Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

sbsquarepants · 23-05-2019 1:33pm

Trafficking is quite a vague and emotive term - what does it even mean?

To me it implies brought against your will and forced to do something, abduction and slavery in other words. As such I just can't imagine the numbers being anything particularly significant. Of course 1 single person is still 1 too many.

If it just means moved form one place to another to work for someone else, well then intel and apple traffic people here all the time!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 1:36pm

Zorya wrote: »

Ironically you are berating me for doing exactly what you are doing. Choosing our evidence. You choose to minimise - the 1 in 7, and I choose to maximise, 60 - 90%. But you cannot berate me for doing what you do, which is being selective about available information.

But I have not done that. Anywhere. You cited one part of it, I pointed out that the other part is there TOO. At no point did I selectively quote either or. I acknowledge both as a RANGE and pointed out we should base our approach on that RANGE. As both our conclusions AND our credibility would suffer if we do anything else as you have.

Zorya wrote: »

I was just wondering who are the ordinary people who can bring themselves to screw these (at least) tens of thousands (in Germany alone) of unfortunate people for their own pleasure.

And I answered this. Most of that answer being that many people are blind, or allow themselves to be blind, to the plight of people in most industries and services they avail of, even to the plight of our planet itself in environmental issues.

We have to acknowledge much about us as a species is far from ideal. But we CAN work on coherent and useful tools to allow the victim AND the consumer AND the government AND the police the best environment to reduce trafficking to an ideal goal of Zero.

I do not believe we will ever hit Zero. It will always be there. But we can work towards that ideal. Making sex work illegal for the worker, the consumer, or legal with poor standards for either..... is not going to help any of us here.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 1:38pm

Zorya wrote: »

A few articles I read recently got me thinking again about something that has long bothered me.

How can ordinary people get off when they must suspect that the prostitutes are basically slaves?

But for this atrocious slave trade to be as enormously profitable as it is, it requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of ordinary people all over the world to be prepared to pay money every day to abuse and degrade sex slaves. That is soooo much more freaky.

Who are these ordinary monsters?

Excellent post. I think, sadly, that prostitution isn't just about sex ,as in respectful sex or even relieving sex or sex for it's own sake, at all. The abuse in a lot of cases is literally part of the thrill. I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore" (her words) and that's what they are regularly called while the transaction is ongoing and that's the least of what's done to them to show them I'm paying for you, I can do what I like and you have to take it. Imo the lack of any concern for whether the girl is trafficked is all part of the same thing. For some if not a lot of these men, it's adds to the enjoyment, even while some of them deny it to themselves.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 1:42pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Trafficking is quite a vague and emotive term - what does it even mean?

To me it implies brought against your will and forced to do something, abduction and slavery in other words. As such I just can't imagine the numbers being anything particularly significant. Of course 1 single person is still 1 too many.

If it just means moved form one place to another to work for someone else, well then intel and apple traffic people here all the time!

I'm kind of stunned that you don't think it is so. I am not a very worldly person, in fact I am regularly enough stupidly shocked at stuff, but even I know that sex trafficking is a giant problem in the world. Have you not seen the documentaries from India? There are regularly stories even in Ireland of people in brothels against their will.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/young-woman-reveals-harrowing-details-12543649

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rural-hell-of-irelands-sex-slaves-26458885.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46092085

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ireland-destination-child-sex-slave-trafficking

Zorya · 23-05-2019 1:44pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Excellent post. I think, sadly, that prostitution isn't just about sex ,as in respectful sex or even relieving sex or sex for it's own sake, at all. The abuse in a lot of cases is literally part of the thrill. I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore" (her words) and that's what they are regularly called while the transaction is ongoing and that's the least of what's done to them to show them I'm paying for you, I can do what I like and you have to take it. Imo the lack of any concern for whether the girl is trafficked is all part of the same thing. For some if not a lot of these men, it's adds to the enjoyment, even while some of them deny it to themselves.

Thanks MrsMum.
On an aside, can I employ you going forward as my post editor because you managed to cut through my waffle and keep the important stuff

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 1:46pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore"

No idea who that prostitute was but I could hazard a guess as it is PRECISELY the same rhetoric that came from a politically active ex-sex worker who I saw on the RTE. She was however a very vile very much man-hating monstrosity of a person.

