Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

Thelonious Monk · 23-05-2019 12:02PM

Zorya wrote: »

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

I really don't think the majority of prostitutes in Ireland are trafficked. If you look at the websites here they seem to be girls from the UK and Czech and places like that. Maybe I'm being naïve I don't know.
I wouldn't want my friends or relatives doing the job but if they're not trafficked I think you can say the women have made their own choice in getting into this line of work, and I don't think they should be punished for it, but maybe nor should the men.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2019 12:08PM

Zorya wrote: »

Perhaps you could take a look at the analyses I linked which find that decriminalising prostitution not only does nothing to prevent women (and children) being trafficked it INCREASES it. By rather a lot.

well then tackle the problem of trafficking.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 12:17PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The former. I type insanely fast. I have never entered into competitions for this because none have presented themselves. But I reckon I would shock a few people. My boss often jokes "Where is that machine gun I hear coming from". Though the humour, small as it is, is lost in translation I think.

The speed at which you read my post before replying, assuming you even did, is just as impressive to me though since we are commenting on each other capabilities. 7 minutes, if that, to read the entire thing and evaluate it's contents in a closing one liner? That is impressive.

Vague sentence you have not actually anchored in any way to anything I wrote. I suspect it is meaningless knee jerk filler. But by all means qualify it if you wish.

Lucky you, I type slowly.

Yes, I read fast.

If I may qualify it - essentially it is the nonchalant comparing of things that are not the same, and wondering how one can condemn the doings of others - eg buying illegal fags or downloading music is not comparable to having sex with a slave. Nor is getting one's nails done. The person doing nails is not being in anyway subjected to the same level of physical possession as a person having sex. It is morally relative to draw such comparisons.
People given choice do not appear overall to ethically source their product be it cheap oil or cheap sex.
Light touch laissez faire regulation of activities that are fundamentally open, even likely, to being abused is in its very essence morally relative, but it is the liberal go to position. Who am I to judge etc?
But I feel I can judge that the kidnapping or purchase of a young Romanian or Russian person, the subsequent incarceration and subjugation of that person against their will and their sale for use by multiple persons as a sex slave is an activity that has to be approached as among the most contemptible possible for humans to do. And any action - including decriminalisation of prostitution - that fuels such crime is wrong. Just plain wrong. No big fancy arguments about it. Just wrong.

Plus to be honest this idea that you could be wholly blind to the nature of the persons wellbeing with whom you are intimately engaged is not believable. Unless you choose not to care.

Berserker · 23-05-2019 12:20PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

On the other hand, it’s going to happen anyway so at least if its legalised then women are in less danger and not criminalised. I don’t know, I used to be completely in favour of legalisation but looking at the countries where it is it doesn’t seem hugely successful.

Is it really going to happen, anyway? Legalisation hasn't worked in other countries, so I'm happy that Ireland has decided to try another path. The Gardai are enforcing the new laws here and a number of people have been arrested and cases have been filed against them. A number of media outlets have reported on this of late. The forum on a very well known escorting site, has a number of posts from people who have decided to stop using these services.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 12:25PM

Zorya wrote: »

Two of the links are studies, two are articles..

Ok well one article is an opinion piece on someones blog and the other article has no actual data in it so there is nothing there to evaluate.

In fact all the article says is that Sweden implemented a model, and other people are thinking of copying it. And it discusses some pretty awful problems with that model and it's ultimate effects.

Any other claim the article makes is not substantiated, just declared and the only link there does not even work. Which is not helpful. In fact the article itself is clear that any conclusions reached, are likely entirely subjective!

So let us turn to the studies:

STUDY 1

Your quote from this one directly parallels one of my two concerns that I listed. You quoted "On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.". The word reported here is VERY VERY important as it is in fact core to one of the arguments pro-legal sex work people make. Which is that in a LEGAL sex work environment you will get more REPORTS of crimes. Which is what we want! This is a good thing!

However the title of that paper is not "Does it increase reporting" but "Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking" itself. And unfortunately your quoting from the report Summary at the start was rather selective in this regard. We can also quote, for example, the following from the same report:

Naturally, this qualitative evidence is also somewhat tentative as there is no “smoking gun” proving that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect and that the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows. The problem here lies in the clandestine nature of both the prostitution and trafficking markets, making it difficult, perhaps impossible, to find hard evidence establishing this relationship.

