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This is a thread about the 2020 Six Nations, formerly the Five Nations

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    #1322
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Oh i think its a very plausible theory when you consider his performances post 2018 6N and take in his injury profile since injury v Wales in 2017.
    He has lost power in that pass off his right side and his breaks are almost non-existent.
    I would think the question is why do we think Murray is suddenly going to improve? We've been waiting for that for over two seasons.

    This is the world class Murray of old.
    SA 1st test 2016 - His play here from 74mins is pretty amazing stuff.
    https://youtu.be/dJa5y77FaoQ?t=6462

    I think their best days are well behind the lads mentioned above. Whereas almost all of England's players are coming into their prime

    Murray's career was pretty much on an upward trajectory from 2011 to 2018. I think this is his first sustained period of poor-to-decent form.

    His downturn in form has coincided with 1) injuries issues and 2) the box-kick (one of his main strengths) becoming less effective for us as teams employ blockers / trail runners. For 1) at least, hopefully this spell will have helped him. It seems to me like he doesn't snipe anywhere near as much as he used to as well.

    Gerry Thornley and Shane Horgan had a right back-and-forth on Second Captains about whether he can return to the player he was, worth a listen if anyone can dig it out.

    (Interestingly, from the clip above, he had as many box-kicks as passes in (4 of each) in the remainder of that game. Down to the circumstances of trying to close out the game, but it was so effective, and Murray was so accurate at it for so long).


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    #1323
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    ^
    Yes his game management was brilliant & having played most of the match with 14 men. His defense was outstanding. & Still his strongest part of the game. I dont think he's an 80min man anymore.

    Our half-back pairings are the most immediate area of concern to me. Sexton was on a big downward curve and poor Joey....He was the one hope of mine going into the WC. I thought he could have sparked something in that side for one last hurrah.

    I cant bear listening to GT and Horgan. Horgan pro Murray?


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    #1324
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Never heard so much bull in my life than "he's lost his power off his right side pass".

    https://youtu.be/EQU_FP9q3KY

    There's the Wales game in full. 23:50 video time is the clip I immediately thought of when that claim was made - say what you want about his speed or his sniping prowess but his passing has not deteriorated


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    #1325
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Never heard so much bull in my life than "he's lost his power off his right side pass".

    https://youtu.be/EQU_FP9q3KY

    There's the Wales game in full. 23:50 video time is the clip I immediately thought of when that claim was made - say what you want about his speed or his sniping prowess but his passing has not deteriorated

    The first pass he makes after 23:50 on the youtube clock is to his left?


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    #1326
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The first pass he makes after 23:50 on the youtube clock is to his left?

    Passes OFF the right hand are generally TO the left. Important distinction.


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    #1327
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Passes OFF the right hand are generally TO the left. Important distinction.

    Sure but passing to his right is where the inconsistency has arisen?


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    #1328
    Dunney848
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Dunney848


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    We really need to turn England over. They've comprehensively beaten us the last two six nations and they embarrassed us in the RWC warm ups.

    If we keep giving them scalps they'll turn into a bogey team despite us largely having the upper hand on them since 2004.

    If we get the back 5 right and our kicking game is spotless then we can beat them. I don't think Lowe will be eligible for this tournament - instant boost to our chances if he's available.

    England are a tough one to crack. If we play a slow game winding down the clock like in Twickenham this year we will lose. If we try and contain them we will crack and lose. If we play our old tactics of box kicking and one off runners we will lose.

    The key will be to vary the points of attack and if we go wide take it up the 15 channel at pace and knock the defender backwards. Trying to go around them on the outside shoulder out wide doesn’t march them backwards.

    We also have to completely sh1t house them off the ball and take no cheating. If we allow them to drag players into rucks and hold them on the ground we lose. If we allow them to grab jerseys off the ball we lose. A lot of it will be gamesmanship in the winning or losing to them.


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    #1329
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Sure but passing to his right is where the inconsistency has arisen?

