Post RWC

jacothelad · 21-10-2019 12:05pm

whatawaster wrote: »

My 34 man squad for the 6N

TH - Furlong, Porter, Moore

LH - Healy, Kilcoyne, O'Sullivan

HK - Scannell, Marshall, B Byrne

Lock - J Ryan, Henderson, Dillane, Beirne

Back Row - (Leavy injured) - VDF, Stander, Conan, Deegan, Ruddock, POM

Scrum-Half - Murray, Marmion/McGrath, Gibson-Park

Out-Half - Carbery, Byrne, Carty

Centre - Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, Arnold

Back 3 - Larmour, Conway, Stockdale, Addison, Lowry

That's pretty much the squad going forward if we don't make the decision to refresh it. However, some guys I'd disagree with are O'Sullivan over McGrath until we see how they work out in the same team. Arnold hasn't really moved on much which is a pity. He looked good a while back. I'd have McCloskey ahead of him until he gets back on track and also Luke Marshall.
Lowry isn't within a country mile of the Irish set up. For all his 'talent' he just hasn't cut it ...yet. Also I think Baloucoune looks the replacement for Earls when he is no longer considered. I also think that Rob Lyttle is a bit of a star but the competition is great.

jacothelad · 21-10-2019 12:07pm

connachta wrote: »

For RWC 2023 we should have 2 decent outhalf backs per provinces. We could, bringing back the 2 Priemiership guys

Ulster : Burns (29) + Herron (27)
Connacht : Carty (31) + C.Fitzgerald (26)
Leinster : Byrne (28) + Sheedy (27)
Munster : Carbery (27) + Bleyendaal (33)

Brett Herron plays for Harlequins now and why would he come back. I actually don't think he got a proper chance. Ulster should have made a play for Callum Sheedy years ago.

Movementarian · 21-10-2019 12:10pm

At this point I dont even think we need to massively go nuts with creative rugby.

I would settle for dropping the predictable wrap around off 10 and focus more on simple hands out wide.

Maybe encourage more sniping runs from the 9 and 10 so defenses cant just ignore them and spread out.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 12:44pm

JJJackal wrote: »

If your leaving out sexton and co you cant be bringing in dave kearney, dev and SOB - same vintage

You've misread what I'd typed, I said I can't see Toner or O'Brien ever coming back, and I was referring to the immediate post-RWC campaigns.
Dave Kearney could be around for another couple of years, he is only just turned 30 in June.
It remains to be seen who will fill the void if and when Rob Kearney and Keith Earls fade out of the Ireland squad over the next 12-24 months.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 12:52pm

The one player that way be a big improvement to this squad could be Aaron Sexton, if he fulfills his promise he could be the best wing we’ve ever produced.

Former Former · 21-10-2019 1:03pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I believe there's a good group scratching the surface.
Paul Boyle for me is probably the one who comes to mind. He's 21. I think he's got a good shout of making the extended squad, or better.
Deegan, clearly he's something special. Speed and great carrying ability. He could crack the squad soon.
Treadwell has been great for Ulster. Athletic and very big. He may be recalled.
Marty Moore was great last year. He's a viable option at back up.
Porter, should he revert to lh?
In the backs, Tom Farrell has been really good.
McCloskey and Gilroy could get another look and Hume may be an option in a year or two.
I also think that Flannery in Munster looks like he could be a future option.
A lot of talent hovering at the gate.

See this is my point exactly;
McCloskey/Gilroy/Farrell/Treadwell/Moore - these guys are squad filler at best. Marty Moore is maybe the best hope but he's an old-school tight-head when we have Furlong and Porter who can scrummage, carry and win turnovers. The others are significantly worse players than the incumbents in their positions. They won't improve us one iota and if none of the above ever win another cap, I don't think we will lose much.

Boyle looks decent, I don't know anything about Flannery, but are either of them ready to force their way into the reckoning?

Then there's Deegan. It might be unpopular but I don't really see it. He's a good player, no doubt, but who out of POM/Stander/Murphy/Ruddock/Conan is he going to displace?

Honestly, barring some serious breakthrough players emerging, I think we are in for a bit of a lean spell.

whatawaster · 21-10-2019 1:22pm

Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, barring some serious breakthrough players emerging, I think we are in for a bit of a lean spell.

I think we have enough good players still young or in their prime that this shouldn't be the case.

