The way forward for LC2021

You would wonder if, after probably two months out of school, getting LC students to sit a mock exam as soon as they return is fair and reasonable. It sounds more like schools desperately trying to gather data rather than serving the needs of either teacher or student at that point. Presumably the only way they will really be able to do themselves justice with such immediate effect is if they are given a huge steer in advance on what's coming up which surely undermines the objective credibility of the grades they get.

Surely there is an argument for (assuming schools go back in early March) giving mocks maybe in early May - which would keep students engaged and could be treated as a de facto LC for those who are looking for predicted grades. It would not necessarily have to count for the full 100% even of a predicted grade or predicted portion of a grade.

Obviously there is the basic reality that all schools would have to do them simultaneously but would that be beyond the wit of man to organise? Maybe I am making it all sound easier than it would be, and also not giving enough credit to teachers for what would usually be a very good stab anyway at where a student falls in terms of grade/standard no matter how they arrive at them. I just would be concerned about the fairness or need for students to walk straight into an exam just after arriving back.

I find it somewhat disturbing our resistance to radically changing our educational system, it no longer truly serves us, covid is a perfect opportunity to do so, but here we are.....

Smacruairi wrote:

It's about getting fundamentals in several subjects, learning hard work, determination, resilience, and negotiation. It also has a bit of pressure to introduce students to the realities of life. It's not as outdated as people think.

By God it is, it's primarily rote learning, it teaches kids, in order to be successful you must continually work hard, and if you don't bring that work home with you, you 'll be a failure, being competitive is far more important than being cooperative, being yourself is frowned upon, it encourages herd mentality, I.e. similar thinking, then at the end of it all, how prepared are you truly for adulthood? Jesus, what are we doing to kids!

Mrsmum wrote: »

A lot of them only did one subject, I think three was the most subjects undertaken. No one did the full LC. So it's neither here nor there regarding written LC over PG imo.

I know a girl that did I think 5 or 6 subjects. So you can't just dismiss the grades. Bar a couple of subjects, the project was not included, the exams were 100% written.

Rosita wrote: »

You would wonder if, after probably two months out of school getting LC students to sit a mock exam as soon as they return is fair and reasonable. It sounds more like schools desperately trying to gather data rather than serving the needs of either teacher or student at that point. Presumably the only will really be able t do themselves justice with such immediate effect is if they are given a huge steer in advance on what's coming up which surely undermines the objective credibility of the grades they get.

Surely there is an argument for (assuming schools go back in early March) giving mocks maybe in early May - which would keep students engaged and could be treated as a de facto LC for those who are looking for predicted grades. It would not necessarily have to count for the full 100% even of a predicted grade or predicted portion of a grade.

Obviously there is the basic reality that all schools would have to do them simultaneously but would that be beyond the wit of man to organise? Maybe I am making it all sound easier than it would be, and also not giving enough credit to teachers for what would usually be a very good stab anyway at where a student falls in terms of grade/standard no matter how they arrive at them. I just would be concerned about the fairness or need for students to walk straight into an exam just after arriving back.

Totally pointless running mocks in May. The whole point of them is to get a sense of where they are at and what areas they need to improve on. Having mocks that late would be like a de facto leaving cert so the teachers could use the results for "predictive" grades. If the mocks cannot be run before Easter and graded as quickly as possible, then it would be better to use the time for classes, finishing practical projects, planning the run into the actual leaving cert etc.

Mrsmum wrote: »

Following on from Nov results just released, would there be anything to be said for all students doing the written LC in Irish,English and Maths and predictive grades in the other subjects?
Also just out of curiosity, are some subjects easier to give a Pg for than others ie Maths easier than English ? Music easier than History ? Or all equally as difficult ?.

Not all students would consider English, Irish and Maths their best subjects - or worst depending on what way you want to look at exams v predicted grades.

It's as difficult to predict a grade in any subject. You know a student's ability, you know how they have scored in class tests on the day. You give your best estimation based on that, but it could go either way on the day. There are students every year who surprise their teachers by pulling a higher grade out of the bag, equally there are students who make a complete mess of the paper and score lower than expected.

Mrsmum wrote: »

But 60% got a better grade without ever sitting the exam at all. Can you not see how that will be read.

Well if you want to go down that route, then couldn't the DES go, 'well we let them away lightly last year, now we have reasonable justification to clamp down on the predicted grades this year and pull them down'. By your own argument, most students did only 1 or 2 subjects, so surely when they had months to prepare for that subject they should have been able to pull it out of the bag.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think it shows that perhaps their teachers were very generous.
As for some kind of revenge tactic from the DES, I would hope they are more mature than that.
Bottom line is the results today are not a major selling point to students for doing written exams.

It would be disingenuous to see it as revenge. There was no experience of doing this before last year. The grades were inflated last year. The majority of students who sat the written exams did not improve on the predicted grade. It would point to justification for tweaking it further this year, rather than revenge.

Wombatman wrote: »

As expected, CAO applications hit record levels. More misery for the 2021 LCs as they will probably require higher points to secure a college place. They will be up against many 2020 LCs who's points will be made up of predicted grades. The 2020 LCs will get offered places first, leaving fewer places for the 2021 LCs.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/cao-applications-hit-record-levels-40038770.html

Wow! Nearly 80,000 applicants. I thought it would be high but not that high, it was usually around 60k no?

Treppen wrote: »

Wow! Nearly 80,000 applicants. I thought it would be high but not that high, it was usually around 60k no?

It typically would be, the ones who sat the winter LC can't account for all of it as there was only 2000-2500 students registered for the exams from what was reported a couple of months back.

Population is increasing, students might be thinking twice about going abroad with covid being the major factor, students might not be looking at the UK as an option this year due to Brexit. And I presume some students decided to wait it out last year.

79k is massive though.

With numbers like that I think it puts in perspective predicted grades v written exams. There will be huge competition for places regardless of how grades are decided.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I find it somewhat disturbing our resistance to radically changing our educational system, it no longer truly serves us, covid is a perfect opportunity to do so, but here we are.....

I think this is cliched nonsense. In what way does it not "truly serve us"? What is it supposed to achieve?

Leaving aside the educational variety provided by schools, by and large the LC seems quite successful in rewarding people who are relatively intelligent and hard-working and ensuring that they go forward to courses and careers which they are capable of undertaking. In my experience students in general terms get from the LC what they deserve based on what I have seen from them in the classroom in the context of the combination of demonstrated work-ethic, apparent intelligence, and specific aptitude. The LC seems to measure these aspects quite well in my experience though the outcomes doesn't suit many people because they are stuck with the consequences and let's face it, it's quite a personal judgement of someone.

I know lots of people who find terminal exams stressful simply because they haven't the work-ethic to prepare for them. Why wouldn't they be stressed? Sometimes it's lamented as a "memory test" which is another get-out clause for the lazy underachieving. It's nearly impossible to set an exam of any description which does not have a memory aspect, but since when has the ability to remember stuff become a bad thing?

And if anyone thinks that continuous assessment will unleash a previously pent-up bunch of critical thinkers who will thrive when the dreaded terminal exam is dispensed with they are delusional. Many of these will have to be chased to complete this work. At least with the LC the onus is on them to show up and do it or not.

History Queen wrote: »

We correct our own mocks in our school every year. A small few send out for correction but it is very much the exception.

Same with us. Some people make their own mock papers too.

Why are they comparing Today's students LC grades to Predicted Grades on RTE?
I thought it was Calculated grades!!!