MGTOW = “men going their own way”

25-09-2020 1:56pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

In fairness to all concerned, marriage is a life long contract.

Unless you're female. The law is definitely still skewed to protect women coming out of marriage, to provide for them, and the custody of children from that marriage.

The simple truth is that marriage is a major risk, with serious downsides for males. You might, as a male, believe yourself willing to go the full mile, but there's plenty of examples that your woman won't feel the same way... ultimately, with you paying through the nose for it.

The fact remains that the law remains on the side of the family, rightly so.

Except, the family places the mother/wife at the center of the family, which is why most cases favor women far more than men. There's an important distinction there. Saying that it's family orientated ignores the very real favoritism that exists.

Any man getting married needs to be aware of the contract and if he is planning on children he is looking at at least a 20-25 year sentence. The law may appear unfair, but no man can crib once he has taken the vows.

I am not picking sides here either, but men need to know the consequences of marriage.

It is a leap of faith and it is the responsibility of both partners to enable a successful marriage, this may not work, but men need to make firm decisions before they go there.

It's not just marriage. Men need to be away of social contracts. Living together for a number of years (cohabitation) can place you in similar constraints, and again, with the courts favoring women's needs/claims over that of men.

I'm a hopeless romantic, and I believe in marriage as an institution, but I won't ever get married under the current setup. It's not that there's no benefit for men... it's that there is so little impartial justice. Just as I'd be very careful of cohabitation or any 'serious'/long-term relationships.

All men should be speaking to a solicitor to be sure of what they're getting themselves into, and how to protect themselves... because left simply to the courts/law, you'll be screwed.

Mongfinder General · 25-09-2020 2:59pm

iptba wrote: »

Interesting. Though there is a reasonable chance she might push for a divorce before that.

True but then it's her who wants to end the marriage and not you. You will need to play the poor mouth. You have no money and nowhere to go.

Mongfinder General · 25-09-2020 3:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unless you're female. The law is definitely still skewed to protect women coming out of marriage, to provide for them, and the custody of children from that marriage.

The simple truth is that marriage is a major risk, with serious downsides for males. You might, as a male, believe yourself willing to go the full mile, but there's plenty of examples that your woman won't feel the same way... ultimately, with you paying through the nose for it.

Except, the family places the mother/wife at the center of the family, which is why most cases favor women far more than men. There's an important distinction there. Saying that it's family orientated ignores the very real favoritism that exists.

It's not just marriage. Men need to be away of social contracts. Living together for a number of years (cohabitation) can place you in similar constraints, and again, with the courts favoring women's needs/claims over that of men.

I'm a hopeless romantic, and I believe in marriage as an institution, but I won't ever get married under the current setup. It's not that there's no benefit for men... it's that there is so little impartial justice. Just as I'd be very careful of cohabitation or any 'serious'/long-term relationships.

All men should be speaking to a solicitor to be sure of what they're getting themselves into, and how to protect themselves... because left simply to the courts/law, you'll be screwed.

Interested in your thoughts on this. You've written that "It's not that there's no benefit for men". What benefits do you see?

iptba · 25-09-2020 4:32pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

True but then it's her who wants to end the marriage and not you. You will need to play the poor mouth. You have no money and nowhere to go.

Not sure it matters much in terms of maintenance, child support, etc.?

Mongfinder General · 25-09-2020 6:37pm

iptba wrote: »

Not sure it matters much in terms of maintenance, child support, etc.?

If the husband plays the wounded victim it may help his case. The shock of his wife telling him that he is no longer wanted can have a negative impact on his mental health. Stress, anxiety etc should be assessed by a medical professional. Attending counselling should be next step. All of this buys the husband time to think and document. Depending on the employer it may be worth going out on stress related sick leave with a Doctor's note. The husband could cover this by taking regular annual leave. If a three day working week could be facilitated for a temporary period, this will help lower the husbands liability to a means test. If this coincides with a date in the family law court, all the better.

How much this matters is in the gift of the judge on the day. If you go in there swinging with a barrister in tow you will get slaughtered. That shows you have means. You need to able to manipulate the circumstances to your advantage while at a minimum trying to ensure your kids are not put at a disadvantage. Tricky.

