Predicted Grades Appeals

JPF82

With all the goings on in the UK system with the predicted grades, the below piece from the journal.ie came to my attention. https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-results-9-5175809-Aug2020/

In particular, this bit

The Department of Education confirmed to TheJournal.ie that students would be able to view their Calculated Grade broken down into the teacher-assessed grade and ranking.

“The results of the Calculated Grades will issue to students via the Calculated Grades Student Portal and simultaneously to schools on Monday, 7 September 2020,” it said.

“On Monday 14 September the student portal will open for appeal applications and at that time all students will be able to see a record of their individual estimated percentage mark and ranking assigned to them by their school.


I thought the students would only be able to see a ranking, and not the grade I assigned them. It's not that I wouldn't stand over my grades.

While looking at this, I believe RTÉ have a news article saying students only see the ranking. It could just be the journal being wrong.

km79

Just on the LC
September 7th is creeping closer ......what’s happening !
Online only ? Come in to schools while current students are there ?

RealJohn

JPF82 wrote: »

I thought the students would only be able to see a ranking, and not the grade I assigned them. It's not that I wouldn't stand over my grades.

I’d rather they saw the mark I assigned them than their rank in the class. The person I assigned last place to is definitely likely to say I had something personal against them.

Treppen

RealJohn wrote: »

I’d rather they saw the mark I assigned them than their rank in the class. The person I assigned last place to is definitely likely to say I had something personal against them.

Good point, I can see zero benefit to anyone with revealing a ranking and teachers predicted grade, just give them the final grade and let the department take the flack. This is just a recipe for disaster and really bad feelings towards teachers, especially in a small close knit community.

Dunno about ye but I'm enjoyed wearing a face mask at the local shopping centre passing by students who don't recognise me.

am_zarathustra

Does anyone know who actually did the analysis? Since they announced I've been keeping an eye out but haven't seen anything. I can't see anyone in the Department being capable of this kind of statistical analysis or writing an algorithm so I assume an outside agency was contracted? The SEC might have been able to just about do it but they rightly washed their hands of the process

mirrorwall14

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Does anyone know who actually did the analysis? Since they announced I've been keeping an eye out but haven't seen anything. I can't see anyone in the Department being capable of this kind of statistical analysis or writing an algorithm so I assume an outside agency was contracted? The SEC might have been able to just about do it but they rightly washed their hands of the process

I believe that at least four have been transferred in from the sec

am_zarathustra

Four people? I can't imagine that being enough. I assume it's an automated algorithm designed to pick anomalies? The SEC would hardly have a couple of programmers on staff, though I could be wrong!

Fincool

Students will see the ranking and the percentage that was assigned to them by their teacher.

mtoutlemonde

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Four people? I can't imagine that being enough. I assume it's an automated algorithm designed to pick anomalies? The SEC would hardly have a couple of programmers on staff, though I could be wrong!

With the introduction of online marking, the SEC have recruited a number of people in the past few years that are available for all IT related problems. They have a solid knowledge in the systems so I assume their knowledge of the marking system and bell curves was required. I remember seeing a post for IT director (title may not be correct) advertised a few years ago with a salary far bigger than a teachers.

am_zarathustra

That's true but I suppose they bought in the online correcting system wholesale so they needed support as opposed to development which would be required for this. I'm mostly curious, the weighting of the algorithm will decide people grades, I'd be interested to see which factors carried what weight.

Mardy Bum

This will go one of two ways:
A) Grades are decided largely by algorithm with the teacher ranking being the most important ingredient.
All grades match the teachers' grades.

Both will be a disaster as proved by the English and Scottish systems. Teachers in both countries handed out marks to the point that there were twice as many achieving the highest grade in contrast with last year. This led to the algorithm deciding the grade which had a drastic effect on high achieving students in schools with low results over the past few years.

It is a lose lose situation.

shesty

The "bell curve" is applied in performance management in many workplaces - 3 of my workplaces to date have used it, where employees recieve a "mark" for the year's work against certain goals, the marks all then go in for a company-wide review carried out by Senior Management, where every single mark is reviewed and "standarised" across the company, and then you are told how you did, and dependent on that bonuses/payrises (company dependent).