Then there are the players in their late teens/early 20s who are probably going to see massive improvements over the next few years. 4 years ago VDF, Leavy and Ringrose were just breaking into the Leinster team. Deegan, Doris, Penny etc probably have just as much, if not more, potential.

AdamD · 21-10-2019 1:32pm

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

ClanofLams · 21-10-2019 1:53pm

With Cronin out, Ronan Kelleher will probably get a chance in Europe, it’s an area of weakness for Ireland at the moment, he could force his way into squad very quickly.

Don’t watch as much as Leinster as many on here but from what I’ve seen, Doris looks like he could be top class. It will be interesting to see who gets no8 for Europe, hope it’s him just to get a better look at him.

Caolin Blade could force his way into match day 23 if he maintains his current form. Unless Murray regains his form in a significant way, he should be dropped for first game of six nations, be it McGrath, Marmion, Blade or JGP who replaces him. Murray Kinsella writing today that fringe players felt they had no chance of getting past the established first XV players no matter what they did. Farrell needs to make clear those days are gone.

Larmour should take over at 15. Could do with finding a few wing options, Ulster have some talented looking wingers even aside from Stockdale.

Change up the style and bring in a few players can put more an optimistic outlook on the future.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 1:59pm

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 2:05pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

disagree. I've been involved with plenty of teams that offloaded. I played against clubs for years with that mindset. UCD, Lansdowne, Trinity spring to mind. Yeah a lower level but all part of the same pyramid. Any rugby player involved in Irish rugby has learned drills designed for offloading. Yes its less than the kiwis etc. But only this week i got a text saying from our club team saying not to play tipper but to warm up with drills and team functions. Utter bs. We used to play touch pre every training session , some with Sexton, and the skills on show were brilliant. The lads in the Irish set up have been hamstrung by Schmidt. Mike Ross uncritically goes into detail about his plan in his book. Google it, to me its shocking. McCloskey was effectively banished for a dropped offload.

Alan Quinlan arguing we don't offload cause its the weather and Northern rugby. Then cites the Fijian second row who played for glasgow in scoutstun offloading at will. also did we imagine the Pat Lam era? We play very few games in wet weather. In most rugby below AIL it gets called off if big rain. I've been to loads of Leinster matches last year in the bone dry.

Leinster offload...James Ryan is a brilliant offloader. He tried one that dropped for Ireland against England i think and i'm sure Joe ate him alive. Haven't seen it since.

Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 2:40pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

disagree. I've been involved with plenty of teams that offloaded. I played against clubs for years with that mindset. UCD, Lansdowne, Trinity spring to mind. Yeah a lower level but all part of the same pyramid. Any rugby player involved in Irish rugby has learned drills designed for offloading. Yes its less than the kiwis etc. But only this week i got a text saying from our club team saying not to play tipper but to warm up with drills and team functions. Utter bs. We used to play touch pre every training session , some with Sexton, and the skills on show were brilliant. The lads in the Irish set up have been hamstrung by Schmidt. Mike Ross uncritically goes into detail about his plan in his book. Google it, to me its shocking. McCloskey was effectively banished for a dropped offload.

Alan Quinlan arguing we don't offload cause its the weather and Northern rugby. Then cites the Fijian second row who played for glasgow in scoutstun offloading at will. also did we imagine the Pat Lam era? We play very few games in wet weather. In most rugby below AIL it gets called off if big rain. I've been to loads of Leinster matches last year in the bone dry.

Leinster offload...James Ryan is a brilliant offloader. He tried one that dropped for Ireland against England i think and i'm sure Joe ate him alive. Haven't seen it since.

Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

I am not going to challenge your of the AIL but at the same time this is not happening with the national side. Playing like that AIL is one thing but is it really reasonable to compare that the levels at the WC.

The weather in France is not the greatest at times and they offload. I do believe the default position (same goes for the soccer team) is to treat the ball like a hot potato and safety first.

It is then a vicious circle as the players are not trusted by the coach then the players do not back themselves on the pitch so how do you break the cycle?

TBH I have not read D'Arcy's view on it.

The Lost Sheep · 21-10-2019 2:43pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The one player that way be a big improvement to this squad could be Aaron Sexton, if he fulfills his promise he could be the best wing we’ve ever produced.

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 2:58pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am not going to challenge your of the AIL but at the same time this is not happening with the national side. Playing like that AIL is one thing but is it really reasonable to compare that the levels at the WC.

