Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Quackster · 06-01-2020 2:03pm

Greaney wrote: »

Yes. And sticking with the theme of the thread, I simply don't see bicycles as the most appropriate form of transport on the Western Rail Corridor.

Fortunately the region is served by an extensive road network which could support a much improved bus service that would benefit many more people at a fraction of the cost of reopening the WRC.

Muckyboots · 06-01-2020 2:20pm

Greaney wrote: »

Yes, and that's why I simply don't see bicycles as the most appropriate form of transport on the Western Rail Corridor.

You've got a minority view there.

Greaney · 06-01-2020 2:39pm

Quackster wrote: »

Fortunately the region is served by an extensive road network which could support a much improved bus service that would benefit many more people at a fraction of the cost of reopening the WRC.

And that's where we disagree.

We've gone over the issue of buses v rail ad-nauseum on this thread before and neither of us are for turning I'd day.

eastwest · 06-01-2020 3:34pm

Greaney wrote: »

And that's where we disagree.

We've gone over the issue of buses v rail ad-nauseum on this thread before and neither of us are for turning I'd day.

It's not about what any of us would like to see, in an ideal world, it's about what is realistically achievable for the asset.
Given that the dogs in the street know what conclusions the rail review came to, there is no railway coming any time soon, or not in most of our lifetimes at any rate.
A greenway on the other hand is achievable, can attract available funding, and has the support of most people with the exception of a few politicians who rely on the myth of the railway as an an election promise.
This was never about railway versus greenway, it is about what can be achieved. According to the rail review and several other similar reviews in the past, rail is not a viable option. If it was, do you think they'd be hiding the report from the people of Galway?

Greaney · 06-01-2020 4:40pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

You've got a minority view there.

Don't be too sure about that. The support for rail has always been solid. Furthermore, the greenway campaing on the WRC got very shouty there for a while. People are not into unnessecary conflict, on-line or off (except me apparently:rolleyes:). The numbers supporting rail are significant, and don't just live in Athenry & Tuam. There's folk campaigning from Derry to Cork.

eastwest wrote: »

It's not about what any of us would like to see, in an ideal world, it's about what is realistically achievable for the asset.
Given that the dogs in the street know what conclusions the rail review came to, there is no railway coming any time soon, or not in most of our lifetimes at any rate.
A greenway on the other hand is achievable, can attract available funding, and has the support of most people with the exception of a few politicians who rely on the myth of the railway as an an election promise.
This was never about railway versus greenway, it is about what can be achieved. According to the rail review and several other similar reviews in the past, rail is not a viable option. If it was, do you think they'd be hiding the report from the people of Galway?

According to the rail review of 2012 which is the last one available to the public, the Tuam to Athenry section of the western rail corridor was the most viable in the country and the people were so encouraged they began to strategize for it.

The residents of Ballyglunin were part of that strategy and have been working on restoring the station. They got funding just recently.

To get anything done in Ireland, you've to plug away at it for years, trust me, I know. I'm surprised folk on this forum think it'll be easier to get a greenway on the track. This is Irish rail we're talking about. It not only won't be easier to get a greenway on it, it won't be given up by Iarnrod Eireann. The Velo is the thing we should be concentrating on. Two of them pass through Galway!! That's huge, though some would like you not to think so.... Indeed the issue has been made so political, I've personally been very spooked from involving a politician in any of our projects.
https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rules-out-cpos-for-future-greenway-routes/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/objections-put-brakes-on-cycleway-from-dublin-to-galway-1.2411393
https://connachttribune.ie/minister-cannon-comes-under-fire-for-supporting-greenway-000/
https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/102951/greenway-does-not-threaten-future-rail-services-says-cannon

mayo.mick · 06-01-2020 5:38pm

Greaney wrote: »

Don't be too sure about that. The support for rail has always been solid. Furthermore, the greenway campaing on the WRC got very shouty there for a while. People are not into unnessecary conflict, on-line or off (except me apparently:rolleyes:). The numbers supporting rail are significant, and don't just live in Athenry & Tuam. There's folk campaigning from Derry to Cork.

According to the rail review of 2012 which is the last one available to the public, the Tuam to Athenry section of the western rail corridor was the most viable in the country and the people were so encouraged they began to strategize for it.

The residents of Ballyglunin were part of that strategy and have been working on restoring the station. They got funding just recently.

To get anything done in Ireland, you've to plug away at it for years, trust me, I know. I'm surprised folk on this forum think it'll be easier to get a greenway on the track. This is Irish rail we're talking about. It not only won't be easier to get a greenway on it, it won't be given up by Iarnrod Eireann. The Velo is the thing we should be concentrating on. Two of them pass through Galway!! That's huge, though some would like you not to think so.... Indeed the issue has been made so political, I've personally been very spooked from involving a politician in any of our projects.
https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rules-out-cpos-for-future-greenway-routes/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/objections-put-brakes-on-cycleway-from-dublin-to-galway-1.2411393
https://connachttribune.ie/minister-cannon-comes-under-fire-for-supporting-greenway-000/
https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/102951/greenway-does-not-threaten-future-rail-services-says-cannon

Why arn't they all out on the streets and above at the Dáil then, demanding that this latest "rail review" be published? :rolleyes:

serfboard · 06-01-2020 5:58pm

Greaney wrote: »

The residents of Ballyglunin were part of that strategy and have been working on restoring the station. They got funding just recently.

