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Child Item

MGTOW = “men going their own way”

iptba

I know there is already a thread on men's rights, but really MGTOW is something quite specific and elsewhere on the Internet, discussions and discussion forums are very often separate.

Also, women can be interested in men's rights, just as men can be interested in women's rights and feminism, but MGTOW is pretty much just for men.

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Mister Vain

completedit wrote: »

When love turned out to not be the romantic thing I was led to believe that was pretty much me done. I love getting to know girls; especially hot ones but come on, it just will end in tears so what's the point. Can't be bothered to pump and dump either. I wasn't set up for relationships ; the fact they eventually turn into an administrative arrangement just scares me. Just out of a year relationship and 31 now so can't see myself in another relationship. I only will go for a very certain type of girl with good looks and a good personality. If one comes around it would be great but won't be forcing it. I'm probably noticeably good looking on my day but am 5'8'' and introverted and my job sucks. My problem isn't with women, it's more relationships. We expect too much and eventually they become standard. What goes up must come down and nothing beats the initial stages when you hit your groove with someone you find hot. Sadly, there's only one way after that. I think the most successful relationships probably contain realists.

I feel the same. The longer I'm with someone the more their bad habits become glaringly obvious, and mine too I suppose. I have absolutely zero tolerance for drama which probably makes me terrible relationship material. It's just not as fun after the honeymoon period ends and you have to put in real effort to make it work. It can get exhausting after a while.

Irish_rat

There seems to be an overlap with the FIRE movement in some ways. If you want to be financially independent then no kids and probably no wedding is good if you want to go that way.

Hating women is loser level really though. Sure the social media love Island fake tan caked makeup types can be annoying but that is a small portion of the population.

[Deleted User]

Irish_rat wrote: »

There seems to be an overlap with the FIRE movement in some ways. If you want to be financially independent then no kids and probably no wedding is good if you want to go that way.

Hating women is loser level really though. Sure the social media love Island fake tan caked makeup types can be annoying but that is a small portion of the population.

Just as those who hate women are also a small portion of the MGTOW population. Yes, there is anger and bitterness... which is understandable considering the legal system regarding divorce, child custody, and domestic abuse... but actual hate? not so much. Mostly it's frustration.

The problem is it's association with the internet... because the internet breeds extreme attitudes that generally aren't reflected in real life. Unless you're American, in which case, anything goes.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Just as those who hate women are also a small portion of the MGTOW population. Yes, there is anger and bitterness... which is understandable considering the legal system regarding divorce, child custody, and domestic abuse... but actual hate? not so much. Mostly it's frustration.

Yeah like in the linked thread ya can see pretty quickly that female frustration is just that, frustration and is always completely justified. :pac:

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah like in the linked thread ya can see pretty quickly that female frustration is just that, frustration and is always completely justified. :pac:

Oh, I would say that in many cases, women's frustrations are entirely justified. There are an awful lot of Asshats in any society of both genders. The problem with modern society is the idea of #ibelieveher which extends to many areas of society and rests entirely on the woman's gender rather than the actual circumstances of the individuals.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, I would say that in many cases, women's frustrations are entirely justified. There are an awful lot of Asshats in any society of both genders. The problem with modern society is the idea of #ibelieveher which extends to many areas of society and rests entirely on the woman's gender rather than the actual circumstances of the individuals.

Aye but here's the thing, if my male mates were saying stuff like the ones in that thread are saying I'd probably ask why they're staying with someone they're so incompatible with. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because women can make any issue be a "big" issue and it's acceptable.
Reminds me of hearing on the radio that women were bearing the brunt of Covid in Ireland. "Jesus that's strange" I thought and I listened on. Of course it was based on a survey and women felt worse about the whole situation and that makes the news. Men were getting it more and dying more but women were more worried and that was enough for it to be stated that they're bearing the brunt.
With that thread the way things are framed aren't "yeah it annoys me a bit but I'm sure I annoy them too" as most guys I know in LTRs are, it's basically "I feel like I do more, he's a manchild" etc. If things were as bad as implied by many of those posters do I think they'd still be in those relationships?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Aye but here's the thing, if my male mates were saying stuff like the ones in that thread are saying I'd probably ask why they're staying with someone they're so incompatible with. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because women can make any issue be a "big" issue and it's acceptable.