When she was finally granted an audience with politicians for example she did not discuss the plight of sex workers, the efficacy of laws or regulation, or the ethics of sex work.

Instead she decided to scream at them that ""Purchasing sex work is the expression of male misogynistic women hating" and that men having sex with sex workers are "living out their misogynistic woman hating" tendencies.

The same woman organised a march for women and women rights and she literally banned ANY men from marching in it at all. Her agenda has nothing to do with sex work and everything to do with her really really really hating men.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 1:49pm

Zorya wrote: »

Thanks MrsMum.
On an aside, can I employ you going forward as my post editor because you managed to cut through my waffle and keep the important stuff

.

It was all important. I just kept what I needed for my reply.

bnt · 23-05-2019 1:52pm

I was never exactly keen on the idea, then I got propositioned by a sex worker in London one morning, and it was just so sad it closed the door on the idea altogether. In the media, though, the "hooker with a heart of gold" is a TV Trope, a cliché. People see Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, and even though the movie does show some of the downsides to prostitution, that's not what people remember, is it?

More recently, I saw Louis Theroux's Dark States documentary, which was horrifying. By actually talking to sex workers in depth, one thing I learned is that even when they say they are doing it of their own free will, it isn't that simple. They may have made a choice, but it was a choice made from a very limited set of options, and sometimes complicated by chronic mental health problems. As as potential customer I wouldn't be able to get past all that and just enjoy myself.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 1:53pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No idea who that prostitute was but I could hazard a guess as it is PRECISELY the same rhetoric that came from a politically active ex-sex worker who I saw on the RTE. She was however a very vile very much man-hating monstrosity of a person.

When she was finally granted an audience with politicians for example she did not discuss the plight of sex workers, the efficacy of laws or regulation, or the ethics of sex work.

Instead she decided to scream at them that ""Purchasing sex work is the expression of male misogynistic women hating" and that men having sex with sex workers are "living out their misogynistic woman hating" tendencies.

The same woman organised a march for women and women rights and she literally banned ANY men from marching in it at all. Her agenda has nothing to do with sex work and everything to do with her really really really hating men.

You would "hazard a guess" would you now. Then I guess we must all believe it so. And there I was thinking you were the person that always dealt with cold hard logic. Yet now you're making up what you want to reply to.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 1:58pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

You would "hazard a guess" would you now. Then I guess we must all believe it so. And there I was thinking you were the person that always dealt with cold hard logic. Yet now you're making up what you want to reply to.

As long as a person distinguishes openly and honestly between when they are claiming fact, based on cold hard logic..... and when they are guessing..... I see nothing wrong with that.

You taking my guess, which I openly called a guess, and claiming "we must all believe it so" however is wantonly dishonest however. Because there you are putting words and positions in my mouth I never expressed. For shame.

bnt wrote: »

I was never exactly keen on the idea, then I got propositioned by a sex worker in London one morning, and it was just so sad it closed the door on the idea altogether. In the media, though, the "hooker with a heart of gold" is a TV Trope, a cliché. People see Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, and even though the movie does show some of the downsides to prostitution, that's not what people remember, is it?

It is a problem for both sides of the discussion that almost everyone discussing it has no actual direct experience of the industry. And most of those that do, tend not to admit it. So a lot of us are talking in the dark.

Certainly I have KNOWN a tiny number of people who did sex work. And they were entirely happy and lovely people who had no issue with it. They were using part time sex work to subsidise their university education. We also had a sex worker CURRENTLY in the trade do a long and interesting AMA session here on boards.ie. She was also very happy in the industry.

But it would be just as foolish of me to extrapolate anything from those tiny anecdotes as it would be to extrapolate from the anecdote of someone who got out of the industry and hated it.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 2:07pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As long as a person distinguishes openly and honestly between when they are claiming fact, based on cold hard logic..... and when they are guessing..... I see nothing wrong with that.

You taking my guess, which I openly called a guess, and claiming "we must all believe it so" however is wantonly dishonest however. Because there you are putting words and positions in my mouth I never expressed. For shame.