In other words the papers conclusions are the opposite of what you might want them to be. The paper DOES conclude that making it legal increases REPORTS of trafficking. And I repeat: This is a good thing.

Finally I also note your selective quoting leaves out the final conclusion of the paper which I 100% agree with:

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking.

However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes—at least those legally employed—if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.

TLDR: It is not clear you read past the summary of this paper as it's conclusions do not match your own. Further the one sentence you did quote from it, I suspect you did not fully understand the implication of given it does not match your descriptions of those conclusions.

STUDY 2

Not.... actually a study at all. In fact this study is nothing more than a commentary on the previous one you linked to? Am I mixing up your links? You claimed to have linked to two studies and two articles. To which second study do you refer exactly?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 23-05-2019 12:26PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well then tackle the problem of trafficking.

One way of tackling it, a very effective one, is not to increase supply by increasing demand by decriminalising or legalising the purchase of sex.

I used to be totally in favour of legalisation, consenting adults, world's oldest profession etc. It's natural to intuit that legalisation would lead to harm reduction. But much like legalising abortion or decriminalising drugs we're not whistling in the dark here, we have the data from other countries who have taken various approaches and the evidence, disappointing and counter intuitive as it is, is in, legalisation of the purchase of sex leads to increased trafficking.

When watching the happy hookers who get rolled out to advocate for legalisation we'd do well to remember that a largely criminal business with a global annual revenue of billions is quite the vested interest. These women are almost always Anglophone, got into the work as an adult and don't have a pimp, which makes them incredibly unrepresentative of sex workers world wide, why should we assume their views are representative?

There was an AMA with an Irish sex worker here recently, she was an independent operator, said as far as she could tell most of the Irish girls were the same but she's be concerned about the majority of the non-Irish ones. Apart from trafficking one of the tactics is targeting women in direct provision centres.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with transactional sex and I know there are people who do it totally willingly, love the money, enjoy the work. But they're a vanishingly small minority. In countries where it's totally prohibited, totally legalised and everywhere in between the majority of sex workers are desperate, vulnerable people. I wish it otherwise but it ain't.

Gimme A Pound · 23-05-2019 12:32PM

Grayson wrote: »

Just because a sex act is transactional doesn't make it immoral despite what some people argue.

Shur who'd say that apart from religious fundamentalists and radical feminists?

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2019 12:34PM

Abdullah Eager Organ wrote: »

One way of tackling it, a very effective one, is not to increase supply by increasing demand by decriminalising or legalising the purchase of sex.

I used to be totally in favour of legalisation, consenting adults, world's oldest profession etc. It's natural to intuit that legalisation would lead to harm reduction. But much like legalising abortion or decriminalising drugs we're not whistling in the dark here, we have the data from other countries who have taken various approaches and the evidence, disappointing and counter intuitive as it is, is in, legalisation of the purchase of sex leads to increased trafficking.

When watching the happy hookers who get rolled out to advocate for legalisation we'd do well to remember that a largely criminal business with a global annual revenue of billions is quite the vested interest. These women are almost always Anglophone, got into the work as an adult and don't have a pimp, which makes them incredibly unrepresentative of sex workers world wide, why should we assume their views are representative?

There was an AMA with an Irish sex worker here recently, she was an independent operator, said as far as she could tell most of the Irish girls were the same but she's be concerned about the majority of the non-Irish ones. Apart from trafficking one of the tactics is targeting women in direct provision centres.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with transactional sex and I know there are people who do it totally willingly, love the money, enjoy the work. But they're a vanishingly small minority. In countries where it's totally prohibited, totally legalised and everywhere in between the majority of sex workers are desperate, vulnerable people. I wish it otherwise but it ain't.

i posted that before reading nozzs post on the studies linked to by the OP. It seems the assertion by the OP that you have repeated in bold above is not supported.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 12:38PM

Zorya wrote: »

If I may qualify it - essentially it is the nonchalant comparing of things that are not the same

I did not compare the things not the same though. I compared peoples REACTIONS to those very different things. Which is not the same thing at all.

If I compare your reaction to the taste of concrete to your reaction to the taste of my wonderful three alcohol Irish Car Bomb cup cakes..... I would not be comparing concrete to cupcakes. I would be comparing YOUR reaction to tasting concrete and cup cakes.

