Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ShaneC1600 · 22-12-2019 10:20pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm not sure what this is, or who prepared it, but it appears to be just a list of towns and their populations, followed by a conclusion floating in midair. It is not an objective analysis or forecast of travel demand.

At one point (about a year ago) Minister Ciarán Cannon was quoting a cost/benefit score of 100/6 for reopening the WRC, compared to a 100/80 action threshold. This statistic was traced back to a reference Leo Varadkar made in the Dáil on 14/02/2018 to a prior cost/benefit appraisal. See: p. 587 of https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/debateRecord/dail/2018-02-14/debate/mul@/main.pdf. But in fact, there was no such report (please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, the most recent appraisal I can find is the 2012 AECOM/Goodbody Report. That report scored the Athenry-Tuam line at 100/61, and concluded at Section 14.10:

"A number of new rail lines have been proposed by various interests. Of these, a sketch appraisal indicates that only the Athenry-Tuam line merits further consideration, taking account of the performance of Phase 1 of the Western Rail corridor between Ennis and Athenry. None of the others perform sufficiently well to be further considered."

It's my understanding that ridership is greatly improved on Phase 1 since 2012. And my takeaways are:

1. Politicians are prone to be really poor sources for trustworthy data.
2. The current rail review is warranted and is not a waste of money.

I have requested this report and figures to be referenced for an age now, never could get an answer! Those figures are used constantly against the railway, right or wrong!

end of the road · 22-12-2019 11:41pm

Isambard wrote: »

OK then, does Ennis have a half hourly service to Limerick? Whichever way you slice it, Tuam with 8000 odd persons does not warrant special treatment. A half hourly or hourly service is preposterous. The guy knows this, he's just being controversial,.

incorrect, i'm deadly serious.
other services being not what they should is not the fault of others, it's the fault of the powers that be.
tuam getting a proper half hourly outer suburban service if it was to reopen wouldn't be special treatment, it would be simple proper operation for an outer suburban service.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 3:46am

Athery to Tuam is roughly 25 km. To that and back again in half an hour on a single line would entail an average of 100km/h. It's not physically possible.

end of the road · 23-12-2019 3:54am

Isambard wrote: »

Athery to Tuam is roughly 25 km. To that and back again in half an hour on a single line would entail an average of 100km/h. It's not physically possible.

which is where double tracking athenry to galway would come in, something that is needed anyway regardless of whether there is a reopening to tuam or not, as dublin to galway should be increasing to hourly.

23-12-2019 4:48am

There's some amount of mulled wine being consumed by some on this thread lately, it's the only explanation

Isambard · 23-12-2019 10:01am

end of the road wrote: »

which is where double tracking athenry to galway would come in, something that is needed anyway regardless of whether there is a reopening to tuam or not, as dublin to galway should be increasing to hourly.

double tracking there wouldn't help the branch. It would still not be possible to do a 50km return journey including acceleration and braking time and changing ends at the terminus in half an hour.

I can't understand why a very few are looking for this service when the maximum benefit for a much larger number of people would be gained from improving this main line and others and yet it seems no one at all is clamouring for this.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 10:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

There's some amount of mulled being consumed by some on this thread lately, it's the only explanation

bizarre isn't it. I put it down to a ,lack of knowledge of railways

westtip · 23-12-2019 10:16am

Sligo eye wrote: »

It’s not April 1st is it? Could have sworn we haven’t had Christmas yet.

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report which one TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election, Sean Canney are you demanding the Rail Report? Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Quackster · 23-12-2019 10:22am

end of the road wrote: »

whether he is correct or not, ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on greenways, and these need to be areas of outstanding natural beauty, and urban cycle ways, both which are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.
just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such amenities which are unused and which the council has to take money from other actually used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

Whether anyone is correct or not, Ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on railways, and these need to be areas of highest population catchment and density, where they are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.

Just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such railways which are underused and which the state has to take money from other actually well-used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

Sligo eye · 23-12-2019 10:26am

westtip wrote: »

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report the great advocated of the railway and TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election. Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Happy Christmas to you too Westtip, enjoy the mince pies and mulled wine and let’s see what 2020 brings. I suspect we all may well be bashing away on the keyboards in the same way this time next year!

