Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

Mrsmum · 23-05-2019 02:07PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As long as a person distinguishes openly and honestly between when they are claiming fact, based on cold hard logic..... and when they are guessing..... I see nothing wrong with that.

You taking my guess, which I openly called a guess, and claiming "we must all believe it so" however is wantonly dishonest however. Because there you are putting words and positions in my mouth I never expressed. For shame.

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty. Best if you and I ignore each other. That's what I'll be doing.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2019 02:09PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty. Best if you and I ignore each other. That's what I'll be doing.

Nozz quite clearly said that it was a guess on their part. No dishonesty from them at all.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 02:10PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You quoted my post and then responded to a story of your own as if your person was the same as my person. And you have the cheek to speak about dishonesty.

No cheek required. I VERY clearly said I do not know who it was and THEN VERY clearly said I could make a guess.

Nothing dishonest about any of that. Least of all because you WANT it to be dishonest.

If I said however "I know who that is!" you would have a point. As it stands now..... you really really don't. Quite the opposite in fact. The world would be a better place, especially in forums like this, were people more clear what they claim as fact, and what they claim as guess work.

So yes the dishonesty here is from you, yourself, the mum in the mirror, and thy own self. No one else.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 02:14PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No cheek required. I VERY clearly said I do not know who it was and THEN VERY clearly said I could make a guess.

Nothing dishonest about any of that. Least of all because you WANT it to be dishonest.

If I said however "I know who that is!" you would have a point. As it stands now..... you really really don't. Quite the opposite in fact. The world would be a better place, especially in forums like this, were people more clear what they claim as fact, and what they claim as guess work.

So yes the dishonesty here is from you, yourself, the mum in the mirror, and thy own self. No one else.

It was at the very least false equivalence. Not even a comma (breath) between the anecdotes...

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 02:16PM

Zorya wrote: »

It was at the very least false equivalence. Not even a comma (breath) between the anecdotes...

Actually there was a whole paragraph break between my guess, and my knowledge of the person I was guessing it was.

You are getting desperate to misrepresent this guess now the two of you. For whatever reason. I said it was a guess. I was clear it was a guess. Nothing dishonest there at all. Stop manufacturing nonsense from nowhere.

Deebles McBeebles · 23-05-2019 02:17PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Making sex work illegal for the worker, the consumer, or legal with poor standards for either..... is not going to help any of us here.

This has historically been proven to be true. Prohibition does not work, it only hands the industry to criminals.

With proper regulations and standards in place, there is no reason why the workers would not enjoy better working conditions.

If that is what the argument is. If you just plain don't like sex workers being a thing, it won't matter I suppose.

Yeah_Right · 23-05-2019 02:17PM

I've had sex with prostitutes in the past and I can honestly say that trafficking never crossed my mind. From my perspective it was clean, safe and fun. Maybe I was naive about their situation.

I fully support a legal, well regulated sex industry.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 02:22PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually there was a whole paragraph break between my guess, and my knowledge of the person I was guessing it was.

You are getting desperate to misrepresent this guess now the two of you. For whatever reason. I said it was a guess. I was clear it was a guess. Nothing dishonest there at all. Stop manufacturing nonsense from nowhere.

Actually I found it very misleading reply. Don't know what category or categories of fallacies it falls under but it was designed to make all objectors to legalisation of prostitution look akin to the wildly depicted subject of your anecdote. I was confused where the man hating angle had suddenly appeared from...

Your chosen descriptors illustrate the intention -

very vile
very much man-hating
monstrosity .

she decided to scream at them
her really really really hating men.

It was a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters and associate poster's natures with that ex sex worker's nature.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 02:22PM

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

This has historically been proven to be true. Prohibition does not work, it only hands the industry to criminals.

Indeed, and then police resources get diverted to dealing with the illegality OF the industry instead of focusing on where it should be..... the illegality WITHIN the industry.

Zorya wrote: »

Actually I found it very misleading reply.

I am unsurprised that having disagreed with me the entire thread you might suddenly contrive to find something misleading that was ABUNDANTLY clear from the first sentence.

However I notice also you have now moved away from discussing the topic of your own thread to instead having a "he said she said" discussion with me about something barely related.

The fact is I made a guess AND Was abundantly clear it was making a guess. That you find that misleading, says more about you than me.

Zorya wrote: »

Don't know what category or categories of fallacies it falls under but it was designed to make all objectors to legalisation of prostitution look akin to the wildly depicted subject of your anecdote. I was confused where the man hating angle had suddenly appeared from...

Simple. It has come ENTIRELY from you. As none of that intention described above was in my post. You have manufactured it entirely and solely by yourself. I spoke only and solely about one single individual. YOU are doing the rest of the projection by yourself.

