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Child Item

MGTOW = “men going their own way”

iptba

I know there is already a thread on men's rights, but really MGTOW is something quite specific and elsewhere on the Internet, discussions and discussion forums are very often separate.

Also, women can be interested in men's rights, just as men can be interested in women's rights and feminism, but MGTOW is pretty much just for men.

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Mister Vain

Dickie10 wrote: »

Why would it matterif you are trying to meet someone? Like up til recently enough people lived at home with parents until they were a few months out from Marriage when they would have the house built or ready to buy and move in

Well for some women it can be a deal breaker. Although I suppose anyone who thinks that way wouldn't be someone I'd want to be with anyway. As eviltwin said, most people would be mature enough not to dismiss someone because of it.

iptba

Millions Of Men No Longer Want To Get Married, And You Can Thank The Government For That
BY JULIANA STEWART·Nov 2nd 2020

https://www.eviemagazine.com/post/millions-of-men-no-longer-want-to-get-married-and-you-can-thank-the

This is from a publication for women. Interesting to see the arguments reach a wider audience.

440Hertz

To be quite honest I’m seeing this thread as being a bit ridiculous. Irish and American or even English divorces aren’t directly comparable. In the English system for example, and most US systems, there’s a requirement to find fault with your partner to begin a divorce hence the very aggressive and high cost cases. You have to find grounds for divorce and accuse someone of having an affair or quite frequently of “unreasonable behaviour” in English law for example and begin a highly confrontational and adversarial process.

Irish divorce law was extremely slow moving, at least until the recent referendum, but it was always designed to be a lot less confrontational and there’s no requirement to find fault, which is a huge difference.

As for the custody and access stuff, I’ve seen that go wrong for both genders and I’ve seen huge risks for women too. For example, I’m aware of several scenarios where a woman, who didn’t want any financial supports, has ended up having to grant a formerly abusive & even physically violent ex access to kids (under supervision) which results in enormous tensions for years.

In general, getting into a relationship and particularly having kids can have risks - so chose your partner wisely and carefully.

That being said, I also know several divorced couples who did so absolutely amicably, without any drama at all.

Also have the risks really risen?

Bare in mind until 1995 in Ireland, marriage was irrevocable - there was no divorce at all and a broken marriage used to carry enormous social stigma - I’ve relatives who’s marriages broke up in the 1970s and they basically had to emigrate as a result and lived in pretty much exile.

So if you think you’re at high risk either as a man or a woman getting married now, perhaps try and get a grip and a bit of perspective.

Marriage rates are likely also falling because it’s not as necessary as it once was. A lot of couples quite happily cohabit, have kids and get granted quite strong protection anyway, and there’s no longer any stigma to doing that anymore.

If you did that in the 1970s, even in the USA or U.K. and especially here in Ireland it would have carried enormous social stigma and being an “unmarried mother” here could literally have landed someone in an institution scrubbing laundry and forced, hidden adoption etc etc

So I don’t think Irish society has made marriage, relationships or having kids higher risk to anyone. If anything, the risks have drastically reduced.

I would tend to avoid extreme American online bubbles though as both culturally and legally it’s a very different place. They often marry far younger, as it’s more conservative and traditionalist than we are these days in many ways and they divorce more frequently as they make bad decisions.

The average marriage age in some of the US is still about 24-25. It’s about 30 in places like Massachusetts and New York, and it’s 34 to 36.4 in Ireland.

If you think about it, if someone here said they were married are 23 you’d be really raising a few eyebrows, whereas in the USA and even Canada that isn’t unusual at all.

Irish marriage age has gone way, way up, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s people making decisions with a lot of careful consideration.

[Deleted User]

440Hertz wrote: »

Irish marriage age has gone way, way up, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s people making decisions with a lot of careful consideration.

Is it really?..has it not turned into women in their mid thirties realising they have to do it now if they want kids and anyone half reasonable will do?..

440Hertz

Average marriage age here in 2019 was 34.8 for women and 36.8 for men, making it the oldest in the world, yet we’ve one of the highest birth rates in Europe, even if our average age of first birth is 31.

