little like this.

    #1 Change the objective, which was used in the last strategy from providing enough new public transport capacity to meet growing demand (i.e. population growth), to an objective around modal shift to walking, cycling and public transport. There's two obvious reasons for this: that will actually make a dent in our transport problems instead of just running to stand still; climate action.

    #2 Remove a number of road expansion projects from the NTA Strategy. These projects are against the goals of modal shift and climate action. This includes projects like widening the M4 from Maynooth to the M50. or widening the N11 to the M50. Remove the Eastern Bypass Road from the strategy too. It's an out-dated road idea that we don't need. Refocus the money and human resources onto other projects for sustainable transport.

    #3 Commit to actual road pricing to reduce motor traffic demand. The current strategy is a little non-committal on this.

    #4 Press on with the current mega projects that are in progress: BusConnects, MetroLink, DART+, Luas to Finglas and the GDA Cycle Network Plan.

    #5 Consider (re-)adding: DART to Navan, MetroWest, Metro South to Sandyford (not to Rathfarnham or UCD etc) to the strategy

    #6 Commit to building large-scale (200-500 spaces) secure and covered cycle parking: Swords near MetroLink stations; Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley and Tallaght at the BusConnects stations.

    #7 Commit to a traffic circulation plan for key urban centres (city centre, Dun Laoghaire, Tallaght, and Swords) to prevent through motor traffic in these urban centres to free up more space for walking, cycling, public transport and urban realm projects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭ Kellyconor1982


    So my wish list for changes of the strategy look a little like this.

    #1 Change the objective, which was used in the last strategy from providing enough new public transport capacity to meet growing demand (i.e. population growth), to an objective around modal shift to walking, cycling and public transport. There's two obvious reasons for this: that will actually make a dent in our transport problems instead of just running to stand still; climate action.

    #2 Remove a number of road expansion projects from the NTA Strategy. These projects are against the goals of modal shift and climate action. This includes projects like widening the M4 from Maynooth to the M50. or widening the N11 to the M50. Remove the Eastern Bypass Road from the strategy too. It's an out-dated road idea that we don't need. Refocus the money and human resources onto other projects for sustainable transport.

    #3 Commit to actual road pricing to reduce motor traffic demand. The current strategy is a little non-committal on this.

    #4 Press on with the current mega projects that are in progress: BusConnects, MetroLink, DART+, Luas to Finglas and the GDA Cycle Network Plan.

    #5 Consider (re-)adding: DART to Navan, MetroWest, Metro South to Sandyford (not to Rathfarnham or UCD etc) to the strategy

    #6 Commit to building large-scale (200-500 spaces) secure and covered cycle parking: Swords near MetroLink stations; Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley and Tallaght at the BusConnects stations.

    #7 Commit to a traffic circulation plan for key urban centres (city centre, Dun Laoghaire, Tallaght, and Swords) to prevent through motor traffic in these urban centres to free up more space for walking, cycling, public transport and urban realm projects.

    I like all that, but Dublin South West criminally lacks proper rail transport and with big developments out there, it will only get worse.
    For what it's worth, I live on the northside and have nothing to gain from Metrolink going out there.
    I would like Metro South to be completed as it should have been to Sandyford, but a SW spur needs to be on the agenda also. Over the next 30 years, we need to have multiple lines including the original Metro North/South, metro south west going northside, metro west as originally planned and possibly a spur to UCD also.
    With big investment in Dart also, it will be a gigantic outlay but it pays for itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    So my wish list for changes of the strategy look a little like this.

    #1 Change the objective, which was used in the last strategy from providing enough new public transport capacity to meet growing demand (i.e. population growth), to an objective around modal shift to walking, cycling and public transport. There's two obvious reasons for this: that will actually make a dent in our transport problems instead of just running to stand still; climate action.

    #2 Remove a number of road expansion projects from the NTA Strategy. These projects are against the goals of modal shift and climate action. This includes projects like widening the M4 from Maynooth to the M50. or widening the N11 to the M50. Remove the Eastern Bypass Road from the strategy too. It's an out-dated road idea that we don't need. Refocus the money and human resources onto other projects for sustainable transport.

    #3 Commit to actual road pricing to reduce motor traffic demand. The current strategy is a little non-committal on this.

    #4 Press on with the current mega projects that are in progress: BusConnects, MetroLink, DART+, Luas to Finglas and the GDA Cycle Network Plan.

    #5 Consider (re-)adding: DART to Navan, MetroWest, Metro South to Sandyford (not to Rathfarnham or UCD etc) to the strategy

    #6 Commit to building large-scale (200-500 spaces) secure and covered cycle parking: Swords near MetroLink stations; Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley and Tallaght at the BusConnects stations.