The Ballyglunin station will make for a great cafe when the Greenway comes.

Anyone in Ballyglunin who a) thinks that a railway is coming and b) thinks that the railway is going to stop in their station, (when it doesn't even stop at the much bigger hamlet of Crusheen), is beyond deluded.

For reference, I present the metropolis surrounding Ballyglunin station ... :rolleyes:

Greaney · 07-01-2020 10:07am

mayo.mick wrote: »

Why arn't they all out on the streets and above at the Dáil then, demanding that this latest "rail review" be published? :rolleyes:

I don't know if from the eye roll you actually want to know the answer. It came up at the Sinn Féin meeting, which by the way, was attended by some pretty seasoned community activists, and you could sense many of us thought it wasn't that effective. So, in short...

It's a bad strategy.

I've faffed about going into detail about why, but the truth is, it's grant season and I've got to get stuck in on applications for things that we have to do in our community. I know the rail review is coming, and when it does.... I'll read it. I'm not expecting the earth to move.... if the government wants the WRC to happen soon, it'll be amazingly positive. If they want a greenway, it'll be damning, and if they want to park it.... it will be neither positive or negative.

ezstreet5 · 09-01-2020 1:02am

Greaney wrote: »

if the government wants the WRC to happen soon, it'll be amazingly positive. If they want a greenway, it'll be damning, and if they want to park it.... it will be neither positive or negative.

A bit cynical, Greaney. Rather, I suspect the 'rail report' will be perfectly vague and will be readable in support of either a greenway or reactivation or a railway. And the government will be able to select à la carte.

What is darkened, however, is the bankrupt effort to force the report's release via multiplicative FOI requests. Do you think you can bully yourselves a greenway without a backfire? These seem to be the final throes of a failed effort.

westtip · 09-01-2020 6:40am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

A bit cynical, Greaney. Rather, I suspect the 'rail report' will be perfectly vague and will be readable in support of either a greenway or reactivation or a railway. And the government will be able to select à la carte.

What is darkened, however, is the bankrupt effort to force the report's release via multiplicative FOI requests. Do you think you can bully yourselves a greenway without a backfire? These seem to be the final throes of a failed effort.

Agreed that the final version of the rail report will be vague, it is the version delivered to the Department that the multiple FOI requests and multiple PQs are asking for, not the redacted report certain quarters want to put out there.
You think it darkens a campaign and makes for a bankrupt effort for multitudes of people (voters) to engage in the process of democracy to simply ask for what they paid for?

Any FOI becomes a matter of record. Any person is entitled to submit an FOI and any TD is entitled to engage within the system to make a PQ, all these actions are recorded and in the public domain and to flippantly dismiss them as bankrupt is to ignore the rights we have in a democracy.

People have been stirred into action who normally simply don't engage, Minister Ross by the way has also received PQs asking for the railway report from ardent railway supporters, like Lisa Chambers and Eamon O'Cuiv, just go look at the record in fact here is the link for you, why not just publish it and put us all at ease, at this stage I just want to see the dam report, who knows it might recommend the immediate construction of the railway, in which case get on with it, but please don't patronise people who have actually got involved in the process by flippantly saying their efforts are a bankrupt effort; you do yourself a disservice.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=western%20rail%20corridor&sort=date&originalFilter=%2Fen%2Fdebates%2Fquestions%2F%3FdatePeriod%3Dall%26questionType%3Dall%26resultsPerPage%3D20%26viewBy%3Dday&questionType=all&searchType=questions&datePeriod=all

westtip · 09-01-2020 7:10am

wonder88 wrote: »

The Galway Limerick route was fairly busy last Saturday, and two weeks ago, from my experience. The Oranmore station seems to be a success as well. The idea that there is no demand for rail in Ireland and car/road is what we want, may not be correct despite what Colm McCarthy etc says.

You are right Oranmore is doing well as is Athenry-Galway, but they are not part of the Western Rail Corridor, they are part of the pre existing Dublin Galway line, yes there is clearly a case to develop double tracking on the Athenry Galway section perhaps - to enable better local services into Galway. The figures touted by West on Track about the huge success of the Western Rail Corridor need to be examined more closely, thankfully they were and presented in detail to EY consulting. You may recall in 2019 the top line figures on usage of the WRC were touted out in the public domain claiming they proved the huge success of the line, with 387,000 passengers recorded on the route in 2018, it was a complete myth, of the 387,000 passenger journies 217,000 were passengers only using the Athenry/Galway and Oranmore/Galway route, they were short journey Galway commuters using the pre-existing Dublin/Galway main line. The top line figures touted by West on Track did not draw attention to this fact, take a look at the real states, EY did because they had them presented to them in black and white, they came by the way directly from Irish Rail who were asked to release them.