The weather in France is not the greatest at times and they offload. I do believe the default position (same goes for the soccer team) is to treat the ball like a hot potato and safety first.

It is then a vicious circle as the players are not trusted by the coach then the players do not back themselves on the pitch so how do you break the cycle?

TBH I have not read D'Arcy's view on it.

Im not comparing, im just challenging the idea that it is alien to these guys many of whom played at that level. Ireland don't offload i totally agree and it is because of our possession game. Kearney has touched on why he runs to contact its a similar thing..to set up the ruck, control the ball. Offloads means the supporting runner has to rethink the ruck etc. Schmidt chose the ruck option. So Ireland have something like the highest ruck creation numbers in World Rugby. Each ruck needs to be secured and creates hundreds of mini collisions and takes players out of the space. There's a photo or two of the team sending in 5 players to rucks on Saturday and No Allblack in sight.

Yeah it is a cycle, its a tough one. I despair at how we play anyhow. Leinster is night and day with nearly the same players.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:06pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Im not comparing, im just challenging the idea that it is alien to these guys many of whom played at that level. Ireland don't offload i totally agree and it is because of our possession game. Kearney has touched on why he runs to contact its a similar thing..to set up the ruck, control the ball. Offloads means the supporting runner has to rethink the ruck etc. Schmidt chose the ruck option. So Ireland have something like the highest ruck creation numbers in World Rugby. Each ruck needs to be secured and creates hundreds of mini collisions and takes players out of the space. There's a photo or two of the team sending in 5 players to rucks on Saturday and No Allblack in sight.

Yeah it is a cycle, its a tough one. I despair at how we play anyhow. Leinster is night and day with nearly the same players.

As a commentator said it a few years ago:

The AB see the opposition as something to avoid and side step. Ireland (by no mean the only offender) see the opposition as a target to run into. A lock gets the ball and they are practically falling to the ground already anticipating contact.

hahashake · 21-10-2019 3:07pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

Are Ireland not a big team? Burly tight 5, big halves pairing, decent sized midfield. Rest are not undersized either.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:09pm

hahashake wrote: »

Are Ireland not a big team? Burly tight 5, big halves pairing, decent sized midfield. Rest are not undersized either.

Look at how the England forwards and SA forwards played over the weekend. Ireland would have seriously struggled to match that intensity.

Utah_Saint · 21-10-2019 3:18pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Look at how the England forwards and SA forwards played over the weekend. Ireland would have seriously struggled to match that intensity.

Can't be arsed checking stats but I'm sure Ireland players compare well with others in terms of size. For SA and England it's attitude not size.

Anyway size is not the issue here...

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 3:21pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

Not many.

Hyped up to some degree : Earls, Stockdale, Ringrose, Conway, Luke, Kearney, Seanie, Healy and so forth. Turned out ok

A few got lost through injury and one or two were way off like Diarmuid McCarthy. Anybody making the pro 14 teams these days at 19 or 20 is probably in it for the long haul. The AIL is getting left behind now i think.

I agree we need to kill the hype in all angles, that includes stalwarts who are underperforming. So Conor Murray was World Class, its hype to still talk of him in that vein at least for the moment. Peter O'Mahony was Lions captain for one test for 50 minutes its hype to still refer to it.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:22pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Can't be arsed checking stats but I'm sure Ireland players compare well with others in terms of size. For SA and England it's attitude not size.

Anyway size is not the issue here...

I think you are taking my post too literally. I was more referring to the intensity, size and how these have traditionally been both SA's and England's default strengths and 'go to' game plan as opposed to how Wales and NZ play.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 4:18pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

Donnielighto · 21-10-2019 4:51pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Exactly what I’m suggesting. Peter on 550 k or Ruddock on what probably 250k...they will back their investment. It’s a chicken and egg situation at times which came first the central contract or the immovable undroppable player. Like I don’t know how some of the well paid undroppable look at the others in the eye. I’m sure there is tension. People will point to dev....probably on a lower salary as he’s not as marketable and he’s aging. I think it’s a factor you don’t, we will never know. Look at Bowe always making squads right to the bitter end on his 500 k

Move to provincial contracts, private etc. ringfencing 12 guys from a 35 man squad in 2019 is dumb in my opinion. Zebo was snubbed and he thumbed his nose, rightly or wrongly but earls yesterday was making a mockery of his central contract and big bucks.