Actually as interesting evidence against your nonsense claim here, I wrote a long post reviewing the RTE documentary the woman appeared in and wrote at length about how if I was against sex work I would feel hard done by and misrepresented by the RTE by their choice of her as a speaker. And I did that precisely because I do NOT see her as a representative of the anti Prostituition lobby, in the exact opposite way you are now pretending that I do.

I can link you to said review on request if you like.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 02:27PM

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

With proper regulations and standards in place, there is no reason why the workers would not enjoy better working conditions.

If that is what the argument is. If you just plain don't like sex workers being a thing, it won't matter I suppose.

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

I don't mind people transacting sex in a well mannered way at all. In fact to the horror of some I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services. in fact, I advised a sibling to do likewise when things were tough. In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Deebles McBeebles · 23-05-2019 02:32PM

Zorya wrote: »

In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Well that's the ideal but it has to be legal in order to get there. I doubt you'll find many disagreeing with that. The voluntary and adult parts in particular!

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 02:33PM

Zorya wrote: »

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

Thus far though you have only evidenced that REPORTS of trafficking have increased, not that actual trafficking has.

That said though there is of course going to be SOME increase in it if we legalise because if demand goes up then trafficking will go up. I just do not think the increase is as large as you might claim by far.

But if trafficking is a % of the whole, then if the whole goes up, the trafficking will go up too. If there is double the number of sex workers working, then of course you will as a % likely have double the number of trafficked sex workers. That is simply mathematics percentages. 100 workers when it was illegal 2 of which were trafficked will likely mean if there is 200 workers after it is legalised, that 4 of them will be trafficked.

The question then becomes if legalising and regulating it influences that % in and of itself. Is there any evidence it does? The links you provided so far to support that claim said, as I pointed out at the time, the opposite. That the evidence was quite weak in fact.

Zorya wrote: »

I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services.

Out of curiosity how was he to identify a reputable service over any other? I do not know the industry "on the ground" enough in Ireland at this time to know how when going to an escort you can currently ascertain their level of legitimacy.

Until we have not just legal sex work, but regulated in a way that you CAN identify " independent and voluntarily self employed adult persons" to do it with...... how do you propose someone do so?

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2019 02:36PM

Former Observer wrote: »

Good post. There will always be many, many more men who want to pay for sex than there will be women that want to be paid for sex. Despite the trend in orthodox liberal thinking that 'sex work' is just like any other work, it is not. The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small. A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

One of the few areas I agree with feminists, is with regards the sex trade, criminalise the buyer

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2019 02:37PM

Zorya wrote: »

Yes. It is usually poverty or trafficking. This ''worker'' phrase is modern marxist BS being applied to make abuse seem like it can be salvaged. Like surrogates are now being called ''gestational workers''. These people are so poor that they have no choice. I know there are independent consorts and escorts who maintain good standards for themselves and they are lucky. I can understand a person, man or woman, using such services where there is dignity and manners. But it is far far from the norm.

The neo Marxists don't defend the sex industry

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 02:39PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

One of the few areas I agree with feminists, is with regards the sex trade, criminalise the buyer

One effect of which is to ensure, literally by definition, that the clientele of any given sex worker comes from the section of society already inclined towards being breakers of the law.

Which to me does not sound like a great step towards ensuring their safety, well being, and working options. Quite the opposite as such people, being already law breakers, are likely to be LESS inclined to worry if their sex worker is trafficked or not. The primary concern of the topic of this thread.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 02:41PM

the new puritanism. some may not like this but i have my doubts that the chief concern is the trafficed women.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 02:41PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The neo Marxists don't defend the sex industry

Sorry didn't mean to bend your ploughshare out of shape

This use of the word ''worker'' though...it creeps in everywhere. And then the newly doffed workers can be told what to unite against. It's a load of crap.

23-05-2019 02:49PM

Zorya wrote: »

And yet the evidence from Spain or Germany suggests they do not enjoy better working conditions. Trafficking increases.

I don't mind people transacting sex in a well mannered way at all. In fact to the horror of some I advised a chap in the PI forum to access reputable sex services. in fact, I advised a sibling to do likewise when things were tough. In fact, if left on a shelf, I might very well access such services myself! But from an independent and voluntarily self employed adult person.

Legalise it, regularise it, tax it.

Make it safe for the prostitutes and for the clients.

Sex is normal and healthy, let people enjoy it in a safe manner.

NSAman · 23-05-2019 02:58PM

Obviously the oldest trade in the world will always continue.

Who are the people buying sex in this way? Well having lived beside a brothel in Dublin in an apartment block I can tell you many, many types of men. The business was brisk.