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 12:27pm

If anyone is wasting their money on FOI requests; don’t bother.

An election is imminent and I would hazard a guess that the reason the report isn’t issued yet is down to simple politics.

If the report damns the railway and recommends a greenway that would be seen as giving an advantage to Ciaran Cannon.

If the report supports the clear improvements to public transport then it would be seen as giving an advantage to Sean Canney.

If the report kicks the proverbial can down the road again it will benefit no one and therefore not political.

No doubt all will be revealed at some point, I’d advise the Greenway disciples to save their hard earned cash unless of course some road based foundation is giving them the funds to pay for all this...

Muckyboots · 09-01-2020 12:44pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

If anyone is wasting their money on FOI requests; don’t bother.

An election is imminent and I would hazard a guess that the reason the report isn’t issued yet is down to simple politics.

If the report damns the railway and recommends a greenway that would be seen as giving an advantage to Ciaran Cannon.

If the report supports the clear improvements to public transport then it would be seen as giving an advantage to Sean Canney.

If the report kicks the proverbial can down the road again it will benefit no one and therefore not political.

No doubt all will be revealed at some point, I’d advise the Greenway disciples to save their hard earned cash unless of course some road based foundation is giving them the funds to pay for all this...

I agree.
Signed: Greenway disciple advocate.

eastwest · 09-01-2020 12:59pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

I agree.
Signed: Greenway disciple advocate.

Two things seem very clear.
1. The rail report finds no case for a railway. If it did, it would definitely be in the public domain by now.
2. We won't see it until after the election. Sean Canney needs the railway myth for his campaign, given that he hasn't much else to offer. He won't allow it to be released. He will have the tacit support of an Taoiseach in this; although Varadkar has long ago confirmed that the mistakes of phase one won't be repeated, he will adopt the 'no news is good news' approach to the region in an attempt to keep as many voters on side as possible.

09-01-2020 1:43pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

If anyone is wasting their money on FOI requests; don’t bother.

An election is imminent and I would hazard a guess that the reason the report isn’t issued yet is down to simple politics.

If the report damns the railway and recommends a greenway that would be seen as giving an advantage to Ciaran Cannon.

If the report supports the clear improvements to public transport then it would be seen as giving an advantage to Sean Canney.

If the report kicks the proverbial can down the road again it will benefit no one and therefore not political.

No doubt all will be revealed at some point, I’d advise the Greenway disciples to save their hard earned cash unless of course some road based foundation is giving them the funds to pay for all this...

Fyi, any FOI requests for this report would be free

https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/is-there-a-fee/

TCDStudent1 · 09-01-2020 2:10pm

westtip wrote: »

You are right Oranmore is doing well as is Athenry-Galway, but they are not part of the Western Rail Corridor, they are part of the pre existing Dublin Galway line, yes there is clearly a case to develop double tracking on the Athenry Galway section perhaps - to enable better local services into Galway. The figures touted by West on Track about the huge success of the Western Rail Corridor need to be examined more closely, thankfully they were and presented in detail to EY consulting. You may recall in 2019 the top line figures on usage of the WRC were touted out in the public domain claiming they proved the huge success of the line, with 387,000 passengers recorded on the route in 2018, it was a complete myth, of the 387,000 passenger journies 217,000 were passengers only using the Athenry/Galway and Oranmore/Galway route, they were short journey Galway commuters using the pre-existing Dublin/Galway main line. The top line figures touted by West on Track did not draw attention to this fact, take a look at the real states, EY did because they had them presented to them in black and white, they came by the way directly from Irish Rail who were asked to release them.

According to that attached file, 137,784 was the number of passengers between Ennis & Athenry in 2018. What figure would this need to be for the line to be considered sustainable?

eastwest · 09-01-2020 2:12pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fyi, any FOI requests for this report would be free

https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/is-there-a-fee/

That's what they want you to believe!
It's all a big conspiracy. ;-)

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 2:21pm

eastwest wrote: »

That's what they want you to believe!
It's all a big conspiracy. ;-)

It only takes two people to make a conspiracy you know

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 2:23pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

According to that attached file, 137,784 was the number of passengers between Ennis & Athenry in 2018. What figure would this need to be for the line to be considered sustainable?

It doesn’t matter if the trains are packed to the brim, the anti rail campaigners will always make ever more incredible claims about how “unsustainable” the line is.

09-01-2020 2:35pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

It doesn’t matter if the trains are packed to the brim, the anti rail campaigners will always make ever more incredible claims about how “unsustainable” the line is.

No need, the massive subvention due to low usage is all that is needed

Just to be clear, I'm not anti-rail. I'm anti-waste.