We marry later than even Britain, France and Germany and our Nordic neighbours and almost 10 years older than many American states.

We are increasingly less and less like North America across a range of these metrics and more like other Northern Europe countries.

I don’t think it’s a case of anyone will do. It’s looking a lot more like having kids in Ireland happens first, and with a good degree of planning and caution, then they get married.

In most of my friends’ cases this is the sequence:

1) Get together in college days.
2) Loads of travel and career stuff and move in together.
3) Maybe get a mortgage
4) Get pregnant - have a baby or maybe two
5) Get married - and it’s often a meticulously planned event with a huge amount of effort and thought out into it and I would say 30% of marriages I’ve been to have been religious.

Ireland’s a very different place to what it was in the 70s and 80s and it’s also increasingly very different to the USA, less different to Britain and a lot more similar to say France, Belgium and Germany than we sometimes realise.

iptba

440Hertz wrote: »

Marriage rates are likely also falling because it’s not as necessary as it once was. A lot of couples quite happily cohabit, have kids and get granted quite strong protection anyway, and there’s no longer any stigma to doing that anymore.

Protections for who? Rights of support for women are responsibilities for men*.

*I’m not claiming the law isn’t technically gender neutral

[Deleted User]

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2018/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20all%20marriages,when%2022%2C021%20marriages%20took%20place.

iptba

The average age of marriage includes second and subsequent marriages. A more relevant figure is the age at first marriage. I recall seeing data for it.

440Hertz

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2018/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20all%20marriages,when%2022%2C021%20marriages%20took%20place.

The 2019 ages of first marriage seem to have gone up and I would say 2020 & 2021 will be very unusual due to covid 19 restrictions.

However, those ages make us the latest to get married on average anywhere in the world.

440Hertz

You’ll really notice it though if you’re in the USA, particularly outside the NE and western states, it’s not unusual to encounter people of like 23 and 24 who are married.

In Ireland, Britain and most of Europe that would now be a bit surprising.

The days of Irish people getting married in their early 20s and having at least 4 kids are seemingly long gone.

The big risk in Ireland is we had a baby boom in the 70s and 80s that wasn’t accompanied by enormous emigration. So if you’re a 30 - 45 year old here you’re a “boomer” and the demographics are such that we aren’t going to have as big a population coming after us, so things could resemble Japan or Germany when were in our 70s, with a massive pension funding crisis.

That, or automation will have replaced most jobs and we will be fine on a smaller population. It’s hard to predict.

I’m not sure that were planned for or even thinking about an era when a large % of the population will be old though.

Wibbs

440Hertz wrote: »

Irish marriage age has gone way, way up, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s people making decisions with a lot of careful consideration.

Funny enough, traditionally even before divorce(or maybe because of the lack of it?) Ireland had one of the highest ages for marriage in the western world. That trend didn't seem to be impacted by divorce coming in.

440Hertz wrote: »

You’ll really notice it though if you’re in the USA, particularly outside the NE and western states, it’s not unusual to encounter people of like 23 and 24 who are married.

+1. Many moons ago when I was in my mid 30's a mate of mine who had moved to the US, had gotten hitched and divorced came back home with his new fiance and she was quite shocked that only one of his friends was married in their mid 30's. She was 23 and according to her half or more of her friends and family of that age were hitched. A couple were going through a divorce after high school pairings went south. Now she was only educated to a high school level, with some post school training and college educated Americans do marry later, but again not that much later. In places like Russia people tend to get hitched and have kids young too. Ireland is pretty unusual.

And I would agree it's a big mistake to compare Ireland to the US and divorce. That place is a real dog eat dog kip in many ways with bugger all social supports and lots of snakeoil salesmen ambulance chasers ready to pick apart the corpse of a marriage where men are nearly always screwed in the courts(even gaol can be a real threat and possibility). Never mind an increasing sense of division in much of US culture along race, economic and definitely gender lines. The largest transfer of wealth in US history went from American men to American women, who buy the majority of household and consumer items so the "money" prefers them and tends to be preferential towards them.