Actually, I'd say it's more to do with how society has changed, but many perspectives about women haven't. The sexual liberation changed a lot for both men and women, along with the perception of what is important in choosing a partner. Previously, people were more inclined to get married due to practical reasons such as wealth, security, status... but also friendship. There was a greater focus on things which men could bring to the table, so to speak. However, with the sexual liberation, and equality, we saw a shift away from that. Women could earn their own money, had freedom over sex, and the rise of the advertising/consumerism industry, meant a greater focus on essentially superficial attributes like beauty, and... well... sex. Along with the focus on "love" as if it's a human right. I can remember my grandmother laughing hysterically, at the idea of love... a love with someone you didn't know for longer than a decade. Different perspectives.... People these days have a good fck, and half the time, think they're in love. It's ridiculous.

In other words, people got married or went into relationships for the wrong reasons, often not courting each other long enough to really understand what they were getting themselves into. I know couples who barely know each other, because they both work so much, and yet , they're expecting to get married soon.

Reminds me of hearing on the radio that women were bearing the brunt of Covid in Ireland. "Jesus that's strange" I thought and I listened on. Of course it was based on a survey and women felt worse about the whole situation and that makes the news. Men were getting it more and dying more but women were more worried and that was enough for it to be stated that they're bearing the brunt.

Feminism. Women are always victims. Even when they're not.

With that thread the way things are framed aren't "yeah it annoys me a bit but I'm sure I annoy them too" as most guys I know in LTRs are, it's basically "I feel like I do more, he's a manchild" etc. If things were as bad as implied by many of those posters do I think they'd still be in those relationships?

Sure, they would. There's comfort in having what you have, and fear of being single again. If you've been in a relationship for an extended period, your weight will have slipped, sagging in various place, and your style won't be what's all that popular now. Oh, sure, you can still put out for cheap bad sex, but, where does that lead? Yup. Nowhere.

People like to complain. It doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.

Men, typically, age better than women... even in their early 30s.. so, men really could call women on their BS... but going back to being single? Most of my male friends have an awful fear of it, since they know (from me) that it's not all milk and honey. Being single around your 40s is fun for some, but definitely not fun for most. While I love being single.. at the same time, I know the clock is ticking. It's not easy.. it's not exactly hard either, but... some people really have a fear of being alone as they get older.

440Hertz

My advice is whether you’re straight, bi or gay : have female friends. Get to know women and stop thinking about the opposite sex as if it’s some great mystery or alien species. Have a pint! Have a laugh!

Some of my best buds are women and life would be a lot less rich if I hadn’t known them growing up and through college and work.

These Incel groups just strike me as strange ans psychologically damaged.

It also has nothing to do with being gay - a lot of gay and bi guys are the total opposite to that and tend to have no barriers around women and I think a lot of gay guys appreciate what it’s like to be on the wrong side of a conservative patriarchal society.

Usually, in my experience, it’s some straight guy with a warped view of the world and a chip on his shoulder about women whenever that came from.

PCeeeee

Irish_rat wrote: »

Hating women is loser level really though.

And this is where the real points that the men going their own way thing make seem to disintegrate a bit.

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

[Deleted User]

PCeeeee wrote: »

And this is where the real points that the men going their own way thing make seem to disintegrate a bit.

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

Misery loves company. Ever join a few of your friends and get into a bitching session without really realising it. Online groups tend to be like that, especially, when they have a common theme to follow... invariably it'll turn to personal experiences, comforting each other, and calling the guilty party all manner of names.

If you ever browse through the feminist or divorced women newsgroups you'll often see similar or worse. It's human nature to see qualification/support from others, and bitching is one the best ways to do it.. especially when your life sucks.

Any male organisation is going to get a nasty reputation. That's a given. It'll be attacked by both feminists and the media, because men aren't allowed to complain... since we're still being punished for our ancestors mistreating women.. It's the time for women to do what they want, and the guys should just accept it. That's the way it was for the last two decades, and it's one of the main reasons for MGTOW getting such a bad rep. However, there is the darker side of MGTOW. It can be outright nasty and completely full of bile... but we should remember that we don't live in an equal society either... a lot of social/governmental organs favor women over men.

I'm not a member of MGTOW. I love women, and while I get frustrated with them at times, I recognise them as human, and so fallible.. or just bad people. It happens. I have friends who flirt with MGTOW, but won't commit to it, simply because they're not ready to give up on life... and let's face it, a lot of good experiences in life, tend to revolve around women...

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Any male organisation is going to get a nasty reputation.

Not necessarily. What you can do is be a snivelling excuse for a man instead. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/men-should-be-taught-to-do-fair-share-of-housework-from-early-age-1.4370511
:pac:

I didn't quote the rest of your post but pretty much agree with the rest of it. My personal favourite is when I say women are just as x as men, x being a negative, and being told that shows I'm bitter and hate women.