Similarly when I was discussing peoples reactions to buying sex services, and downloading music.... I was in NO WAY AT ALL comparing buying sex services, and downloading music.

So it seems the relativism you imagine I suffer from is based on my having something something you also imagined. Your relativism however....

Zorya wrote: »

Nor is getting one's nails done. The person doing nails is not being in anyway subjected to the same level of physical possession as a person having sex.

..... is problematic here. In both cases they are trafficked slaves against their will. I do not equivocate between these things as you do. A trafficked slave is a trafficked slave and the plight of one is no less a moral concern to me than the other just because one of them is making fingers nails look pretty. Either we have moral and ethical concern for trafficked slaves.... or we do not.

Zorya wrote: »

People given choice do not appear overall to ethically source their product

And yet many more people buy legitimate tobacco than not. Many more people buy DVDs than download illegally. So I am not sure you are correct here at all.

But I am open to trialing it to find out. Let us develop and implement a solution, similar to the one I described already, and see where consumer footfall goes. Has the model I propose been tried anywhere? Did it work? Or not? I am not aware of anything similar having been implemented.

Zorya wrote: »

And any action - including decriminalisation of prostitution - that fuels such crime is wrong. Just plain wrong. No big fancy arguments about it. Just wrong.

ANY arguments would be useful, big or fancy or not. Child slave labour has been used to produce clothes yet no one calls for the banning of clothes or stating that any industry of clothing is to be blamed for the crimes within it. While we recently called for the heads of the Bankers who committed fraud and crimes in our finance system, hardly anyone speaks out against the existence of the banking industry.

In fact only sex work, and perhaps to a lesser decree recreational drugs, are subject to this selectively applied standard it would seem. Only there do we find people indicting the industry with the crimes of those within it. Every where else we seem cognitively capable of separating the industry from it's criminals and acting separately and correctly in response to both.

Zorya wrote: »

Plus to be honest this idea that you could be wholly blind to the nature of the persons wellbeing with whom you are intimately engaged is not believable. Unless you choose not to care.

Alas we do it as a species all the time. We seem to be no more or less blind to the possible plight of people in other industries when we deal with them. A walk down temple bar on any night of the week affords me with almost no visions whatsoever of people being anything but blind to the well being of the bouncers or bar staff for example. And I am hard pushed to find anyone too concerned with the well being of the Garda who patrol our streets.

Thinking about the well being of others is alas not a strong point of our species in quite a number of contexts. I would be hesitant to mangle that into an anti sex work narrative therefore.

snotboogie · 23-05-2019 12:40PM

Zorya wrote: »

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

Source for that?

Assetbacked · 23-05-2019 12:48PM

The money raised from taxes associated with legalisation can be used for improving the industry and welfare of the people involved. Right now there are voluntary and charitable organisations living off scraps to safeguard the women involved with the authorities focused on enforcement. The money for both of these comes from the general taxation pot. This is not sustainable and inevitably the money going to enforcement and charities will end up decreasing over time. This alone is a reason for legalising the industry.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 12:51PM

snotboogie wrote: »

Source for that?

Havocscope indicated that prostitution revenue can be estimated at around $186.00 billion per year worldwide. According to a report published in 2012 by Fondation Scelles, prostitution has a global dimension, involving around 40-42 million people worldwide, of which 90% are dependent on a procurer. 75% of them are between 13 and 25 years old.
The most conservative official statistics suggest that 1 in 7 prostitutes in Europe are victims of trafficking, while some Member States estimate that between 60% and 90% of those in their respective national prostitution markets have been trafficked. Moreover,the data available confirm that most trafficking in Europe is for the purposes ofsexual exploitation, principally of women and girls.

Dependant on a procurer means a pimp or a trafficker.
This is a quote from a 2014 EU parliament document. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/2014/493040/IPOL-FEMM_ET(2014)493040_EN.pdf

Stand by for armchair analysts to pick out ''very important'' words...... :rolleyes:

Zorya · 23-05-2019 12:54PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Alas we do it as a species all the time. We seem to be no more or less blind to the possible plight of people in other industries when we deal with them. A walk down temple bar on any night of the week affords me with almost no visions whatsoever of people being anything but blind to the well being of the bouncers or bar staff for example. And I am hard pushed to find anyone too concerned with the well being of the Garda who patrol our streets.

Thinking about the well being of others is alas not a strong point of our species in quite a number of contexts. I would be hesitant to mangle that into an anti sex work narrative therefore.