Ireland is far more equitable on just about every metric. Sure you'll have the purple haired "feminists" aping their US sisters in idiocy and screeching, but they're a much smaller minority and have far less actual power. Like 440 I too know a few divorced Irish couples and while it's always a sad thing to go through the majority were equitable enough, one or two even friendly. I even know of three women who ended up out of pocket supporting their ex husband(no kids involved). Of the nastier ones; well there were a few utter bitches and a bastard in the mix, but they were like that long before they hit the divorce court. It certainly didn't overly enable them. Though in two cases the kids thing was a major problem as the two "mothers" and I use the term as barely descriptive did get sole custody. Initially. However after a few years of back and forth and judges realising them for the wagons they were even that shifted.

Dickie10

I wonder has covi restrictions hampered many women (or men) in thier pursuit of a mate, like were almost 9 months without having traditional places where people meet a partner. im sure hiking or a walk in park might be mentioned as places people meet wives/husbands nut id like to know where everyone here met thier husband /wife. I would bet it was pub/nightclub/concert/gig/sports event/horse racing. i wonder will we see adearth of marriages in 2-3 years from this barren spell?

also has many people experienced having mates hanging out with them every weekend like someone that comes back on the scene after a relationship then the first bird he pulls hes gone into marriage mode with them? I have a friend who does this quite a bit, like hes with his current girlfriend about 18 mths and since the night he pulled her i havent seen been out socially with him. up to that he was texting me most weekends to go out. kind of hate that.

[Deleted User]

In America and Canada you'll have plenty of 30 year old divorcees, we tend not to get married straight out of college as they do.

Ubbquittious

Deleted User wrote: »

In America and Canada you'll have plenty of 30 year old divorcees, we tend not to get married straight out of college as they do.

That is the live hard and fail hard way of living.

Ideally it involves being brought up by a pair of super-strict parents, going to church a few times a week before going absolutely off the wall mad shagging as soon as the parents inevitably lose their grip, getting pregnant and trying to 'salvage' the whole thing by getting married mad young.

These fecking marriages rarely last but they bring about a plentiful source of drama for all involved as well as an income stream for lawyers

[Deleted User]

Ubbquittious wrote: »

That is the live hard and fail hard way of living.

Ideally it involves being brought up by a pair of super-strict parents, going to church a few times a week before going absolutely off the wall mad shagging as soon as the parents inevitably lose their grip, getting pregnant and trying to 'salvage' the whole thing by getting married mad young.

These fecking marriages rarely last but they bring about a plentiful source of drama for all involved as well as an income stream for lawyers

TBH it seems to go across the gamut of politics and religion over there rather than just being bible thumpers.

Ubbquittious

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH it seems to go across the gamut of politics and religion over there rather than just being bible thumpers.

The other common scenario is that the kids parents are fcuked up because they went through the aforementioned process or else there is an addiction or poverty involved. As a result the kid becomes depressed and turns to shagging and falling head-over-heels in love as a means of escape.

Where the thing usually goes wrong is because they run towards the first who will give them attention and hope for the future. The partner is often a grade A1 gobsh1te or just plain not compatible but they force the relationship anyway and coast on the blissful initial bliss for a number of years before things get ugly and the dreaded lawyers have to get involved.

Ubbquittious

Meant To Say wrote: »

If I was an American man no way would I risk marriage since you can so easily be divorced raped. Not sure what the situation is like for men here but probably not much better.

I have seen so much bitterness and sadness down through the years over failed relationships and fail to see how getting the legal crowd involved would help anyone. Therefore I don't really believe in marriage at all

440Hertz

@Wibbs one of the biggest differences that our divorce law is very modern. The English/Welsh and most American states have a concept of divorce by finding fault and it is combative and there’s often a whole legal industry built around that.

Our entire divorce framework only dates from 1995 and it has been fairly seriously modernised again in 2019.

In English law, people have even been refused divorces because just falling out of love isn’t grounds.

In the smoothest of Irish divorces, it happens by mutual consent, without fault being attributed. The basis is that the marriage is not reconcilable, rather than trying to find a party to blame.

