CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 12:46am

suicide_circus wrote: »

What's your solution?

Bankrupt the company and give pay rise. Or tax payer hit.I wager.

pablo128 · 29-01-2017 12:49am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The simple solution would be let it go bankrupt and that would allow the company to sack all the employees and start from scratch. That is not feasible as the public would get outraged and too many good public servants would lose their livelihoods. Just like what happened with Cleary's. What is needed is some sort of a business plan get investors in with expertise who can turn companies around. Reduce inefficiencies and provide better incentive rather than just throwing money at every problem.

This is what the company are trying to do.

The Unions are throwing a fit about it.

boombang · 29-01-2017 12:51am

end of the road wrote: »

irrelevant as public subsidized transport is as far from supermarkets and other businesses as it gets.

What's not relevant about the analogy of the government forcing the public to pay more for a good or service from certain providers that others are willing to provide for less? Sure supermarkets and bus travel are different, but what's wrong with the analogy?

end of the road · 29-01-2017 12:51am

stimpson wrote: »

State company pays average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000

Source

Yeah. You haven't a clue how averages work.

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Bankrupt the company and give pay rise. Or tax payer hit.I wager.

you would be incorrect.

boombang wrote: »

What's not relevant about the analogy of the government forcing the public to pay more for a good or service from certain providers that others are willing to provide for less? Sure supermarkets and bus travel are different, but what's wrong with the analogy?

they're aren't others willing to provide for less on the subsidized routes, which will be the majority routes to suffer if bus eireann did go to the wall, as they can't afford to do so and make a profit.

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 12:57am

end of the road wrote: »

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

you would be incorrect.

They lay our the plan.

C. Montgomery Gurns · 29-01-2017 1:14am

stimpson wrote: »

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility. I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

In fairness I would imagine Bus Eireann drivers are more likely to have to work very anti social shifts. Some of the private commuter services in and out of Dublin operate on a one in the morning return in the evening model and never work public holidays (I assume the driver just hangs around town all day), many CIE services clock off around midnight, some are near on 24/7.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 1:18am

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

In fairness I would imagine Bus Eireann drivers are more likely to have to work very anti social shifts. Some of the private commuter services in and out of Dublin operate on a one in the morning return in the evening model and never work public holidays (I assume the driver just hangs around town all day), many CIE services clock off around midnight, some are near on 24/7.

And the last aircoach leaves at 3:25 in the morning.

http://www.aircoach.ie/timetables

29-01-2017 1:28am

If 50k is supposedly a ridiculously high salary for a mere unskilled worker/bus driver, I look forward to all the rightwing armchair warriors finding a house for their family in Dublin for 3.5 times that: €175k.

All 40 houses today in Dublin under €175k. What, pray tell, is the point in working when all you can afford is an ex-council house in woeful condition in a supercrap part of the city? Don't work, and the state will eventually give you a choice of houses for a minimal rent per month.No incentive.

If Irish workers were not held to ransom by successive Irish governments unashamedly in cahoots with CIF/Irish developers/housebuilders/financial institutions to screw Irish workers (by refusing to tackle supply) until house puchasers have bailed all the aforementioned "capitalist" parasites out from all their losses, then it might be fair to pay a bus driver €35k or the like.

Sort out the real scandal of property prices in this city and these supposedly high salaries will decrease. Typical of some, however, to blame Irish workers and ignore the massive collective screwing going on of ordinary workers by the financial and construction industries that are too important for the Irish government to allow to fail.

C. Montgomery Gurns · 29-01-2017 1:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

If 50k is supposedly a ridiculously high salary for a mere unskilled worker/bus driver, I look forward to all the rightwing armchair warriors finding a house for their family in Dublin for 3.5 times that: €175k.

All 40 houses today in Dublin under €175k. What, pray tell, is the point in working when all you can afford is an ex-council house in woeful condition in a supercrap part of the city? Don't work, and the state will eventually give you a choice of houses for a minimal rent per month.No incentive.

.

In fairness 12 of those are private builds in middle class areas.

