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Gold

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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,276 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Roonbox wrote: »
    I'm surprised this thread hasn't been resurrected yet after whats happened in the last couple of days..

    Considering some of the predictins I'm not suprised!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 coolabuaile


    Carnage indeed; dramatic! If I had a small proportion of my savings tied up in gold I'd hold onto it, sit back and see what happens. If I had invested a huge chunk of my savings in gold, however, I'd be very depressed right now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    What is happening in the gold and silver markets right now is due to the "hope" that the global economy (especially the US) will rebound in the second half of 2013. Let's wait and see if this "rebound" actually happens. Alongside this, a lot of weird things are happening in the gold market lately - huge sellers of gold in one day exceeding the annual production of the metal. It looks like central banks are trying to suppress gold and silver, then come out and say "Hey, the economy's recovering! And look, even gold and silver are going down!"

    The fundamentals are still there, and in my opinion, the people who are patient and wait will be rewarded.

    Like, seriously, people are raving about central banks (i.e. the Fed) reducing or stopping QE altogether. This cannot happen, because then interest rates will go through the roof and inflation will become a huge problem. In this scenario, people will be scared out of bonds, pissing themselves as they sell their stocks and where will they go then? Probably gold and silver.

    The price of metals right now is being controlled by speculators, people who can only see one week in the future. These people do not acknowledge the fundamentals of an asset, only what today's news has to do about it. The recent moves in gold and silver have been due to pieces of news that people find worthy enough to change their mind about their investment portfolios.

    It all goes back to a recovering economy. The ONLY reason the world is not underwater right now is due to low interest rates and money printing. The ECB will soon join the currency war if they continue to fail to devalue the Euro through other means (The Cyrus crisis - the only reason this happened, in my opinion, was to try to devalue the Euro without printing currency. Look at the value now, it hasn't changed!). When Draghi decides to start buying Gov bonds I think this will spark a rebound in commodity prices because it will appear that there will be no end in sight for this currency war currently underway.

    My 2 cents, I'm keeping my Silver btw, and I'm not worried about the long-term prospects of my investment. In fact, I'm still very optimistic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    Carnage indeed; dramatic! If I had a small proportion of my savings tied up in gold I'd hold onto it, sit back and see what happens. If I had invested a huge chunk of my savings in gold, however, I'd be very depressed right now.

    Not a good idea to do this with any investment! Not only would you be depressed, you'd be very foolish and kicking yourself right now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    if i had gold.

    1)id sell @1400$(or maybe less)

    2) id buy in again, if it went to $1500(small sacrifice)

    3)if not id enjoy the slide and buy in @$1000(or less)

    but i dont own it or want it,bad investment now!

    and those with the "fever "will ignore this.....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    It looks like central banks are trying to suppress gold and silver, then come out and say "Hey, the economy's recovering! And look, even gold and silver are going down!"
    The Central Banks have better things to be doing than trying to make goldbugs look stupid.

    We've been hearing about this "rampant inflation" to come for years now, and if anything we're still stuck close to deflation. Where is this inflation you speak of? There's massive under-utilisation of resources in the world economy, and workers are not about to get massive pay rises any time soon considering the numbers unemployed. So where is the inflation going to come from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    hmmm wrote: »
    The Central Banks have better things to be doing than trying to make goldbugs look stupid.

    We've been hearing about this "rampant inflation" to come for years now, and if anything we're still stuck close to deflation. Where is this inflation you speak of? There's massive under-utilisation of resources in the world economy, and workers are not about to get massive pay rises any time soon considering the numbers unemployed. So where is the inflation going to come from?