ShaneC1600 · 23-12-2019 10:45am

Isambard wrote: »

bizarre isn't it. I put it down to a ,lack of knowledge of railways

Explain why 60mph is not possible? What is the restriction?

end of the road · 23-12-2019 1:52pm

Isambard wrote: »

double tracking there wouldn't help the branch. It would still not be possible to do a 50km return journey including acceleration and braking time and changing ends at the terminus in half an hour.

I can't understand why a very few are looking for this service when the maximum benefit for a much larger number of people would be gained from improving this main line and others and yet it seems no one at all is clamouring for this.

the thread is about the western rail corridor, therefore that is what will be discussed rather then other lines.
people are looking for improvements to other lines
.

Quackster wrote: »

Whether anyone is correct or not, Ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on railways, and these need to be areas of highest population catchment and density, where they are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.

Just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such railways which are underused and which the state has to take money from other actually well-used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

just as well nobody is arguing to throw railways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to need them.

Quackster · 23-12-2019 2:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

just as well nobody is arguing to throw railways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to need them.

Just as well nobody is arguing to throw greenways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to really benefit from them!

Isambard is entirely correct though. Athey/Tuam is so far down the rail priority list that even if you trebled or quadrupled investment in rail (and I am absolutely adamant that needs to be done), there are so many much more important rail projects that would absorb all that investment. And then some.

Everyone needs to be realistic that the line north of Tuam will never ever reopen and allow the greenway to proceed on this section ASAP.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 3:06pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Explain why 60mph is not possible? What is the restriction?

It's not the maximum speed that counts, it's the line occupancy. You can have only one train in a section at a time. In the case of a single line 25km long, that means it has to run to the terminus and then you can have either another train follow it once it's at the terminus or it (or another train) can return.

The alternative is to have a crossing loop half way along, which would help but still is an obstacle with one train having to wait for another before proceding.

You can have as high a maximum speed as you like, but trains take time to accelerate and brake which reduces
your average speed a lot, and also the driver has to change ends which further reduces the average speed on a return journey.

ezstreet5 · 23-12-2019 10:04pm

westtip wrote: »

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report which one TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election, Sean Canney are you demanding the Rail Report? Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Ah. OK. This post (strangely) clarifies a lot for me regarding the political discourse surrounding the WRC reactivation. From it, I was able to locate the presentation that Minister Ciarán Cannon and anor. apparently made to EY-DKM Economic Advisory Services (the consultancy preparing the 'rail review'). Overall, there is nothing in that presentation worth remarking upon, except for one statistic on p. 6. It states that in 2018, 137,784 passengers traveled between Ennis and Athenry (which sounds reasonably accurate to me).

This equates to 377 passengers per day (every day of the year). Yet, Minister Cannon states the following to the media just a few weeks later:

“If we forensically examine the figures, the numbers using the Athenry to Ennis section average out at 39 people per day. That is horrendous. It is not sustainable,” Minister Cannon said. Emphasis Added. See: https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/ So Minister Cannon cannot be correct. He seems to be low by almost an order of magnitude!

Also, umbrage was taken at the allegation that there appears to be a campaign to shut down Phase 1 of the WRC. However, we see Minister Cannon stating as early as 2017:

'A Galway East T.D and Junior Minister says the Ennis to Athenry rail route may not be viable into the future when the M17 Gort to Tuam motorway opens.
Minister Ciaran Cannon says a decision on closing the rail route can’t be made until a full review is complete.
...
Galway East Minister of State, Ciaran Cannon says, a greenway might be a better opportunity for the Ennis to Athenry rail line.' See: https://connachttribune.ie/galway-junior-minister-says-athenry-ennis-rail-route-may-not-be-viable/

Minister Cannon! Please stop your efforts to eliminate existing rail service in the West and to prevent potential new services! And I wish you a Happy Christmas with this video of Ciarian's Cannon in

https://www.facebook.com/WalthersTrains/videos/459687704979179/

ShaneC1600 · 23-12-2019 11:15pm

Isambard wrote: »

It's not the maximum speed that counts, it's the line occupancy. You can have only one train in a section at a time. In the case of a single line 25km long, that means it has to run to the terminus and then you can have either another train follow it once it's at the terminus or it (or another train) can return.