I do think 50,000 is too high for a bus driver, but let's be honest, the lads on that are the exception to the rule. For whatever reason, from my experience on both CIE and Dublin Bus it seems pretty rare to see a driver who appears younger than 35- I imagine they must prefer applicants with a very long clean driving history. From memory most of them start on around the 29K mark at the minute. If someone in their mid 30's has just secured a 30 year mortgage at, say, 800 a month, and tomorrow they are told they're getting dropped down to close on 26K, that is not right nor fair.

suicide_circus · 29-01-2017 1:39am

end of the road wrote: »

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

you would be incorrect.

they're aren't others willing to provide for less on the subsidized routes, which will be the majority routes to suffer if bus eireann did go to the wall, as they can't afford to do so and make a profit.

So what's your solution? You're opposed to the workers reducing their Ts and Cs. Youre opposed to to FTPs being asked to contribute. Go on then.

end of the road · 29-01-2017 1:52am

suicide_circus wrote: »

So what's your solution? You're opposed to the workers reducing their Ts and Cs. Youre opposed to to FTPs being asked to contribute. Go on then.

it's not up to me to come up with a solution, i'm not management of the company.

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 2:01am

end of the road wrote: »

it's not up to me to come up with a solution, i'm not management of the company.

suicide_circus · 29-01-2017 2:19am

end of the road wrote: »

it's not up to me to come up with a solution, i'm not management of the company.

Grand so. Hurler on the ditch. Nothing of value to contribute.

Zebra3 · 29-01-2017 5:04am

Talking about what figure a driver is on is irrelevant.

Bus drivers tend to do shift work therefore the real figure in question is their basic pay. The reason that gets topped up is because they work unsociable hours that many of their detractors would never dream of working.

As for the "driving a bus is a simple job" claim, I don't buy it. The endless concentrating on the road, cars, pedestrians, cyclists, while having to deal with customers, no way in hell would I do it even if I was offered €50k a year.

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 6:02am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Talking about what figure a driver is on is irrelevant.

Bus drivers tend to do shift work therefore the real figure in question is their basic pay. The reason that gets topped up is because they work unsociable hours that many of their detractors would never dream of working.

As for the "driving a bus is a simple job" claim, I don't buy it. The endless concentrating on the road, cars, pedestrians, cyclists, while having to deal with customers, no way in hell would I do it even if I was offered €50k a year.

Radio, mobiles. Lol at the customers. Unless you work a really bad rout it's pretty much easy. You realise the bus drivers have a HGV that's all. Not a degree in rocket science. I remember a few high profile crashes due to mobiles. The lads on the late shift are on very very good rates.

magentis · 29-01-2017 6:11am

What is a rout?

And I don't think a bus is a Heavy Goods Vehicle as it carries people not goods.

Winterlong · 29-01-2017 9:19am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Company fast on the way to insolvency. Job looses or pay cuts 2 options. Dole or a job.

I heard on the radio that if they did lay off all staff the average redundancy payment would be upward of 200k each.
:eek:

The Rape of Lucretia · 29-01-2017 9:38am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Talking about what figure a driver is on is irrelevant.

Bus drivers tend to do shift work therefore the real figure in question is their basic pay. The reason that gets topped up is because they work unsociable hours that many of their detractors would never dream of working.

As for the "driving a bus is a simple job" claim, I don't buy it. The endless concentrating on the road, cars, pedestrians, cyclists, while having to deal with customers, no way in hell would I do it even if I was offered €50k a year.

Driving a bus is as simple as a job gets, and so should be pretty much one of the lowest paid jobs out there. Are there really even people who couldnt drive one ? Its a €25k a year job with a little extra for the nights a holidays hours.

A major problem, as well as tge basic rate with these drivers are the allowances and premiums, which are simply off the graph in todays world, and are a legacy from its state employment past. Compounded then by knock on relativities for other staff, making them all over paid.
A state subvention for a public transport bus service, uneconomic rural routes, and even the old age pass, are fine. As long as you get value for money - and BE today does not give it. It seems the mgmt is addressing this by cutting the overtime, allowance rates etc. Its a start.

Unions unfortunately dont care about jobs - until redundancy notices are issued. Up to that, they will try to screw as much as they can out of the system for their members, whether they deserve it or not, whether it is sustainable or not, whether it is moral or not, or whether it robs an overpaying taxpayer or not.

riemann · 29-01-2017 9:58am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Driving a bus is as simple as a job gets, and so should be pretty much one of the lowest paid jobs out there. Are there really even people who couldnt drive one ?

Sadly the entire world isn't made up of talented people like your good self.
I'm sure you'll breeze through all the different driving tests in a few years when you are eligible to take them.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 10:55am

end of the road wrote: »

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 11:01am

ClovenHoof wrote:

Why can't we have proper public transport instead of these loons.