For example, I'm all for double tracking the full Galway to Dublin line, increasing capacity at Athenry and Oranmore P&R's, etc

But a line between 2 small towns that will be slower than driving, cost more than getting the bus and waste an insane amount of cash to both get it up and running and then to keep it running...... Yeah, sorry, never going to support that

Hotblack Desiato · 09-01-2020 2:53pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

It only takes two people to make a conspiracy you know

One to lie, and one to listen.

eastwest · 09-01-2020 3:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No need, the massive subvention due to low usage is all that is needed

Just to be clear, I'm not anti-rail. I'm anti-waste.

For example, I'm all for double tracking the full Galway to Dublin line, increasing capacity at Athenry and Oranmore P&R's, etc

But a line between 2 small towns that will be slower than driving, cost more than getting the bus and waste an insane amount of cash to both get it up and running and then to keep it running...... Yeah, sorry, never going to support that

But but but but
They have the LUAS up in Dublin, the feckers

serfboard · 09-01-2020 3:39pm

westtip wrote: »

The figures ... need to be examined more closely, thankfully they were and presented in detail to EY consulting.

From the figures you quoted we get 137,784 passengers using the Ennis-Athenry section.

137,784 divided by 364 and divided by eight trains a day (minimum Sunday service) = 47 passengers per train. Less than a busful.

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 3:40pm

eastwest wrote: »

But but but but
They have the LUAS up in Dublin, the feckers

Oh ho ho ho. I’d love to know why you come on here and trot out the same catch phrases year after year.

I’ve yet to hear from you a convincing argument as to why we should destroy public transport at a time when the rest of the world is switching to rail away from air and road.

end of the road · 09-01-2020 3:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No need, the massive subvention due to low usage is all that is needed

Just to be clear, I'm not anti-rail. I'm anti-waste.

For example, I'm all for double tracking the full Galway to Dublin line, increasing capacity at Athenry and Oranmore P&R's, etc

But a line between 2 small towns that will be slower than driving, cost more than getting the bus and waste an insane amount of cash to both get it up and running and then to keep it running...... Yeah, sorry, never going to support that

the line is well used now and is growing.
the subvention is tiny compared to the costs of road transport which are insane in this country due to the amount of dependence on it and the amount of roads and our massive over-obsession of promoting roads over everything else.
galway and limerick are cities, galway is choked with traffic and road transport will never be able to cater to all of the demand, hence more railbased transport is needed.

ezstreet5 · 09-01-2020 3:47pm

westtip wrote: »

You think it darkens a campaign and makes for a bankrupt effort for multitudes of people (voters) to engage in the process of democracy to simply ask for what they paid for?

OK, forgive my barbs. The were unnecessary, but yes, I do think that spamming DTTAS with FOIA requests is futile. A reasonable person would send just one, and then pursue their administrative and judicial remedies if they believed they were wrongfully refused information under the Act.

I also think that spamming the NWRA with duplicate submissions on the RSES is equally futile. Spamming Mayo Council regarding the velorail project is both futile and disingenuous.

I think a surefire way to ensure that something doesn’t change is to start a petition on change.org.

And do you remember the magic “feasibility study?” Someone had convinced themselves (and many others) that all we needed to access our share of the €42 million of government greenway money was some sort of an undefined feasibility study. Councilors were spammed regarding their vote for such a study, and there was a kerfuffle over a second vote for a wider-scoped study. If anyone would have taken 5 minutes to read the funding guidelines, they would have seen that funding was restricted to actual projects with full planning permission (or soon-to-be issued permission). But we couldn’t turn down an opportunity to get political, personal, and nasty. After all, anyone who even questions the notion that bicycle tourism will transform East Galway and Mayo is not only delusional, but probably corrupt with their own agenda.

That last bit of ugliness can be traced back to a certain junior minister, who while supporting greenways on the surface, has probably done more to deprive the region of the same by promising landowners that no CPOs would be issued for the Galway to Athlone stretch. So while that project is delayed, the idea of a greenway on the WRC is reduced to an unconnected, dangling segment that nobody will want to build.

galwaytt · 09-01-2020 3:59pm

serfboard wrote: »

While no-one could disagree with that, until we as a nation stop scattering one-off houses for city workers all over the countryside, we won't wake up to anything.

Sorry, that's a red herring. The volume of 1-off houses isn't the problem.

If you think that's the problem, then explain why those already in cities like Dublin & Galway can't get around them or out of them.

And in Galway at least, most of the jobs are in the suburbs, not the city, so even if they ran a train into Ceannt every 10 minutes it wouldn't be worth a shine as there is no way to get from Ceannt to Ballybrit/Parkmore etc etc., And it does nothing to help those on the West of the City to get to the East of the city....and back again.

My SO has the opposite problem: wants to get the train but can't, as Irish Rail thinks we're in the 50's and no-one starts work 'til 9 or something......there needs to be a train arriving in Ceannt at 07:40 latest.

eastwest · 09-01-2020 4:07pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Oh ho ho ho. I’d love to know why you come on here and trot out the same catch phrases year after year.

I’ve yet to hear from you a convincing argument as to why we should destroy public transport at a time when the rest of the world is switching to rail away from air and road.