25-09-2020 6:51pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Interested in your thoughts on this. You've written that "It's not that there's no benefit for men". What benefits do you see?

Protection? The same benefits in marriage that are available for women should also be available for men. Benefits = equality. It's a shame to think that way, since it should be an obvious part of marriage, but in this age we live in, actual equality without imposed emotional constructs (in opposition to what feminists actually wanted, but never fought against, except when it didn't suit them)...

Marriage is still a contract between two consenting parties. If it was managed as a business contract, devoid of emotional entanglements, then we'd be seeing more equality being applied, and less focus on the need to protect women. Which is why we see so much movement to enforce the need for men to provide for women even after the marriage is ended... in spite of the fact that women can work, and earn the same as men.. (in cases, where a man is raising a child without the mother being present, there's little pressure on the mother to provide financial supports) Ultimately the reason that many women don't work during and after a marriage comes down to choice, not due to women being unable to make comparable incomes.

I'd like to see actual equality being brought into play. That would be a benefit of marriage. The assurance that your case for divorce because your wife cheated on you, had an abortion without your consent, got pregnant without your consent, etc would be judged not based on your gender, but the details of the case... because the simple fact is that divorce, and family settlements still favor women far more than they do men.

Wibbs · 25-09-2020 7:48pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

If the husband plays the wounded victim it may help his case. The shock of his wife telling him that he is no longer wanted can have a negative impact on his mental health.

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

25-09-2020 7:58pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I think it's pretty standard advice for any man facing a divorce to take out a loan to upgrade the car, make regular cash withdrawals to be "frittered away in the pub/bookies" and generally use any means at their disposal to limit what the court sees as your "disposable" income in order to minimise the financial impact of a divorce. The sad reality for many is no matter what they do, they simply can't afford to leave a marriage: one decent income can be stretched to support a household, it can't cover two. And in most households where there's only one income, or only one substantial income, it's the man who'll be earning it. I'm fortunate in that we have a happy marriage but I'm under no illusions that were things to go wrong, I'd be destitute.

Women are encouraged to keep money for themselves in case they need to start again. Men are being selfish if they do the same.

Wibbs wrote: »

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

Yup. It's one of those memes that exists even though the opposite is true. Women get over and move on from stuff way quicker than guys do. They can handle being alone better (because they usually have the opposite option easily available if they want it).
Even just in a non-romantic case recently for me, a bill was in my name (still is) and I had to get on to 2 (former?) friends to be reimbursed. Both had deleted my bank details because they wanted to "move on". I still have phone numbers and bank details of people dead years because I've never felt the need to bother deleting them from a dropdown menu that I barely notice it in. But they are ready to "draw a line" and move on asap.
The other thing I think both you and I have covered at length on this site, how often do women have another guy lined up before ending a relationship? Men do it and it's basically considered cheating. A woman does it, she has everything lined up to flip the switch one day and move on.

iptba · 25-09-2020 8:36pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

From a blog on some UK statistics. It would cover various relationships, not just divorces:

Conclusions:

- Non-resident (payee) parents registered with the CMS* in Great Britain are far more likely to die than people of the same sex and age range in the general population, even taking account of the fact that non-resident parents are almost all men who have a substantially higher death rate than women anyway.

- From the most recent (2020) FOI, paying parents (~95% fathers) are about 72% more likely to die than randomly selected men of the same age in the general population.

- From the most recent (2020) FOI, paying parents (~95% fathers) are about 142% more likely to die than receiving parents (95% mothers).

- Based on the CMS* data the number of excess deaths in Great Britain of non-resident parents (95% fathers), i.e., in excess of expectation based on the general population of men of the same age, has been estimated to be 2,400.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=3468
*Child Maintenance Service

The blogger speculates that a lot of these deaths could be suicides.

completedit · 27-09-2020 12:13am

When love turned out to not be the romantic thing I was led to believe that was pretty much me done. I love getting to know girls; especially hot ones but come on, it just will end in tears so what's the point. Can't be bothered to pump and dump either. I wasn't set up for relationships ; the fact they eventually turn into an administrative arrangement just scares me. Just out of a year relationship and 31 now so can't see myself in another relationship. I only will go for a very certain type of girl with good looks and a good personality. If one comes around it would be great but won't be forcing it. I'm probably noticeably good looking on my day but am 5'8'' and introverted and my job sucks. My problem isn't with women, it's more relationships. We expect too much and eventually they become standard. What goes up must come down and nothing beats the initial stages when you hit your groove with someone you find hot. Sadly, there's only one way after that. I think the most successful relationships probably contain realists.