    #7 Commit to a traffic circulation plan for key urban centres (city centre, Dun Laoghaire, Tallaght, and Swords) to prevent through motor traffic in these urban centres to free up more space for walking, cycling, public transport and urban realm projects.

    Like the previous poster, I think that the strategy will need to look at rail options for the south central and southwest areas. Ignoring it as you seem suggest in point 5 isn't going to be an option.

    We need to start looking at planning a proper rail network across the city, and the south west quadrant has a real need for it - pre-Covid traffic congestion in the area was the worst in the city, looking at QBC speeds.

    BusConnects will certainly help, but there are a significant number of people who will never leave their cars unless a rail solution is offered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭ Kellyconor1982


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Like the previous poster, I think that the strategy will need to look at rail options for the south central and southwest areas. Ignoring it as you seem suggest in point 5 isn't going to be an option.

    We need to start looking at planning a proper rail network across the city, and the south west quadrant has a real need for it - pre-Covid traffic congestion in the area was the worst in the city, looking at QBC speeds.

    BusConnects will certainly help, but there are a significant number of people who will never leave their cars unless a rail solution is offered.

    Could be wrong but I think that the primary school in Knocklyon was the biggest in Europe a few years ago and that was before Ballycullen was developed. Not sure if that's still the case. I actually think that any sw route should terminate in Tallaght. It's a city in it's own right and a Luas isn't enough for it especially by the 2040s. The ideal long term plan could be that a Metro West would go through Tallaght and onwards link up with the Sandyford Metro to form a loop around the M50.

    I remember reading that there is a huge amount of developments in the Ballycullen/Rathfarnham area so an area that is criminally underdeveloped in terms of transport will be gigantically so in 20 years with a very young population.


  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ specialbyte


    I'd love to see a proper rail option provided to the south west corridor of the city. It really needs to end in Tallaght too as you mention Kellyconor1982 because the red line Luas can't do the job fully. It's also the corridor in the city with the worst modal share for cars (68%) and the lowest public transport share. Though somewhat surprisingly the highest cycling mode share (6%).

    In the original strategy there was a BRT from south Tallaght to the city centre via Rathfarnham and Terenure. This seems to have been dropped in favour of the BusConnects corridors 10 and 12. The current 95th percentile journey time on Rathfarnham to city centre by bus is 75 minutes. It is expected to be 25-30 minutes with the BusConnects CBC . (Source: CBC12 public brochure) The CBC10 corridor, that's M50/N81 junction to Terenure, is to see the 95th journey time changes from 32 minutes to 10-12 minutes. This changes are pretty significant and will have a huge affect on the modal share and the quality of the public transport offered. I do think that standard Dublin Bus on a high quality bus corridor doesn't have the same quality brand as BRT so I think the people of the south west corridor are getting / will feel cheated by not getting the BRT.

    The current GDA Transport Strategy has lots of good information in it for mode share and predicted demand growth. This is corridor E in the strategy. I've extracted some of the key graphics here: https://imgur.com/a/gigyImm

    This corridor has the lowest travel demand growth of only 9%. Whereas many other corridors are seeing growth in the 25% range. If you look at existing population density for Dublin: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/ireland/dublin/ it shows that this corridor is about as on-par as many of the other corridors, but without much room for infill development and limited expansion into the Dublin mountains foothills.

    This map (http://census.cso.ie/p6map41/) from the CSO is also pretty useful for thinking about travel demand. It shows work trips by electoral district and highlights areas that attract more people for work than travel out of the area. Unsurprisingly given that corridor E is almost entirely residential many more people leave the area for work than travel there for work. It's useful to compare Corridor E against the corridor that MetroLink is following. The MetroLink corridor hits many residential areas but also many trip attractors (i.e. destinations) including Mater Hospital, two future DART+ lines, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport, Swords (second fastest growing town in Ireland) and the business parks around Swords like Airside.

    If you want to look at a rail option for Corridor E it will have to be underground for almost the entire route. Luas Line E's evaluation showed that surface running would either require unsustainable road reallocation (particularly in the current context of bus gates in Kimmage and Rathmines as part of BusConnects) or would require massive CPOs.

    So we talking about building an underground metro on what is mostly suburban residential corridor with little re-development opportunity, low expansions options and without major trip attractors. Using MetroLink as a comparison this metro line would cost €3-4 billion. It doesn't stack up when there are so many other corridors in Dublin lacking high-quality public transport like Lucan, Blanchardstown or Clondalkin. We also have to ask are there projects like Luas lines in Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford that are higher priority than this? For €3-4 billion you could build a lot of Luas lines in regional cities. Or would that money be better spent on the intercity rail network particularly between Galway, Limerick and Cork to counter-balance Dublin?

    I wish the case for rail to the south west city did stand-up. In my eyes it doesn't.