    Indeed. And even when he broke through in 2011 his passing to the right wasn’t up to scratch. By the 2013-14 season I feel he was nearly as comfortable off both sides and also had that power pass.
    Some people might say “everything is awesome” but his pass is far from it once was. He does fire the odd one out (v Scot at WC) but as you said there are also inconsistent passes. I firmly believe he is been inhibited by a previous injury.


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    #1330
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    ^
    Yes his game management was brilliant & having played most of the match with 14 men. His defense was outstanding. & Still his strongest part of the game. I dont think he's an 80min man anymore.

    Our half-back pairings are the most immediate area of concern to me. Sexton was on a big downward curve and poor Joey....He was the one hope of mine going into the WC. I thought he could have sparked something in that side for one last hurrah.

    I cant bear listening to GT and Horgan. Horgan pro Murray?

    From what I remember, GT was far more positive than Horgan about Murray getting back close to level we had seen from him before.

    I think Horgan disagreed with Gerry on it initially and then Thornley was like a dog with a bone, and kept bring it back up to the point it got pretty awkward. (and funny). Gonna try find it and give it another listen. (I seem to be in a minority that actually likes Thornley).


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    #1331
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,183 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Thornley has never been anything but positive about a long established Irish international. He's a complete sycophant when it comes to all things Ireland.


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    #1332
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    aloooof wrote: »
    From what I remember, GT was far more positive than Horgan about Murray getting back close to level we had seen from him before.

    I think Horgan disagreed with Gerry on it initially and then Thornley was like a dog with a bone, and kept bring it back up to the point it got pretty awkward. (and funny). Gonna try find it and give it another listen. (I seem to be in a minority that actually likes Thornley).

    I like GT. Just in small doses and preferably in print! Yea he can insufferable when he keeps banging on about something.
    I do believe he was firmly on the Connacht side of the Gatland/O'Sullivan fence. He wasnt a fan of that 2001 IRFU sub-committee (renew/got rid of Gatland). Eddie Coleman, Wiggelsworth, Philip Browne etc were all pro EO'S.
    GT nose was put out of joint by this after he succeeded Van Esbeck in '99. He no longer had the same access to the coach with EO'S.
    edit
    He's not always objective:pac:


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    #1333
    PMC83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭PMC83


    Buer wrote: »
    Thornley has never been anything but positive about a long established Irish international. He's a complete sycophant when it comes to all things Ireland.


    He didn't come off too well on the above mentioned podcast. I seem to remember Horgan asking Gerry was being a bit prickly (which he was) or something around those lines.

    That said it was definitely one of the more entertaining eps!


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    #1334
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,902 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    this new Autumn tournament will be akin to the world cup warm up games where its a chance to give fringe lads a chance

    Lowe deff will get games


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    #1335
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    PMC83 wrote: »
    He didn't come off too well on the above mentioned podcast. I seem to remember Horgan asking Gerry was being a bit prickly (which he was) or something around those lines.

    That said it was definitely one of the more entertaining eps!

    It was real head in the sand stuff by GT. Horgan said we’d seen the best of Murray and that he was unlikely to scale the heights he did from 2013-2018 again. I think that’s fair enough, doesn’t mean he won’t be an important player going forward but it’s a bit unfair to expect a 31 year old whose had a few injuries to return to that form where he was seen as one of the best 2 nines in the world as the game is continuously evolving. He could do, but to use that as a measuring stick to judge him at this stage of his career is unfair.

    As an aside, for some reason I enjoy hearing Gerry continuing to refer to a 48 year old Keith Wood as Fester. A nickname probably coined around 97 by team mates still used almost 25 years later by a journalist :D I imagine in 20 years he’ll be on OTB referring to James Ryan as ‘Cheese’ :D


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    #1336
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,902 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    So back in action this weekend,we need the BP win over Italy. If we get it we move up to the top of the table

    R5 the on the 31st Oct Wales vs Scotland, Italy vs England and France vs Ireland

    France, England, ourselves and Scotland have a chance to win the title. Scotland would need a miracle. England will more likely get BP win over Italy and then would be waiting on the result in the France vs Ireland match


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    #1337
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    So back in action this weekend,we need the BP win over Italy. If we get it we move up to the top of the table

    R5 the on the 31st Oct Wales vs Scotland, Italy vs England and France vs Ireland

    France, England, ourselves and Scotland have a chance to win the title. Scotland would need a miracle. England will more likely get BP win over Italy and then would be waiting on the result in the France vs Ireland match

    Very good summary. All to play for with a real feast on Super Saturday. Something riding on all 3 games. Wonder will fact of no crowds nullify home advantage to any degree.