The alternative is to have a crossing loop half way along, which would help but still is an obstacle with one train having to wait for another before proceding.

You can have as high a maximum speed as you like, but trains take time to accelerate and brake which reduces
your average speed a lot, and also the driver has to change ends which further reduces the average speed on a return journey.

Ok I understand how track sections work, how long are you saying the train will take to get from Athenry to Tuam using say, the 2800 for instance without any passing loop because that wont happen as we know. And a higher max speed will increase your average speed too.

Greaney · 23-12-2019 11:19pm

Quackster wrote: »

Just as well nobody is arguing to throw greenways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to really benefit from them!

Isambard is entirely correct though. Athey/Tuam is so far down the rail priority list that even if you trebled or quadrupled investment in rail (and I am absolutely adamant that needs to be done), there are so many much more important rail projects that would absorb all that investment. And then some.

Everyone needs to be realistic that the line north of Tuam will never ever reopen and allow the greenway to proceed on this section ASAP.

The decision regarding the old track isn't 'everyone's to make, it's the decision of Irish Rail with the support of central government. Irish rail own the tracks, and roaring and shouting at them will achieve nothing.

Just a reminder that after the 2012 AECom/Goodbody report was so favourable about the reopening of the line for rail, that a group got together to develop it further. But as we're all finding out.... it takes tiiiiime
https://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4026145-athenrytuam-rail-action-group-launched-in-tuam

donvito99 · 24-12-2019 12:31am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Ah. OK. This post (strangely) clarifies a lot for me regarding the political discourse surrounding the WRC reactivation. From it, I was able to locate the presentation that Minister Ciarán Cannon and anor. apparently made to EY-DKM Economic Advisory Services (the consultancy preparing the 'rail review'). Overall, there is nothing in that presentation worth remarking upon, except for one statistic on p. 6. It states that in 2018, 137,784 passengers traveled between Ennis and Athenry (which sounds reasonably accurate to me).

This equates to 377 passengers per day (every day of the year). Yet, Minister Cannon states the following to the media just a few weeks later:

“If we forensically examine the figures, the numbers using the Athenry to Ennis section average out at 39 people per day. That is horrendous. It is not sustainable,” Minister Cannon said. Emphasis Added. See: https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/ So Minister Cannon cannot be correct. He seems to be low by almost an order of magnitude!

Also, umbrage was taken at the allegation that there appears to be a campaign to shut down Phase 1 of the WRC. However, we see Minister Cannon stating as early as 2017:

'A Galway East T.D and Junior Minister says the Ennis to Athenry rail route may not be viable into the future when the M17 Gort to Tuam motorway opens.
Minister Ciaran Cannon says a decision on closing the rail route can’t be made until a full review is complete.
...
Galway East Minister of State, Ciaran Cannon says, a greenway might be a better opportunity for the Ennis to Athenry rail line.' See: https://connachttribune.ie/galway-junior-minister-says-athenry-ennis-rail-route-may-not-be-viable/

Minister Cannon! Please stop your efforts to eliminate existing rail service in the West and to prevent potential new services! And I wish you a Happy Christmas with this video of Ciarian's Cannon in https://www.facebook.com/WalthersTrains/videos/459687704979179/

Isn't Cannon just mixing up pax per train with pax per day?

ezstreet5 · 24-12-2019 1:02am

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't Cannon just mixing up pax per train with pax per day?

That is one possible mixup, and if true, it would indicate that the IE 2800 Class, two-car DMUs operate on average at 46% capacity for every train throughout the year on that segment, which would be quite good.

But to be fair, I've recently observed four car IE 2800 Class consists being operated on that route, as well as (much welcomed) IE 22000 Class Intercity rolling stock on certain services.