The generalising of the degenerate masses and the ''soft bigotry of low expectations''...

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 12:57PM

Zorya wrote: »

Dependant on a procurer means a pimp or a trafficker.

Which does not support the claim you made, for which the user asked a source. To support the claim you made you would have to separate out the statistics on pimping and trafficking. It is the figures for the LATTER only that would support your case.

While there are many problems with sex work through a pimp, having a pimp does NOT mean you were trafficked and hence does not support the claim the majority of prostitutes are trafficked.

Also I notice you selectively bolded the bit you liked. The quote you offered discussed the upper AND lower ranges of current estimates. You contrived to only bold the upper limit because it suits you. The lower limit also mentioned of 1 in 7 is far from the "majority" you are claiming.

So your claim is still awaiting an actual source.

Zorya wrote: »

Stand by for armchair analysts to pick out ''very important'' words......

Or in other words, wait for people to parse the contents of a study correctly and not distort them with selective quoting? Yea stand by for that indeed.

As for the armchair comment, aside from being petty it is also not really representative. Reading, parsing, and understanding the methodologies and conclusions behind published works of science..... is smack bang in the middle of what I do. You are in my field there.

Zorya wrote: »

The generalising of the degenerate masses and the ''soft bigotry of low expectations''...

So no actual response to ANYTHING I wrote then huh? Clear who is using the armchairs here. And it ain't me. While I am sure your heart is in the exact right place here, the same place as mine, in your concern for the well being of trafficked slaves........ I am not sure you are doing that cause or it's credibility and good by distorting quotes, studies, and people replying to you.

sbsquarepants · 23-05-2019 01:05PM

Zorya wrote: »

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

I don't know, I'm sure trafficking exists (especially at the more depraved end of the scale) but I'd be amazed if it's that's big a percentage of the overall, especially in places where it's legal. There's no way it's the majority or anything close to it.

Why take the risk of trafficking people and all the trouble that could bring if you could just stick a "hooker wanted" add somewhere?

Nobody traffics plumbers!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 01:11PM

A concern of mine is exactly how we are defining "trafficking". The studies being linked to do not seem to be very clear on how they define this, or how they are distinguishing from ANY kind of migration to sex work. What is the exact distinction being used between migrating, and being trafficked?

There is a legitimate concern with migration to countries where sex work is made legal. Which is that it being legal might attract immigration....... like new jobs in ANY industry....... but as Zorya's link points out there is a distinction between creating new jobs in sex work and Intel or Dell creating 2000 new jobs in tech which is that.....

"It is worth noting that in Member States in which prostitution is legalised, a residence and a work permit cannot be issued to persons entering the Member States with a view to working in prostitution. Pro-prostitution organisations are therefore advocating a system of “green cards” for prostitutes."

..... meaning in essence those that are complaining that we should not be treating sex work "like any other work" are actively creating environments that specifically MAKE it get treated not "like any other work". They are contriving to manufacture the very failings they then use against it.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 01:12PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Which does not support the claim you made, for which the user asked a source. To support the claim you made you would have to separate out the statistics on pimping and trafficking. It is the figures for the LATTER only that would support your case.

While there are many problems with sex work through a pimp, having a pimp does NOT mean you were trafficked and hence does not support the claim the majority of prostitutes are trafficked.

Also I notice you selectively bolded the bit you liked. The quote you offered discussed the upper AND lower ranges of current estimates. You contrived to only bold the upper limit because it suits you. The lower limit also mentioned of 1 in 7 is far from the "majority" you are claiming.

So your claim is still awaiting an actual source.

Or in other words, wait for people to parse the contents of a study correctly and not distort them with selective quoting? Yea stand by for that indeed.

As for the armchair comment, aside from being petty it is also not really representative. Reading, parsing, and understanding the methodologies and conclusions behind published works of science..... is smack bang in the middle of what I do. You are in my field there.

So no actual response to ANYTHING I wrote then huh? Clear who is using the armchairs here. And it ain't me. While I am sure your heart is in the exact right place here, the same place as mine, in your concern for the well being of trafficked slaves........ I am not sure you are doing that cause or it's credibility and good by distorting quotes, studies, and people replying to you.

EU parliament document - some Member States estimate that between 60% and 90% of those in their respective national prostitution markets have been trafficked.