    I really think we should be looking at building the proper BRT or expanding the BusConnects Core Bus Corridors 10 and 12 deeper into Corridor E to provide the high-quality public transport options the people deserve. It's what is realistic given the situation.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I'd love to see a proper rail option provided to the south west corridor of the city. It really needs to end in Tallaght too as you mention Kellyconor1982 because the red line Luas can't do the job fully. It's also the corridor in the city with the worst modal share for cars (68%) and the lowest public transport share. Though somewhat surprisingly the highest cycling mode share (6%).

    In the original strategy there was a BRT from south Tallaght to the city centre via Rathfarnham and Terenure. This seems to have been dropped in favour of the BusConnects corridors 10 and 12. The current 95th percentile journey time on Rathfarnham to city centre by bus is 75 minutes. It is expected to be 25-30 minutes with the BusConnects CBC . (Source: CBC12 public brochure) The CBC10 corridor, that's M50/N81 junction to Terenure, is to see the 95th journey time changes from 32 minutes to 10-12 minutes. This changes are pretty significant and will have a huge affect on the modal share and the quality of the public transport offered. I do think that standard Dublin Bus on a high quality bus corridor doesn't have the same quality brand as BRT so I think the people of the south west corridor are getting / will feel cheated by not getting the BRT.

    The current GDA Transport Strategy has lots of good information in it for mode share and predicted demand growth. This is corridor E in the strategy. I've extracted some of the key graphics here: https://imgur.com/a/gigyImm

    This corridor has the lowest travel demand growth of only 9%. Whereas many other corridors are seeing growth in the 25% range. If you look at existing population density for Dublin: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/ireland/dublin/ it shows that this corridor is about as on-par as many of the other corridors, but without much room for infill development and limited expansion into the Dublin mountains foothills.

    This map (http://census.cso.ie/p6map41/) from the CSO is also pretty useful for thinking about travel demand. It shows work trips by electoral district and highlights areas that attract more people for work than travel out of the area. Unsurprisingly given that corridor E is almost entirely residential many more people leave the area for work than travel there for work. It's useful to compare Corridor E against the corridor that MetroLink is following. The MetroLink corridor hits many residential areas but also many trip attractors (i.e. destinations) including Mater Hospital, two future DART+ lines, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport, Swords (second fastest growing town in Ireland) and the business parks around Swords like Airside.

    If you want to look at a rail option for Corridor E it will have to be underground for almost the entire route. Luas Line E's evaluation showed that surface running would either require unsustainable road reallocation (particularly in the current context of bus gates in Kimmage and Rathmines as part of BusConnects) or would require massive CPOs.

    So we talking about building an underground metro on what is mostly suburban residential corridor with little re-development opportunity, low expansions options and without major trip attractors. Using MetroLink as a comparison this metro line would cost €3-4 billion. It doesn't stack up when there are so many other corridors in Dublin lacking high-quality public transport like Lucan, Blanchardstown or Clondalkin. We also have to ask are there projects like Luas lines in Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford that are higher priority than this? For €3-4 billion you could build a lot of Luas lines in regional cities. Or would that money be better spent on the intercity rail network particularly between Galway, Limerick and Cork to counter-balance Dublin?

    I wish the case for rail to the south west city did stand-up. In my eyes it doesn't.

    I really think we should be looking at building the proper BRT or expanding the BusConnects Core Bus Corridors 10 and 12 deeper into Corridor E to provide the high-quality public transport options the people deserve. It's what is realistic given the situation.

    LUAS Line E was never going to happen. It was pie in the sky.

    BusConnects will certainly deliver increased reliability, and improved journey times, but I’d take those NTA projected journey times with a pinch of salt. Journey times pre-Covid were up to 90 minutes at peak times on the 15, 15b and 16 from terminus to the city centre. The notion that those trips are going to 25-30 mins is fanciful to say the least. It cannot be done with zero traffic as it is. Buses will still be serving bus stops. The journey times will improve but not to the degree suggested.

    Last time I checked, Lucan, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown are all getting DART in the short term strategically, so don’t start spouting nonsense about them being poorly served. They won’t be at the end of DART +. Lucan and Blanchardstown also have high frequency bus routes with significant priority as it is. You’re comparing them to an area that is in perpetual gridlock.

    As for other cities, that’s a different question. We are talking here about the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy here, not Cork, Galway or somewhere else, so let’s leave them to develop their own strategies.

    You clearly don’t have any experience of travelling in the area, because if you had, you’d understand my and other people’s frustration, which frankly is increased to boiling point when I read posts like yours above. Try commuting each way every day for 90 mins and you’ll realise why I get upset. This area of the city is a constant traffic jam and the only long term solution is a metro with feeder buses. BusConnects will help, but it’s not the long term solution.