'Keep the recovery going' folks!

end of the road · 29-01-2017 4:54pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Driving a bus is as simple as a job gets, and so should be pretty much one of the lowest paid jobs out there. Are there really even people who couldnt drive one ? Its a €25k a year job with a little extra for the nights a holidays hours.

A major problem, as well as tge basic rate with these drivers are the allowances and premiums, which are simply off the graph in todays world, and are a legacy from its state employment past. Compounded then by knock on relativities for other staff, making them all over paid.
A state subvention for a public transport bus service, uneconomic rural routes, and even the old age pass, are fine. As long as you get value for money - and BE today does not give it. It seems the mgmt is addressing this by cutting the overtime, allowance rates etc. Its a start.

Unions unfortunately dont care about jobs - until redundancy notices are issued. Up to that, they will try to screw as much as they can out of the system for their members, whether they deserve it or not, whether it is sustainable or not, whether it is moral or not, or whether it robs an overpaying taxpayer or not.

it's not a 25k job, otherwise 25k is what would be paid and no more. the responsibility and the market have decided it's worth a hell of a lot more. our public transport receives one of, if not the lowest subsidy in europe, so we the tax payer are actually getting a cheep deal.

The Rape of Lucretia · 29-01-2017 6:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

it's not a 25k job, otherwise 25k is what would be paid and no more. the responsibility and the market have decided it's worth a hell of a lot more. our public transport receives one of, if not the lowest subsidy in europe, so we the tax payer are actually getting a cheep deal.

The market hasnt decided. The market was distorted by trade union pressure on politicians and decades of disgraceful feathering of the nest of state employees. BE is NOW feeling the pressure of the market, and it is deciding that they are worth a lot less that what they are being paid today. Compare their rates to the those in the private sector. That is what they are worth in reality.

The Rape of Lucretia · 29-01-2017 6:41pm

riemann wrote: »

Sadly the entire world isn't made up of talented people like your good self.
I'm sure you'll breeze through all the different driving tests in a few years when you are eligible to take them.

Exactly. I would if I took them. Everyone one would. Its an almost nil skill job. There is simply no shortage of raw material that cant be trained cheaply and quickly to do it, and it requires no particular ability, intelligence, education, or talent. Which makes it about as generic low value job as there is.

end of the road · 29-01-2017 6:46pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The market hasnt decided. The market was distorted by trade union pressure on politicians and decades of disgraceful feathering of the nest of state employees. BE is NOW feeling the pressure of the market, and it is deciding that they are worth a lot less that what they are being paid today. Compare their rates to the those in the private sector. That is what they are worth in reality.

the market has decided. rates in the private sector are near what BE staff are on

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Exactly. I would if I took them. Everyone one would. Its an almost nil skill job. There is simply no shortage of raw material that cant be trained cheaply and quickly to do it, and it requires no particular ability, intelligence, education, or talent. Which makes it about as generic low value job as there is.

the market says otherwise, and thankfully we have people with experience who say you are wrong.

Míshásta · 29-01-2017 7:06pm

Bus driving an unskilled simple job?

No it's definitely not. I bet there are many people with the equivalent of a master's in science who would never pass the test. Travelling around with a busful of human beings is a very responsible job needing special talents.

I'm not suggesting they be paid the equivalent of a hospital consultant, but to class the job as unskilled is just balderdash.

Specialun · 29-01-2017 7:07pm

Míshásta wrote: »

Bus driving an unskilled simple job?

No it's definitely not. I bet there are many people with the equivalent of a master's in science who would never pass the test. Travelling around with a busful of human beings is a very responsible job needing special talents.

I'm not suggesting they be paid the equivalent of a hospital consultant, but to class the job as unskilled is just balderdash.

Lets not get carried away here..its hardly quantum physics

CatFromHue · 29-01-2017 7:21pm

it's not unskilled as you need a bus licence so it's semi skilled.

The Rape of Lucretia · 29-01-2017 7:41pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

it's not unskilled as you need a bus licence so it's semi skilled.

Well, very slightly skilled. But like tying your shoe laces, everyone can learn to do it with a little practice.
The bottom line is they are grossly overpaid. And probably bitch themselves about the quality of politicians and government when it is the very same politicians that are responsible for overpaying them. No marches to Kildare street by drivers objecting to how they are disgracefully overpaid, and the government should force BE to rectify this horrendous waste when people would happly do their job for two thirds of the amount.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 7:47pm

i really cant wait for us to move on from the utopia ideology of the 'free market', be less of this nonsense.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 8:02pm

Míshásta wrote: »

Bus driving an unskilled simple job?