Mister Vain · 27-09-2020 3:55pm

completedit wrote: »

When love turned out to not be the romantic thing I was led to believe that was pretty much me done. I love getting to know girls; especially hot ones but come on, it just will end in tears so what's the point. Can't be bothered to pump and dump either. I wasn't set up for relationships ; the fact they eventually turn into an administrative arrangement just scares me. Just out of a year relationship and 31 now so can't see myself in another relationship. I only will go for a very certain type of girl with good looks and a good personality. If one comes around it would be great but won't be forcing it. I'm probably noticeably good looking on my day but am 5'8'' and introverted and my job sucks. My problem isn't with women, it's more relationships. We expect too much and eventually they become standard. What goes up must come down and nothing beats the initial stages when you hit your groove with someone you find hot. Sadly, there's only one way after that. I think the most successful relationships probably contain realists.

I feel the same. The longer I'm with someone the more their bad habits become glaringly obvious, and mine too I suppose. I have absolutely zero tolerance for drama which probably makes me terrible relationship material. It's just not as fun after the honeymoon period ends and you have to put in real effort to make it work. It can get exhausting after a while.

Irish_rat · 28-09-2020 9:35pm

There seems to be an overlap with the FIRE movement in some ways. If you want to be financially independent then no kids and probably no wedding is good if you want to go that way.

Hating women is loser level really though. Sure the social media love Island fake tan caked makeup types can be annoying but that is a small portion of the population.

28-09-2020 10:17pm

Irish_rat wrote: »

There seems to be an overlap with the FIRE movement in some ways. If you want to be financially independent then no kids and probably no wedding is good if you want to go that way.

Hating women is loser level really though. Sure the social media love Island fake tan caked makeup types can be annoying but that is a small portion of the population.

Just as those who hate women are also a small portion of the MGTOW population. Yes, there is anger and bitterness... which is understandable considering the legal system regarding divorce, child custody, and domestic abuse... but actual hate? not so much. Mostly it's frustration.

The problem is it's association with the internet... because the internet breeds extreme attitudes that generally aren't reflected in real life. Unless you're American, in which case, anything goes.

02-10-2020 12:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

Just as those who hate women are also a small portion of the MGTOW population. Yes, there is anger and bitterness... which is understandable considering the legal system regarding divorce, child custody, and domestic abuse... but actual hate? not so much. Mostly it's frustration.

Yeah like in the linked thread ya can see pretty quickly that female frustration is just that, frustration and is always completely justified. :pac:

02-10-2020 8:52am

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah like in the linked thread ya can see pretty quickly that female frustration is just that, frustration and is always completely justified. :pac:

Oh, I would say that in many cases, women's frustrations are entirely justified. There are an awful lot of Asshats in any society of both genders. The problem with modern society is the idea of #ibelieveher which extends to many areas of society and rests entirely on the woman's gender rather than the actual circumstances of the individuals.

03-10-2020 8:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, I would say that in many cases, women's frustrations are entirely justified. There are an awful lot of Asshats in any society of both genders. The problem with modern society is the idea of #ibelieveher which extends to many areas of society and rests entirely on the woman's gender rather than the actual circumstances of the individuals.

Aye but here's the thing, if my male mates were saying stuff like the ones in that thread are saying I'd probably ask why they're staying with someone they're so incompatible with. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because women can make any issue be a "big" issue and it's acceptable.
Reminds me of hearing on the radio that women were bearing the brunt of Covid in Ireland. "Jesus that's strange" I thought and I listened on. Of course it was based on a survey and women felt worse about the whole situation and that makes the news. Men were getting it more and dying more but women were more worried and that was enough for it to be stated that they're bearing the brunt.
With that thread the way things are framed aren't "yeah it annoys me a bit but I'm sure I annoy them too" as most guys I know in LTRs are, it's basically "I feel like I do more, he's a manchild" etc. If things were as bad as implied by many of those posters do I think they'd still be in those relationships?

