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Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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    #32
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    secular modern societies reject this thinking.

    Yes, they do. And I'd go one further and say they wish to punish those who espouse it. Much to the delight of those who hate the light of God.
    Indeed, as these generations become our future I predict that true Christians will become more and more hated. And of course, the fact that much of the justice, mercy etc we experience in the west is founded on Christian principles, the further we sail without the rudder (God) the more the west will decay and degenerate. In light of such a future, it wont be hard to see a real persecution coming to Christians in the west.

    again, a right minded moral society would suggest that being forced to deny oneself for the promise of a rewarding afterlife is a hateful and cruel premise to put onto people who have no choice in who they are.

    while you might think you are preaching this "in love" all that is felt by those that you are preaching to is hate and cruelty. so perhaps you ought to re-look at what you are considering to be sinful.

    We ALL have our crosses to bear and our own struggles with the flesh.

    Matthew 16:24-26
    24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

    But we must persevere when the world returns to its baseness.

    Isaiah 5:20
    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    2 Timothy 3:1-5
    But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

    2 Peter 2:1
    But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

    2 Timothy 4:3
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.


    Christians have been suitably warned about how the world will perceive Godliness. But the world is not what we should follow.

    James 4:4
    You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.


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    #33
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    To be honest jimi you may as well be quoting winnie the pooh to me as quoting scripture..... As I hold both in the same regard.


    The vision I have for the future is very much at odds with yours. I see humanity developing into a more civilised, federal society as it turns its back on organised religion due to the contraversies, judgement, divisiveness, extremism and fundamentalism that organised religion leads to

    I see a rise in humanism and spiritualism in its place, based on a secular moralism. Eventually the moderates of the organised churches will be subsumed into this new humanism similarly to how Christianity subsumed the pagan religions of old.


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    #34
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    homer911 wrote: »
    If that was the case, then surely everyone would make correct moral decisions? It would be part of our DNA.

    It is part of our DNA.

    But everyone's innate understanding of what 'correct' means differs..

    Organised religions interpretations of correct and moral are just as disparate and confused. And how could they be anything but given that they are nothing more than a crowd funding platform with added mob control.


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    #35
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    JimiTime wrote: »
    This concept can cause some confusion among some IMO.
    It is not possible to engage in unrepentant sexual sin and be saved, and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin. But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course. We are called to be holy, not heterosexual. The fact that we all have the propensity to sin, we all have our own battles. But we are all called to do the same thing, and that is to come and die to the flesh, and be born again in the spirit. To repent of our sin and follow the messiah. Whether you are struggling with sexual sin, greed or whatever, your calling is the same. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
    Activists have successfully appealed to the latent hatred of God in the hearts of man, and their desire to follow the flesh. One cannot follow 2 masters afterall.

    I think its important to preach the truth in love, and that also means warning people as to the destructive nature of sin. Too often you have people more concerned with trying not to offend than telling the truth. In the words of the Proverbs, 'Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but enemies multiply kisses'.

    Don't mean to be offensive but I'm truly glad that I don't have this shoite going around inside my head


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    #36
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,973 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Why isn’t the thread called “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of intolerance”?

    I don’t think it’s Falau’s abundance of tolerance that has gotten him into trouble.


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    #37
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Don't mean to be offensive but I'm truly glad that I don't have this shoite going around inside my head

    None taken.

    1 Corinthians 1.18
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."


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    #38
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    To be honest jimi you may as well be quoting winnie the pooh to me as quoting scripture..... As I hold both in the same regard.

    I understand that. But I provided you some source material for Christian belief in spite of it. I don't believe the Quran is inspired by God, but I've enlightened myself for the sake of insight and understanding. It helps when talking to people to know where they are coming from, and it generally leads to a better and more productive conversation.
    The vision I have for the future is very much at odds with yours. I see humanity developing into a more civilised, federal society as it turns its back on organised religion due to the contraversies, judgement, divisiveness, extremism and fundamentalism that organised religion leads to

    I do believe that there will be a turning on religion, indeed, I think the process has already begun. But if you think humanity will be more civilised, I would suggest that history tells a different story. Its good to be hopeful, but I believe you will ultimately be disappointed if you think we are getting more civilised and less divisive.
    I see a rise in humanism and spiritualism in its place, based on a secular moralism. Eventually the moderates of the organised churches will be subsumed into this new humanism similarly to how Christianity subsumed the pagan religions of old.

    I agree that ambiguous concepts like 'humanism' and 'spirituality' will give many people who like to have a god of sorts, a sense of belonging in the world. It will allow them create it in their own image. It may even give a sense of purpose for a time. Essentially though, it will provide nothing of real substance. Much like the cultural 'Christianity' that exists through much of the west including our beautiful little island. Dead faith in many ways is worse than no faith in terms of Christianity. There's a reason Jesus had a special ire for hypocrisy.


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    #39
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Why isn’t the thread called “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of intolerance”?