Simple answer to that.
Because they have the LUAS up in Dublin, the feckers.

serfboard · 09-01-2020 4:21pm

galwaytt wrote: »

The volume of 1-off houses isn't the problem.

If you think that's the problem, then explain why those already in cities like Dublin & Galway can't get around them or out of them.

Because there is too much traffic caused by people driving into and around the city, due to insufficient provision of park n' rides, bus lanes, bus services and cycling infrastructure.

galwaytt wrote: »

And in Galway at least, most of the jobs are in the suburbs, not the city, so even if they ran a train into Ceannt every 10 minutes it wouldn't be worth a shine as there is no way to get from Ceannt to Ballybrit/Parkmore etc etc., And it does nothing to help those on the West of the City to get to the East of the city....and back again.

Thank you for making the points I have made many, many times.

galwaytt wrote: »

My SO has the opposite problem: wants to get the train but can't, as Irish Rail thinks we're in the 50's and no-one starts work 'til 9 or something......there needs to be a train arriving in Ceannt at 07:40 latest.

Just as there is a late-night commuter service to Athlone, which leaves the station at 22:15 and serves Oranmore, Athenry, Attymon, Woodlawn and Ballinasloe, there may indeed be a need to have an early morning service going the other way.

However there are plenty of bus services that arrive in the city centre before 8AM.

Muckyboots · 09-01-2020 4:42pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

OK, forgive my barbs. The were unnecessary, but yes, I do think that spamming DTTAS with FOIA requests is futile. A reasonable person would send just one, and then pursue their administrative and judicial remedies if they believed they were wrongfully refused information under the Act.

I also think that spamming the NWRA with duplicate submissions on the RSES is equally futile. Spamming Mayo Council regarding the velorail project is both futile and disingenuous.

I think a surefire way to ensure that something doesn’t change is to start a petition on change.org.

And do you remember the magic “feasibility study?” Someone had convinced themselves (and many others) that all we needed to access our share of the €42 million of government greenway money was some sort of an undefined feasibility study. Councilors were spammed regarding their vote for such a study, and there was a kerfuffle over a second vote for a wider-scoped study. If anyone would have taken 5 minutes to read the funding guidelines, they would have seen that funding was restricted to actual projects with full planning permission (or soon-to-be issued permission). But we couldn’t turn down an opportunity to get political, personal, and nasty. After all, anyone who even questions the notion that bicycle tourism will transform East Galway and Mayo is not only delusional, but probably corrupt with their own agenda.

That last bit of ugliness can be traced back to a certain junior minister, who while supporting greenways on the surface, has probably done more to deprive the region of the same by promising landowners that no CPOs would be issued for the Galway to Athlone stretch. So while that project is delayed, the idea of a greenway on the WRC is reduced to an unconnected, dangling segment that nobody will want to build.

I agree on the spamming, but you are wrong about everything else, including the feasibility study, which was an attempt to position the Council on the issue and not a real attempt to draw down funds. It was scuppered with a cute-hoor contrived diluted proposal led by railway promotors with nothing but contempt for the greenway campaign. They got called out in local media. The newspaper reporters were in the chamber and saw what happened. Some of the orchestrators subsequently lost their council seats. Nothing to do with campaigning or spin. But...... The west will get neither greenway or railway while there is public squabbling going on between the two groups. A bit of bants here is fine, but the issue has become toxic and nasty (I think we agree on that too). This isn't Youghal or New Ross where the trail v rail arguments were easily won politically. Nothing will be achieved while the whiff of cordite still abounds- especially when it's in the county council chambers.

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 5:13pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

I agree on the spamming, but you are wrong about everything else, including the feasibility study, which was an attempt to position the Council on the issue and not a real attempt to draw down funds. It was scuppered with a cute-hoor contrived diluted proposal led by railway promotors with nothing but contempt for the greenway campaign. They got called out in local media. The newspaper reporters were in the chamber and saw what happened. Some of the orchestrators subsequently lost their council seats. Nothing to do with campaigning or spin. But...... The west will get neither greenway or railway while there is public squabbling going on between the two groups. A bit of bants here is fine, but the issue has become toxic and nasty (I think we agree on that too). This isn't Youghal or New Ross where the trail v rail arguments were easily won politically. Nothing will be achieved while the whiff of cordite still abounds- especially when it's in the county council chambers.

When you say “nothing but contempt for the greenway campaign” perhaps you should look at why that is so. It’s the personal attacks, the fake Facebook pages, the constant sniping and poison pen letters to elected councillors...

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 5:14pm

eastwest wrote: »

Simple answer to that.
Because they have the LUAS up in Dublin, the feckers.

Olivia O’Leary sends her love.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-01-2020 5:36pm

serfboard wrote: »

Because there is too much traffic caused by people driving into and around the city, due to insufficient provision of park n' rides, bus lanes, bus services and cycling infrastructure.

And, of course, no metro. Work on that should've started 50 years ago.