Isambard · 24-12-2019 9:57am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Ok I understand how track sections work, how long are you saying the train will take to get from Athenry to Tuam using say, the 2800 for instance without any passing loop because that wont happen as we know. And a higher max speed will increase your average speed too.

you do the math.

I'm saying it can't do a return journey in half an hour, or anything like it which it would need to to have a half hour frequency service. It's academic anyway. It wouldn't get a frequency anything like that. 4 or 5 return trips a day maximum would be my guess.

24-12-2019 11:57am

Greaney wrote: »

The decision regarding the old track isn't 'everyone's to make, it's the decision of Irish Rail with the support of central government. Irish rail own the tracks, and roaring and shouting at them will achieve nothing.

Just a reminder that after the 2012 AECom/Goodbody report was so favourable about the reopening of the line for rail, that a group got together to develop it further. But as we're all finding out.... it takes tiiiiime
https://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4026145-athenrytuam-rail-action-group-launched-in-tuam

Let's say your Christmas wish is granted and it gets added to the queue for rail developments.

There is still about 20 years worth of more important projects ahead of it.

Thinking logically, if you have the choice between running a line to the airport or double tracking anywhere, or removing bottlenecks or Athenry to Tuam, which do you logically chose.

This is why Athenry to Tuam will not be getting developed anytime soon. Not saying never, just not in my lifetime and I was born the year it closed to regular passenger traffic, 1976.

ShaneC1600 · 24-12-2019 12:06pm

Isambard wrote: »

you do the math.

I'm saying it can't do a return journey in half an hour, or anything like it which it would need to to have a half hour frequency service. It's academic anyway. It wouldn't get a frequency anything like that. 4 or 5 return trips a day maximum would be my guess.

Good man, I didn't say it could, you said it was impossible! I asked why it couldn't do 60mph and where was the restriction.

Isambard · 24-12-2019 12:22pm

I did not say it was impossible to do 60 mph I said it was impossible to average 100 km/h on a return journey of 50 km and I told you why when you asked.

ShaneC1600 · 24-12-2019 1:59pm

Isambard wrote: »

I did not say it was impossible to do 60 mph I said it was impossible to average 100 km/h on a return journey of 50 km and I told you why when you asked.

Oh now you have proved it to be impossible. Good job.

ShaneC1600 · 24-12-2019 4:45pm

Isambard wrote: »

I have you sussed now....having read all 63 of your posts. Adding you to my blocked list now

What does that mean?

ezstreet5 · 24-12-2019 5:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This is why Athenry to Tuam will not be getting developed anytime soon. Not saying never, just not in my lifetime and I was born the year it closed to regular passenger traffic, 1976.

DaCor. Those are awfully strong words, and I am willing to bet that you are wrong (if you are a betting man). And not something insignificant, but lets wager something substantial, like a bucket of chicken.

Greaney · 24-12-2019 6:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's say your Christmas wish is granted and it gets added to the queue for rail developments.

There is still about 20 years worth of more important projects ahead of it.

Thinking logically, if you have the choice between running a line to the airport or double tracking anywhere, or removing bottlenecks or Athenry to Tuam, which do you logically chose.

This is why Athenry to Tuam will not be getting developed anytime soon. Not saying never, just not in my lifetime and I was born the year it closed to regular passenger traffic, 1976.

Which is why 'Logically' spending money on a feasibilty study for a greenway, that would cost millions (and years to build), only for it to be turned back into rail in 20-30 years as suggested here is totally crazy. Furthermore, I'd love double tracking between Athenry & Galway, great!! But the thrust of what I'm 'standing for' on this thread is that I love greenways, but never at the cost of mass transit. I'm involved in cycling advocacy myself, but I'm stunned that folk think greenways are travel infrastructure on a par with a train covering 21km (15.5miles) that links to the rest of the rail network!