    We are of course talking about a Metro to Tallaght, which has a third level college and the main hospital for south and southwest Dublin. P & R could be a major source of patronage for it.

    This is about looking out to 2042. The fact that you’re writing off a southwest metro from even being assessed as part of the strategy review just tells me all I need to know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    We are of course talking about a Metro to Tallaght, which has a third level college and the main hospital for south and southwest Dublin. P & R could be a major source of patronage for it.

    This is about looking out to 2042. The fact that you’re writing off a southwest metro from even being assessed as part of the strategy review just tells me all I need to know.

    In fairness, how long have we been trying to build a Metro on the northside serving a much bigger hospital (Mater), full university (DCU), a P&R on a much busier motorway plus by far the busiest airport in the country and connecting with heavy rail? I would certainly share the view that the business case for such a project would not be favourable. Assess it by all means but I think we need to look at other solutions to the lack of transport in this part of the city than hoping we can somehow deliver another Metro line out there by 2042.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    In fairness, how long have we been trying to build a Metro on the northside serving a much bigger hospital (Mater), full university (DCU), a P&R on a much busier motorway plus by far the busiest airport in the country and connecting with heavy rail? I would certainly share the view that the business case for such a project would not be favourable. Assess it by all means but I think we need to look at other solutions to the lack of transport in this part of the city than hoping we can somehow deliver another Metro line out there by 2042.

    The problem is that there really aren’t other solutions that deliver.

    The lack of sufficient roadspace is the problem for all of the surface ideas - narrow roads with villages built up close to the roads.

    BusConnects, which inevitably had to compromise, is funnelling all general traffic onto Terenure Road North with no other inward routes east until Ranelagh or west until Clogher Road. At the same time diverted traffic is going to be on the roads that three main orbital bus routes will use which again have limited scope for bus priority.

    Surface options aren’t ever going to solve it. Ultimately it will have to be underground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    This review is particularly welcome in relation to a possible southwest route, given that the bus journey times in that area are very high for city suburbs - when compared against city-suburb journey times in developed European cities.

    The population and population densities in the suburbs along any putative southwest route are generally higher than those on the proposed Swords-City metro. Only areas along the DART line - and certainly not all of those - have comparable suburban populations or population densities in Dublin.

    The first thing to do, in my opinion, would be to lop off the seemingly pointless St. Stephen's Green-Charlemont section of the proposed Metrolink. That shouldn't be enormously difficult, given that there must be some institutional memory about how to terminate a metro line in St. Stephen's Green.

    They've established that they won't need to do any replacement of the Charlemont - Sandyford section of the Green Line until some time in the 2040's, based on the current demand, or rather the pre-virus demand, so why not just plan to terminate it at St. Stephen's Green.

    Then, if the review says that the machines should go soon to the southwest, they easily can; and if the review says the machines should wait around for the 25 years or so for it to be necessary to have a replacement of the Charlemont - Sandyford section of the Green Line, where the populations and population densities are quite poor relative to the southwest, maybe they can do that too.

    A broad estimate would be that building an early phase, or perhaps a first phase, of the metrolink to a bit beyond the canal in the Rathmines area would be about the same as building it to Charlemont (the current plan) - there would be another 150-200m to get it to around the Church/St. Mary's College rugby pitch. From there to, say, Ballyboden, in a second phase - broadly under roads - would be 6 km; and from there to, say, Scholarstown and Tallaght, in a third phase, would add around another 5 km. Some of that might be possible to do overground.

    I am thus curious to know how the poster specialbyte above might have come up with a cost for something like this at 3-4 billion euro, given that the current 19 km Swords-Charlemont plan, which is to be built under the city, is slated to cost 3 billion. Is inflation expected to be so high?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    This review is particularly welcome in relation to a possible southwest route, given that the bus journey times in that area are very high for city suburbs - when compared against city-suburb journey times in developed European cities.

    The population and population densities in the suburbs along any putative southwest route are generally higher than those on the proposed Swords-City metro. Only areas along the DART line - and certainly not all of those - have comparable suburban populations or population densities in Dublin.

    The first thing to do, in my opinion, would be to lop off the seemingly pointless St. Stephen's Green-Charlemont section of the proposed Metrolink. That shouldn't be enormously difficult, given that there must be some institutional memory about how to terminate a metro line in St. Stephen's Green.

    They've established that they won't need to do any replacement of the Charlemont - Sandyford section of the Green Line until some time in the 2040's, based on the current demand, or rather the pre-virus demand, so why not just plan to terminate it at St. Stephen's Green.

    Then, if the review says that the machines should go soon to the southwest, they easily can; and if the review says the machines should wait around for the 25 years or so for it to be necessary to have a replacement of the Charlemont - Sandyford section of the Green Line, where the populations and population densities are quite poor relative to the southwest, maybe they can do that too.