I cannot describe the fighting it causes.The complaining and moaning and appealing and whining -and these are adults, doing mostly the same jobs year in, year out across a wide variety and level of roles. I can only imagine how the LC grades situation is going to go.

Millionaire only not

My understanding is that u will only see the ranking and teacher grade only if your appealing.
The appeals process is only that everything was done correctly marks will not change from what the teacher gave .
That’s my understanding which may not mean much .

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This will go one of two ways:
A) Grades are decided largely by algorithm with the teacher ranking being the most important ingredient.
All grades match the teachers' grades.

Both will be a disaster as proved by the English and Scottish systems. Teachers in both countries handed out marks to the point that there were twice as many achieving the highest grade in contrast with last year. This led to the algorithm deciding the grade which had a drastic effect on high achieving students in schools with low results over the past few years.

It is a lose lose situation.

I heard anecdotally that some schools had grades sent back for review, I don't know how true that is.

It's hard to know which way they will go. Another option is don't touch DEIS grades and bell curve the rest, that might stop the headlines similar to Scotland but it's open to its own issues.

There isn't a good answer, my guess is the LC will happen this year "by hook or by crook"

Treppen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This will go one of two ways:
A) Grades are decided largely by algorithm with the teacher ranking being the most important ingredient.
All grades match the teachers' grades.

Both will be a disaster as proved by the English and Scottish systems. Teachers in both countries handed out marks to the point that there were twice as many achieving the highest grade in contrast with last year. This led to the algorithm deciding the grade which had a drastic effect on high achieving students in schools with low results over the past few years.

It is a lose lose situation.

Minister Norma Foley said Socio Economic status and Gender would be accounted for!

Surprised she left out Learning Difficulty... Although not really as they are usually consigned to the forgotten afterthought in education.


"the outcomes need to be reviewed using different demographic characteristics which will include gender and socio-economic status to ensure that the grades are as fair and equitable as possible."

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/7777b-minister-foley-announces-next-steps-for-this-years-leaving-certificate-students/

Moody_mona

JPF82 wrote: »

With all the goings on in the UK system with the predicted grades, the below piece from the journal.ie came to my attention. https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-results-9-5175809-Aug2020/

In particular, this bit

The Department of Education confirmed to TheJournal.ie that students would be able to view their Calculated Grade broken down into the teacher-assessed grade and ranking.

“The results of the Calculated Grades will issue to students via the Calculated Grades Student Portal and simultaneously to schools on Monday, 7 September 2020,” it said.

“On Monday 14 September the student portal will open for appeal applications and at that time all students will be able to see a record of their individual estimated percentage mark and ranking assigned to them by their school.


I thought the students would only be able to see a ranking, and not the grade I assigned them. It's not that I wouldn't stand over my grades.

While looking at this, I believe RTÉ have a news article saying students only see the ranking. It could just be the journal being wrong.

This was not my understanding at all, that students would see grade or rank?

Treppen

Moody_mona wrote: »

This was not my understanding at all, that students would see grade or rank?

I emailed asti Union for clarification and got nothing, although they might have been out of office.

soso02

Surely under GDPR etc, students should have access to the school grade & ranking and the department's percentage mark ?

I know of a student who was only contacted by the CGEO this week to be told it was not possible to receive a calculated grade. Only sorting this out now, no wonder for the delay.

Does the student who took the minister to the high court have a case ? Hopefully this will be nipped in the bud to deter students from doing likewise..

Do the department expect schools to provide support to students who wish to sit the exams ? Their term was cut short by three/four weeks, how can they be expected to sit exams having been out of school for 7/8 months. I'm not confident anyways the exams will be in November given the SEC's overly cautious approach thus far.

Given results are available from 9am on the portal, I don't think many would go into school anyways.

Would it not make more sense to follow England's approach and have appeals be done on a school level. It won't be just one student being downgraded ? How would people feel about being able to choose between the calculated grade or mock result ? Happened in England, and our calculate grades system bears a striking resemblance to England's.