    Central banks are very interested in suppressing the gold price. If gold were to increase to $3000, the world economy would likely lose interest in fiat currencies as a form of trade. If numerous countries (many have already e.g. India buying Iranian oil) were to flock to gold as a form of trade for resources e.g. oil, the petrodollar paradigm would completely collapse. Here is an interesting article I found relating to this: http://www.moneynewsnow.com/2013/02/will-hoarding-of-gold-by-russia-china-collapse-u-s-economy/

    Deflation?! When's the last time you heard people being excited about cheaper groceries or cheaper electricity?! Inflation is closer to 10% than the bullsh!t CPI of less than 2%. How can you measure inflation without accounting for energy or food?! THE MOST IMPORTANT PRICES ORDINARY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT! Governments seem to have no problem leaving them out though, I wonder why? :) Look at stock prices, money printing wouldn't have anything to do about that, would it? Because the Fed targets asset prices, it tends to start in those areas that we don’t normally associate as inflationary. Let’s face it, no one is really going to freak out about a rising stock market, but that is the first sign of inflation. The Fed’s liquidity has to land on something, and it usually starts in the stock market first. Unfortunately it always eventually ends up in the commodity markets. Now, look back to 2008 - big increase in stock prices, stocks fall, commodities increase. We are going through this cycle again, except the amount of money flowing into commodities this time is going to be much greater due to huge QE programs exercised by the Fed and other central banks. Same goes for housing, don't even make me start talking about housing!

    So, yeah, that's where "the inflation" is coming from - it's already here, but you haven't noticed it yet.

    The current situation in the gold market, in my opinion, is actually good. I have a very good understanding of how markets work technically, and it appears that recent activity is good for gold (and silver). What's happened now is most speculators and "weak" holders of gold have been washed away. This is brilliant for gold for when it makes it way upwards again. I think we are going to see a huge spike in gold on the next move upwards, probably followed by another dip in 2015/16 and then a move upwards into bubble territory. I looks like gold is forming a V-Shaped dip. The Nasdaq in 98 and Oil in 07 are unbelievably similar to gold in the way that they had a washout followed by a bubble.

    All I'll say is - sit tight and you'll come out on top in the end. In all honesty though, if you were a Cypriot, would you prefer to have had gold which had a rough move downwards recently or would you prefer to have "fiat", worthless paper money being stolen from you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 coolabuaile


    DarkDusk: Some great opinions, I agree. My only financial interest in the yellow metal is panning for it; I get to spend the day in the great outdoors with my family and get the odd gram or so for the cost of my petrol and a picnic:-) I do have some silver which I bought years ago and intend to hold on to as a long term fail-safe. Also an interesting article was published by Kitco recently which hints at growing interest in physical silver. https://news.goldcore.com/news As you said: the market is based heavily on futures. As far as I'm concerned there is at least some manipulation in the precious metals markets and this is just prolonging the inevitable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭neil.p.b


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    What's happened now is most speculators and "weak" holders of gold have been washed away. This is brilliant for gold for when it makes it way upwards again.

    THIS.

    When gold was soaring a couple of years ago and every PI/Gambler thought the sky was the limit for it and it became destined to tumble. Just how the market works.

    Gold still has a way to go before it turns north again. We're likely to be at or close to an interim bottom but any move north will be temporary over the next few months and chop up and down before a final spike down later this/early next year. I don't think we'll see the hundreds but 1100-1200 possible before an almighty run north past 2000.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    euroboom13 wrote: »
    if i had gold.

    1)id sell @1400$(or maybe less)

    2) id buy in again, if it went to $1500(small sacrifice)

    Sell low, buy higher?
    That's a smashing investment plan, I have to say.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    All I'll say is - sit tight and you'll come out on top in the end. In all honesty though, if you were a Cypriot, would you prefer to have had gold which had a rough move downwards recently or would you prefer to have "fiat", worthless paper money being stolen from you?

    Speaking of Cyprus, I understand the ECB has requested Cyprus liquidate its gold to pay its share of the bailout/in. The cynic in me would be feeling somewhat depressed for Cyprus given the latest knockdown in gold coming before they had a chance to do so. I hope for their sake they locked in a set amount in tonnes rather than denominated in euro, but I bet they didn't/couldn't.
    Personally, I'm less optimistic about gold than about other things, specifically silver, rare earths and oil. The silver and rare earths have additional industrial uses and markets which gold doesn't really, and due to the circumstances of their mining, they are actually a lot more scarce than many people realise. (Unless fracking becomes commonplace, China opens up export of rare earths and the silver mines are made viable again - all of which require higher prices, imho.)
    While I do believe gold is set for an upswing, I'm more interested in these other trades. The fundamentals, long-term, for gold are good, but the volatility in the market cautions against amateurs trying to daytrade, and will shake a lot of weak hands out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Roonbox


    hmmm wrote: »
    The Central Banks have better things to be doing than trying to make goldbugs look stupid.

