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Predicted Grades Appeals

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    #452
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Interesting...
    A certain broadcasting doctor had a daughter sitting LC 2020.
    The same one screaming for predicted grades and the leaving cert to be cancelled.
    She just said her daughter got downgraded in all her subjects and only offered her 7th choice


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    #453
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    “You’re going to reeeeap ... just what you sow.”


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    #454
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Treppen wrote: »
    Which bell curve? There's loads of em.

    a combination of any and all of them that were applied


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    #455
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Treppen wrote: »
    Interesting...
    A certain broadcasting doctor had a daughter sitting LC 2020.
    The same one screaming for predicted grades and the leaving cert to be cancelled.
    She just said her daughter got downgraded in all her subjects and only offered her 7th choice

    I actually had wondered what results the daughter had received.

    Guess we'll be hearing alot more again from the good doctor on this.


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    #456
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    a combination of any and all of them that were applied

    I think a combination of the wrong ones and none were also applied.


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    #457
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Just did a root around the web regarding Polymetrika, the company at the centre of this debacle.

    Looks like a one man company run by a Fernando Cartwright.

    Cartwright has links to an Irish education consultant called Vincent Greaney.
    At a press conference with the minister yesterday, it was confirmed that the “original value” of the contract with the Canadian company was €75,000.

    An official from the Department of Education said that “the expenditure to date” is €160,000.

    Starting to look shady as fook.


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    #458
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Just did a root around the web regarding Polymetrika, the company at the centre of this debacle.

    Looks like a one man company run by a Fernando Cartwright.

    Cartwright has links to an Irish education consultant called Vincent Greaney.



    Starting to look shady as fook.

    I thought Polymetrika were involved in PISA in some way.

    By golly the Minister can't stop herself from mentioning the company's name repeatedly.


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    #459
    Pursefan
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Pursefan


    My daughter also brought down a percent or two across all subjects, but down a grade in one. I thinks its unacceptable that JC results were used at all. Some many kids do so much better in LC. And these kids never thought their JC results would determine their LC. Shocking.


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    #460
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Pursefan wrote: »
    My daughter also brought down a percent or two across all subjects, but down a grade in one. I thinks its unacceptable that JC results were used at all. Some many kids do so much better in LC. And these kids never thought their JC results would determine their LC. Shocking.
    Maybe their parents should have encouraged them to take their state exams seriously. JC results were the only reliable results they had.


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    #461
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Maybe their parents should have encouraged them to take their state exams seriously. JC results were the only reliable results they had.

    Ah that isn't fair.

    Who takes the junior cert seriously?

    I'm primary but any secondary teachers I know consider the JC to just serve as a wake up call for some and a waste of time for others.

    No one could have known that it would have any level of importance a number of years on.


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    #462
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Maybe their parents should have encouraged them to take their state exams seriously. JC results were the only reliable results they had.


    Yes they should take it seriously, but they can't be told that in hindsight.


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    #463
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ah that isn't fair.

    Who takes the junior cert seriously?

    I'm primary but any secondary teachers I know consider the JC to just serve as a wake up call for some and a waste of time for others.

    No one could have known that it would have any level of importance a number of years on.

    I take it seriously. Its a state exam and I instill into my pupils that it is important. Clearly not as important as the LC but still a state exam none the less.


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    #464
    Pursefan
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Pursefan


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Maybe their parents should have encouraged them to take their state exams seriously. JC results were the only reliable results they had.[/quote
    We and her did take it seriously. We are both secondary teachers and she worked very hard, despite the challenges of dyslexia and did very well. We are proud of her. My point is to use these grades as a marker or indicator of her LC results was quite unfair. I use this forum as a place for support and advice. Your comment was of no use to anyone here and also insensitive.


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    #465
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    Pursefan wrote: »
    RealJohn wrote: »
    Maybe their parents should have encouraged them to take their state exams seriously. JC results were the only reliable results they had.[/quote
    We and her did take it seriously. We are both secondary teachers and she worked very hard, despite the challenges of dyslexia and did very well. We are proud of her. My point is to use these grades as a marker or indicator of her LC results was quite unfair. I use this forum as a place for support and advice. Your comment was of no use to anyone here and also insensitive.

    They didn’t use her personal JC results in isolation as a marker or indicator of anything. They looked at the JC results of everybody in her various different 6th year classes and took group averages, looked at how groups with similar averages progressed to LC nationally in previous years, and applied the same progression rate to her groups.