I also think folk have a very short memory as the last report was so reasonably positive it prompted a working group to start stratagising. One part of this group (Ballyglunin development group) have been working tirelessly on their part of the infrastructure only to be mocked and derided by those who want Ballyglunin station to be part of a cycle track that's not even linked to the EurovVelo

24-12-2019 9:05pm

Greaney wrote: »

But the thrust of what I'm 'standing for' on this thread is that I love greenways, but never at the cost of mass transit.

There is no mass transit in existence on that line so no cost.

Greaney · 24-12-2019 9:17pm

Quackster wrote: »

Isambard is entirely correct though. Athey/Tuam is so far down the rail priority list that even if you trebled or quadrupled investment in rail (and I am absolutely adamant that needs to be done), there are so many much more important rail projects that would absorb all that investment. And then some.

Everyone needs to be realistic that the line north of Tuam will never ever reopen and allow the greenway to proceed on this section ASAP.

According to the last AECOM/Goodman report on the future of rail transportation, the Athenry Tuam line was top of the list!!

Folk were so encouraged they began to come together....
https://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4026145-athenrytuam-rail-action-group-launched-in-tuam

Greaney · 24-12-2019 9:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no mass transit in existence on that line so no cost.

No cost? Gosh where does one start...

The cost ends up somewhere else...

Galway traffic (for a start), which may end in the distruction of a community (Dangan)...
Rural de-population
Lopsided national development
Lack of planning for future infrastructure
Lack of affordable access to services outside of urban areas, for young people, the elderly, disabled
Health & Well being
Rural Divestment.
The Enviroment
Rural Isolation

wonder88 · 24-12-2019 10:05pm

The Galway Limerick route was fairly busy last Saturday, and two weeks ago, from my experience. The Oranmore station seems to be a success as well. The idea that there is no demand for rail in Ireland and car/road is what we want, may not be correct despite what Colm McCarthy etc says.

Muckyboots · 30-12-2019 5:25pm

Wait for it, wait for it ! There's one for everybody in the audience.... https://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/12/06/4183278-video-transport-minister-confirms-review-of-navan-rail-line-feasibility-will-happen-next-year/

Del.Monte · 30-12-2019 5:43pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Wait for it, wait for it ! There's one for everybody in the audience.... https://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/12/06/4183278-video-transport-minister-confirms-review-of-navan-rail-line-feasibility-will-happen-next-year/

Surely a greenway would be a better/cheaper option?

donvito99 · 30-12-2019 6:16pm

Can we please not compare Claremorris - Athenry with Navan - Dublin. It certainly does not help the WRC cause.

marno21 · 30-12-2019 6:20pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Surely a greenway would be a better/cheaper option?

A review of the 2016-2035 NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy is being undertaken so this presumably is part of it.

Muckyboots · 30-12-2019 6:29pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Surely a greenway would be a better/cheaper option?

A greenway alongside - and with every other new opening or extension.

Corca Baiscinn · 31-12-2019 9:29pm

wonder88 wrote: »

The Galway Limerick route was fairly busy last Saturday, and two weeks ago, from my experience. The Oranmore station seems to be a success as well. The idea that there is no demand for rail in Ireland and car/road is what we want, may not be correct despite what Colm McCarthy etc says.

Dont think anyone is saying there is no demand for rail, rather that heavy rail needs a certain population density to make the cost of building infrastructure and running trains worthwhile. Galway and Limerick are cities so even with the indirect routing rail travel between them will be an attractive option especially with people entitled to F/T and subsidised fares for the rest. Of course Oranmore would be a success as it's next door to Galway. Your observation imo doesn't prove anything re the need for or affordability of a train service north of Athenry and I'm saying that as a big fan of train travel.

Corca Baiscinn · 31-12-2019 9:42pm

Greaney wrote: »

No cost? Gosh where does one start...

The cost ends up somewhere else...
Galway traffic (for a start), which may end in the distruction of a community (Dangan)...

Rural de-population

Lopsided national development

Lack of planning for future infrastructure

Lack of affordable access to services outside of urban areas, for young people, the elderly, disabled

Health & Well being

Rural Divestment.