No matter what way you attempt to parse and analyse, N, the fact IS that a large percentage of the prostitutes in Germany and Spain, at the very least, have been trafficked. 60 to 90 % according to official estimates.

Even if your disputation was to have any grounds in reality it would only be an attempt to whittle away at that percentage to some small degree, so what percentage starts to look like it is acceptable to you? If you discovered by your methods that ONLY 10% of prostitutes working in your country had been captured and held as sex slaves, how would you feel? And yet it is always going to be far more than that.
I am not going to link endless google results for this fact - but you actually do know in your heart that it is true. Trafficking is enormous. And growing bigger. It is vile. These are real people, adults and children. Not fags or DVDs.

We will have to agree to disagree at this stage because I am not going to wade through any more of your attempts to minimise the unconscionable.

Assetbacked · 23-05-2019 01:17PM

Zorya wrote: »

It is a huge and booming industry - trafficking humans, and many of them children. It's so ugly to think about. I don't feel torn on it anymore, though yes like you I used to think it would be best to legalise it. But it just seems that the subterranean appetite for degradation and abuse is too great and cannot be controlled that way. Cannot understand how people fund it.

I like to use the same arguments for forbidding anonymity on the internet!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 01:24PM

Zorya wrote: »

EU parliament document - some Member States estimate that between 60% and 90% of those in their respective national prostitution markets have been trafficked.

Again though that is ONLY the upper estimations out of a whole range of estimations. You are quoting therefore only the ones that suit you best while wholly ignoring the ones that show trafficked individuals to be the minority (1 in 7).

This does not help your case therefore as A) the data does not support you but also

your willingness to quote only the bits that suit you undermines any credibility your claims might garner. Which is not good for you or for me as we share goals here.

Zorya wrote: »

what percentage starts to look like it is acceptable to you?

Zero of course. That should be ONE of the ideals we work towards in our social response to the sex industry.

I often say on the abortion threads that no matter how extreme a pro choice or anti choice person you are..... we still nearly all share the common ground that we want ZERO abortions to actually happen. We just disagree on whether making them illegal is the right way to attain that goal.

I would say EXACTLY the same thing about sex work. Our ideal is to reduce, if possible eliminate, all trafficking. I just do not believe making it illegal as a consumer OR as a seller is the way to achieve that. Quite the opposite in fact.

But I also do not believe simply making it legal without any sensible procedures or regulation helps either. That is just as bad as making it illegal to me. Alas that IS what I see happening in countries like Germany where I now live. Tax money which proponents of a sex industry suggest would be earned and put back into that industry..... isn't for example. And useful regulations, such as the ones I proposed, are poor to non-existent.

But all that said, I ALSO say that we should not indict any industry with the crimes committed within it. Rape, slavery, kidnapping are bad things. Sex work is not. And we should not ever indict the latter with the crimes of the former.

The majority of child rape for example occurs in the family. The vast majority of children who have been raped and sexually abused, were done by a family member. I do not call for the end of the family unit or the family structure however. I realise that no matter how bad a crime is........ the environment it occurs in should rarely be indicted by proxy.

Zorya wrote: »

I am not going to link endless google results for this fact - but you actually do know in your heart that it is true. Trafficking is enormous. And growing bigger. It is vile. These are real people, adults and children. Not fags or DVDs.

We are wholly 100% in agreement here and I believe firmly your heart is 100% in the right place here on all these issues. I just think that this emotion, valid and warranted as it is, clouds your judgement on the facts and interpretation of the conclusions of studies into those facts. And I suspect that does the agenda we both share more harm than good. And I have noticed for sure in the past that if you let it, disagreements with people otherwise on your own team can get emotionally out of hand much quicker than any other.

Zorya wrote: »

We will have to agree to disagree at this stage because I am not going to wade through any more of your attempts to minimise the unconscionable.

None of which I have ever done.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 01:32PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again though that is ONLY the upper estimations out of a whole range of estimations. You are quoting therefore only the ones that suit you best while wholly ignoring the ones that show trafficked individuals to be the minority (1 in 7).

This does not help your case therefore as A) the data does not support you but also your willingness to quote only the bits that suit you undermines any credibility your claims might garner. Which is not good for you or for me as we share goals here.
.