    On the "coding errors", very, very suspiciously coincidental that these were supposedly discovered by the contractor just after the first couple of High Court cases got going. I think it was mentioned that the Institute retained an independent data analytics specialist to look for such errors to build their cases on. Wondering if they maybe shared some of what they found and thought lets just see how it plays out in the media....


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    #466
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    Treppen wrote: »
    Interesting...
    A certain broadcasting doctor had a daughter sitting LC 2020.
    The same one screaming for predicted grades and the leaving cert to be cancelled.
    She just said her daughter got downgraded in all her subjects and only offered her 7th choice

    Obviously don’t know about this students school but I do know that the grades I saw for the students in my school were no way comparable to the actual ability of the students, no doubt that a lot of teachers were being overly generous so I was surprised more didn’t get downgraded. Ironic tho that one of the major people pushing for no actual LC didn’t benefit by the looks of things


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    #467
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ah that isn't fair.

    Who takes the junior cert seriously?
    The state? Most teachers?
    I certainly do. So does the SEC. The fact that you hear “sure it’s only the junior cert” far too often is not a reflection of the importance of the exam, so much as it is a reflection of people’s poor attitudes towards exams. They’ll be the same people who only view the leaving cert as a college entrance exam and think it has no other value. They’re wrong about that too.


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    #468
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Pursefan wrote: »
    We and her did take it seriously. We are both secondary teachers and she worked very hard, despite the challenges of dyslexia and did very well. We are proud of her. My point is to use these grades as a marker or indicator of her LC results was quite unfair. I use this forum as a place for support and advice. Your comment was of no use to anyone here and also insensitive.
    I disagree that it is as of no use. I pointed out that it was the only reliable exams results this cohort of students actually have. As a secondary teacher, you’ll be well aware that the invented grades have virtually no rigour to them, as every teacher marks their own students to varying standards, including many to varying standards inside a single class group, depending on the students’ individual needs, abilities, and personalities. This is part of teaching. It is not part of examining, nor should it be, but as teachers, it was impossible for us to remove it from our thinking entirely this year, no matter how hard we try.

    The invented grades are worthless, and an insult to your daughter and everyone else in the leaving cert class of 2020, but including the junior cert results in the model was one of the few things they did right. You’re entitled to your opinions, of course, but if you don’t think including the only reliable, impartial results they had was better for the process, you’re going to need better justification than you’ve given.

    As for being insensitive, if I was talking to your daughter, I might have explained it in a softer way, but you’re an adult, so the truth shouldn’t hurt your feelings, especially since you claim it doesn’t apply to you anyway.


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    #469
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes they should take it seriously, but they can't be told that in hindsight.
    They weren’t. They were always told by the SEC, and by most of their teachers, that their junior cert was important and worthwhile.


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    #470
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    They weren’t. They were always told by the SEC, and by most of their teachers, that their junior cert was important and worthwhile.

    That may be so, but they weren't to know that those grades would be used to determine their Leaving Cert two years later. Some students don't put the work in for Junior Cert, because they don't take it seriously but also some students are just immature. They get results below what they are capable of, they know it, and it gives them a kick in the arse and the work for the Leaving Cert. It's a bit of a harsh penalty to pull down grades based on Junior Cert results.


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    #471
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I disagree that it is as of no use. I pointed out that it was the only reliable exams results this cohort of students actually have. As a secondary teacher, you’ll be well aware that the invented grades have virtually no rigour to them, as every teacher marks their own students to varying standards, including many to varying standards inside a single class group, depending on the students’ individual needs, abilities, and personalities. This is part of teaching. It is not part of examining, nor should it be, but as teachers, it was impossible for us to remove it from our thinking entirely this year, no matter how hard we try.

    The invented grades are worthless, and an insult to your daughter and everyone else in the leaving cert class of 2020, but including the junior cert results in the model was one of the few things they did right. You’re entitled to your opinions, of course, but if you don’t think including the only reliable, impartial results they had was better for the process, you’re going to need better justification than you’ve given.

    As for being insensitive, if I was talking to your daughter, I might have explained it in a softer way, but you’re an adult, so the truth shouldn’t hurt your feelings, especially since you claim it doesn’t apply to you anyway.

    jeez that's a bit harsh


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    #472
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ah that isn't fair.