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty. Best if you and I ignore each other. That's what I'll be doing.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2019 2:09pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty. Best if you and I ignore each other. That's what I'll be doing.

Nozz quite clearly said that it was a guess on their part. No dishonesty from them at all.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 2:10pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty.

No cheek required. I VERY clearly said I do not know who it was and THEN VERY clearly said I could make a guess.

Nothing dishonest about any of that. Least of all because you WANT it to be dishonest.

If I said however "I know who that is!" you would have a point. As it stands now..... you really really don't. Quite the opposite in fact. The world would be a better place, especially in forums like this, were people more clear what they claim as fact, and what they claim as guess work.

So yes the dishonesty here is from you, yourself, the mum in the mirror, and thy own self. No one else.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 2:14pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No cheek required. I VERY clearly said I do not know who it was and THEN VERY clearly said I could make a guess.

Nothing dishonest about any of that. Least of all because you WANT it to be dishonest.

If I said however "I know who that is!" you would have a point. As it stands now..... you really really don't. Quite the opposite in fact. The world would be a better place, especially in forums like this, were people more clear what they claim as fact, and what they claim as guess work.

So yes the dishonesty here is from you, yourself, the mum in the mirror, and thy own self. No one else.

It was at the very least false equivalence. Not even a comma (breath) between the anecdotes...

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 2:16pm

Zorya wrote: »

It was at the very least false equivalence. Not even a comma (breath) between the anecdotes...

Actually there was a whole paragraph break between my guess, and my knowledge of the person I was guessing it was.

You are getting desperate to misrepresent this guess now the two of you. For whatever reason. I said it was a guess. I was clear it was a guess. Nothing dishonest there at all. Stop manufacturing nonsense from nowhere.

Deebles McBeebles · 23-05-2019 2:17pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Making sex work illegal for the worker, the consumer, or legal with poor standards for either..... is not going to help any of us here.

This has historically been proven to be true. Prohibition does not work, it only hands the industry to criminals.

With proper regulations and standards in place, there is no reason why the workers would not enjoy better working conditions.

If that is what the argument is. If you just plain don't like sex workers being a thing, it won't matter I suppose.

Yeah_Right · 23-05-2019 2:17pm

I've had sex with prostitutes in the past and I can honestly say that trafficking never crossed my mind. From my perspective it was clean, safe and fun. Maybe I was naive about their situation.

I fully support a legal, well regulated sex industry.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 2:22pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually there was a whole paragraph break between my guess, and my knowledge of the person I was guessing it was.

You are getting desperate to misrepresent this guess now the two of you. For whatever reason. I said it was a guess. I was clear it was a guess. Nothing dishonest there at all. Stop manufacturing nonsense from nowhere.

Actually I found it very misleading reply. Don't know what category or categories of fallacies it falls under but it was designed to make all objectors to legalisation of prostitution look akin to the wildly depicted subject of your anecdote. I was confused where the man hating angle had suddenly appeared from...

Your chosen descriptors illustrate the intention -

very vile
very much man-hating
monstrosity .

she decided to scream at them
her really really really hating men.

It was a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters and associate poster's natures with that ex sex worker's nature.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 2:22pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

This has historically been proven to be true. Prohibition does not work, it only hands the industry to criminals.

Indeed, and then police resources get diverted to dealing with the illegality OF the industry instead of focusing on where it should be..... the illegality WITHIN the industry.

Zorya wrote: »

Actually I found it very misleading reply.

I am unsurprised that having disagreed with me the entire thread you might suddenly contrive to find something misleading that was ABUNDANTLY clear from the first sentence.

However I notice also you have now moved away from discussing the topic of your own thread to instead having a "he said she said" discussion with me about something barely related.

The fact is I made a guess AND Was abundantly clear it was making a guess. That you find that misleading, says more about you than me.

Zorya wrote: »

Don't know what category or categories of fallacies it falls under but it was designed to make all objectors to legalisation of prostitution look akin to the wildly depicted subject of your anecdote. I was confused where the man hating angle had suddenly appeared from...

Simple. It has come ENTIRELY from you. As none of that intention described above was in my post. You have manufactured it entirely and solely by yourself. I spoke only and solely about one single individual. YOU are doing the rest of the projection by yourself.