The Enviroment

Rural Isolation

Lot of exaggeration there if you're saying that a train line is the only solution to all of the above issues. Wouldn't that mean that Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal are all doomed? And how would a train from Tuam help people from there travelling to work in Parkmore? Most of the issues you cite would in fact be greatly helped by a Greenway. Brings employment so antidote to rural depopulation, brings people into an isolated rural area,supports health and well-being, good for the environment.

roadmaster · 31-12-2019 11:41pm

marno21 wrote: »

A review of the 2016-2035 NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy is being undertaken so this presumably is part of it.

The way commuting is going at the moment they may as well include the WRC in the greater dublin area transport strategy!

Lord Glentoran · 02-01-2020 1:59am

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Lot of exaggeration there if you're saying that a train line is the only solution to all of the above issues. Wouldn't that mean that Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal are all doomed? And how would a train from Tuam help people from there travelling to work in Parkmore? Most of the issues you cite would in fact be greatly helped by a Greenway. Brings employment so antidote to rural depopulation, brings people into an isolated rural area,supports health and well-being, good for the environment.

The feet of greenway campaigners need to be held to the fire on this. Let’s watch what happens with Kingscourt one to see if all the magical regeneration happens, instead of another safe space for the Lycra clad.

PeadarCo · 02-01-2020 8:53am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The feet of greenway campaigners need to be held to the fire on this. Let’s watch what happens with Kingscourt one to see if all the magical regeneration happens, instead of another safe space for the Lycra clad.

The demand for a greenaway on the Kingscourt line has been driven by locals. The line itself is useless as a passenger line without a direct connection between Navan and Dublin. Going by Drogheda will never work because buses will always be far far quicker going to Dublin(the main destination for commuter traffic) via Navan. Anyone fimilar with the Kingscourt line will also be aware how overgrown the former rail route is, to the point in large parts you wouldn't even know a railway line even existed.

Also saying greenways are only used by people in Lycra really shows a complete lack of understanding on why Greenways have been so successful. The main reason being attracting people who don't normally cycle on the roads.

Good railways are needed and there is a demand however I don't understand this obsession with old railways built in the 1800s. If you look other countries and the modern high speed lines, they built new railway lines that matched the population needs and technology of the modern day. The Bullet train in Japan being a classic example.

Sligo eye · 02-01-2020 9:22am

PeadarCo wrote: »

The demand for a greenaway on the Kingscourt line has been driven by locals. The line itself is useless as a passenger line without a direct connection between Navan and Dublin. Going by Drogheda will never work because buses will always be far far quicker going to Dublin(the main destination for commuter traffic) via Navan. Anyone fimilar with the Kingscourt line will also be aware how overgrown the former rail route is, to the point in large parts you wouldn't even know a railway line even existed.

Also saying greenways are only used by people in Lycra really shows a complete lack of understanding on why Greenways have been so successful. The main reason being attracting people who don't normally cycle on the roads.

Good railways are needed and there is a demand however I don't understand this obsession with old railways built in the 1800s. If you look other countries and the modern high speed lines, they built new railway lines that matched the population needs and technology of the modern day. The Bullet train in Japan being a classic example.

Part of the issue is that while roads will always find the budget to be built and there’s always land to build them on as far as Official Ireland are concerned, when it comes to railways there’s always some bright spark who will ask about “profitability” and “oh it has to be such and such a density before we can build them” the same questions are never ever asked about roads. I’m thinking especially about the M9 motorway down to Waterford and indeed the Tuam bypass which if another country were considering them, they’d never be built as these roads aren’t exactly chockablock at the best of times. Yet no one dares question the “profitability” or density of the local populations for roads.

The only way railways get opened in Ireland is when old lines are reopened. No one in the department of Transport and their bus loving chums in the NTA will sanction the purchase of new land for railways because guess what, there are bright sparks in the NTA who will ask about the “profitability” and the “density” before sanctioning any kind of spend on the railway. And then you have the keyboard warriors who despise the railway organising letter writing campaigns to their local councils and getting their “economist” pals whose think tank gets grants from the Ford Foundation etc. to write articles demanding more roads and less railways to ensure the car manufacturers stay in business rather than stopping and thinking, what does the environment and the economy really need?