    Where are you getting your figures on population densities? Based on this densities in the south west suburbs are almost exclusively in the 4 - 7k persons per sqkm range. You have plenty of that on the Metrolink route in inner suburbs south of Ballymun but pockets much higher density (>10k) new development north of Ballymun and Northwood, plus quite a bit of land for further higher density development.

    The Green Line is (or was) already exceeding capacity and there is substantial new residential development taking place at Ballyogan, Sandyford, Brennanstown Road and Cherrywood. The south west suburbs are already developed and dont have significant areas for further development.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭ Kellyconor1982


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Where are you getting your figures on population densities? Based on this densities in the south west suburbs are almost exclusively in the 4 - 7k persons per sqkm range. You have plenty of that on the Metrolink route in inner suburbs south of Ballymun but pockets much higher density (>10k) new development north of Ballymun and Northwood, plus quite a bit of land for further higher density development.

    The Green Line is (or was) already exceeding capacity and there is substantial new residential development taking place at Ballyogan, Sandyford, Brennanstown Road and Cherrywood. The south west suburbs are already developed and dont have significant areas for further development.

    The south city around Rathmines is obviously a very vibrant busy area. There is a huge amount of development planned in parts of Rathfarnham and Ballycullen. Knocklyon has a large young population while Tallaght is the biggest suburb in the country. The situation will be worse by the 2040s which is the earliest point when this route may expect a Metro line.

    As I said I live on the Northside. I have nothing to gain from a Metro line in the SW, but there is a real need for a line out this direction.

    I really struggle to see your opposition firstly and secondly your lack of foresight to what the needs of parts of the city will be in the 2040s and 2050s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    I really struggle to see your opposition firstly and secondly your lack of foresight to what the needs of parts of the city will be in the 2040s and 2050s.

    I'm not opposed to a south west metro line but it we need to be realistic. The Green Line is already in need of metro and it can be accommodated on the alignment (albeit with short term disruption). I can't see a south west metro being built in the next two decades given it has taken longer than that to deliver our first metro plan which would have a much stronger business case. The issues need to be addressed now rather than deciding metro is the solution and waiting decades in the hope it actually happens.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,198 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    Yes, I'm all in favour of a Metro out to the southwest, but it can't come at the expense of upgrading the Green Line to Metro. If that happens, then the cost of solving the Green Line capacity will spiral upward. Upgrading the Green Line to Metro is something that could be done relatively cheap, give a long term solution along that corridor, and will also set the standard for every other Metro line in the city.

    I've said before, any Cost Benefit Analysis is going to strongly favour doing the Green Line upgrade. Depending on the length of tunnelling required, I still can't see the ultimate cost being more than a billion. On the other hand, any other Metro South route is going to cost multiple billions. Not only would a different route cost billions, but it'll also add billions to any solution for the Green Line.

    Get Metrolink built, finish the extension to Sandyford, and the inevitable success of the line will create an unstoppable demand for more. As soon as they start on the upgrade to Sandyford, I'll be writing to TDs and Ministers asking that the NTA/TII start planning a second metro route for the South West corridor, but not before.


  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ specialbyte


    The deadline for feedback on the review of the GDA Transport Strategy is Friday 22nd January (i.e. today!).

    You don't have long to provide feedback. There is a simple multi-choice questionaire and there are options to provide more detailed feedback. Just go here to provide feedback: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/greater-dublin-area-transport-strategy/

    Here's a copy of the main points I submitted to the NTA: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xy52h16l9udmcn/Personal%20Transport%20Strategy%20Objectives%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0


  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭ Heartbreak Hank


    The deadline for feedback on the review of the GDA Transport Strategy is Friday 22nd January (i.e. today!).

    You don't have long to provide feedback. There is a simple multi-choice questionaire and there are options to provide more detailed feedback. Just go here to provide feedback: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/greater-dublin-area-transport-strategy/

    Here's a copy of the main points I submitted to the NTA: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xy52h16l9udmcn/Personal%20Transport%20Strategy%20Objectives%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0


    Excellent stuff. I agree with everything you have said; wish I had seen it before I sent mine in;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭ Tomrota


    The deadline for feedback on the review of the GDA Transport Strategy is Friday 22nd January (i.e. today!).

    You don't have long to provide feedback. There is a simple multi-choice questionaire and there are options to provide more detailed feedback. Just go here to provide feedback: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/greater-dublin-area-transport-strategy/

    Here's a copy of the main points I submitted to the NTA: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xy52h16l9udmcn/Personal%20Transport%20Strategy%20Objectives%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0
    Great points indeed. Glad to see DART to Naas on your list, absolutely criminal that it’s not already on the agenda. Does it have to be GDA focused? In mine I just focused on public transport and cycling issues in my local area (Naas). I thought that the issues and suggestions that I raised could help inform GDA-wide policy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    I've highlighted the need for greater discussion on scheme viability in my submission.

