Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

lawred2

one world order wrote: »

We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.

You know those are just stories right?

amcalester

one world order wrote: »

We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.

lawred2 wrote: »

You know those are just stories right?

Think that was the plot of the Matrix 3.

Farawayhome

amcalester wrote: »

People aren’t saying he can’t believe what he does, it’s using his platform to promote hatred that is the issue.

Not only that, but if people say things that others find objectionable don’t be surprised when there are repercussions.

But what if he's right?

troyzer

Farawayhome wrote: »

But what if he's right?

What if the Scientologists are right?

sydthebeat

Farawayhome wrote: »

But what if he's right?

Aunties, uncles, bollix etc

Farawayhome

troyzer wrote: »

What if the Scientologists are right?

Yes, how can anyone be so arrogant and presumptuous to state their beliefs are the correct one's while everyone else's beliefs are not? I say this about any religion people follow.

Farawayhome

sydthebeat wrote: »

Aunties, uncles, bollix etc

They can say the same about your beliefs. Who knows for sure who's right?

amcalester

Farawayhome wrote: »

But what if he's right?

Then he’s on a sticky wicket himself for promoting hate, it’s not exactly christian behavior.

Doesn’t he have tattoos, pretty sure these are contrary to the old testament, off to hell with him.

Pretty sure he plays rugby on Sundays too.

one world order

troyzer wrote: »

Well God made jealous and made him rebel. Because God is all powerful.

Therefore, God is responsible for creating sin.

If he's all powerful, then he's all responsible. You can't pawn it off on someone else.

Which means God deliberately creates sin and suffering. Which means he can't be benevolent.

There's a God triangle here of omnipotent, omniscient and benevolence.

If God is benevolent and omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent or else he would intervene.

If God is benevolent and omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient otherwise he would forsee evil and suffering and stop it.

If God is omnipresent and omniscient, then he can't be benevolent. Because there is far too much suffering in the world.

Take your pick. Your God is a bully and so is Israel Folau.

God did not make the Devil become jealous. That was of the Devils own choosing. We all have good and bad in us, it's our decision to act on the thoughts that come into our head. Based on the day of judgement some of us will be saved and others won't based on our time here on earth.

one world order

amcalester wrote: »

People aren’t saying he can’t believe what he does, it’s using his platform to promote hatred that is the issue.

Not only that, but if people say things that others find objectionable don’t be surprised when there are repercussions.

You don't like what he has to say so you incorrectly call it hatred. What he is saying is hate the sin but love the sinner. He calls for those that are sinning to repent before it is too late. He is warning us all what awaits us all.

splinter65

robinph wrote: »

Being told that you cannot use hate speech against other groups of people and claim the excuse for doing so is your religion does not equate to you being persecuted. You have no rights to persecute others, but telling you that is still not persecuting you or denying you your rights.

One minor sporting celebrity states his belief that a fairly long list “of sinners” (including Catholics) are going to Hell if they don’t repent, he’s supported by one other minor sporting celebrity and you consider that “persecution”?
Amused, a bit scornful maybe but “persecuted”? Really?
I’m a catholic and I don’t feel persecuted by him at all. I do feel persecution on behalf of the hundreds of Catholics blown to bits in Sri Lanka on Easter. That is persecution.

troyzer

one world order wrote: »

God did not make the Devil become jealous. That was of the Devils own choosing. We all have good and bad in us, it's our decision to act on the thoughts that come into our head. Based on the day of judgement some of us will be saved and others won't based on our time here on earth.

If God is all powerful than he made the devil knowingly with a good and bad in him.

This is my point. If God is all powerful and all knowing then he's all responsible.

It's not our decision to act on our thoughts. How can we have free will when we are made a specific way by somebody who knows exactly what we're going to do?

God made Hitler knowing he was going to be responsible for the deaths of tens of millions.

one world order

Farawayhome wrote: »

They can say the same about your beliefs. Who knows for sure who's right?

Read the bible and you will find the answers. It was written over 1,600 years from the time of Abraham to the early Jewish christians. It warns us of the false prophets after Jesus came into this world and of the time in the future those that control this world give everyone the mark of the beast.