02-01-2020 10:21am

Sligo eye wrote: »

Part of the issue is that while roads will always find the budget to be built and there’s always land to build them on as far as Official Ireland are concerned, when it comes to railways there’s always some bright spark who will ask about “profitability” and “oh it has to be such and such a density before we can build them” the same questions are never ever asked about roads. I’m thinking especially about the M9 motorway down to Waterford and indeed the Tuam bypass which if another country were considering them, they’d never be built as these roads aren’t exactly chockablock at the best of times. Yet no one dares question the “profitability” or density of the local populations for roads.

The only way railways get opened in Ireland is when old lines are reopened. No one in the department of Transport and their bus loving chums in the NTA will sanction the purchase of new land for railways because guess what, there are bright sparks in the NTA who will ask about the “profitability” and the “density” before sanctioning any kind of spend on the railway. And then you have the keyboard warriors who despise the railway organising letter writing campaigns to their local councils and getting their “economist” pals whose think tank gets grants from the Ford Foundation etc. to write articles demanding more roads and less railways to ensure the car manufacturers stay in business rather than stopping and thinking, what does the environment and the economy really need?

That's an awful lot of tinfoil hats for a single post

Re: Tuam bypass, prior to it being built, 30-45 minute tailbacks were the norm for trying to get through Tuam.

PeadarCo · 02-01-2020 10:43am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's an awful lot of tinfoil hats for a single post

Re: Tuam bypass, prior to it being built, 30-45 minute tailbacks were the norm for trying to get through Tuam.

The post also ignores all the protests around the M3 with one of the alternatives being proposed being just to widen the existing road and not build the M3. And that's just one example.

It also really doesn't answer the question of why reopen closed lines built for technology that's now in museums. Most modern high speed lines around the world are purpose built. Many of these lines can compete with airplanes on short routes. Rails biggest advantage is that it can move large amounts of people between and in high density areas very quickly. The rail alignments built in the 1800s were for trains that were slower than modern cars/buses. Modern trains(never mind high speed trains) are a orders of magnatude quicker than was available/envisaged when the lines were built. Obviously in a lot of cases the relevant rail alignments will not match modern day requirements for train travel to be competitive with other modes of transport.

Sligo eye · 02-01-2020 11:04am

PeadarCo wrote: »

The post also ignores all the protests around the M3 with one of the alternatives being proposed being just to widen the existing road and not build the M3. And that's just one example.

It also really doesn't answer the question of why reopen closed lines built for technology that's now in museums. Most modern high speed lines around the world are purpose built. Many of these lines can compete with airplanes on short routes. Rails biggest advantage is that it can move large amounts of people between and in high density areas very quickly. The rail alignments built in the 1800s were for trains that were slower than modern cars/buses. Modern trains(never mind high speed trains) are a orders of magnatude quicker than was available/envisaged when the lines were built. Obviously in a lot of cases the relevant rail alignments will not match modern day requirements for train travel to be competitive with other modes of transport.

Oh sure, if Official Ireland were to give rail the same priority as cars then yes of course we should rebuild the lines, I completely agree with that. The reality is that they apply far more stringent criteria to the construction of railways than to roads. Until we as a nation wake up to the environmental crisis we are in we will continue to literally drive towards the destruction of our environment.

serfboard · 02-01-2020 7:56pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Until we as a nation wake up to the environmental crisis we are in we will continue to literally drive towards the destruction of our environment.

While no-one could disagree with that, until we as a nation stop scattering one-off houses for city workers all over the countryside, we won't wake up to anything.

Greaney · 06-01-2020 1:08pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Lot of exaggeration there if you're saying that a train line is the only solution to all of the above issues. .