03-10-2020 10:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Aye but here's the thing, if my male mates were saying stuff like the ones in that thread are saying I'd probably ask why they're staying with someone they're so incompatible with. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because women can make any issue be a "big" issue and it's acceptable.

Actually, I'd say it's more to do with how society has changed, but many perspectives about women haven't. The sexual liberation changed a lot for both men and women, along with the perception of what is important in choosing a partner. Previously, people were more inclined to get married due to practical reasons such as wealth, security, status... but also friendship. There was a greater focus on things which men could bring to the table, so to speak. However, with the sexual liberation, and equality, we saw a shift away from that. Women could earn their own money, had freedom over sex, and the rise of the advertising/consumerism industry, meant a greater focus on essentially superficial attributes like beauty, and... well... sex. Along with the focus on "love" as if it's a human right. I can remember my grandmother laughing hysterically, at the idea of love... a love with someone you didn't know for longer than a decade. Different perspectives.... People these days have a good fck, and half the time, think they're in love. It's ridiculous.

In other words, people got married or went into relationships for the wrong reasons, often not courting each other long enough to really understand what they were getting themselves into. I know couples who barely know each other, because they both work so much, and yet , they're expecting to get married soon.

Reminds me of hearing on the radio that women were bearing the brunt of Covid in Ireland. "Jesus that's strange" I thought and I listened on. Of course it was based on a survey and women felt worse about the whole situation and that makes the news. Men were getting it more and dying more but women were more worried and that was enough for it to be stated that they're bearing the brunt.

Feminism. Women are always victims. Even when they're not.

With that thread the way things are framed aren't "yeah it annoys me a bit but I'm sure I annoy them too" as most guys I know in LTRs are, it's basically "I feel like I do more, he's a manchild" etc. If things were as bad as implied by many of those posters do I think they'd still be in those relationships?

Sure, they would. There's comfort in having what you have, and fear of being single again. If you've been in a relationship for an extended period, your weight will have slipped, sagging in various place, and your style won't be what's all that popular now. Oh, sure, you can still put out for cheap bad sex, but, where does that lead? Yup. Nowhere.

People like to complain. It doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.

Men, typically, age better than women... even in their early 30s.. so, men really could call women on their BS... but going back to being single? Most of my male friends have an awful fear of it, since they know (from me) that it's not all milk and honey. Being single around your 40s is fun for some, but definitely not fun for most. While I love being single.. at the same time, I know the clock is ticking. It's not easy.. it's not exactly hard either, but... some people really have a fear of being alone as they get older.

440Hertz · 04-10-2020 6:49pm

My advice is whether you’re straight, bi or gay : have female friends. Get to know women and stop thinking about the opposite sex as if it’s some great mystery or alien species. Have a pint! Have a laugh!

Some of my best buds are women and life would be a lot less rich if I hadn’t known them growing up and through college and work.

These Incel groups just strike me as strange ans psychologically damaged.

It also has nothing to do with being gay - a lot of gay and bi guys are the total opposite to that and tend to have no barriers around women and I think a lot of gay guys appreciate what it’s like to be on the wrong side of a conservative patriarchal society.

Usually, in my experience, it’s some straight guy with a warped view of the world and a chip on his shoulder about women whenever that came from.

PCeeeee · 04-10-2020 7:35pm

Irish_rat wrote: »

Hating women is loser level really though.

And this is where the real points that the men going their own way thing make seem to disintegrate a bit.

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

04-10-2020 9:22pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

And this is where the real points that the men going their own way thing make seem to disintegrate a bit.

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

Misery loves company. Ever join a few of your friends and get into a bitching session without really realising it. Online groups tend to be like that, especially, when they have a common theme to follow... invariably it'll turn to personal experiences, comforting each other, and calling the guilty party all manner of names.

If you ever browse through the feminist or divorced women newsgroups you'll often see similar or worse. It's human nature to see qualification/support from others, and bitching is one the best ways to do it.. especially when your life sucks.