Treppen

soso02 wrote: »

Surely under GDPR etc, students should have access to the school grade & ranking and the department's percentage mark ?

I know of a student who was only contacted by the CGEO this week to be told it was not possible to receive a calculated grade. Only sorting this out now, no wonder for the delay.

Does the student who took the minister to the high court have a case ? Hopefully this will be nipped in the bud to deter students from doing likewise..

Do the department expect schools to provide support to students who wish to sit the exams ? Their term was cut short by three/four weeks, how can they be expected to sit exams having been out of school for 7/8 months. I'm not confident anyways the exams will be in November given the SEC's overly cautious approach thus far.

Given results are available from 9am on the portal, I don't think many would go into school anyways.

Would it not make more sense to follow England's approach and have appeals be done on a school level. It won't be just one student being downgraded ? How would people feel about being able to choose between the calculated grade or mock result ? Happened in England, and our calculate grades system bears a striking resemblance to England's.

It all goes back to the fact that papers for mocks were available , so anyone student cogging would be rewarded over say a student who's teacher set their own particularly hard mock paper for a very good class.

Even with a choice approach the cheating student would be rewarded with a course place possibly taking it from an honest student.

In terms of precedent, we know there are currently 5th and 2nd year students getting wise to predicted grades and questioning grades from teachers this summer. Going forward it would be in everyone's best interests to do as well as possible in the mocks for 2021... By simple hard work or other nefarious means.

It would make a mockery of the mocks.

Mardy Bum

Treppen wrote: »

It all goes back to the fact that papers for mocks were available , so anyone student cogging would be rewarded over say a student who's teacher set their own particularly hard mock paper for a very good class.

Even with a choice approach the cheating student would be rewarded with a course place possibly taking it from an honest student.

In terms of precedent, we know there are currently 5th and 2nd year students getting wise to predicted grades and questioning grades from teachers this summer. Going forward it would be in everyone's best interests to do as well as possible in the mocks for 2021... By simple hard work or other nefarious means.

It would make a mockery of the mocks.

It has become clear that calculated grades don't work because lots of teachers find it impossible to be objective and are too supportive and also the algorithm doesn't work. Entrance exams for courses would be a much better option. It would also encourage students to consider their choices wisely.

mirrorwall14

GCSE calculated grades in the North pulled. So far the A levels still stand....

doc_17

They are probably going to revert to the teacher predicted grades in England now as well (announcement at 4pm).

There’s going to be some panic in the Dept now! And it’s putting teachers in a hard place as well. Some will have done it given the benefit of the doubt to all their student, some won’t have. It’s going to be a sh*t storm.

Mardy Bum

doc_17 wrote: »

They are probably going to revert to the teacher predicted grades in England now as well (announcement at 4pm).

There’s going to be some panic in the Dept now! And it’s putting teachers in a hard place as well. Some will have done it given the benefit of the doubt to all their student, some won’t have. It’s going to be a sh*t storm.

As usual the teachers who do their job properly get crucified and those who don't will get away with it..

RealJohn

soso02 wrote: »

How would people feel about being able to choose between the calculated grade or mock result ? Happened in England, and our calculate grades system bears a striking resemblance to England's.

It would be terrible, but I could see it happening, and I don't think it would be any worse than what's supposed to be happening anyway (which is also terrible, in case that wasn't clear).

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It has become clear that calculated grades don't work because lots of teachers find it impossible to be objective and are too supportive and also the algorithm doesn't work.

Agreed on teachers. Teachers, in general, are inconsistent, at best, in all aspects of examining. That's why the SEC has marking conferences and advising examiners - even with a marking scheme, teachers don't mark consistently, and that's without having any bias involved.
The algorithm doesn't work as a concept, but that's more down to the unpredictability of any one student's exam performance.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Entrance exams for courses would be a much better option. It would also encourage students to consider their choices wisely.

Well yes, for those going to college. It doesn't solve the problem of students not having a leaving cert though (which is essentially what's happening now, since the leaving cert they're going to be given will be worthless).

rainbowtrout

Moody_mona wrote: »

This was not my understanding at all, that students would see grade or rank?

Well they would have to see grade and rank, otherwise they have nothing to appeal on.