    Who takes the junior cert seriously?

    I'm primary but any secondary teachers I know consider the JC to just serve as a wake up call for some and a waste of time for others.

    No one could have known that it would have any level of importance a number of years on.

    Omg shows u the standard of teaching with a reply like that . Is the junior cert not the basis wether u student will do higher or lower grade in subjects for the leaving cert !


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    #473
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Omg shows u the standard of teaching with a reply like that . Is the junior cert not the basis wether u student will do higher or lower grade in subjects for the leaving cert !

    No, that's an ongoing process.
    Students may choose any level they like at any time (teachers should only strongly advise these days).
    We've had some students trying honours after junior cert o level too, rare enough but it happens.
    Typically students can move at many stages from fifth year on.
    Junior cert is only one moment in time, isn't it not?


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    #474
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Omg shows u the standard of teaching with a reply like that . Is the junior cert not the basis wether u student will do higher or lower grade in subjects for the leaving cert !

    The aul JC has nothing to do with the choice of level in the LC cycle. Yes it can be used as an indicator but it shouldn't ever be used as a decider. Many many students who are well able academically but lack the motivation or maturity in their earlier years at secondary can blossom or in a lot of cases "cop on" kicks in when the reality of the leaving cert becomes apparent.

    Certainly the class of 2020 wouldn't have entered their JC exams at the time with any expectations how they could potentially impact on a totally separate exam process 2/3 years down the line.


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    #475
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    That's not true though. It's a significant factor in the level students choose, both because they see it as an indicator of their ability, and because if they've done ordinary level (or foundation level) for junior cert/cycle, they're usually weaker in the subject and know they should probably opt for ordinary level or steer clear of it altogther, if that's an option.

    Claiming that students often aren't mature enough and do much better for leaving cert is also a red herring. The standard is much lower, so students with ability but lacking in motivation or focus still generally do alright. You rarely see a student who scrapes a pass at junior cert/cycle go on to get an A1/H1 at leaving cert in those same subjects. They build a foundation for their more advanced knowledge in 1st/2nd/3rd year, and if they haven't built that foundation, they're going to lose time building it in 5th/6th year when their classmates are learning the advanced stuff. Poor junior cert/cycle results are not irrellevant. Anyone who understands the process knows that, and while this discussion is about exam results, the students who have built a proper foundation from the start probably understand the subject better overall - the students who do badly at junior cert/cycle but somehow do well in the leaving cert might well have learned how to work the exam, more than they have absorbed a depth of subject knowledge, so why should they be rewarded for that?

    The class of 2020 didn't expect that their junior cert results would potentially impact on their leaving cert, but so what? They knew their knowledge and skills would (in so far as they actually think that far ahead at that age), and they showed what knowledge and skills they had when they sat their junior cert exams.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: including their most reliable exam results in the invented grades process was absolutely the most sensible part of the whole process (which is very much damning it with faint praise, but no matter).


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    #476
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    RealJohn wrote: »
    That's not true though. It's a significant factor in the level students choose, both because they see it as an indicator of their ability, and because if they've done ordinary level (or foundation level) for junior cert/cycle, they're usually weaker in the subject and know they should probably opt for ordinary level or steer clear of it altogther, if that's an option.

    Claiming that students often aren't mature enough and do much better for leaving cert is also a red herring. The standard is much lower, so students with ability but lacking in motivation or focus still generally do alright. You rarely see a student who scrapes a pass at junior cert/cycle go on to get an A1/H1 at leaving cert in those same subjects. They build a foundation for their more advanced knowledge in 1st/2nd/3rd year, and if they haven't built that foundation, they're going to lose time building it in 5th/6th year when their classmates are learning the advanced stuff. Poor junior cert/cycle results are not irrellevant. Anyone who understands the process knows that, and while this discussion is about exam results, the students who have built a proper foundation from the start probably understand the subject better overall - the students who do badly at junior cert/cycle but somehow do well in the leaving cert might well have learned how to work the exam, more than they have absorbed a depth of subject knowledge, so why should they be rewarded for that?

    The class of 2020 didn't expect that their junior cert results would potentially impact on their leaving cert, but so what? They knew their knowledge and skills would (in so far as they actually think that far ahead at that age), and they showed what knowledge and skills they had when they sat their junior cert exams.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: including their most reliable exam results in the invented grades process was absolutely the most sensible part of the whole process (which is very much damning it with faint praise, but no matter).