The reality of it is it was the worst aspect was that the extremely dragged out and slow process (most of which was just waiting) due to constitutionally impose 4 of 5 year separation, which reduced recently by referendum, but the process has leaned towards encouraging couples to basically produce a separation agreement, upon which the divorce is based.

If you’ve an agreement, and everything is smooth, a divorce here takes a few minutes in court and both parties are likely to walk out without any drama at all. In those cases the courts don’t get involved at all other than to check the paperwork really, as the two parties have already set everything out between themselves.

In complex situations it goes down the route of a judicial separation and then divorce.

If you’ve an abusive situation or someone being utterly unreasonable about finances, child support and it’s not consented to, then it can up becoming nastier and the details can end up being decided by a court to resolve the dispute; but that’s not how it’s framed and it’s not usually how it happens other than in really hard cases.

There are even moves afoot to make it more of an arbitration process that might ultimately not need to go to court at all.

It’s far from perfect, but it’s not generally aiming to create a high drama court battle and it’s a lot more modern than English divorce law and the recent constitutional and legislative changes in 2019 have made it a lot smoother.

I think though the main issue here is that entering into marriage isn’t done as frivolously as it is in most of the USA. There’s a lot of planning and pre registration hurdles to go through before you can just sign on the dotted line.

In most of the States, it’s very very easy to get married and can be very, very expensive to get divorced.

Ireland isn’t unusual in the age of first marriage by European standards, even if it is top of the league table. The trends here are very similar to most of Western Europe and also the U.K. - people are marrying later and it’s become more of a rite of passage for a well established couple, rather than a rite of entry to being a couple in the first place and plenty of couples may never marry at all.

You’re seeing the big contrast with North America, particularly the more conservative areas, but were very much in line with most of our neighbours.

iptba

I recall reading in Ireland in recent years that 99% of recipients of maintenance were women. There could be a combination of reasons for that but it does highlight the direction things tend to go if couples separate in Ireland.

One eyed Jack

iptba wrote: »

I recall reading in Ireland in recent years that 99% of recipients of maintenance were women. There could be a combination of reasons for that but it does highlight the direction things tend to go if couples separate in Ireland.

There are a combination of reasons for it, but the main reason being that the woman is likely to have been the primary carer of the children throughout the marriage, and it’s determined to be in the children’s best interests that this should remain the case. It’s also likely that because she was the primary carer throughout the marriage, she didn’t have the same opportunities to provide for herself or their children while they were married and she was working in the home - 98% of people working in the home are women too, that’s why the correlation with the fact that 99% of the time when a marriage breaks down, they receive maintenance. Women also make up 99% of people who receive the one parent family allowance. It’s not really highlighting the direction things tend to go, so much as it is stating the obvious -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I can provide you with some facts and figures from the CSO to give you some proper data to work with based upon national statistics?

The employment rate for women who were lone parents or were part of a couple and who were aged 20-44 years was 67.6%, well below the male rate of 88.3%.

The rate for women varied from 85.7% for women with no children to just 60% for women whose youngest child was aged between 4 and 5 years of age, a difference of 25.7 percentage points.

In contrast, the employment rate for men with no children was 89.1% while the rate for men whose youngest child was aged 6 or over was 83.9%.

Lone parents had lower employment rates than parents in couples.

Male lone parents whose youngest child was aged 6 or over had an employment rate of 58.5%, 26.5 percentage points lower than for a man in a couple.

The employment rate for female lone parents whose youngest child was aged 3 or under was 45.6% which was 21.3 percentage points lower than for a women in a couple.

Just over half (51.5%) of women aged 15 years and over were in the labour force (at work or unemployed) in 2016, a slight increase on the proportion from 2006 of 50.2%.

The proportion of men in the labour force over the same time period dropped from 72.7% to 67.8%.

More than half (54.5%) of those who were at work in 2016 were men while over two-thirds (67.5%) of people who were unemployed were men

Nearly all of the people (98%) who were looking after home or family in 2016 were women although the number of men in this grouping nearly doubled in the ten years up to 2016, rising from 4,900 to 9,200.