Simple fact of the matter is girls love being friends with me (less so in the last couple of years as I've ****ed a few of them off :P ) and like to just leave a little thread there that maybe there's a chance. Mea culpa but again, guy's fault for falling for it, roles reversed and a guy is a bastard if he is in any way self-serving. Sorry, wait, when men do it they're manipulative. :pac:

[Deleted User]

Reading the last couple of posts there I'm reminded of a particular poster here who's always like 'If people have an issue they should campaign' while simultaneously sneering/laughing at fathers rights groups and the like..

completedit

You have to realise for these people there's a lot of factors that cause them to be that way. As someone who uses the forums(I love the humour on them; the self-deprecating self hatred is something I find funny, a lot of the time it's pure hyperbole, e.g If you're not 6'4'' wide jawed muscle bound hunk with great complexion and a 6x6 just ****ing end it''

There's even some truth to these forums. At the end of the day they just surmise that 'attractive men get the girl' which is fairly true.

It's interesting talking to guys who aren't bitter tbh; they just must have no narcy traits like I and others do. I think a lot of people on those sites are vulnerable narcissists.

iptba

PCeeeee wrote: »

The hating and spite. IMO this is just frustration. They are still attracted/still want women. Perhaps even a family. I'm not sure.

If you're truly going your own way. Why care?

I agree that a lot of them are still attracted to women and often still want them. I think at least part of it is they are unhappy with the way men can be treated by the State when relationships end and are hoping it sufficient numbers opt of marriage, etc., it will change things. Whether this will ever happen, who knows.

john123470

Deleted User wrote: »

... but going back to being single? Most of my male friends have an awful fear of it, since they know (from me) that it's not all milk and honey. Being single around your 40s is fun for some, but definitely not fun for most. While I love being single.. at the same time, I know the clock is ticking. It's not easy.. it's not exactly hard either, but... some people really have a fear of being alone as they get older.

Fine, but marrying up, having kids is no guarantee that your life will be any better. You may marry and be more miserable than your miserable single self currently is.

You may then divorce - if you afford to - and jump thru hoops to get to see your offspring.

Your very offspring may end up causing you more grief than they are worth.

Or, you may marry up, have a truckload of kids and be the happiest chappy on the estate.

A lot of our problems arise from being unable to amuse ourselves without company, even bad company

In 1654, scientist and philosopher Blaise Pascal wrote: “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

[Deleted User]

john123470 wrote: »

Fine, but marrying up, having kids is no guarantee that your life will be any better.

There is a risk in any decision. There's no guarantee for anything except dying at some point.

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

Human's are social creatures. Oh, I've heard various suggestions that people can go the whole way alone, but I think it's mostly BS. I'm very good alone (plenty of experience with it), but even then, I need human contact with others. Friendship works somewhat.. but intimacy with a romantic/sexual partner is pretty important too.. (as long you're biologically capable anyway)

Be practical. Recognise that you will want to be with women/men. It's not entirely about sex, although that is part of it. It's also about being with people who are decidedly different from yourself... too much of yourself and you'll go nuts.

john123470

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a risk in any decision. There's no guarantee for anything ... too much of yourself and you'll go nuts.

Thats first time i heard about risk and man being a social animal. Thanks

I'm not saying man should live like a monk.

If intimate sexual relationships and marriage are where its at for you, then that is perfectly normal.
But it doesn't mean that everyone has to feel like this .. or that you call BS on those who don't agree

.. as for going nuts - too much of a bad wife and squealing kids can do that to you too. Ask married men

[Deleted User]

john123470 wrote: »

Thats first time i heard about risk and man being a social animal. Thanks

I'm not saying man should live like a monk.

If intimate sexual relationships and marriage are where its at for you, then that is perfectly normal.
But it doesn't mean that everyone has to feel like this .. or that you call BS on those who don't agree

.. as for going nuts - too much of a bad wife and squealing kids can do that to you too. Ask married men

Any relationship carries risk. Live with a woman without marriage, and claims of cohabitation can be made, with you paying out the same way as if you'd just had a divorce. This is becoming common throughout the US and Europe. So, even without getting married, you can be held to paying for a broken contract that you never signed.

You can go without it all, just playing the field, but that get's incredibly tiresome after a while. Virtually, all the player types I know, have settled into relationships when approaching their 50s. Dating from that period onwards, doesn't have my return on investment... and is full of superficial connections that don't do much to satisfy appetites. so..

As for married men... that varies widely. I know people who have made it work for themselves extremely well. But then, they were careful in what they signed up for, and maintained constant communication throughout. They're a distinct minority though.

john123470

. You don't leave much choice there, do you ..