Muckyboots · 09-01-2020 5:42pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

When you say “nothing but contempt for the greenway campaign” perhaps you should look at why that is so. It’s the personal attacks, the fake Facebook pages, the constant sniping and poison pen letters to elected councillors...

Yes, there was an element of that in it but some of them were/are just cute hoor politicians who never get called out on their decisions and don't like it when they do.

galwaytt · 09-01-2020 6:16pm

serfboard wrote: »

Because there is too much traffic caused by people driving into and around the city, due to insufficient provision of park n' rides, bus lanes, bus services and cycling infrastructure.

You are partially correct, but a huge amount of the traffic is actually Galway City traffic (esp Western suburbs). There is literally no way of crossing the town that will not meet or cause, traffic, including buses. There would need to a complete free run all the way from Barna to Parkmore unhindered, for that to change. The Park & Ride won't work without it: witness the one at Christmas - all goes well till the Bus Lane ends, and you're part of the problem, not the solution.
I don't believe cycling is going to be a major component of releasing that much traffic, some, maybe, but not the majority. Too far, too wet, too many hills, work facilities etc. Contrary to what people think, the majority of employees don't work in the big setups with the facilities to cope.

serfboard wrote: »

Thank you for making the points I have made many, many times.

I've said as much many times myself, including submissions to IR and Barry Kenny more than once, so no issue there at all.

serfboard wrote: »

Just as there is a late-night commuter service to Athlone, which leaves the station at 22:15 and serves Oranmore, Athenry, Attymon, Woodlawn and Ballinasloe, there may indeed be a need to have an early morning service going the other way.

There absolutely does. Even retail is starting staff from 06:00 now to work within allowed delivery times for access to the City Centre by trucks etc.

serfboard wrote: »

However there are plenty of bus services that arrive in the city centre before 8AM.

You're right, there are, and SO has changed from car to bus since beginning of December. Only 1 flaw: it gets stuck in the same traffic on the way home, so it's still 60+ minutes to get home.....at least she's can kind of relax on a bus...

westtip · 09-01-2020 7:00pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

OK, forgive my barbs. The were unnecessary, but yes, I do think that spamming DTTAS with FOIA requests is futile. A reasonable person would send just one, and then pursue their administrative and judicial remedies if they believed they were wrongfully refused information under the Act.

I also think that spamming the NWRA with duplicate submissions on the RSES is equally futile. Spamming Mayo Council regarding the velorail project is both futile and disingenuous.

.

Do you know what I detect a sense of envy that the Greenway campaign is able to motivate thousands of people to sign petitions, and motivate people who don't usually get involved to fire off submissions, whatever you say each person who sends in a submission feels they are belonging and acting as part of group, the greenway group got 3,000 people to march on the streets of Tuam perhaps it would have been better if just one person turned up the county hall with reasoned argument, the whole point about a campaign is involving people getting people to take action, personally I know Brendan Quinn rather well (sic) and I know he just cannot believe how many people have taken action on an issue probably for the first time in their lives due to his persuasive arguments. I just don' t think WOT can garner a fraction of the people to take action be it sending in multitudes of submissions or marching on the street, and to win a campaign you have to be noticed and guess what its the squeaky bike that tends to get the oil.

serfboard · 09-01-2020 7:41pm

galwaytt wrote: »

a huge amount of the traffic is actually Galway City traffic (esp Western suburbs).

Indeed there is a large amount of city traffic. However, I do not think that it is greater than the county traffic converging on the city from all the major approach roads - the R336/446, the N59/84/83/67 and the traffic jam that is the M6 which results in tailbacks back to the Oranmore junction some mornings. All of these roads dump a massive amount of cars into the business parks and the city every morning. And if these commuters did not live in one-off housing, and were therefore not car dependent, more bus (and train) services could be provided because the critical mass would exist in the county towns.

Since that's not going to change, city outskirts Bus Park n' Rides, feeding into Bus Lanes, will need to be built.

galwaytt wrote: »

There is literally no way of crossing the town that will not meet or cause, traffic, including buses. There would need to a complete free run all the way from Barna to Parkmore unhindered, for that to change.

Agreed. And so there should be. The Western Distributor Road is wide enough for bus lanes, and so a bus lane should be developed with the roundabouts on it replaced by traffic lights with the bus getting priority. A proper QBC, in other words. From there you already have a bus lane as far as the back of the hospital. Had one lane on the bridge been a dedicated bus lane when it was built you then could have extended that all the way to Ballybrit, but it wasn't and it can't be done now until (if) the bypass is built.

However, the roundabout at the back of the hospital is going to be replaced and when it is, a bus route that goes through the hospital and onto NUIG and the city centre should be provided. UCHG/NUIG are a huge magnet for cars which you can see if you look at their car parks.

galwaytt wrote: »

The Park & Ride won't work without it: witness the one at Christmas - all goes well till the Bus Lane ends, and you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Agreed, which is why the Bus Lane shouldn't end. Galway has to grasp the nettle of having bus-only streets in the city centre.

galwaytt wrote: »

SO has changed from car to bus since beginning of December. Only 1 flaw: it gets stuck in the same traffic on the way home

Again, bus-only roads and bus lanes would solve this problem.