    We need a discussion on what our cities and towns will look like to support viable public transport under different levels of subvention. Are we willing to transform them through the Development Plan and LAP processes to achieve this? As a society are we willing to pay the subvention? We continuously re-hash old schemes without tackling these issues.

    Rail to Navan being an example. Current and planned land uses on the Navan Corridor do not support a rail service that is a attractive enough to get people out of cars, and off buses, without significant levels of subvention per passenger. Presumably the expectation is that services will be every 15mins or half hour; so what do we need to deliver on the planning side to support this? 3 bed semis in Navan's southern suburbs probably aren't the answer. Are people willing to build and live in apartments in Navan Town Centre for a decent rail service? If not, there won't be a rail service because the figures won't stack up (assuming the subvention will be unpalatable under a CBA) This is the crux of it.

    The NPF/RSES have their strengths and weaknesses. The main weakness is population/employment growth is assigned arbitrarily across regions without consideration to viability of sustainable transport provision needed to support growth. We're now trying to apply these principles retrospectively.


  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    I highlighted a different consideration for suburban schemes in cities. We're prone to understating the benefits of the schemes. For example, the positive outcome of 'build it and they will come'.

    The Green Luas line is a good example of this. Demand forecasts for the corridor don't fully capture the extent of consolidated development; where one or two houses are replaced by +25 apartments. So future demand is understated. We should do a review of the Green Corridor to understand how it's introduction has altered density along the corridor over time. This study could be used as a scenario based assessment on potential impact of new rail and luas corridors across the GDA and other cities.

    For example, Metro Southwest corridor doesn't have densities to support a metro now, but how many one off houses would be replaced by apartments if it was built? This type of growth doesn't generally feature in our DP and LAP processes but it can be considerable and influences the ultimate success of PT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭ Kellyconor1982


    There is some big developments in the south west corridor of the city. I can't remember where I read it, but they are expecting a gigantic population increase in that area with some high density developments. It may have been on one of the commuter pages. I'm a Northsider so probably a retweet I half looked at.

    Knocklyon is a very young and vibrant area and Ballycullen as well. Rathfarnham covers a big area, so a properly positioned station could take a lot of people....I often thought that Rathfarnham Shopping Centre could be a good place for a station. Near Templeogue as well. In a lot of cities, I think it works well having stations under shops.

    I saw something on twitter from possibly the Dublin Commuter Coalition, that they favour a SW line starting in Tallaght (think they suggested the square). It really makes sense imo. Tallaght is essentially a city and the current red line isn't enough. They seem to favour it going to Coolock. I noticed a lot of comments suggesting it should go out to Howth or link up with one of the Dart stations. I think this is a wonderful idea.

    I must say I am very hopeful about how things could progress in the city. Metrolink (1) being built even if it is essentially only a Metro North at the current time will be a game changer. It will be a great success and by the 2040s (I know) I would expect multiple lines the way a good sized and growing European city like Dublin should have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭ p_haugh



    I saw something on twitter from possibly the Dublin Commuter Coalition, that they favour a SW line starting in Tallaght (think they suggested the square). It really makes sense imo. Tallaght is essentially a city and the current red line isn't enough. They seem to favour it going to Coolock. I noticed a lot of comments suggesting it should go out to Howth or link up with one of the Dart stations. I think this is a wonderful idea.

    It would be a no-brainer to change the Howth branch of the dart to Metro standard and convert Howth Junction into a metro/rail interchange.
    Metro runs from Howth, goes underground just before Howth Junction (with Platforms below the main line), and continues through the city (via Coolock, Marino on the north
    & Knockloyn, Ballyroan etc on the south) before ending up in Tallaght. Doubt that would happen anytime soon though


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,198 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    p_haugh wrote: »
    It would be a no-brainer to change the Howth branch of the dart to Metro standard and convert Howth Junction into a metro/rail interchange.
    Metro runs from Howth, goes underground just before Howth Junction, and continues through the city (via Coolock, Marino on the north
    & Knockloyn, Ballyroan etc on the south) before ending up in Tallaght. Doubt that would happen anytime soon though

    That's actually a good idea, I'd never thought of that. That'd allow an increase in frequency on both the Dart line past Howth Junction, and more trains heading out to Howth.