Ironically you are berating me for doing exactly what you are doing. Choosing our evidence. You choose to minimise - the 1 in 7, and I choose to maximise, 60 - 90%. But you cannot berate me for doing what you do, which is being selective about available information.

10% of all prostitutes where you live would be 40,000 people trafficked. 1 in 7 wuld be closer to 60,000. There is no way it is as low as though figures but even if it was, it is bizarre to wonder about statistics and pick apart studies when you have effectively a brutalised, imprisoned slave class in your midst.

I was just wondering who are the ordinary people who can bring themselves to screw these (at least) tens of thousands (in Germany alone) of unfortunate people for their own pleasure.

sbsquarepants · 23-05-2019 01:33PM

Trafficking is quite a vague and emotive term - what does it even mean?

To me it implies brought against your will and forced to do something, abduction and slavery in other words. As such I just can't imagine the numbers being anything particularly significant. Of course 1 single person is still 1 too many.

If it just means moved form one place to another to work for someone else, well then intel and apple traffic people here all the time!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 01:36PM

Zorya wrote: »

Ironically you are berating me for doing exactly what you are doing. Choosing our evidence. You choose to minimise - the 1 in 7, and I choose to maximise, 60 - 90%. But you cannot berate me for doing what you do, which is being selective about available information.

But I have not done that. Anywhere. You cited one part of it, I pointed out that the other part is there TOO. At no point did I selectively quote either or. I acknowledge both as a RANGE and pointed out we should base our approach on that RANGE. As both our conclusions AND our credibility would suffer if we do anything else as you have.

Zorya wrote: »

I was just wondering who are the ordinary people who can bring themselves to screw these (at least) tens of thousands (in Germany alone) of unfortunate people for their own pleasure.

And I answered this. Most of that answer being that many people are blind, or allow themselves to be blind, to the plight of people in most industries and services they avail of, even to the plight of our planet itself in environmental issues.

We have to acknowledge much about us as a species is far from ideal. But we CAN work on coherent and useful tools to allow the victim AND the consumer AND the government AND the police the best environment to reduce trafficking to an ideal goal of Zero.

I do not believe we will ever hit Zero. It will always be there. But we can work towards that ideal. Making sex work illegal for the worker, the consumer, or legal with poor standards for either..... is not going to help any of us here.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 01:38PM

Zorya wrote: »

A few articles I read recently got me thinking again about something that has long bothered me.

How can ordinary people get off when they must suspect that the prostitutes are basically slaves?

But for this atrocious slave trade to be as enormously profitable as it is, it requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of ordinary people all over the world to be prepared to pay money every day to abuse and degrade sex slaves. That is soooo much more freaky.

Who are these ordinary monsters?

Excellent post. I think, sadly, that prostitution isn't just about sex ,as in respectful sex or even relieving sex or sex for it's own sake, at all. The abuse in a lot of cases is literally part of the thrill. I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore" (her words) and that's what they are regularly called while the transaction is ongoing and that's the least of what's done to them to show them I'm paying for you, I can do what I like and you have to take it. Imo the lack of any concern for whether the girl is trafficked is all part of the same thing. For some if not a lot of these men, it's adds to the enjoyment, even while some of them deny it to themselves.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 01:42PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Trafficking is quite a vague and emotive term - what does it even mean?

To me it implies brought against your will and forced to do something, abduction and slavery in other words. As such I just can't imagine the numbers being anything particularly significant. Of course 1 single person is still 1 too many.

If it just means moved form one place to another to work for someone else, well then intel and apple traffic people here all the time!

I'm kind of stunned that you don't think it is so. I am not a very worldly person, in fact I am regularly enough stupidly shocked at stuff, but even I know that sex trafficking is a giant problem in the world. Have you not seen the documentaries from India? There are regularly stories even in Ireland of people in brothels against their will.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/young-woman-reveals-harrowing-details-12543649

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rural-hell-of-irelands-sex-slaves-26458885.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46092085

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ireland-destination-child-sex-slave-trafficking

Zorya · 23-05-2019 01:44PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Excellent post. I think, sadly, that prostitution isn't just about sex ,as in respectful sex or even relieving sex or sex for it's own sake, at all. The abuse in a lot of cases is literally part of the thrill. I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore" (her words) and that's what they are regularly called while the transaction is ongoing and that's the least of what's done to them to show them I'm paying for you, I can do what I like and you have to take it. Imo the lack of any concern for whether the girl is trafficked is all part of the same thing. For some if not a lot of these men, it's adds to the enjoyment, even while some of them deny it to themselves.