As an example of what's missing, there is supposed to be a bus lane inward provided on the Tuam road from just after Claregalway all the way to Wellpark.

The Connacht Tribune wrote:

Phase One ... the stretch from Claregalway to the junction at Fleming’s Garage ... Could be done relatively quickly as compulsory purchase orders (CPOs) would not be needed as far as Castlegar church

But so far, there is nothing happening.

Of course, for city traffic itself, the council's answer is that there will be great solutions after the bypass is built. However, given that that is likely a decade away (if ever), progress should be made now.

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 8:19pm

westtip wrote: »

Do you know what I detect a sense of envy that the Greenway campaign is able to motivate thousands of people to sign petitions, and motivate people who don't usually get involved to fire off submissions, whatever you say each person who sends in a submission feels they are belonging and acting as part of group, the greenway group got 3,000 people to march on the streets of Tuam perhaps it would have been better if just one person turned up the county hall with reasoned argument, the whole point about a campaign is involving people getting people to take action, personally I know Brendan Quinn rather well (sic) and I know he just cannot believe how many people have taken action on an issue probably for the first time in their lives due to his persuasive arguments. I just don' t think WOT can garner a fraction of the people to take action be it sending in multitudes of submissions or marching on the street, and to win a campaign you have to be noticed and guess what its the squeaky bike that tends to get the oil.

But...but...if 3999 people send in a petition asking for the moon to be made of blue cheese and 30 people ask for it to stay the same does that make the 3999 people right?

serfboard · 09-01-2020 8:26pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

But...but...if 3999 people send in a petition asking for the moon to be made of blue cheese and 30 people ask for it to stay the same does that make the 3999 people right?

If 3,999 people say that they are not going to use a train service, and 30 people say that they are, do you build a train line to accommodate those 30 people?

Sligo eye · 09-01-2020 8:58pm

serfboard wrote: »

If 3,999 people say that they are not going to use a train service, and 30 people say that they are, do you build a train line to accommodate those 30 people?

From your response you clearly have no idea of how planning actually works.

ezstreet5 · 09-01-2020 9:07pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

I agree on the spamming, but you are wrong about everything else, including the feasibility study, which was an attempt to position the Council on the issue and not a real attempt to draw down funds. It was scuppered with a cute-hoor contrived diluted proposal led by railway promotors with nothing but contempt for the greenway campaign. They got called out in local media. The newspaper reporters were in the chamber and saw what happened. Some of the orchestrators subsequently lost their council seats. Nothing to do with campaigning or spin. But...... The west will get neither greenway or railway while there is public squabbling going on between the two groups. A bit of bants here is fine, but the issue has become toxic and nasty (I think we agree on that too). This isn't Youghal or New Ross where the trail v rail arguments were easily won politically. Nothing will be achieved while the whiff of cordite still abounds- especially when it's in the county council chambers.

Yes! That was exactly the bizarre commentary that resulted from that Council meeting. The greenway campaign, junior minister, and some of the local media seemed quite pleased to propagate the same. In reality, there were two adopted motions:

1. That Galway Co. Co. give an expression of interest before 31st October 2018 that they wish to apply for funding from the €53 million government fund to carry out a feasibility study on the establishment of greenway as a complimentary use of the disused rail line between Athenry and Milltown, and

2. That Galway Co. Co. seek funding from the Dept of Transport of carry out a feasibility study of all options for a greenway network in the County to link to the the National Greenway Network.

We see from the full language of the first motion ('If we miss this deadline the opportunity is gone for the foreseeable future.') that councilors honestly believed they were applying for some substantive level of funding for a specific greenway. Also, we saw the councilors that voted in favour of the second being lambasted and targeted as somehow being "anti-greenway" because they supported a county-wide feasibility study of other greenways. I think this was the beginning of the toxicity, and the junior minister gleefully fanned those flames to rile up one-issue voters.

Subsequently, both requests were submitted to DTTAS, and both refused because they did not meet the guidelines. So all of that nasty, political rhetoric was pointless in the end. There was never a coordinated, civil, reasoned strategy to build political consensus on the issue (which may be impossible now), and I would suggest that a €75k 'feasibility study' would not have done that either.

Muckyboots · 09-01-2020 10:21pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Yes! That was exactly the bizarre commentary that resulted from that Council meeting. The greenway campaign, junior minister, and some of the local media seemed quite pleased to propagate the same. In reality, there were two adopted motions:

1. That Galway Co. Co. give an expression of interest before 31st October 2018 that they wish to apply for funding from the €53 million government fund to carry out a feasibility study on the establishment of greenway as a complimentary use of the disused rail line between Athenry and Milltown, and

2. That Galway Co. Co. seek funding from the Dept of Transport of carry out a feasibility study of all options for a greenway network in the County to link to the the National Greenway Network.