Either co habit, play the field or hope to be the happy minority that get to Really love life

Problem with all this is that in your movie, there Must be skirt around the house ... otherwise you're fcked, so to speak.

I'm saying the occasional skirt around the house can be just as valid and satisfying an option. In my movie like ...

I like spices, you like ketchup i guess

[Deleted User]

john123470 wrote: »

. You don't leave much choice there, do you ..

Either co habit, play the field or hope to be the happy minority that get to Really love life

Problem with all this is that in your movie, there Must be skirt around the house ... otherwise you're fcked, so to speak.

I'm saying the occasional skirt around the house can be just as valid and satisfying an option. In my movie like ...

I like spices, you like ketchup i guess

Nope. What I said is pretty open... people can live how they choose, and bear the consequences of those choices. Informed decisions, hopefully.

You're seeking to present a certain point of view... by using my posts. But it doesn't work that way.

I'm single, unmarried, although I still date somewhat. I know my options, and I know the possible consequences, taking precautions where needed. Risk mitigation. That's all it is really. The problem is that most guys don't do the proper research and preparation before committing to something.

Oh, and since I live, for the most part in Asia, I'm the one liking spices... and you the one liking ketchup.

(it also helps that the perception about age differences is vastly different to here, so I have a wider range of options, including the higher population sizes.)

john123470

Shure you're on the pigs back ..

[Deleted User]

john123470 wrote: »

Shure you're on the pigs back ..

I have no idea what that means... and I'm quite content not knowing.

john123470

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea what that means... and I'm quite content not knowing.

Ah ok, i see.

These are Irish idioms

..eg. You are "quite content not knowing" will be "Happy as a pig in sh1t" (sasta mar mhuc i cac)

"I have a wider range of options, including the higher population sizes"

Here we can say you are spoilt for choice / "on the pigs back" (Ar mhuin na muice)

I do envy you. Go get em, cowboy !

tylercheribini

How much of a long term relationship/marriage is just sharing rent with somebody so you don't have to move back in with the parents?

Mister Vain

tylercheribini wrote: »

How much of a long term relationship/marriage is just sharing rent with somebody so you don't have to move back in with the parents?

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

Dickie10

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

Why would it matterif you are trying to meet someone? Like up til recently enough people lived at home with parents until they were a few months out from Marriage when they would have the house built or ready to buy and move in

IAMAMORON

john123470 wrote: »

Being alone, eating alone, going on holiday alone gets very bad press. Its almost as if peer pressure, not love, sends man to the altar

Once you break the barrier on this one you will not know yourself. It gives you much more personal freedom and you can do what you want , when you want, with your own personal time, not to be scoffed at.

My only advice, as a male, if you are travelling to touristy areas like the Costas and especially beach holidays to choose "adult only" accomodation, for obvious reasons. The last thing you need is kids screaming all around you when you are tucking into a nice novel at the swimming pool, or even worse, an over zealous protective parent sussing you out for 3-4 days before drunkenly accusing you of being a kiddy fiddler in the pub one night, you don't need it. Adult only hotels will also have more of an adult focus, so you can have a better time overall.

I have travelled on my own several times and once you get used to it and how to occupy yourself you will find companions a struggle to cope with!! Only messing here, but it can be rewarding to have the whole few days to yourself.

[Deleted User]

To be fair, people travelling solo is common, and if you really want to meet someone else, it's relatively easy to find others to travel or party with. One or two nights in the more popular hostels is a good idea, even if you intend on staying at hotels for the remainder. Hostels tend to provide the best way to meet other solo travelers or small groups. Considering how cheap hostels usually are, I'll often choose to stay a night in one if I'm alone in a city... most hostels will have rooms for single occupancy. A little more expensive than a hostel room, but better to avoid the thieving, the strangers rutting, and snoring. Just hang out in the bar area for a while, and you'll meet others quickly enough.

tylercheribini

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

ha im still living at home and have no interest in getting into a relationship with anybody, I really dont care what 'society' says. My parents probably think otherwise but I do chip in with house duties etc.

eviltwin

Mister Vain wrote: »

And despite the ridiculously expensive rent, there's still a stigma when living with the parents. It can be a bit of a catch 22 if you're single and trying to meet someone.

I’d hope most people would be mature enough to know that this on its own isn’t a reason to dismiss someone. Personally I think living at home and saving is a positive attribute in a partner. Once they are not relying on their parents to mind them and live an independent life then it’s not an issue. The only downside is the lack of privacy but hopefully shouldn’t deter any sexual activity.