No I'm not saying that the train line is the only solution, I'm refuting the claim that building nothing has no cost. I believe neglecting public transport has a huge cost. There's plenty of info out there to support this claim

http://www.politico.com/sponsor-content/2018/06/when-public-transit
https://www.nationalexpresstransit.com/blog/9-benefits-of-public-transportation/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/07/north-england-unreliable-public-transport-stops-poor-families-finding-work
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bad-public-transportation-transit-justice_n_5c0940d6e4b0bf813ef4f219?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANoTnNlnTGReJJFrGnVW3U3dXvg10RNdzB7KKtYLxy8JDPJFlMe7Hb7AACj486FLJDNfpu2b8RFj4p3hap-yK1RTXIDpCwwaS_Ext3WccLX32TxmxT70LweHVYOhTLqRTi_A4JXpOkM7uxQlnQumxRtdOpc0qQyLIBm6oM8k6sKa
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/top-10-benefits-public-transportation/1063096/

As for our dreadful habit of one off housing.... I totally agree. Furthermore I'm happy to learn that some places are catching up in building around public transport hubs, especially on the WRC where Craughwells ghost estates are full and Ardrahan has started to build for commuters

On a positive note, I spotted this on the Greenway thread re; infrastructure, regarding the Dublin to Galway Velo, which is pre-approve funded, and communities along that route would do well to strategize developing 'loops' from it for tourism and cycling infrastructure....

''...Separately, tenders have been sought for a contractor to work on the Greenway project from the west side of Athlone as far as Galway, and it's expected that a contractor will be appointed for this stretch of the project at some stage in the coming months. ''

Isambard · 06-01-2020 1:33pm

Greaney wrote: »

No I'm not saying that the train line is the only solution, I'm refuting the claim that building nothing has no cost. I believe neglecting public transport has a huge cost. There's plenty of info out there to support this claim

http://www.politico.com/sponsor-content/2018/06/when-public-transit
https://www.nationalexpresstransit.com/blog/9-benefits-of-public-transportation/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/07/north-england-unreliable-public-transport-stops-poor-families-finding-work
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bad-public-transportation-transit-justice_n_5c0940d6e4b0bf813ef4f219?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANoTnNlnTGReJJFrGnVW3U3dXvg10RNdzB7KKtYLxy8JDPJFlMe7Hb7AACj486FLJDNfpu2b8RFj4p3hap-yK1RTXIDpCwwaS_Ext3WccLX32TxmxT70LweHVYOhTLqRTi_A4JXpOkM7uxQlnQumxRtdOpc0qQyLIBm6oM8k6sKa
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/top-10-benefits-public-transportation/1063096/

As for our dreadful habit of one off housing.... I totally agree. Furthermore I'm happy to learn that some places are catching up in building around public transport hubs, especially on the WRC where Craughwells ghost estates are full and Ardrahan has started to build for commuters

On a positive note, I spotted this on the Greenway thread re; infrastructure, regarding the Dublin to Galway Velo, which is pre-approve funded, and communities along that route would do well to strategize developing 'loops' from it for tourism and cycling infrastructure....

''...Separately, tenders have been sought for a contractor to work on the Greenway project from the west side of Athlone as far as Galway, and it's expected that a contractor will be appointed for this stretch of the project at some stage in the coming months. ''

about time the underused canal infrastructure was brought to the fore.

Quackster · 06-01-2020 1:51pm

Greaney wrote: »

No I'm not saying that the train line is the only solution, I'm refuting the claim that building nothing has no cost. I believe neglecting public transport has a huge cost. There's plenty of info out there to support this claim.

I don't think anyone here would argue against vastly increasing the funding of public transport. What is a fundamental basis of effective public transport though is the provision of the most appropriate form of public transport for the specific conditions and it should be abundantly obvious that rail is not always the most appropriate form of public transport.

Greaney · 06-01-2020 2:00pm

Quackster wrote: »

I don't think anyone here would argue against vastly increasing the funding of public transport. What is a fundamental basis of effective public transport though is the provision of the most appropriate form of public transport for the specific conditions and it should be abundantly obvious that rail is not always the most appropriate form of public transport.

Yes, and that's why I simply don't see bicycles as the most appropriate form of transport on the Western Rail Corridor.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Comments