We see from the full language of the first motion ('If we miss this deadline the opportunity is gone for the foreseeable future.') that councilors honestly believed they were applying for some substantive level of funding for a specific greenway. Also, we saw the councilors that voted in favour of the second being lambasted and targeted as somehow being "anti-greenway" because they supported a county-wide feasibility study of other greenways. I think this was the beginning of the toxicity, and the junior minister gleefully fanned those flames to rile up one-issue voters.

Subsequently, both requests were submitted to DTTAS, and both refused because they did not meet the guidelines. So all of that nasty, political rhetoric was pointless in the end. There was never a coordinated, civil, reasoned strategy to build political consensus on the issue (which may be impossible now), and I would suggest that a €75k 'feasibility study' would not have done that either.

There was only one adopted motion. The second one. The one which was contrived to dilute mention of rail alignment out of the proposal. Under public and media pressure the acting CEO subsequently submitted both proposals but probably did so knowing they would be both turned down. Some councillors obviously felt that creating a **** storm that delivered nothing was better than giving even a pyrric victory, or confidence boost, to the greenway campaign. There are some dispicables on the pro rail side. It's not angels v demons.

ezstreet5 · 09-01-2020 10:47pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

There was only one adopted motion. The second one. The one which was contrived to dilute mention of rail alignment out of the proposal. Under public and media pressure the acting CEO subsequently submitted both proposals but probably did so knowing they would be both turned down. Some councillors obviously felt that creating a **** storm that delivered nothing was better than giving even a pyrric victory, or confidence boost, to the greenway campaign. There are some dispicables on the pro rail side. It's not angels v demons.

After a second look at the minutes, I agree. There was only one motion that was twice amended. Only the second amendment stood. I may not agree on the cynical intent of that second amendment, but I suppose it doesn't really matter now. In hindsight, there was probably no motion that could have been adopted at that meeting that would have resulted in the council getting one cent of the €53 million.

galwaytt · 10-01-2020 3:51pm

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed there is a large amount of city traffic. However, I do not think that it is greater than the county traffic converging on the city from all the major approach roads - the R336/446, the N59/84/83/67 and the traffic jam that is the M6 which results in tailbacks back to the Oranmore junction some mornings. All of these roads dump a massive amount of cars into the business parks and the city every morning. And if these commuters did not live in one-off housing, and were therefore not car dependent, more bus (and train) services could be provided because the critical mass would exist in the county towns.

You're right, there is a lot of traffic from R336/446, N59/84/83/67 and the traffic jam that is the M6. However it's too simplistic to say it's one off housing. It's the towns of Athenry, Loughrea, Ballinasloe, Gort, Portumna, Tuam, Roscommon, Claremorris etc etc and all the other towns - some commuting from Athlone. Athenry itself is virtually a suburb of Galway now, population and work profile wise.

serfboard wrote: »

Of course, for city traffic itself, the council's answer is that there will be great solutions after the bypass is built. However, given that that is likely a decade away (if ever), progress should be made now.

That's the bummer. Even if they start now, you're looking at another 10 years of Chaos: time for Plan M.

M is for...Motorbike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHBUiKI_atU

westtip · 10-01-2020 6:02pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

But...but...if 3999 people send in a petition asking for the moon to be made of blue cheese and 30 people ask for it to stay the same does that make the 3999 people right?

that's fine. whatever. however it is pretty clear there is huge support for the greenway evidence based on the sheer volume of people participating in thr process. also it's clear the minority asking for the overgrown closed railway to stay the same....a complete waste of this resource appear at the moment to be winning. fair play to them for that ....and it appears that Mr canney is doing all he can to stop the report from being published.

serfboard · 10-01-2020 8:05pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

From your response you clearly have no idea of how planning actually works.

Oh I know well how "planning" works in the West of Ireland - scatter a load of houses throughout the countryside and then wonder why our population is car dependent and why we don't have a critical mass in our towns for public transport.

Meanwhile, spend over 100 million on a train line to transport an average number of passengers that wouldn't even fill a bus.

That's how "planning" works here.

ezstreet5 · 10-01-2020 10:03pm

Where is DaCor when we need him?

westtip · 10-01-2020 11:03pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Where is DaCor when we need him?

I think he got lost in the crowd of 3,000 people marching for a greenway in Tuam.

11-01-2020 1:34am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Where is DaCor when we need him?

You rang?

Sligo eye · 11-01-2020 11:45am

serfboard wrote: »

Oh I know well how "planning" works in the West of Ireland - scatter a load of houses throughout the countryside and then wonder why our population is car dependent and why we don't have a critical mass in our towns for public transport.

Meanwhile, spend over 100 million on a train line to transport an average number of passengers that wouldn't even fill a bus.

That's how "planning" works here.

And yet you fight for the status quo, vehemently.

The trouble is that the Greenway campaign is, as my fellow public transport campaigner Steve Bradley put it in a tweet the other day,

“These guys have made the campaign for a greenway there into an anti-rail crusade. A huge shame.”

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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