In 2015 47.9% of women in Ireland were at risk of poverty before income from pensions and social transfers was taken into account, compared with 44.6% of men.

The at risk of poverty rate after social transfers and pensions was 16.4% for women and 16.1% for men.

The at risk of poverty rate for both men and women aged 18 and over in Ireland rose slightly between 2010 and 2015 from 14% to 15%.

People in employment had a lower at risk of poverty rate with a rate of 6% for men and 4% for women in 2015.

The highest at risk of poverty rates were for people who were unemployed with a rate of 39% for both men and women in 2015.

More than nine out of ten lone parents were women in 2016 and this proportion has remained stable over the period 2006 to 2016.

The number of women living as lone parents increased by 14.6% from 115,600 to 132,500 between 2006 and 2016.

The number of men living as lone parents rose by more than a quarter (27.7%) from 10,100 in 2006 to 12,900 by 2016.

More than nine out of ten lone parents were women in 2016.

The youngest child was aged under 10 for 57.1% of women living as lone parents.

For 38% of male lone parents, the age of the youngest child was aged under 10 years and for the same proportion of male lone parents the age of the youngest child was between 15 and 19 years.

The vast majority (98.9%) of the 40,317 persons in receipt of one-parent family payments in 2016 were women.

Just under one in five (18.6%) of the women receiving the one-parent family payment was aged under 25 years.

The average income liable for social insurance for women in 2016 was three-quarters of men's with average income for women of €26,649 compared to €35,766 for men.

Men were more likely to have income of €50,000 or over with 21.4% of men and 13.3% of women in this income band. Nearly half (48.5%) of women had income under €20,000 compared to 39.6% of men.

Sources:
Employment, Social Cohesion and Lifestyles - Central Statistics Office.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are a combination of reasons for it, but the main reason being that the woman is likely to have been the primary carer of the children throughout the marriage, and it’s determined to be in the children’s best interests that this should remain the case. It’s also likely that because she was the primary carer throughout the marriage, she didn’t have the same opportunities to provide for herself or their children while they were married and she was working in the home - 98% of people working in the home are women too, that’s why the correlation with the fact that 99% of the time when a marriage breaks down, they receive maintenance. Women also make up 99% of people who receive the one parent family allowance. It’s not really highlighting the direction things tend to go, so much as it is stating the obvious -

The problem is more the spin on it that women as a class are hard done by "the Patriarchy" when we both sexes are biologically nudged

One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

The problem is more the spin on it that women as a class are hard done by "the Patriarchy" when we both sexes are biologically nudged

To be fair, I think it would be fair to say there’s a minority contingent among both sexes who use spin to portray their sex as the harder done by sex in society.

The vast majority of women in society aren’t feminists and want nothing to do with feminism, in the same way as the vast majority of men in society aren’t MGTOW/MRA types, and want nothing to do with them.

iptba

Domestic Abuse, Family Justice and Hate Laws 2020: A Summary

http://empathygap.uk/?p=3601

I thought it was interesting to see Williams Collins' comments here encouraging a MGTOW approach.
He is a married man. I think it's background is in physics or at least something STEM, but he does interesting in-depth analysis of gender issues on this blog.

Sam Cooke
13th December 2020 at 12:42 pm
What can us male victims do to get justice and fair legislation in all this?
I had to really fight to get custody of my kids, despite recordings of their mother swearing to God she would kill them and describing how she would do it. Even with multiple recordings of her abuse, assaults against me, distress for the kids and breaches of court orders, it still took two years in the courts for the judge to finally rule against her. If I have behaved even a fraction as badly as she did, I would have been sent packing within months, not 2 very long years.