Actually as interesting evidence against your nonsense claim here, I wrote a long post reviewing the RTE documentary the woman appeared in and wrote at length about how if I was against sex work I would feel hard done by and misrepresented by the RTE by their choice of her as a speaker. And I did that precisely because I do NOT see her as a representative of the anti Prostituition lobby, in the exact opposite way you are now pretending that I do.

I can link you to said review on request if you like.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 2:27pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

With proper regulations and standards in place, there is no reason why the workers would not enjoy better working conditions.

If that is what the argument is. If you just plain don't like sex workers being a thing, it won't matter I suppose.

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

I don't mind people transacting sex in a well mannered way at all. In fact to the horror of some I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services. in fact, I advised a sibling to do likewise when things were tough. In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Deebles McBeebles · 23-05-2019 2:32pm

Zorya wrote: »

In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Well that's the ideal but it has to be legal in order to get there. I doubt you'll find many disagreeing with that. The voluntary and adult parts in particular!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 2:33pm

Zorya wrote: »

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

Thus far though you have only evidenced that REPORTS of trafficking have increased, not that actual trafficking has.

That said though there is of course going to be SOME increase in it if we legalise because if demand goes up then trafficking will go up. I just do not think the increase is as large as you might claim by far.

But if trafficking is a % of the whole, then if the whole goes up, the trafficking will go up too. If there is double the number of sex workers working, then of course you will as a % likely have double the number of trafficked sex workers. That is simply mathematics percentages. 100 workers when it was illegal 2 of which were trafficked will likely mean if there is 200 workers after it is legalised, that 4 of them will be trafficked.

The question then becomes if legalising and regulating it influences that % in and of itself. Is there any evidence it does? The links you provided so far to support that claim said, as I pointed out at the time, the opposite. That the evidence was quite weak in fact.

Zorya wrote: »

I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services.

Out of curiosity how was he to identify a reputable service over any other? I do not know the industry "on the ground" enough in Ireland at this time to know how when going to an escort you can currently ascertain their level of legitimacy.

Until we have not just legal sex work, but regulated in a way that you CAN identify " independent and voluntarily self employed adult persons" to do it with...... how do you propose someone do so?

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2019 2:36pm

Former Observer wrote: »

Good post. There will always be many, many more men who want to pay for sex than there will be women that want to be paid for sex. Despite the trend in orthodox liberal thinking that 'sex work' is just like any other work, it is not. The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small. A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

One of the few areas I agree with feminists, is with regards the sex trade, criminalise the buyer

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2019 2:37pm

Zorya wrote: »

Yes. It is usually poverty or trafficking. This ''worker'' phrase is modern marxist BS being applied to make abuse seem like it can be salvaged. Like surrogates are now being called ''gestational workers''. These people are so poor that they have no choice. I know there are independent consorts and escorts who maintain good standards for themselves and they are lucky. I can understand a person, man or woman, using such services where there is dignity and manners. But it is far far from the norm.

The neo Marxists don't defend the sex industry

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 2:39pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

One of the few areas I agree with feminists, is with regards the sex trade, criminalise the buyer

One effect of which is to ensure, literally by definition, that the clientele of any given sex worker comes from the section of society already inclined towards being breakers of the law.

Which to me does not sound like a great step towards ensuring their safety, well being, and working options. Quite the opposite as such people, being already law breakers, are likely to be LESS inclined to worry if their sex worker is trafficked or not. The primary concern of the topic of this thread.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 2:41pm

the new puritanism. some may not like this but i have my doubts that the chief concern is the trafficed women.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 2:41pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The neo Marxists don't defend the sex industry

Sorry didn't mean to bend your ploughshare out of shape

This use of the word ''worker'' though...it creeps in everywhere. And then the newly doffed workers can be told what to unite against. It's a load of crap.

23-05-2019 2:49pm

Zorya wrote: »

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

I don't mind people transacting sex in a well mannered way at all. In fact to the horror of some I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services. in fact, I advised a sibling to do likewise when things were tough. In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Legalise it, regularise it, tax it.

Make it safe for the prostitutes and for the clients.

Sex is normal and healthy, let people enjoy it in a safe manner.