Any male organisation is going to get a nasty reputation. That's a given. It'll be attacked by both feminists and the media, because men aren't allowed to complain... since we're still being punished for our ancestors mistreating women.. It's the time for women to do what they want, and the guys should just accept it. That's the way it was for the last two decades, and it's one of the main reasons for MGTOW getting such a bad rep. However, there is the darker side of MGTOW. It can be outright nasty and completely full of bile... but we should remember that we don't live in an equal society either... a lot of social/governmental organs favor women over men.

I'm not a member of MGTOW. I love women, and while I get frustrated with them at times, I recognise them as human, and so fallible.. or just bad people. It happens. I have friends who flirt with MGTOW, but won't commit to it, simply because they're not ready to give up on life... and let's face it, a lot of good experiences in life, tend to revolve around women...

04-10-2020 9:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Any male organisation is going to get a nasty reputation.

Not necessarily. What you can do is be a snivelling excuse for a man instead. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/men-should-be-taught-to-do-fair-share-of-housework-from-early-age-1.4370511
:pac:

I didn't quote the rest of your post but pretty much agree with the rest of it. My personal favourite is when I say women are just as x as men, x being a negative, and being told that shows I'm bitter and hate women.

Simple fact of the matter is girls love being friends with me (less so in the last couple of years as I've ****ed a few of them off :P ) and like to just leave a little thread there that maybe there's a chance. Mea culpa but again, guy's fault for falling for it, roles reversed and a guy is a bastard if he is in any way self-serving. Sorry, wait, when men do it they're manipulative. :pac:

04-10-2020 9:32pm

Reading the last couple of posts there I'm reminded of a particular poster here who's always like 'If people have an issue they should campaign' while simultaneously sneering/laughing at fathers rights groups and the like..

completedit · 04-10-2020 9:32pm

You have to realise for these people there's a lot of factors that cause them to be that way. As someone who uses the forums(I love the humour on them; the self-deprecating self hatred is something I find funny, a lot of the time it's pure hyperbole, e.g If you're not 6'4'' wide jawed muscle bound hunk with great complexion and a 6x6 just ****ing end it''

There's even some truth to these forums. At the end of the day they just surmise that 'attractive men get the girl' which is fairly true.

It's interesting talking to guys who aren't bitter tbh; they just must have no narcy traits like I and others do. I think a lot of people on those sites are vulnerable narcissists.

iptba · 04-10-2020 10:12pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

I agree that a lot of them are still attracted to women and often still want them. I think at least part of it is they are unhappy with the way men can be treated by the State when relationships end and are hoping it sufficient numbers opt of marriage, etc., it will change things. Whether this will ever happen, who knows.

john123470 · 10-10-2020 8:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

... but going back to being single? Most of my male friends have an awful fear of it, since they know (from me) that it's not all milk and honey. Being single around your 40s is fun for some, but definitely not fun for most. While I love being single.. at the same time, I know the clock is ticking. It's not easy.. it's not exactly hard either, but... some people really have a fear of being alone as they get older.

Fine, but marrying up, having kids is no guarantee that your life will be any better. You may marry and be more miserable than your miserable single self currently is.

You may then divorce - if you afford to - and jump thru hoops to get to see your offspring.

Your very offspring may end up causing you more grief than they are worth.

Or, you may marry up, have a truckload of kids and be the happiest chappy on the estate.

A lot of our problems arise from being unable to amuse ourselves without company, even bad company

In 1654, scientist and philosopher Blaise Pascal wrote: “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

10-10-2020 8:23pm

john123470 wrote: »

Fine, but marrying up, having kids is no guarantee that your life will be any better.

There is a risk in any decision. There's no guarantee for anything except dying at some point.

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

Human's are social creatures. Oh, I've heard various suggestions that people can go the whole way alone, but I think it's mostly BS. I'm very good alone (plenty of experience with it), but even then, I need human contact with others. Friendship works somewhat.. but intimacy with a romantic/sexual partner is pretty important too.. (as long you're biologically capable anyway)

Be practical. Recognise that you will want to be with women/men. It's not entirely about sex, although that is part of it. It's also about being with people who are decidedly different from yourself... too much of yourself and you'll go nuts.

john123470 · 10-10-2020 9:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a risk in any decision. There's no guarantee for anything ... too much of yourself and you'll go nuts.

Thats first time i heard about risk and man being a social animal. Thanks

I'm not saying man should live like a monk.