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    #1338
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,902 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    Very good summary. All to play for with a real feast on Super Saturday. Something riding on all 3 games. Wonder will fact of no crowds nullify home advantage to any degree.

    Flashbacks of final day in 2015 but this time no pubs

    Get over this weekend and get that BP win. A normal win not be ideal

    Fairly odd championship


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    #1339
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    Love the look of those two teams

    Could be a great game


    https://twitter.com/FranceRugby/status/1319203928488161286



    https://twitter.com/WelshRugbyUnion/status/1319232345489145858


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    #1340
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,902 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    yerrahbah wrote: »
    Love the look of those two teams

    Could be a great game


    https://twitter.com/FranceRugby/status/1319203928488161286



    https://twitter.com/WelshRugbyUnion/status/1319232345489145858

    That's only a friendly isn't it ?


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    #1341
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah I'm confused. I think its a friendly.


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    #1342
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    My bad :o


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    #1343
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Still two full strength teams


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    #1344
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,079 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yep it's a meaningless game


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    #1345
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


      sydthebeat wrote: »
      Yep it's a meaningless game

      Does this game carry any world ranking points?


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      #1346
      sydthebeat
      Subscribers Posts: 41,079 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


      Digifriendly wrote: »

        Does this game carry any world ranking points?

        Its a capped game so probably yes.

        However ranking points have no impact into anything this season.

        2023 tiers are based on rankings from Jan 2020


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        #1347
        The Lost Sheep
        Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


        Digifriendly wrote: »

          Does this game carry any world ranking points?
          Yes. Its capped senior international so yeah


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          #1348
          Digifriendly
          Registered Users Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


          Tend to think that unlike soccer no rugby international is a meaningless game. I have seen plenty of friendly soccer internationals on TV that are literally meaningless and a waste of time for they lack a competitive edge. The same thing cannot be said of rugby internationals even if not part of a tournament.


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          #1349
          awec
          Administrators Posts: 53,439 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


          Digifriendly wrote: »
          Tend to think that unlike soccer no rugby international is a meaningless game. I have seen plenty of friendly soccer internationals on TV that are literally meaningless and a waste of time for they lack a competitive edge. The same thing cannot be said of rugby internationals even if not part of a tournament.

          Rugby has lots of meaningless internationals, in the sense that there's nothing really to play for except pride. The November internationals are meaningless.

          It's just that in soccer the club game is more prestigious than international games, so outside of major tournaments players will regularly drop out. UEFA/FIFA try really hard to make international football interesting by changing formats, introducing the nations league etc but there's not a whole pile of interest.

          Club game is also a higher standard. Belgium and France hold the euros / world cup, but the best club teams in the world would beat them. Wouldn't happen in rugby.

          You also need to account for the fact that international rugby is a closed shop, and the best teams set it up so they just play each other all the time. Easier to maintain interest. Like when we play the tier 2 team in the Autumn you see the drop off in attendance, and players being rested etc. Same thing as happens in soccer, it's just rugby only really does it once a year.


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          #1350
          sydthebeat
          Subscribers Posts: 41,079 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


          france played wales in feb... could quite possibly end up play them again in december and will be playing them again this coming Feb.
          at least scotland v georgia is not a test game that happens very often.

          this game on saturday is meaningless from any tangible point of view.

          of course, it will be used for learnings from both camps, but thats about it.

          I could just imagine how pee'ed off the french clubs would be should one of their stars pick up a long term injury during this game.


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          #1351
          Buer
          Registered Users Posts: 24,183 ✭✭✭✭Buer


          Gotta laugh. If someone from the soccer/GAA forum came in here and called this match meaningless or a friendly, they'd have 10 replies berating them and reminding them there's no such thing in rugby and they should be referred to as test matches!


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