No it's definitely not.

My old man got a bus licence to do voluntary work for a charity group. I think it took him 6 weeks part time. While he was doing his full time job.

titan18 · 29-01-2017 8:03pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

a large of our policies are actually right leaning particularly economically

Ha. Good one.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 8:05pm

titan18 wrote: »

Ha. Good one.

not really that good to be honest, really having dreadful effects on us socially, economically and environmentally

magentis · 29-01-2017 8:08pm

stimpson wrote: »

My old man got a bus licence to do voluntary work for a charity group. I think it took him 6 weeks part time. While he was doing his full time job.

And how about his cpc?

And what size bus?

stimpson · 29-01-2017 8:12pm

magentis wrote: »

And how about his cpc?

And what size bus?

I'd have to ask him about the CPC. It was a large enough bus. Big enough for 10 seated passengers and at least a dozen wheelchairs.

pablo128 · 29-01-2017 8:48pm

stimpson wrote: »

My old man got a bus licence to do voluntary work for a charity group. I think it took him 6 weeks part time. While he was doing his full time job.

My brothers trained for 4 years each as electricians and plumbing trade. Bus Eireann drivers get paid more than them.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 8:49pm

pablo128 wrote: »

My brothers trained for 4 years each as electricians and plumbing trade. Bus Eireann drivers get paid more than them.

is the problem with the public sector or with the trades industry?

Infini · 29-01-2017 9:19pm

pablo128 wrote: »

My brothers trained for 4 years each as electricians and plumbing trade. Bus Eireann drivers get paid more than them.

Think this is the mentality issue some people have with unions. They get bitter over the fact their negotiating position is weaker when they definately deserve better but cant do anything about it. They get upset at the feeling theyre (BE) on better wages on them but the problem is somewhat systemic of society itself. Some people are stuck on crap wages or should be on a higher average wage at that point in their lives than theyre currently at. Cost of living goes up but wages dont. They then hear some dodgy or incompetent piece of news where they think these staff are on massive money even tho the information may not be actually precise then get bitter.

BE isnt perfect like the other 2 companies bad management both in skill and attitude has polarised opinions of the staff to the point that they wont give anything out of simple lack of trust and 10 years of stagnant wages. Government policies dont help either they and the NTA deny it but theres no way they could not have their own share of the blame to go round. BE is also a service semi state meant to be there to fill the gap private operators wont bother their hole to fill and not to be considered in the same sense as a for profit company.

Honestly the whole thing seems to be played out in the media as a way of trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. Too much collateral damage. Neither can it be allowed to go to the wall either the loss of services alone would be a vote burner for the government as people would be effectively abandoned in the country if the service were to cease. Not to mention the spillover into the other companies as there could be financial fallout for the pension scheme for example which is one issue that would trigger a triple strike. If management were so concerned about the state of the company negotiations shouldve been started ages ago not the feeling the issue is being dumped on the staffs heads with no warning and theyre meant to take it. All that trial by media will accomplish is further polarisation of sides and hardening of staff attitudes to this.

magentis · 29-01-2017 9:30pm

stimpson wrote: »

I'd have to ask him about the CPC. It was a large enough bus. Big enough for 10 seated passengers and at least a dozen wheelchairs.

A dozen wheelchairs on one bus?

No such bus exists in this country.

The Rape of Lucretia · 29-01-2017 9:34pm

Infini2 wrote: »

Cost of living goes up but wages dont.

BE isnt perfect like the other 2 companies bad management both in skill and attitude has polarised opinions of the staff to the point that they wont give anything out of simple lack of trust and 10 years of stagnant wages.

The cost of living has not gone up since the crash in 08. And it is still stable at zero.

Wages at that time were too high throughout the economy. Hence the crash. Wages in legacy public services were even more out of whack and do not have the same facility to self correct as the private sector.

So BE wages still need to fall, allowances and benefits reduced or be eliminated, overtime become a very rare exceptional event, and productivity increase.

They are just going through the painful wrench from a privileged, protected, and uneconomic abuse of public funds, to one in line with the service provided, and level of work involved. It will be traumatic. But the breaking point has been reached as happened in Aer Lingus and elsewhere. BE must make the leap to the real world.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 9:42pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The cost of living has not gone up since the crash in 08. And it is still stable at zero.

asset price inflation maybe!