William Collins
13th December 2020 at 3:38 pm
Unfortunately there are tens of thousands of cases like this in the UK every year, and this has been going on for forty years at least. After struggling with the question “what can we do about this” for many years, I’m afraid the answer is one that you may not like. Many of us expend a lot of effort trying to halt or reverse the prejudice at the family court level. But it isn’t working. So – what do you do if you’ve spent years fishing bodies out of a river? Eventually you have to take a walk upstream to try to stop them being chucked in. The equivalent here is to stop concentrating on all those cases, like yours, when it’s already all gone wrong and to start educating young men on the realities of fathering children. Only when the birth rate, and rates of marriage and cohabitation, have dropped through the floor – so that women themselves are affected – will anyone give a ****. Trashing men – and damaging children – is not enough in our gynocentric society.

iptba

I was doing some clearing up and came across this cutting from the front page of the Sunday Times from a few years ago:

Alimony fear over 'women's place'
Larissa Nolan

A leading lawyer has said that the removal of the "woman's place in the home" clause from the Irish constitution could affect maintenance payments in family law cases.

Professor Geoffrey Shannon, the government's special rapporteur on child protection, said Ireland was unique in having such a constitutional clause, and also in its type of maintenance regime in the case of marriage breakdown. This guarantees lifelong financial support for a dependent spouse.

Shannon said: "A dependent spouse fares better in Ireland than in virtually any other jurisdiction in the world, and that's due to this lifelong obligation. It is a safety net or a protective mechanism for the spouse who acts as homemaker.

"In other countries, a time is reached after which you cannot seek further maintenance. There is no such thing as a 'clean break' here, as far as maintenance is concerned. You can always return for further support if you are a dependent spouse. That protects children as well."

Shannon said when one spouse adopts the traditional role of homemaker, or cares for the family over a period of time, they are likely to be compensated for that role. "The constitution is the written supreme law by which all other laws and rules in Ireland must comply," he pointed out.

Article 41.2.1 says the state "shall endeavour to ensure mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of her duties in the home". Fine Gael TD Josepha Madigan has called for a referendum to remove the clause, describing it as "an anachronism" not reflective of today's Ireland.

A Behaviour & Attitudes poll for The Sunday Times found a vote to ditch the clause could fail, with 41% supporting it and 39% saying they would vote against. More men (42%) than women (40%) support its removal.

iptba

Why are increasing numbers of women choosing to be single?
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jan/17/why-are-increasing-numbers-of-women-choosing-to-be-single

My impression is that a lot of the article doesn't focus on women who chose to be single.
Still, it might be of interest to some.

[Deleted User]

iptba wrote: »

My impression is that a lot of the article doesn't focus on women who chose to be single.
Still, it might be of interest to some.

"It is time, surely, to change the rules, and the conversation. As the population of never-married women expands, we should be honest about what it meant, and means, to be one. We should celebrate our identity and the life experience that has given it to us. We should reclaim our history and stop being defined by others. Why not start by taking back that dread word, spinster?"

Yeah, I read through the article and while it isn't the usual screaming of victimhood, there's definitely overtones of the sentiment, especially where the term spinster is repeatedly referenced, as if it was only men that used and defined the negative meaning of the word.

I had to laugh though, because it completely ignores the value that women have had in society throughout history over men. There have always been bachelors, either due to choice or circumstances.. but women have always had an extra value in society due to appearance, being able to have children, or simply social proof. Whereas, men didn't except where property/wealth rights became important.

All I can say is welcome to the party. Out of all the people I have encountered in my life, the numbers of unmarried men far outweigh the numbers of unmarried women.

The author needs to stop focusing on the negative definitions of words.. spinster. As opposed to using any other word to describe being single, and unmarried. Just as she needs to realise that being single is a choice. We chose not to commit to past relationships. We chose not to stay with that person who obviously loved us, but we didn't feel the same love back. We chose the freedom that comes from avoiding a serious relationship. And now, when age settles in, that choice carries the wide range of consequences that are less important when we are young, but aren't any kind of secret. There's no mystery about choosing to be single... especially in the later years of your life. And age does tend to favor men over women.. again, no secret there.

I find the article to be a bit of a moan for having to pay up for remaining single. It's not as bad as feminist driven articles, there's few digs at men, and such.. decent article really, all things considered.. but it's still a moan about having to face the consequences of our life choices...

IAMAMORON

The article really highlights some of the poorest failings of extreme feminism.

Insofar as it directly compares and contrasts its' actions with the actions of men whilst claiming to be exclusive and empowering to women.