    We've been hearing about this "rampant inflation" to come for years now, and if anything we're still stuck close to deflation. Where is this inflation you speak of? There's massive under-utilisation of resources in the world economy, and workers are not about to get massive pay rises any time soon considering the numbers unemployed. So where is the inflation going to come from?

    I'm not sure where you shop but where I am everything is getting more expensive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    Sell low, buy higher?
    That's a smashing investment plan, I have to say.


    damage limitation........my investment plan is stay clear of gold......my post was to incourage caution......i`ts not going to 1500 for sometime so the negative end of my post will never happen....

    smashing reply


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    Sell low, buy higher?
    That's a smashing investment plan, I have to say.

    Yip,sterling stuff,repeat till broke:eek::D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Can you buy large quantities of physical gold for this price or only paper gold?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    There's a simple reason for the dramatic decline in the price of the yella stuff,BITCOINS ,its the new safe haven ,you heard it here first.:P:P:P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    Icepick wrote: »
    Can you buy large quantities of physical gold for this price or only paper gold?

    You wont buy physical gold at the spot price,have a look at www.bullionbypost.co.uk ,mouth watering stuff .


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    There's a simple reason for the dramatic decline in the price of the yella stuff,BITCOINS ,its the new safe haven ,you heard it here first.:P:P:P.

    If there was any chance of bitcoin becoming a credible safe haven, it would get smashed to the floor too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    If there was any chance of bitcoin becoming a credible safe haven, it would get smashed to the floor too.

    while ye boys are busy patting each others backs in ur air raid shelters ,the smart ones are picking up cash up off the ground in the equity field......
    ...war is over ,get back to the upward only reality our goverments refuse to leave behind......(or fill ur boots with that safe haven stuff and perish )

    rant over but seriously ....get in front of something new,dont copy old winners....dangerous and cowardly


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    sorry wrong quote....agree with cavehill red.....to others


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  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    I wish I took the leap and bought some bitcoins for €18 each about 3 months ago... I was only going to invest money I was willing to lose of course. Definitely wouldn't buy any now though.

    All I'll say about bitcoins is - only invest what you are willing to lose, because there is a very high possibility that you could lose 100% of your investment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    euroboom13 wrote: »
    while ye boys are busy patting each others backs in ur air raid shelters ,the smart ones are picking up cash up off the ground in the equity field......
    ...war is over ,get back to the upward only reality our goverments refuse to leave behind......(or fill ur boots with that safe haven stuff and perish )

    rant over but seriously ....get in front of something new,dont copy old winners....dangerous and cowardly

    So what is your current investment portfolio? Which equities have been big winners for you lately?

    Your attitude towards the stock market resembles the attitude people had to property pre-2008. "Upward only reality" - that really cracked me up!

    ----

    The graph is the most important thing on this site: http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/45866929363/yep-qe-is-propping-up-the-stock-market
    Investing in something that relies solely on the printing of money by central banks is not a good investment if you ask me. Gold differs, because if interest rates are raised this will eventually make money flow into commodities, especially PM's (as I've explained above). Either way, gold and silver will win in the long term. The Fed cannot continue to destroy the dollar and not expect and consequences to accompany their actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭stackerman


    I'm growing tired of people suggesting that the gold Market is definitely not manipulated, and any suggestion that it may be is folly.

    Could I ask if they would even admit the Bond Market is rigged ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    stackerman wrote: »
    I'm growing tired of people suggesting that the gold Market is definitely not manipulated, and any suggestion that it may be is folly.

    Could I ask if they would even admit the Bond Market is rigged ?

    Conspiracy theorist!!!! Wait... No, I mean - Conspiracy Factist!