If intimate sexual relationships and marriage are where its at for you, then that is perfectly normal.
But it doesn't mean that everyone has to feel like this .. or that you call BS on those who don't agree

.. as for going nuts - too much of a bad wife and squealing kids can do that to you too. Ask married men

10-10-2020 9:30pm

john123470 wrote: »

Thats first time i heard about risk and man being a social animal. Thanks

I'm not saying man should live like a monk.

If intimate sexual relationships and marriage are where its at for you, then that is perfectly normal.
But it doesn't mean that everyone has to feel like this .. or that you call BS on those who don't agree

.. as for going nuts - too much of a bad wife and squealing kids can do that to you too. Ask married men

Any relationship carries risk. Live with a woman without marriage, and claims of cohabitation can be made, with you paying out the same way as if you'd just had a divorce. This is becoming common throughout the US and Europe. So, even without getting married, you can be held to paying for a broken contract that you never signed.

You can go without it all, just playing the field, but that get's incredibly tiresome after a while. Virtually, all the player types I know, have settled into relationships when approaching their 50s. Dating from that period onwards, doesn't have my return on investment... and is full of superficial connections that don't do much to satisfy appetites. so..

As for married men... that varies widely. I know people who have made it work for themselves extremely well. But then, they were careful in what they signed up for, and maintained constant communication throughout. They're a distinct minority though.

john123470 · 10-10-2020 10:23pm

. You don't leave much choice there, do you ..

Either co habit, play the field or hope to be the happy minority that get to Really love life

Problem with all this is that in your movie, there Must be skirt around the house ... otherwise you're fcked, so to speak.

I'm saying the occasional skirt around the house can be just as valid and satisfying an option. In my movie like ...

I like spices, you like ketchup i guess

10-10-2020 10:59pm

john123470 wrote: »

. You don't leave much choice there, do you ..

Either co habit, play the field or hope to be the happy minority that get to Really love life

Problem with all this is that in your movie, there Must be skirt around the house ... otherwise you're fcked, so to speak.

I'm saying the occasional skirt around the house can be just as valid and satisfying an option. In my movie like ...

I like spices, you like ketchup i guess

Nope. What I said is pretty open... people can live how they choose, and bear the consequences of those choices. Informed decisions, hopefully.

You're seeking to present a certain point of view... by using my posts. But it doesn't work that way.

I'm single, unmarried, although I still date somewhat. I know my options, and I know the possible consequences, taking precautions where needed. Risk mitigation. That's all it is really. The problem is that most guys don't do the proper research and preparation before committing to something.

Oh, and since I live, for the most part in Asia, I'm the one liking spices... and you the one liking ketchup.

(it also helps that the perception about age differences is vastly different to here, so I have a wider range of options, including the higher population sizes.)

john123470 · 10-10-2020 11:28pm

Shure you're on the pigs back ..

11-10-2020 12:20am

john123470 wrote: »

Shure you're on the pigs back ..

I have no idea what that means... and I'm quite content not knowing.

john123470 · 11-10-2020 6:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea what that means... and I'm quite content not knowing.

Ah ok, i see.

These are Irish idioms

..eg. You are "quite content not knowing" will be "Happy as a pig in sh1t" (sasta mar mhuc i cac)

"I have a wider range of options, including the higher population sizes"

Here we can say you are spoilt for choice / "on the pigs back" (Ar mhuin na muice)

I do envy you. Go get em, cowboy !

tylercheribini · 13-10-2020 12:35pm

How much of a long term relationship/marriage is just sharing rent with somebody so you don't have to move back in with the parents?

Mister Vain · 14-10-2020 8:56am

tylercheribini wrote: »

How much of a long term relationship/marriage is just sharing rent with somebody so you don't have to move back in with the parents?

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

Dickie10 · 14-10-2020 9:55am

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

Why would it matterif you are trying to meet someone? Like up til recently enough people lived at home with parents until they were a few months out from Marriage when they would have the house built or ready to buy and move in

IAMAMORON · 14-10-2020 10:15am

john123470 wrote: »

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

Once you break the barrier on this one you will not know yourself. It gives you much more personal freedom and you can do what you want , when you want, with your own personal time, not to be scoffed at.