    I don’t think it’s Falau’s abundance of tolerance that has gotten him into trouble.

    I assume its called, “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance”? due to the fact that while Folau has posted rather uncontroversial and commonly known doctrine about the concept of Christian salvation and what behaviour can lead to hell and what can save you, those who usually claim tolerance are doing their hardest to silence him, punish him, get him fired etc. It looks more like they are projecting their issues on others. I.E. THEY are actually the intolerant ones. Remember, we don't 'tolerate' people we agree with. The term 'tolerate', denotes our behaviour towards those we disagree with. Now as far as I'm aware, Folau hasn't called for the criminalisation of atheists, greedy people or those who have sex with members of the same sex. He has simply expressed a common Christian doctrine of the concept of sin and salvation. He has in fact called himself a sinner also. He disagrees with such people as to their behaviour being right or wrong.
    However, for expressing this rather common Christian doctrine, people have called for all sorts of punishment on him. THAT is intolerance. That is saying, I disagree with you and I'm going to have you punished for thinking and saying that.


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    #40
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    JimiTime wrote: »
    None taken.

    1 Corinthians 1.18
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

    Handy that they thought of writing that one down.. all bases covered


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    #41
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,973 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I assume its called, “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance”? due to the fact that while Folau has posted rather uncontroversial and commonly known doctrine about the concept of Christian salvation and what behaviour can lead to hell and what can save you, those who usually claim tolerance are doing their hardest to silence him, punish him, get him fired etc. It looks more like they are projecting their issues on others. I.E. THEY are actually the intolerant ones. Remember, we don't 'tolerate' people we agree with. The term 'tolerate', denotes our behaviour towards those we disagree with. Now as far as I'm aware, Folau hasn't called for the criminalisation of atheists, greedy people or those who have sex with members of the same sex. He has simply expressed a common Christian doctrine of the concept of sin and salvation. He has in fact called himself a sinner also. He disagrees with such people as to their behaviour being right or wrong.
    However, for expressing this rather common Christian doctrine, people have called for all sorts of punishment on him. THAT is intolerance. That is saying, I disagree with you and I'm going to have you punished for thinking and saying that.

    The Australian rugby union hasn’t criminalises his behaviour either. But they have chosen not to use his service as a player.

    So while falou hasn’t criminalised atheists, gays or the greedy, he has condemned them to hell which is presumably much worse (if you believe in hell) than simply criminalising their behaviour in this mortal world or choosing not to use someone’s professional service.

    I’m undecided on whether someone should be fired for voicing their racism or homophobia or sectarianism or whatever else they believe. If someone says racism or homophobia is part of their religion, I’m not sure whether they should be fired. It’s a complex issue. It might be enough that the rugby world does not agree with the Christian stance on gays, rugby is a game for everyone etc.

    So I might be more tolerant of racism
    Or homophobia or whatever as part of someone’s religion as long as the organisation is clear and sincere that they do not agree.

    Note. The word homophobia doesn’t seem apt in this case as it means an irrational fear of gays but it is the word in common use to describe anti gay sentiments.


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    #42
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.


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    #43
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    tritriagain wrote: »
    Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.

    No one got hurt?

    That's the problem, people did get hurt. Think about the gay teenager who idolises Australian rugby and is struggling with their sexuality. Teenagers are impressionable idiots and he's just been told by an icon that he's disgusting and wrong.

    Think about the idiots who agree with him and would feel justified if a high profile person was allowed to spout ****e and get away with it. The same idiots who nearly killed Gareth Thomas for being gay.


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    #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    tritriagain wrote: »
    Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.

    If you think no one got hurt then you absolutely have no grasp of the crux of the issue at all.

    Do you not think that a young man or woman who looks up to Israel folau, as one of the best rugby players in the world, isn't hurt when folau publishes words saying they are going to hell??


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    #45
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Much to the delight of those who hate the light of God.

    I often wonder about this light of God and why he or his followers are never able to shine it on the starving, the homeless, abuse victims, the weak etc etc!

    Why only shine this light on two(or maybe more) grown men who are naked and having hot loving sex with one another...if anything that’s a bit gay wouldn't you think,

    Christians fascination with two men naked in bed together having loving sex with one another, why is this more important than helping the poor, hungry and weak, is that not the Christian thing to do?


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    #46
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    frag420 wrote: »
    I often wonder about this light of God and why he or his followers are never able to shine it on the starving, the homeless, abuse victims, the weak etc etc!

    Why only shine this light on two(or maybe more) grown men who are naked and having hot loving sex with one another...if anything that’s a bit gay wouldn't you think,

    Christians fascination with two men naked in bed together having loving sex with one another, why is this more important than helping the poor, hungry and weak, is that not the Christian thing to do?