    Very interesting piece, well worth the read - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-14/qe-4-folks-aint-normal-what-you-need-know-about-feds-latest-move


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    The arguments for and against gold have long been played out and they haven't changed.
    Pro: "real" money, 5,000 years of history as means of exchange, relative scarcity, popularity in the East, hedge against inflation/economic uncertainty
    Con: barbarous relic, you can't eat it, no dividend, security risk of holding and moral hazard risk in paper or storage, volatile market, probably manipulated.
    Any play on gold, long or short, must now be a long-term one. Buy and hold or ignore and walk away. Short term hands and traders will get wiped on this.
    Personally, I believe in the fundamentals supporting gold, but as I said, I prefer silver for reasons previously stated. And I don't trade the metals market as they're clearly rigged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    So what is your current investment portfolio? Which equities have been big winners for you lately?

    Your attitude towards the stock market resembles the attitude people had to property pre-2008. "Upward only reality" - that really cracked me up!

    ----

    The graph is the most important thing on this site: http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/45866929363/yep-qe-is-propping-up-the-stock-market
    Investing in something that relies solely on the printing of money by central banks is not a good investment if you ask me. Gold differs, because if interest rates are raised this will eventually make money flow into commodities, especially PM's (as I've explained above). Either way, gold and silver will win in the long term. The Fed cannot continue to destroy the dollar and not expect and consequences to accompany their actions.
    "upward only reality".....goverments need positive growth....otherwise there debt increases......crack up

    ....it IS how it works inflation most be greater than interest rates...
    So what we`re seeing now doesnt work for goverment debt...hence the struggle...but it will be fixed and equities will be the winner.

    my equity is mainly bank related......zero return high risk....slow burner but WILL be where everyone runs to in a couple of years ...

    Not looking for any reassurance on my investments.......just knocking the edges off bullish gold bugs....time WILL prove


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    So what is your current investment portfolio? Which equities have been big winners for you lately?

    Your attitude towards the stock market resembles the attitude people had to property pre-2008. "Upward only reality" - that really cracked me up!

    ----

    The graph is the most important thing on this site: http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/45866929363/yep-qe-is-propping-up-the-stock-market
    Investing in something that relies solely on the printing of money by central banks is not a good investment if you ask me. Gold differs, because if interest rates are raised this will eventually make money flow into commodities, especially PM's (as I've explained above). Either way, gold and silver will win in the long term. The Fed cannot continue to destroy the dollar and not expect and consequences to accompany their actions.
    Property market was on the high end of a 20 year boom.....similar to gold....I`m telling people to get in at the bottom of a collasped european stock market ......zero similarity to (2008).........buy more gold/bitcoin you deserve it ...treat yourself


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Roonbox


    euroboom13 wrote: »
    "upward only reality".....goverments need positive growth....otherwise there debt increases......crack up

    ....it IS how it works inflation most be greater than interest rates...
    So what we`re seeing now doesnt work for goverment debt...hence the struggle...but it will be fixed and equities will be the winner.

    my equity is mainly bank related......zero return high risk....slow burner but WILL be where everyone runs to in a couple of years ...

    Not looking for any reassurance on my investments.......just knocking the edges off bullish gold bugs....time WILL prove

    We couldn't have more different views..


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭euroboom13


    Roonbox wrote: »
    We couldn't have more different views..
    for the record my view is....and not looking for debate
    oil down to less than...$80
    gold less than $1000

    equities =dow j up ..17000..$ back to e1.40
    ftse up...7500
    iseq up

    financial crisis in the middle east..(saudi,iran....caused by cheap oil,and poor gold prices,,,income stolen)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Roonbox


    euroboom13 wrote: »
    for the record my view is....and not looking for debate
    oil down to less than...$80
    gold less than $1000

    equities =dow j up ..17000..$ back to e1.40
    ftse up...7500
    iseq up

    financial crisis in the middle east..(saudi,iran....caused by cheap oil,and poor gold prices,,,income stolen)

    I think we will see Dow 10,000 again, prob lower, Nasdaq 2000..

    I think Commodities will also fall at that time but not to the same degree, You could be right with gold at 1000.

    I am waiting for a selling climax in the SM to purchase silver, hopefully before the end of the year.


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