My only advice, as a male, if you are travelling to touristy areas like the Costas and especially beach holidays to choose "adult only" accomodation, for obvious reasons. The last thing you need is kids screaming all around you when you are tucking into a nice novel at the swimming pool, or even worse, an over zealous protective parent sussing you out for 3-4 days before drunkenly accusing you of being a kiddy fiddler in the pub one night, you don't need it. Adult only hotels will also have more of an adult focus, so you can have a better time overall.

I have travelled on my own several times and once you get used to it and how to occupy yourself you will find companions a struggle to cope with!! Only messing here, but it can be rewarding to have the whole few days to yourself.

14-10-2020 10:49am

To be fair, people travelling solo is common, and if you really want to meet someone else, it's relatively easy to find others to travel or party with. One or two nights in the more popular hostels is a good idea, even if you intend on staying at hotels for the remainder. Hostels tend to provide the best way to meet other solo travelers or small groups. Considering how cheap hostels usually are, I'll often choose to stay a night in one if I'm alone in a city... most hostels will have rooms for single occupancy. A little more expensive than a hostel room, but better to avoid the thieving, the strangers rutting, and snoring. Just hang out in the bar area for a while, and you'll meet others quickly enough.

tylercheribini · 14-10-2020 10:59am

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

ha im still living at home and have no interest in getting into a relationship with anybody, I really dont care what 'society' says. My parents probably think otherwise but I do chip in with house duties etc.

eviltwin · 14-10-2020 12:44pm

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

I’d hope most people would be mature enough to know that this on its own isn’t a reason to dismiss someone. Personally I think living at home and saving is a positive attribute in a partner. Once they are not relying on their parents to mind them and live an independent life then it’s not an issue. The only downside is the lack of privacy but hopefully shouldn’t deter any sexual activity.

Mister Vain · 14-10-2020 7:22pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

Why would it matterif you are trying to meet someone? Like up til recently enough people lived at home with parents until they were a few months out from Marriage when they would have the house built or ready to buy and move in

Well for some women it can be a deal breaker. Although I suppose anyone who thinks that way wouldn't be someone I'd want to be with anyway. As eviltwin said, most people would be mature enough not to dismiss someone because of it.

iptba · 07-11-2020 3:14am

Millions Of Men No Longer Want To Get Married, And You Can Thank The Government For That
BY JULIANA STEWART·Nov 2nd 2020

https://www.eviemagazine.com/post/millions-of-men-no-longer-want-to-get-married-and-you-can-thank-the

This is from a publication for women. Interesting to see the arguments reach a wider audience.

440Hertz · 07-11-2020 2:54pm

To be quite honest I’m seeing this thread as being a bit ridiculous. Irish and American or even English divorces aren’t directly comparable. In the English system for example, and most US systems, there’s a requirement to find fault with your partner to begin a divorce hence the very aggressive and high cost cases. You have to find grounds for divorce and accuse someone of having an affair or quite frequently of “unreasonable behaviour” in English law for example and begin a highly confrontational and adversarial process.

Irish divorce law was extremely slow moving, at least until the recent referendum, but it was always designed to be a lot less confrontational and there’s no requirement to find fault, which is a huge difference.

As for the custody and access stuff, I’ve seen that go wrong for both genders and I’ve seen huge risks for women too. For example, I’m aware of several scenarios where a woman, who didn’t want any financial supports, has ended up having to grant a formerly abusive & even physically violent ex access to kids (under supervision) which results in enormous tensions for years.

In general, getting into a relationship and particularly having kids can have risks - so chose your partner wisely and carefully.

That being said, I also know several divorced couples who did so absolutely amicably, without any drama at all.

Also have the risks really risen?

Bare in mind until 1995 in Ireland, marriage was irrevocable - there was no divorce at all and a broken marriage used to carry enormous social stigma - I’ve relatives who’s marriages broke up in the 1970s and they basically had to emigrate as a result and lived in pretty much exile.

So if you think you’re at high risk either as a man or a woman getting married now, perhaps try and get a grip and a bit of perspective.

Marriage rates are likely also falling because it’s not as necessary as it once was. A lot of couples quite happily cohabit, have kids and get granted quite strong protection anyway, and there’s no longer any stigma to doing that anymore.