    It's those that have moved towards the acceptance of sin that are more focused on accepting homosexuality as normal behaviour than any of the other sins mentioned in the bible. God created man and woman to be with each other and rule over the animals on earth. The difference between good and bad in society has become distorted as the evil that oversea this world through the financial system, mainstream media, music and tv industry has being leading us on a path away from God towards sinful life's and accepting sinful behaviour.


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    #47
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    one world order wrote: »
    It's those that have moved towards the acceptance of sin that are more focused on accepting homosexuality as normal behaviour than any of the other sins mentioned in the bible. God created man and woman to be with each other and rule over the animals on earth. The difference between good and bad in society has become distorted as the evil that oversea this world through the financial system, mainstream media, music and tv industry has being leading us on a path away from God towards sinful life's and accepting sinful behaviour.

    Is he not powerful enough to change things for the good, it’s God after all!?


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    #48
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    frag420 wrote: »
    Is he not powerful enough to change things for the good, it’s God after all!?

    We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.


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    #49
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.

    But doesn't God make us sinful?

    You can't have a God who is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent at the same time. It's not possible in a world with such suffering.


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    #50
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    troyzer wrote: »
    But doesn't God make us sinful?

    You can't have a God who is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent at the same time. It's not possible in a world with such suffering.

    The Devil makes us sinful and gives us sinful thoughts. It's up to us to either act on those sinful thoughts or ask god for help with the sinful temptations.


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    #51
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Who made the devil?


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    #52
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    homer911 wrote: »
    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

    The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

    http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

    In relation to what Folau posted, what is he required to tolerate that justified him using his platform to tell everyone what he believes about gay people et al?

    Is it not just fine to have his own beliefs for himself or does he have to tell everyone how 'tolerant' he is if you want to repent?


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    #53
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    amcalester wrote: »
    Who made the devil?

    He was originally an angel in heaven that became jealous, angry and hated god. He tried to replace god but was defeated. God put him in hell along with one third of the angels that followed the devil. Now the devil has control over this world who operates in the shadows trying to pull people away from god.


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    #54
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    In relation to what Folau posted, what is he required to tolerate that justified him using his platform to tell everyone what he believes about gay people et al?


    Is it not just fine to have his own beliefs for himself or does he have to tell everyone how 'tolerant' he is if you want to repent?

    If you knew what lays ahead after death and the day of judgement we all face, don't you think it would be very selfish not to warn people about this?


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    #55
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    one world order wrote: »
    If you knew what lays ahead after death and the day of judgement we all face, don't you think it would be very selfish not to warn people about this?

    To foist your beliefs on everyone else?

    If people want to listen to that, then they can go to mass/church and engage in it.


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    #56
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    To foist your beliefs on everyone else?

    If people want to listen to that, then they can go to mass/church and engage in it.

    As one of god's children he has an obligation to warn the rest of us. He was correct to his platform for those that believe and don't believe. We will all be judged the same way and we need to be told the truth now to decide what way we choose to follow.


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    #57
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    one world order wrote: »
    As one of god's children he has an obligation to warn the rest of us. He was correct to his platform for those that believe and don't believe. We will all be judged the same way and we need to be told the truth now to decide what way we choose to follow.

    Jesus wept.


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    #58
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    one world order wrote: »
    As one of god's children he has an obligation to warn the rest of us. He was correct to his platform for those that believe and don't believe. We will all be judged the same way and we need to be told the truth now to decide what way we choose to follow.

    And therein, children, lies the whole fallacy on which organised religion is based.

    The irrational need on some to impose their beliefs on others, and their entrenched view that they have a god given right to do this.


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    #59
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    one world order wrote: »
    He was originally an angel in heaven that became jealous, angry and hated god. He tried to replace god but was defeated. God put him in hell along with one third of the angels that followed the devil. Now the devil has control over this world who operates in the shadows trying to pull people away from god.

    Well God made jealous and made him rebel. Because God is all powerful.

    Therefore, God is responsible for creating sin.

    If he's all powerful, then he's all responsible. You can't pawn it off on someone else.

    Which means God deliberately creates sin and suffering. Which means he can't be benevolent.

    There's a God triangle here of omnipotent, omniscient and benevolence.

    If God is benevolent and omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent or else he would intervene.

    If God is benevolent and omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient otherwise he would forsee evil and suffering and stop it.

    If God is omnipresent and omniscient, then he can't be benevolent. Because there is far too much suffering in the world.

    Take your pick. Your God is a bully and so is Israel Folau.


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    #60
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    I don't think Folau or Vunipola or whoever else is right but maybe they are? They are pretty arrogant to think their way is the only way but the same can be said about those who disbelieve?


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    #61
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    I don't think Folau or Vunipola or whoever else is right but maybe they are? They are pretty arrogant to think their way is the only way but the same can be said about those who disbelieve?

    People aren’t saying he can’t believe what he does, it’s using his platform to promote hatred that is the issue.

    Not only that, but if people say things that others find objectionable don’t be surprised when there are repercussions.


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