We also get flavor of the months who never stood a chance. Of course form should play a major part just as it does at lower level.

Central contracts aren't the issue. Selecting based on them is as you said.

I wouldn't be using zebo to justify much though. Hes a mouth with plenty going in and out.

Donnielighto · 21-10-2019 4:55pm

AdamD wrote: »

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

Pat Patterson of the fake name is good, very good.

aloooof · 21-10-2019 4:59pm

AdamD wrote: »

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

JJ Hanrahan was nominated for this back in 2012, so it doesn't always translate to guaranteed success at the highest level, but Deegan does seem to have a really high ceiling; lets hope he can convert his potential.

The Lost Sheep · 21-10-2019 5:26pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

I'm no protector just think people over hype kids based on schools and 20s rugby.
Being quick is great but doesnt mean he should be fast tracked.

Dubinusa · 21-10-2019 8:04pm

It's a new era now! Lots of work to do. Lots of lads to be dropped?
Ruddock for 2 years has been a lot better than POM. I think he starts.
Standers and Conan are obviously our best options at 8. Hopefully, Deegan or Doris can pressure them.
VDF is the best 7, depending on Leavy and his recovery.
Penny and Hodnett are possible prospects down the road.
Murray has been awful. Completely below average. Farrell should not persist with him unless he turns it around.
Stockdale, has not been used regularly. Both of our wings have been spectators. They need to be used more. The wrap around is so expected and predictable.
I don't think we're going to suffer a lot. A gradual introduction of new blood over the 18 months will be fine. I think the shackles need to come off a little. But, time will tell. Exciting rugby ahead?

Shefwedfan · 21-10-2019 9:49pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's a new era now! Lots of work to do. Lots of lads to be dropped?
Ruddock for 2 years has been a lot better than POM. I think he starts.
Standers and Conan are obviously our best options at 8. Hopefully, Deegan or Doris can pressure them.
VDF is the best 7, depending on Leavy and his recovery.
Penny and Hodnett are possible prospects down the road.
Murray has been awful. Completely below average. Farrell should not persist with him unless he turns it around.
Stockdale, has not been used regularly. Both of our wings have been spectators. They need to be used more. The wrap around is so expected and predictable.
I don't think we're going to suffer a lot. A gradual introduction of new blood over the 18 months will be fine. I think the shackles need to come off a little. But, time will tell. Exciting rugby ahead?

A lot of discussion about the back row :-) I do agree our back row is critical and needs to be changed. I said before tournament our back row would be an issue if we didn’t change it and unfortunately it came true....

The young players coming up are very exciting....loads of great days ahead.....hopefully with the sudden hatred of all things rugby tickets will be easier to get

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 9:49pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I'm no protector just think people over hype kids based on schools and 20s rugby.
Being quick is great but doesnt mean he should be fast tracked.

I thought I read somewhere that he is going to play sevens for a year to help develop before joining the Ulster senior squad.
Season or two with Ulster will tell a lot.
Hopefully all going well he will develop like Larmour did in his early 20’s in time to make the next RWC.

partyguinness · 22-10-2019 11:45am

I think the issue with Murray is that he is trying too much perhaps trying to be too clever and doing too much whereas he should just concentrate on his role as a SH.

This particularly struck me watching Faf de Clerk on Sunday- a busy little bee doing what SHs should do. Complete contrast to how Murray has played in recent times. Just read he was MOM against Japan.

He needs to get back to basics.

Dubinusa · 22-10-2019 6:11pm

Imo, Murray was not the best sh in Ireland last season. He seemed well off the pace and I thought he should have taken some time off after the 6nations.
It seems he's still not close to being back to himself.
If he doesn't recover form he should definitely be dropped. He's at a crossroads now! He's 30 and has a lot of miles on him. He may never return to form.
That being said, Schmidt ran him into the ground imo. I think the replacement sh's have their own set of skills and styles which were not developed. The lack of game time hurt us. The same could be said for Sexton!
He also has been poor. After the Jackson trial, it seems there was no back up plan. Carberry was rushed? He still does not impress me at 10! Carty made the team, but a little too late! RB was dumped after England absolutely hammered us, like it was his fault.
All in all, I think it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Going forward, the other 9's and 10's definitely need meaningful match time. I hope Farrell sees this. Reliance on a couple of lads is nuts.
The 6nations can't get here soon enough.

Post RWC

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