If you did that in the 1970s, even in the USA or U.K. and especially here in Ireland it would have carried enormous social stigma and being an “unmarried mother” here could literally have landed someone in an institution scrubbing laundry and forced, hidden adoption etc etc

So I don’t think Irish society has made marriage, relationships or having kids higher risk to anyone. If anything, the risks have drastically reduced.

I would tend to avoid extreme American online bubbles though as both culturally and legally it’s a very different place. They often marry far younger, as it’s more conservative and traditionalist than we are these days in many ways and they divorce more frequently as they make bad decisions.

The average marriage age in some of the US is still about 24-25. It’s about 30 in places like Massachusetts and New York, and it’s 34 to 36.4 in Ireland.

If you think about it, if someone here said they were married are 23 you’d be really raising a few eyebrows, whereas in the USA and even Canada that isn’t unusual at all.

Irish marriage age has gone way, way up, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s people making decisions with a lot of careful consideration.

07-11-2020 3:04pm

440Hertz wrote: »

Irish marriage age has gone way, way up, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s people making decisions with a lot of careful consideration.

Is it really?..has it not turned into women in their mid thirties realising they have to do it now if they want kids and anyone half reasonable will do?..

440Hertz · 07-11-2020 3:10pm

Average marriage age here in 2019 was 34.8 for women and 36.8 for men, making it the oldest in the world, yet we’ve one of the highest birth rates in Europe, even if our average age of first birth is 31.

We marry later than even Britain, France and Germany and our Nordic neighbours and almost 10 years older than many American states.

We are increasingly less and less like North America across a range of these metrics and more like other Northern Europe countries.

I don’t think it’s a case of anyone will do. It’s looking a lot more like having kids in Ireland happens first, and with a good degree of planning and caution, then they get married.

In most of my friends’ cases this is the sequence:

1) Get together in college days.
2) Loads of travel and career stuff and move in together.
3) Maybe get a mortgage
4) Get pregnant - have a baby or maybe two
5) Get married - and it’s often a meticulously planned event with a huge amount of effort and thought out into it and I would say 30% of marriages I’ve been to have been religious.

Ireland’s a very different place to what it was in the 70s and 80s and it’s also increasingly very different to the USA, less different to Britain and a lot more similar to say France, Belgium and Germany than we sometimes realise.

iptba · 07-11-2020 3:18pm

440Hertz wrote: »

Marriage rates are likely also falling because it’s not as necessary as it once was. A lot of couples quite happily cohabit, have kids and get granted quite strong protection anyway, and there’s no longer any stigma to doing that anymore.

Protections for who? Rights of support for women are responsibilities for men*.

*I’m not claiming the law isn’t technically gender neutral

07-11-2020 3:19pm

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2018/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20all%20marriages,when%2022%2C021%20marriages%20took%20place.

iptba · 07-11-2020 3:22pm

The average age of marriage includes second and subsequent marriages. A more relevant figure is the age at first marriage. I recall seeing data for it.

440Hertz · 07-11-2020 3:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2018/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20all%20marriages,when%2022%2C021%20marriages%20took%20place.

The 2019 ages of first marriage seem to have gone up and I would say 2020 & 2021 will be very unusual due to covid 19 restrictions.

However, those ages make us the latest to get married on average anywhere in the world.

440Hertz · 07-11-2020 3:38pm

You’ll really notice it though if you’re in the USA, particularly outside the NE and western states, it’s not unusual to encounter people of like 23 and 24 who are married.

In Ireland, Britain and most of Europe that would now be a bit surprising.

The days of Irish people getting married in their early 20s and having at least 4 kids are seemingly long gone.

The big risk in Ireland is we had a baby boom in the 70s and 80s that wasn’t accompanied by enormous emigration. So if you’re a 30 - 45 year old here you’re a “boomer” and the demographics are such that we aren’t going to have as big a population coming after us, so things could resemble Japan or Germany when were in our 70s, with a massive pension funding crisis.

That, or automation will have replaced most jobs and we will be fine on a smaller population. It’s hard to predict.

I’m not sure that were planned for or even thinking about an era when a large % of the population will be old though.

MGTOW = “men going their own way”

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