Real feminists get on with being women, not spending their lives copying men to prove they can.

There is elements of woke feminism in the article. Many extreme feminists cling to their birthrights and their ability to deliver babies as some form of currency or supremacy above men. I find it uncouth and such misandry extremely unhealthy and also a catalyst for spreading mental health issues, particularly in women.

Children need patriarchal influences in their lives. One women's physical ability to deliver a baby does not automatically derive her ability to develop that baby into a sound thinking adult. This is rarely addressed cohesively by feminists.

Sleepy

IAMAMORON wrote: »

One women's physical ability to deliver a baby does not automatically derive her ability to develop that baby into a sound thinking adult. This is rarely addressed cohesively by feminists.

(emphasis mine)

Why would it be? Feminists aren't likely to value something they're not capable of themselves...

1874

440Hertz wrote: »

The reality of it is it was the worst aspect was that the extremely dragged out and slow process (most of which was just waiting) due to constitutionally impose 4 of 5 year separation, which reduced recently by referendum, but the process has leaned towards encouraging couples to basically produce a separation agreement, upon which the divorce is based.

If you’ve an agreement, and everything is smooth, a divorce here takes a few minutes in court and both parties are likely to walk out without any drama at all. In those cases the courts don’t get involved at all other than to check the paperwork really, as the two parties have already set everything out between themselves.

In complex situations it goes down the route of a judicial separation and then divorce.

Ireland isn’t unusual in the age of first marriage by European standards, even if it is top of the league table. The trends here are very similar to most of Western Europe and also the U.K. - people are marrying later and it’s become more of a rite of passage for a well established couple, rather than a rite of entry to being a couple in the first place and plenty of couples may never marry at all.

You’re seeing the big contrast with North America, particularly the more conservative areas, but were very much in line with most of our neighbours.

IS that the case really though, if there is an agreement beforehand, the Judge can still weigh in and alter things, a man could very easily lose out in such a situation.
Can you even know who your Judge would be in advance, that might help.
I know someone who when they went into that situation, the Judge wouldnt even let them speak, and they got completely shafted.

How likely is a judge to abide by an agreement made by a couple?
or whats to stop the woman changing her mind, right up to the day in Court??

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are a combination of reasons for it, but the main reason being that the woman is likely to have been the primary carer of the children throughout the marriage, and it’s determined to be in the children’s best interests that this should remain the case. It’s also likely that because she was the primary carer throughout the marriage, she didn’t have the same opportunities to provide for herself or their children while they were married and she was working in the home - 98% of people working in the home are women too, that’s why the correlation with the fact that 99% of the time when a marriage breaks down, they receive maintenance. Women also make up 99% of people who receive the one parent family allowance. It’s not really highlighting the direction things tend to go, so much as it is stating the obvious -

Id say, in a lot of cases, both parents are equal main care givers, with many women in higher paid positions in their workplaces. What then? I think equal care/responsibility should be given if both sides are asking for it, or even (especially) if the father is asking and wants that. Someone mentioned the child stays in the home and the parents move in and out, tbh that sounds very messy to me. As inconvenient and even disruptive as it might sound, I still think the childs care being shared equally in the respective homes of the father and mother is reasonable.
The main reason imo this hasnt happened is due to dated attitudes and the fact the Dad probably ended up in a bedsit.

For the person I mentioned above who got shafted, I dont really want to raise it with them again, but I got the impression, the house might be meant to be divided equally between the parents after the child is finished school, that guy who is younger than me would be in his 60's by then, I expect if he is still alive, the woman may have other obligations or simply refuse to leave based on longevity of stay, who would kick out a similarly aged woman and force her to sell??

Dickie10

thats a good article, many times a week i would think, God maybe im missing out on something by not having a girlfriend, then i have a think of the freedoms i would have to give up straight away ad realise at the minute I have abolutly no hunger to do that. i suppose going to the odd dinner or barbecue it might be handy and less awkward talking to people in that stiff setting but really would be a pain having to cater for someone else in my life at the minute, a friend with benefits prob best. have a bit of fun, then maybe see the again in a few weeks.