    The idea that a full three years of education and the terminal exam that follows can simply be discarded and that the 'wake up call' of poor results will be enough to spur students into action is laughable.

    There is a very clear correlation between those students who perform well at JC and those who perform well at LC. It is not the case that students improve massively between one and the other at all.

    If it was all as straightforward as some people here are making out we could do the leaving cert at the end of second year and send them off to work or college!

    Our school has placed a massive emphasis on attainment at Junior Cycle which has improved attainment at Leaving Cert level without any specific intervention.

    Good habits, methods of work, attitudes to school & study and a sense of accomplishment from work well done make a higher performing JC student. A higher performing JC student makes a higher performing LC student.


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    #477
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    The idea that a full three years of education and the terminal exam that follows can simply be discarded and that the 'wake up call' of poor results will be enough to spur students into action is laughable.

    There is a very clear correlation between those students who perform well at JC and those who perform well at LC. It is not the case that students improve massively between one and the other at all.

    If it was all as straightforward as some people here are making out we could do the leaving cert at the end of second year and send them off to work or college!

    Our school has placed a massive emphasis on attainment at Junior Cycle which has improved attainment at Leaving Cert level without any specific intervention.

    Good habits, methods of work, attitudes to school & study and a sense of accomplishment from work well done make a higher performing JC student. A higher performing JC student makes a higher performing LC student.

    Yes well said piece .

    listening to the rubbish of I didn’t perform in Jc but I did all honours for LC what rubbish people come out with .

    something like sf would say !


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    #478
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Yes well said piece .

    listening to the rubbish of I didn’t perform in Jc but I did all honours for LC what rubbish people come out with .

    something like sf would say !

    So you maintain that whatever grade students get in the JC can't be improved upon!!!


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    #479
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Yes well said piece .

    listening to the rubbish of I didn’t perform in Jc but I did all honours for LC what rubbish people come out with .

    something like sf would say !

    The last couple of posts on this have been interesting. Suggesting that a student barely scraping a pass in JC would suddenly get all H1s in LC. And here ‘all honours in LC’

    You’d swear it was suggested that someone doing ordinary level maths and got a D was suddenly gonna pull a H1 out at higher level. That’s never going to happen. But what can and does happen is that a good student underperforms in JC, not to the point of failure but gets a C perhaps, sometimes a B and does buckle down and get the high grade in LC.

    Also taking a subject like science which splits into multiple subjects at LC. A student might not have amazing mathematical ability and this pulls down the overall result because physics isn’t their thing, but they excel in biology and ag science.

    Also the bands are wider for JC. A C-grade goes from 55-69. There is a difference between students at the extreme ends of the grade band. A student may put a bit of extra effort in for LC and get a B. It wouldn’t be that unusual.


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    #480
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Is it not the case also that many students sail through the JC with top honours but because the LC is a big jump up, do not match their amazing JC results in LC. Maybe that's just the students I know, many of them would have got ten As in JC and nowhere near in LC. Is that unusual ?


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    #481
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Is it not the case also that many students sail through the JC with top honours but because the LC is a big jump up, do not match their amazing JC results in LC. Maybe that's just the students I know, many of them would have got ten As in JC and nowhere near in LC. Is that unusual ?

    I think it is the case that it happens, myself and my mates breezed through the JC and thought we'd get it just as handy in the LC so results weren't overly spectacular. Although there's a few other factors too, the school wasnt that academic with half going to work the land, another going for the dole/labouring and the odd few gifted 6A1s type. The school I teach in now is all about points, so there's a push on from other peers, teachers, parents, form tutors, Yearhead and management. Not sure if that's a good thing either. But anyway, getting back to the point, there is always room for improvement, and subjects change between JC and LC.

    So as a predictor for LC I'd say there is a kind of a predictor there, but don't think it fair to be used.
    Mocks would have been closer to the truth, but that's messy too.

    Should have Just let the teachers grades stand and throw them into a random selection for oversubscribed courses. Then allow the rejected applicants have that course for next year and build in a bit of capacity for 2021 LC group. Also award an extra 5% to LC 2021 and do same again with lottery + guaranteed place deferred till 2022. Flatten the curve etc.


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