Thanks MrsMum.
On an aside, can I employ you going forward as my post editor because you managed to cut through my waffle and keep the important stuff

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 01:46PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I remember seeing a prostitute interviewed years ago and she was saying for example they dress the way they do because they know the men do not just want sex but want to be with a sexy hooker or "dirty whore"

No idea who that prostitute was but I could hazard a guess as it is PRECISELY the same rhetoric that came from a politically active ex-sex worker who I saw on the RTE. She was however a very vile very much man-hating monstrosity of a person.

When she was finally granted an audience with politicians for example she did not discuss the plight of sex workers, the efficacy of laws or regulation, or the ethics of sex work.

Instead she decided to scream at them that ""Purchasing sex work is the expression of male misogynistic women hating" and that men having sex with sex workers are "living out their misogynistic woman hating" tendencies.

The same woman organised a march for women and women rights and she literally banned ANY men from marching in it at all. Her agenda has nothing to do with sex work and everything to do with her really really really hating men.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 01:49PM

Zorya wrote: »

Thanks MrsMum.
On an aside, can I employ you going forward as my post editor because you managed to cut through my waffle and keep the important stuff

.

It was all important. I just kept what I needed for my reply.

bnt · 23-05-2019 01:52PM

I was never exactly keen on the idea, then I got propositioned by a sex worker in London one morning, and it was just so sad it closed the door on the idea altogether. In the media, though, the "hooker with a heart of gold" is a TV Trope, a cliché. People see Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, and even though the movie does show some of the downsides to prostitution, that's not what people remember, is it?

More recently, I saw Louis Theroux's Dark States documentary, which was horrifying. By actually talking to sex workers in depth, one thing I learned is that even when they say they are doing it of their own free will, it isn't that simple. They may have made a choice, but it was a choice made from a very limited set of options, and sometimes complicated by chronic mental health problems. As as potential customer I wouldn't be able to get past all that and just enjoy myself.

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 01:53PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No idea who that prostitute was but I could hazard a guess as it is PRECISELY the same rhetoric that came from a politically active ex-sex worker who I saw on the RTE. She was however a very vile very much man-hating monstrosity of a person.

When she was finally granted an audience with politicians for example she did not discuss the plight of sex workers, the efficacy of laws or regulation, or the ethics of sex work.

Instead she decided to scream at them that ""Purchasing sex work is the expression of male misogynistic women hating" and that men having sex with sex workers are "living out their misogynistic woman hating" tendencies.

The same woman organised a march for women and women rights and she literally banned ANY men from marching in it at all. Her agenda has nothing to do with sex work and everything to do with her really really really hating men.

You would "hazard a guess" would you now. Then I guess we must all believe it so. And there I was thinking you were the person that always dealt with cold hard logic. Yet now you're making up what you want to reply to.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 01:58PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You would "hazard a guess" would you now. Then I guess we must all believe it so. And there I was thinking you were the person that always dealt with cold hard logic. Yet now you're making up what you want to reply to.

As long as a person distinguishes openly and honestly between when they are claiming fact, based on cold hard logic..... and when they are guessing..... I see nothing wrong with that.

You taking my guess, which I openly called a guess, and claiming "we must all believe it so" however is wantonly dishonest however. Because there you are putting words and positions in my mouth I never expressed. For shame.

bnt wrote: »

I was never exactly keen on the idea, then I got propositioned by a sex worker in London one morning, and it was just so sad it closed the door on the idea altogether. In the media, though, the "hooker with a heart of gold" is a TV Trope, a cliché. People see Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, and even though the movie does show some of the downsides to prostitution, that's not what people remember, is it?

It is a problem for both sides of the discussion that almost everyone discussing it has no actual direct experience of the industry. And most of those that do, tend not to admit it. So a lot of us are talking in the dark.

Certainly I have KNOWN a tiny number of people who did sex work. And they were entirely happy and lovely people who had no issue with it. They were using part time sex work to subsidise their university education. We also had a sex worker CURRENTLY in the trade do a long and interesting AMA session here on boards.ie. She was also very happy in the industry.

But it would be just as foolish of me to extrapolate anything from those tiny anecdotes as it would be to extrapolate from the anecdote of someone who got out of the industry and hated it.

Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

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