NSAman · 23-05-2019 2:58pm

Obviously the oldest trade in the world will always continue.

Who are the people buying sex in this way? Well having lived beside a brothel in Dublin in an apartment block I can tell you many, many types of men. The business was brisk.

Being woken by the doorbell ringing at 2am and someone trying to walk into your apartment for sex (because they had the wrong door) is not nice.

Men were from all backgrounds, rich, poor, Irish and Foreign.... so it is something that many men do.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 3:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Legalise it, regularise it, tax it.

Make it safe for the prostitutes and for the clients.

Sex is normal and healthy, let people enjoy it in a safe manner.

Yes, I know it's normal, healthy and enjoyable and I know prostitution will always exist and even has a role in a functioning civilisation.

But decriminalising is not working because in spite of what some are saying here human trafficking is increasing throughout Europe and globally.
So something is very wrong. It's not working. The Nordic model maybe? I don't know enough about it, but that criminalises the punter, so it is not a free for all.

People are seeking bad sex in different ways, eg not substituting protected prostitutes for those trafficked and also from accounts that I have read becoming more base in their demands of those who are prostitutes. So, not only not caring that they are slaves but actively abusing them - some say violent debased porn is at the root of such appetites.

Therefore on the whole one could argue that the standard liberal response of legalise and regulate is NOT WORKING in this case. That cannot be ignored. Unless one wants to live with many thousands of abused slaves in our midst.

Former Observer · 23-05-2019 3:08pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the new puritanism. some may not like this but i have my doubts that the chief concern is the trafficed women.

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 3:11pm

Former Observer wrote: »

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

good luck with that.

no sex is not a right but if it is available people will avail themselves of it

23-05-2019 3:12pm

Zorya wrote: »

Yes, I know it's normal, healthy and enjoyable and I know prostitution will always exist and even has a role in a functioning civilisation.

But decriminalising is not working because in spite of what some are saying here human trafficking is increasing throughout Europe and globally.
So something is very wrong. It's not working. The Nordic model maybe? I don't know enough about it, but that criminalises the punter, so it is not a free for all.

People are seeking bad sex in different ways, eg not substituting protected prostitutes for those trafficked and also from accounts that I have read becoming more base in their demands of those who are prostitutes. So, not only not caring that they are slaves but actively abusing them - some say violent debased porn is at the root of such appetites.

Therefore on the whole one could argue that the standard liberal response of legalise and regulate is NOT WORKING in this case. That cannot be ignored. Unless one wants to live with many thousands of abused slaves in our midst.

I honestly think you are bringing a lot of your own preconceptions to this topic.

Some people are just seeking sex.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:13pm

Former Observer wrote: »

The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small.

Literally those are the reasons why I have a job.

Former Observer wrote: »

A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

I think the majority of defenders of safe, legalised prostitution recognise that daughter or not, they don't own women so can't make decisions for them. They probably also recognise that men are also prostitutes.

23-05-2019 3:14pm

Former Observer wrote: »

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

It wouldn't be for me, but why do you describe it as "disgusting"?

Former Observer · 23-05-2019 3:15pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the majority of defenders of safe, legalised prostitution recognise that daughter or not, they don't own women so can't make decisions for them.

We make decisions about what people can do all of the time. They are called laws.

cgcsb wrote: »

They probably also recognise that men are also prostitutes.

As you are very well aware, the vast majority of prostitutes are women, and the vast majority of buyers of sex are men. Yes there are male prostitutes. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:16pm

Zorya wrote: »

These people are so poor that they have no choice.

And you probably would take that legal route out of poverty away from them.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:16pm

Zorya wrote: »

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

citation needed.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:18pm

Zorya wrote: »

Cannot understand how people fund it.

Have you ever shopped in Pennys?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 3:30pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Have you ever shopped in Pennys?