Shefwedfan

The only bit about the whole thing I find strange is that the Irish media and public want to vilify Vunipola, wanted him banned etc because he liked the original tweet

A certain rugby player in Ireland liked the tweet and this was never mentioned and don’t want to say it was covered it but I never seen a single mention about it

Call for the RFU to ban vunipola but nothing about the irfu having to make a statement.....

amcalester

one world order wrote: »

You don't like what he has to say so you incorrectly call it hatred. What he is saying is hate the sin but love the sinner. He calls for those that are sinning to repent before it is too late. He is warning us all what awaits us all.

Not me, I get a free pass because I climbed through a window of a church one time. All who do go to heaven.

As for his posts, they’re hate disguised as religion. There are many other religious people who manage to live day to day without spewing such hate.

robinph

splinter65 wrote: »

One minor sporting celebrity states his belief that a fairly long list “of sinners” (including Catholics) are going to Hell if they don’t repent, he’s supported by one other minor sporting celebrity and you consider that “persecution”?
Amused, a bit scornful maybe but “persecuted”? Really?
I’m a catholic and I don’t feel persecuted by him at all. I do feel persecution on behalf of the hundreds of Catholics blown to bits in Sri Lanka on Easter. That is persecution.

I think if you read what I said again, and what I was replying to, you'll see that was my point.

Edit: I see I didn't actually quote the previous JimiTime post I was responding to, but I figured is was a waste of internet bandwidth to do so.

Alf Veedersane

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The only bit about the whole thing I find strange is that the Irish media and public want to vilify Vunipola, wanted him banned etc because he liked the original tweet

A certain rugby player in Ireland liked the tweet and this was never mentioned and don’t want to say it was covered it but I never seen a single mention about it

Call for the RFU to ban vunipola but nothing about the irfu having to make a statement.....

They discussed Bundee Aki liking it on Newstalk last Sunday and there was news coverage in the national media of his apology and statement that he liked it 'mistakenly'.

one world order

troyzer wrote: »

If God is all powerful than he made the devil knowingly with a good and bad in him.

This is my point. If God is all powerful and all knowing then he's all responsible.

It's not our decision to act on our thoughts. How can we have free will when we are made a specific way by somebody who knows exactly what we're going to do?

God made Hitler knowing he was going to be responsible for the deaths of tens of millions.

We do have our own free will to act on our thoughts. It's not Gods responsibility to closely manage human behaviour on earth, otherwise we would not show our true self's. Our time on earth is limited but our time after death is unlimited. Hitler was evil and people mistakenly choose to follow him. There are bad people in this world today that pretend to be good, leading people away because of a lack faith for the message Jesus came into this world with.

troyzer

one world order wrote: »

We do have our own free will to act on our thoughts. It's not Gods responsibility to closely manage human behaviour on earth, otherwise we would not show our true self's. Our time on earth is limited but our time after death is unlimited. Hitler was evil and people mistakenly choose to follow him. There are bad people in this world today that pretend to be good, leading people away because of a lack faith for the message Jesus came into this world with.

Can you imagine if a parent's excuse for their kid doing something wrong was that it wasn't their responsibility? And not only that, but this parent knows and can do everything?

You are missing the point. We have no agency if God is all powerful and all knowing. Our entire lives are created and mapped out by God. Our choices are real but God knows what they're going to be.

Our true selves is what God created.

You seem to be arguing that God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Which is interesting.

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The only bit about the whole thing I find strange is that the Irish media and public want to vilify Vunipola, wanted him banned etc because he liked the original tweet

A certain rugby player in Ireland liked the tweet and this was never mentioned and don’t want to say it was covered it but I never seen a single mention about it

Call for the RFU to ban vunipola but nothing about the irfu having to make a statement.....

The difference is that Billy V double and tripled down in support of Folau, whereas that Irish player came out and apologised for liking the tweet, and explained that his god is all loving to everyone.

Big difference.

Also, beyond a fairly unregarded podcast I really didn't see much in Irish media calling for Vunipola to be banned. There certainly wasn't a widespread call for it

martingriff

homer911 wrote: »

If that was the case, then surely everyone would make correct moral decisions? It would be part of our DNA.

Poster is right you don't need a religion to tell you what is right or wrong. If that was the case all religious would be always right and have no controversy.

As for what was said. He is entitled to hold an opinion. However he is a high rate rugby star who when he speaks speaks as a rugby player for his country and club. They promote inclusion which is at odds to what he things and they warned him once and had no other choice.