Wages at that time were too high throughout the economy. Hence the crash. Wages in legacy public services were even more out of whack and do not have the same facility to self correct as the private sector.

anything to do with cheap credit flooding the market, leading to an asset/housing bubble, maybe?

So BE wages still need to fall, allowances and benefits reduced or be eliminated, overtime become a very rare exceptional event, and productivity increase.

we really need to stop with this productivity increase and perpetual growth nonsense

They are just going through the painful wrench from a privileged, protected, and uneconomic abuse of public funds, to one in line with the service provided, and level of work involved. It will be traumatic. But the breaking point has been reached as happened in Aer Lingus and elsewhere. BE must make the leap to the real world.

maybe it be ta do with the fundamental failings of free market economic/neoliberal policies and flawed economic theories such as neoclassical theory,maybe?

just maybe!

magentis · 29-01-2017 9:48pm

I know this is after hours but some of the factual inaccuracies posted in this thread are hilarious.

Oblivoid · 29-01-2017 10:01pm

Nobody earning more than 40k would ever be responsible for a traffic accident. They're too skilled and intelligent to ever let that happen.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 10:02pm

magentis wrote: »

A dozen wheelchairs on one bus?

No such bus exists in this country.

Nonsense. A quick search shows VanHool do a coach that will do 55 seated or 30 seated/12 wheelchairs. The one he drove was a custom converted Mercedes with 2 benches up front and the rest was fitted with tracking for restraining the wheelchairs.

Infini · 29-01-2017 10:02pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The cost of living has not gone up since the crash in 08. And it is still stable at zero.

Wages at that time were too high throughout the economy. Hence the crash. Wages in legacy public services were even more out of whack and do not have the same facility to self correct as the private sector.

My arse the cost of living hasnt gone up since 08 o wait hai USC, pension levy, water tax, home tax ect etc.

Also as for the crash it wasnt the public sector that caused that it was the governent at the time taking on 64billion of dodgy debt half of which was from a dodgy bank that hid its losses and a headless chicken EU that strongarmed the government into a bailout. Thats the prime and core cause not the public sector.

Of course its easier to just blame our own regular workers than go for the ones who were in charge....

magentis · 29-01-2017 10:11pm

stimpson wrote: »

Nonsense. A quick search shows VanHool do a coach that will do 55 seated or 30 seated/12 wheelchairs. The one he drove was a custom converted Mercedes with 2 benches up front and the rest was fitted with tracking for restraining the wheelchairs.

And how many of those van Hool are in this country????

There are no mercedes coaches or buses in this country with the capacity you are talking about or ever was.I know this for a fact.

magentis · 29-01-2017 10:14pm

stimpson wrote: »

Nonsense. A quick search shows VanHool do a coach that will do 55 seated or 30 seated/12 wheelchairs. The one he drove was a custom converted Mercedes with 2 benches up front and the rest was fitted with tracking for restraining the wheelchairs.

Which organisation do you feel had this incredible vehicle?

lawred2 · 29-01-2017 10:14pm

Head down to Connolly station/bus aras any time and watch the convoy of near empty bus eireann buses leave the depot..

I'm around there every day and I see double decker expressway services pull off with about two people on board..

Doesn't seen sustainable to me.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2017 10:17pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Head down to Connolly station/bus aras any time and watch the convoy of near empty bus eireann buses leave the depot..

I'm around there every day and I see double decker expressway services pull off with about two people on board..

Doesn't seen sustainable to me.

good few near empty buses leaving stations alright but to be fair, they could be picking up along the routes

CatFromHue · 29-01-2017 10:22pm

Infini2 wrote: »

My arse the cost of living hasnt gone up since 08 o wait hai USC, pension levy, water tax, home tax ect etc.

Also as for the crash it wasnt the public sector that caused that it was the governent at the time taking on 64billion of dodgy debt half of which was from a dodgy bank that hid its losses and a headless chicken EU that strongarmed the government into a bailout. Thats the prime and core cause not the public sector.

Of course its easier to just blame our own regular workers than go for the ones who were in charge....

There was a major problem with public income v expenditure even without any money been spent on the banks.

We were taking in something like a half to two thirds of what we were spending from around 08 til we got bailed out.

CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

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