    The only problem is that out past Howth Junction towards Howth doesn't really need such a massive increase in frequency, what with most of the catchment area being the sea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    The Howth Branch is likely to become a shuttle under DART+ - that I think is probably more than sufficient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    I made my submission. In addition to what is currently proposed/in planning I think the following should be added:

    - A public transport / cycling /walking bridge and road between Liffey Valley and the Carpenterstown Road. It's hard to believe that we have the M50, busiest road in the state and there are no parallel PT/cycling/walking options. If you want to travel between Blanch(100,000 people) and Clondalkin/Tallaght (250,000 people) you MUST drive. The areas are only separated by 1.5km. Busconnects will provide some PT option but sending buses onto the M50 is not ideal and there's nothing for walking and cycling unless you fancy a dangerous windy and steep cycle via Chapelizod or Lucan village.

    - DART Underground

    - Bus Connects Orbital Corridors, which I'm amazed have hardly been mentioned. Bus connects depends on orbital routes to function. I believe this should bus gates at Hanlon's Corner, Phibsboro, NCR/Dorset St, Maken St and Adelaide/Harcourt

    -A massive pedestrianisation / bike only campaign in the very centre of the City, focus should change from 'can we increase pedestrian space' to 'do cars really need to be here'. This should also include improving the streetscape, getting rid of poles, signage and clutter, invest more in pendant lighting.

    - A suburban street permeability scheme. Dublin is awash with stupid cul de sacs and residential streets that end at a brick wall, behind which is a bus stop, or another suburban street that leads to one. All barriers to permeability should be removed. 1.5km walks to access services that are 100m away as the crow flies need to end.

    - A New Tallaght-Beaumont Metro line, this closes any remaining gaps in the radial rail network and finally most of the urban area will be within the catchment of DART, Luas or Metro.


  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭ Heartbreak Hank


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I made my submission. In addition to what is currently proposed/in planning I think the following should be added:

    - A public transport / cycling /walking bridge and road between Liffey Valley and the Carpenterstown Road. It's hard to believe that we have the M50, busiest road in the state and there are no parallel PT/cycling/walking options. If you want to travel between Blanch(100,000 people) and Clondalkin/Tallaght (250,000 people) you MUST drive. The areas are only separated by 1.5km. Busconnects will provide some PT option but sending buses onto the M50 is not ideal and there's nothing for walking and cycling unless you fancy a dangerous windy and steep cycle via Chapelizod or Lucan village.

    - DART Underground

    - Bus Connects Orbital Corridors, which I'm amazed have hardly been mentioned. Bus connects depends on orbital routes to function. I believe this should bus gates at Hanlon's Corner, Phibsboro, NCR/Dorset St, Maken St and Adelaide/Harcourt

    -A massive pedestrianisation / bike only campaign in the very centre of the City, focus should change from 'can we increase pedestrian space' to 'do cars really need to be here'. This should also include improving the streetscape, getting rid of poles, signage and clutter, invest more in pendant lighting.

    - A suburban street permeability scheme. Dublin is awash with stupid cul de sacs and residential streets that end at a brick wall, behind which is a bus stop, or another suburban street that leads to one. All barriers to permeability should be removed. 1.5km walks to access services that are 100m away as the crow flies need to end.

    - A New Tallaght-Beaumont Metro line, this closes any remaining gaps in the radial rail network and finally most of the urban area will be within the catchment of DART, Luas or Metro.


    Yet again I wish I had seen this before I sent mine in. Great ideas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    In relation to cgcsb's submission, posted above, I think any new vision of the DART Underground project would have to include a proper appraisal of how the line would be used, and where the capacity is going to come from.

    When ABP approved the DART Underground project, way back when, it was very unclear where the trains necessary to make the project viable were going to come from. ABP never seemed to address this.

    Could Hazelhatch-Dublin city centre ever realistically reach 16 full trains per hour at peak times, the proposed throughput of the tunnel? Probably not, so there was at one stage a fairly nebulous idea to terminate trains at Heuston.

    A Tallaght-Clondalkin-Hazelhatch line corridor would be an obvious way to use at least some of this excess capacity.

    The Clondalkin and Tallaght numbers make sense for such a line - a bit underground, and perhaps a bit overground, but overall a rapid journey into the city (20 minutes?) for a very major chunk of the residents of Tallaght.

    The numbers for a metro to the southwest certainly add up in terms of densities and populations along a potential St. Stephen's Green-Camden St.-Rathmines-Rathgar-Terenure-Rathfarnham-Firhouse corridor (which I favour) - relative to the much lower figures, generally, along the Green Line south of the canal.

    But could such a metro line cope with a connection to the huge population of Tallaght if there were no other rapid connection between Tallaght and the city?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    I
    But could such a metro line cope with a connection to the huge population of Tallaght if there were no other rapid connection between Tallaght and the city?

    Right now there is only a slow (45 min) tram connection and some buses. Adding the metro would increase capacity. Assuming the same spec as planned Swords Metro that's 18,000 ppdph ontop of the existing red line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    In relation to cgcsb's submission, posted above, I think any new vision of the DART Underground project would have to include a proper appraisal of how the line would be used, and where the capacity is going to come from.