Being woken by the doorbell ringing at 2am and someone trying to walk into your apartment for sex (because they had the wrong door) is not nice.

Men were from all backgrounds, rich, poor, Irish and Foreign.... so it is something that many men do.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 03:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Legalise it, regularise it, tax it.

Make it safe for the prostitutes and for the clients.

Sex is normal and healthy, let people enjoy it in a safe manner.

Yes, I know it's normal, healthy and enjoyable and I know prostitution will always exist and even has a role in a functioning civilisation.

But decriminalising is not working because in spite of what some are saying here human trafficking is increasing throughout Europe and globally.
So something is very wrong. It's not working. The Nordic model maybe? I don't know enough about it, but that criminalises the punter, so it is not a free for all.

People are seeking bad sex in different ways, eg not substituting protected prostitutes for those trafficked and also from accounts that I have read becoming more base in their demands of those who are prostitutes. So, not only not caring that they are slaves but actively abusing them - some say violent debased porn is at the root of such appetites.

Therefore on the whole one could argue that the standard liberal response of legalise and regulate is NOT WORKING in this case. That cannot be ignored. Unless one wants to live with many thousands of abused slaves in our midst.

Former Observer · 23-05-2019 03:08PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

the new puritanism. some may not like this but i have my doubts that the chief concern is the trafficed women.

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 03:11PM

Former Observer wrote: »

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

good luck with that.

no sex is not a right but if it is available people will avail themselves of it

23-05-2019 03:12PM

Zorya wrote: »

Yes, I know it's normal, healthy and enjoyable and I know prostitution will always exist and even has a role in a functioning civilisation.

But decriminalising is not working because in spite of what some are saying here human trafficking is increasing throughout Europe and globally.
So something is very wrong. It's not working. The Nordic model maybe? I don't know enough about it, but that criminalises the punter, so it is not a free for all.

People are seeking bad sex in different ways, eg not substituting protected prostitutes for those trafficked and also from accounts that I have read becoming more base in their demands of those who are prostitutes. So, not only not caring that they are slaves but actively abusing them - some say violent debased porn is at the root of such appetites.

Therefore on the whole one could argue that the standard liberal response of legalise and regulate is NOT WORKING in this case. That cannot be ignored. Unless one wants to live with many thousands of abused slaves in our midst.

I honestly think you are bringing a lot of your own preconceptions to this topic.

Some people are just seeking sex.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 03:13PM

Former Observer wrote: »

The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small.

Literally those are the reasons why I have a job.

Former Observer wrote: »

A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

I think the majority of defenders of safe, legalised prostitution recognise that daughter or not, they don't own women so can't make decisions for them. They probably also recognise that men are also prostitutes.

23-05-2019 03:14PM

Former Observer wrote: »

And I have my doubts that your concern is for the personal well being of these women.

Sex is not a right. If you are lucky you'll find someone to have sex with, perhaps even somebody you love, but this notion that if a lad has gone without sex for a few months he should be able to walk in off the street and deposit his load in some eighteen or nineteen year old girl's mouth (basically a child) just because he has a fat wallet is disgusting. It is the commodification of human beings. You will always find people willing to be abused for money, that doesn't mean you should do it. The number of women that sell their bodies that come from a position of health, strength and happiness is tiny. Have some self discipline ffs.

The "tax it, regulate it, and make it safe" (lol) argument is the facile mirror image of the argument that all prostitutes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately the situation is more complex than that.

It wouldn't be for me, but why do you describe it as "disgusting"?

Former Observer · 23-05-2019 03:15PM

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the majority of defenders of safe, legalised prostitution recognise that daughter or not, they don't own women so can't make decisions for them.

We make decisions about what people can do all of the time. They are called laws.

cgcsb wrote: »

They probably also recognise that men are also prostitutes.

As you are very well aware, the vast majority of prostitutes are women, and the vast majority of buyers of sex are men. Yes there are male prostitutes. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 03:16PM

Zorya wrote: »

These people are so poor that they have no choice.

And you probably would take that legal route out of poverty away from them.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 03:16PM

Zorya wrote: »

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

citation needed.

cgcsb · 23-05-2019 03:18PM

Zorya wrote: »

Cannot understand how people fund it.

Have you ever shopped in Pennys?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 03:30PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Have you ever shopped in Pennys?

I don't actually. Rarely buy clothes at all. Second hand shops mostly. Because of child labour. And yet I know that a load of the stuff I enjoy in every day life is on the backs of slaves elsewhere. I really really hate it and try to minimise it, though it is impossible to avoid altogether. Unfortunately. Fair trade etc are some compromises. But you are engaging in whataboutery. It's not useful to women and children in sex slavery if people say but our coffee is drenched in someone elses blood, so sucks to be you.

Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

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