You can hold his opinion if you like but don't get upset if other tell you there opinion and what the think of yours

As a Christian I follow what Jesus has called the 2 most important commandments. Love each other as I have loved you and love your neighbour as yourself

Farawayhome

amcalester wrote: »

Then he’s on a sticky wicket himself for promoting hate, it’s not exactly christian behavior.

Doesn’t he have tattoos, pretty sure these are contrary to the old testament, off to hell with him.

Pretty sure he plays rugby on Sundays too.

So maybe he's heading to hell as well.

one world order

troyzer wrote: »

Can you imagine if a parent's excuse for their kid doing something wrong was that it wasn't their responsibility? And not only that, but this parent knows and can do everything?

You are missing the point. We have no agency if God is all powerful and all knowing. Our entire lives are created and mapped out by God. Our choices are real but God knows what they're going to be.

Our true selves is what God created.

You seem to be arguing that God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Which is interesting.

You are trying to say no matter what bad choices we make, it is Gods fault as he knew in advance. We are responsible for our own actions, not God.

troyzer

one world order wrote: »

You are trying to say no matter what bad choices we make, it is Gods fault as he knew in advance. We are responsible for our own actions, not God.

Yes. Of course it's God's fault.

Because not only did he know we were going to make those choices, he made them for us by making us a certain way.

I'm fairly overweight, I eat too much. I struggle with anxiety related binge eating. God made me that way. That doesn't absolve me of my failings but my compulsions and character flaws were created by him which lead to me making poor decisions.

You cannot be all powerful without also being all responsible. We hold parents to a higher standard than you hold God.

amcalester

Farawayhome wrote: »

So maybe he's heading to hell as well.

Maybe, if it exists

I just find it interesting that he follows the good books teachings on homosexuality but not tattoos or respecting the sabbath.

It leads me to question his motives and how honest he is being.

Farawayhome

amcalester wrote: »

Maybe, if it exists

I just find it interesting that he follows the good books teachings on homosexuality but not tattoos or respecting the sabbath.

It leads me to question his motives and how honest he is being.

Maybe he just hates gays?

splinter65

Farawayhome wrote: »

Maybe he just hates gays?

If he hated gay people then he’d just tweet “Dyou know who I hate? Gay people!”. He doesn’t care if people don’t like his opinions, as far as I can see.

Farawayhome

splinter65 wrote: »

If he hated gay people then he’d just tweet “Dyou know who I hate? Gay people!”. He doesn’t care if people don’t like his opinions, as far as I can see.

Maybe he thought he could get away with it by hiding behind his religion?

one world order

troyzer wrote: »

Yes. Of course it's God's fault.

Because not only did he know we were going to make those choices, he made them for us by making us a certain way.

I'm fairly overweight, I eat too much. I struggle with anxiety related binge eating. God made me that way. That doesn't absolve me of my failings but my compulsions and character flaws were created by him which lead to me making poor decisions.

You cannot be all powerful without also being all responsible. We hold parents to a higher standard than you hold God.

Have you ever prayed to God asking for motivation to get regular exercise and cut out the junk food. For anxiety why don't you repeat this quote when you feel it "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". We all have weaknesses but by putting our trust in Jesus it can give us the motivation and inner peace to change our mindset. The most Christian of people sin as well and have personal struggles. Life itself is a journey and struggle for everyone. Moving away from sin is a constant battle. Jesus came into this world to help us, it is why we should call out to him when going through life's struggles.

troyzer

one world order wrote: »

Have you ever prayed to God asking for motivation to get regular exercise and cut out the junk food. For anxiety why don't you repeat this quote when you feel it "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". We all have weaknesses but by putting our trust in Jesus it can give us the motivation and inner peace to change our mindset. The most Christian of people sin as well and have personal struggles. Life itself is a journey and struggle for everyone. Moving away from sin is a constant battle. Jesus came into this world to help us, it is why we should call out to him when going through life's struggles.

Why would I pray to him? I don't believe in God.

God making my own mental health conditional on subjugation is petty. Especially when I know some really horrible people who have no such issues.

Life is only a struggle because God makes it a struggle. Jesus only came to help us because he (as God) made us require help.

It's like the white Europeans "civilising" the savage.