    When ABP approved the DART Underground project, way back when, it was very unclear where the trains necessary to make the project viable were going to come from. ABP never seemed to address this.

    Could Hazelhatch-Dublin city centre ever realistically reach 16 full trains per hour at peak times, the proposed throughput of the tunnel? Probably not, so there was at one stage a fairly nebulous idea to terminate trains at Heuston.

    A Tallaght-Clondalkin-Hazelhatch line corridor would be an obvious way to use at least some of this excess capacity.

    The Clondalkin and Tallaght numbers make sense for such a line - a bit underground, and perhaps a bit overground, but overall a rapid journey into the city (20 minutes?) for a very major chunk of the residents of Tallaght.

    The numbers for a metro to the southwest certainly add up in terms of densities and populations along a potential St. Stephen's Green-Camden St.-Rathmines-Rathgar-Terenure-Rathfarnham-Firhouse corridor (which I favour) - relative to the much lower figures, generally, along the Green Line south of the canal.

    But could such a metro line cope with a connection to the huge population of Tallaght if there were no other rapid connection between Tallaght and the city?

    Where would you put a heavy rail line from Fonthill to Tallaght, and wouldn't it needlessly complicate movements on the countries main rail link?

    The idea (mass transit from Tallaght to Clondalkin) definitely has merit, but surely the way to go would be actually building metro west and also linking Blanchardstown etc to the western main line? Fonthill could become a major interchange between metro and heavy rail/DART.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    Where would you put a heavy rail line from Fonthill to Tallaght, and wouldn't it needlessly complicate movements on the countries main rail link?

    The idea (mass transit from Tallaght to Clondalkin) definitely has merit, but surely the way to go would be actually building metro west and also linking Blanchardstown etc to the western main line? Fonthill could become a major interchange between metro and heavy rail/DART.

    My answer is, quite simply, that I don't know how such a line should be created.

    Such a line was envisaged as part of the plan back in the 1970's, and there is nowhere in County Dublin which comes close to the population of Tallaght, outside of the city centre.

    The big focus is now on Swords, and the metrolink, but in population terms this is paltry compared to Tallaght, and there is no question that the main employer in Swords is the Airport. It is probable that the most significant movement along the metrolink north of the Airport will be Swords-Airport movement, not Swords-City movement.

    Tallaght does not such an enormous neighbour, so Tallaght-City movement is going to be the key thing for any line serving that suburb.

    It is clear from many cities that lines into the city are the way to go. For an orbital route, you'd combine these.

    Thus, you'd have a line between Tallaght and Clondalkin and the Hazelhatch line, going into the heart of the city along a DART Underground line. You'd also have, say, a Clonsilla to Hazelhatch line going into the city along the samesaid DART Underground line.

    If you want to go between Tallaght and Clonsilla, you change at some point.

    If you are from Tallaght or Clonsilla, or ponts in-between, and you want to go to the city (as the largest number of passengers do) you just stay on your train until you get there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Right now there is only a slow (45 min) tram connection and some buses. Adding the metro would increase capacity. Assuming the same spec as planned Swords Metro that's 18,000 ppdph ontop of the existing red line.

    Yes, of course it would increase capacity. But would it be enough?

    We have a whole load of people on this board bleating that there isn't enough capacity on the southside Green Line, even though there is nothing on that route to in any way compare with the population of Tallaght.

    My point is that Tallaght, with its colossal population (second only to the city in County Dublin, and way ahead of Swords) needs to be served by something more than a southside metro

    If you only build a southwest metro, providing a 20-25 minute service to the city, there will be an immediate exodus from the Red Line with its 45-50 minute service. This will create many problems in inner suburbs, similar to but greater than, those being seen now on the Green Line.

    The solution to this potential metro problem would be, as you suggested above, DART Underground, and a spur from it.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    We have a whole load of people on this board bleating that there isn't enough capacity on the southside Green Line, even though there is nothing on that route to in any way compare with the population of Tallaght.

    Sigh... The advantage of the Green line is the massive amount of green fields all along the southern length of the line which will be prime real estate to develop into high density housing.

    Similar with Swords, it's population maybe less then Tallaght at the moment, but it is projected to grow to 100,000 in just 15 years, well past Tallaght. Swords and North Dublin are basically a sea of green fields, ripe for development.

    The problem Tallaght faces is that it's development potential is already largely tapped out. It can't really develop much further south due to the Dublin Mountains.

    Swords and the Green Line will house the next 100,000+ people and far surpass Tallaght.

    Now I'm not saying that Tallaght shouldn't be developed too, but your comparison with Swords and the Green Line is extremely lacking and simplistic.


Advertisement