I don't actually. Rarely buy clothes at all. Second hand shops mostly. Because of child labour. And yet I know that a load of the stuff I enjoy in every day life is on the backs of slaves elsewhere. I really really hate it and try to minimise it, though it is impossible to avoid altogether. Unfortunately. Fair trade etc are some compromises. But you are engaging in whataboutery. It's not useful to women and children in sex slavery if people say but our coffee is drenched in someone elses blood, so sucks to be you.

joe40 · 23-05-2019 3:36pm

This is an important topic and does show a really nasty side to our society. The numbers involved mean it is widespread.
Accessing sexual services from a consenting,
functioning adult that is doing that job to make money is one thing.
The problem is the amount of men that are willing to pay for sex with zero thought to the plight of the women involved (sometimes virtually children) is heartbreaking.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 3:41pm

joe40 wrote: »

This is an important topic and does show a really nasty side to our society. The numbers involved mean it is widespread.
Accessing sexual services from a consenting,
functioning adult that is doing that job to make money is one thing.
The problem is the amount of men that are willing to pay for sex with zero thought to the plight of the women involved (sometimes virtually children) is heartbreaking.

agreed but what is to be done about it?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 3:41pm

joe40 wrote: »

This is an important topic and does show a really nasty side to our society. The numbers involved mean it is widespread.
Accessing sexual services from a consenting,
functioning adult that is doing that job to make money is one thing.
The problem is the amount of men that are willing to pay for sex with zero thought to the plight of the women involved (sometimes virtually children) is heartbreaking.

Thanks Joe, that is it. The widespread nature of it confuses me, because for it to be so proftable it means regular ordinary people have sex with sex slaves. How does one do that and feel ok?

It's not only about men v women, though - a lot of the people who sell into slavery in the first place or who manage the slaves later are women, from what i have read anyways. Shockingly.

Feisar · 23-05-2019 3:44pm

Fungal infections that had spread down their legs?!! Well I see people are ignoring Rule number one then, never stick yer penis where you wouldn't stick yer tongue.

Sad to say I've heard the phrase "she was just a whore" or words to that effect more than once. People are very quick to dehumanize others when it suits them. Or make excuses, "sure if it's not me it'd be someone else". Sad to say empathy is in short supply.

“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”

― Aldo Leopold

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 3:46pm

are all ethical people always ethical at all times?

Feisar · 23-05-2019 3:50pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

are all ethical people always ethical at all times?

It's a bit like a driving test. One can get so many x's in certain categories and still pass but one x in the red is a fail.
Propping up a semi conscious woman and having sex with her because someone paid their thirty pieces of silver is a fail.

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2019 3:53pm

Zorya wrote: »

Sorry didn't mean to bend your ploughshare out of shape This use of the word ''worker'' though...it creeps in everywhere. And then the newly doffed workers can be told what to unite against. It's a load of crap.

I'm well to the right of FG but the point stands, the PC left do not support the sex industry

King of Kings · 23-05-2019 3:53pm

joe40 wrote: »

This is an important topic and does show a really nasty side to our society. The numbers involved mean it is widespread.
Accessing sexual services from a consenting,
functioning adult that is doing that job to make money is one thing.
The problem is the amount of men that are willing to pay for sex with zero thought to the plight of the women involved (sometimes virtually children) is heartbreaking.

If the sex is consentual why should one be concerned about what factors brought somebody to that arrangement.
There are many factors that are probably not pleasant that bringa both into selling/buying sex.
But is the price/service is agreed who are others to ban what adults do. We need to allow adukts control of their lives to act as they wish.
This notion of requiring others to second guess everybody else curcumstances is stupid

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:55pm

Former Observer wrote: »

We make decisions about what people can do all of the time. They are called laws.

hence the current debate,

Former Observer wrote: »

As you are very well aware, the vast majority of prostitutes are women, and the vast majority of buyers of sex are men. Yes there are male prostitutes. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

point being people who want to make prostitution illegal probably wouldn't dream of telling a man what to do with his body.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 3:57pm

Zorya wrote: »

I don't actually. Rarely buy clothes at all. Second hand shops mostly. Because of child labour. And yet I know that a load of the stuff I enjoy in every day life is on the backs of slaves elsewhere. I really really hate it and try to minimise it, though it is impossible to avoid altogether. Unfortunately. Fair trade etc are some compromises. But you are engaging in whataboutery. It's not useful to women and children in sex slavery if people say but our coffee is drenched in someone elses blood, so sucks to be you.

the question was, how do people pay for it, the answer is, people buy lots of things of questionable ethical origin

Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

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