E.g. student receives a H4 in English from DES in three weeks time and the mark was 62. Is that the same as the teacher predicted grade or not? Hears that other students in the class did better than them despite the fact that they know they were top in English all year. Appeal can only establish if process was adhered to correctly, and presumably part of that includes data entry.

Student looks at teacher mark and sees that it was a 92 and they were ranked 1 in the class. Appeal reveals that data was incorrectly entered and someone hit a 6 instead of a 9. Student is successful in appeal.


Case 2: Student gets H4 (again 62) from DES. Checks teacher grade and discovers that it was also a H4, only a 65. Mark was moderated but overall grade did not change. Student knows that an appeal will not change the mark. Whether they feel hard done by or not is another thing.

Moody_mona

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well they would have to see grade and rank, otherwise they have nothing to appeal on.

E.g. student receives a H4 in English from DES in three weeks time and the mark was 62. Is that the same as the teacher predicted grade or not? Hears that other students in the class did better than them despite the fact that they know they were top in English all year. Appeal can only establish if process was adhered to correctly, and presumably part of that includes data entry.

Student looks at teacher mark and sees that it was a 92 and they were ranked 1 in the class. Appeal reveals that data was incorrectly entered and someone hit a 6 instead of a 9. Student is successful in appeal.


Case 2: Student gets H4 (again 62) from DES. Checks teacher grade and discovers that it was also a H4, only a 65. Mark was moderated but overall grade did not change. Student knows that an appeal will not change the mark. Whether they feel hard done by or not is another thing.

Thanks Rainbowtrout. I suppose I thought it would be more DES based. As per your case A, students receives 62%. Isn't happy and appeals. Department check that the grade awarded was correct, it wasn't, they update it. Similar to Junior Cert appeals of years gone by I guess?

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well they would have to see grade and rank, otherwise they have nothing to appeal on.

E.g. student receives a H4 in English from DES in three weeks time and the mark was 62. Is that the same as the teacher predicted grade or not? Hears that other students in the class did better than them despite the fact that they know they were top in English all year. Appeal can only establish if process was adhered to correctly, and presumably part of that includes data entry.

Student looks at teacher mark and sees that it was a 92 and they were ranked 1 in the class. Appeal reveals that data was incorrectly entered and someone hit a 6 instead of a 9. Student is successful in appeal.


Case 2: Student gets H4 (again 62) from DES. Checks teacher grade and discovers that it was also a H4, only a 65. Mark was moderated but overall grade did not change. Student knows that an appeal will not change the mark. Whether they feel hard done by or not is another thing.

Say the Student Gets H1 from the teacher at 91% ( the student's own Junior cert result was exceptional 100%) and finds the department has dropped them to H2.

They appeal and find there's no clerical error, the algorithm has performed it's grade adjustment accordingly, what then ?

rainbowtrout

Moody_mona wrote: »

Thanks Rainbowtrout. I suppose I thought it would be more DES based. As per your case A, students receives 62%. Isn't happy and appeals. Department check that the grade awarded was correct, it wasn't, they update it. Similar to Junior Cert appeals of years gone by I guess?

I presume so, based on the fact that they've said the appeals were essentially an administrative check. Otherwise anyone that was downgraded from their teachers grade would appeal.

Treppen wrote: »

Say the Student Gets H1 from the teacher at 91% ( the student's own Junior cert result was exceptional 100%) and finds the department has dropped them to H2.

They appeal and find there's no clerical error, the algorithm has performed it's grade adjustment accordingly, what then ?

Talk to Joe I guess. Sit the exams in November if they want. The majority of people will still be offered a college place and then the fuss will die down.

There will be a furore in the media in a few weeks time I presume, but if the grades are in line with previous years then the algorithm has done it's job.

That's something I'd be curious to know about the English/Scottish grades. Aside from the meltdown about grades being downgraded over there, I'd like to know how the moderated grades compared to the bell curve of previous years and what the bell curve was like for the teachers' predicted grades.


But to come back to your example, context is important. Are they the only H1 predicted for that class/school. If so and the school usually gets a H1 in that subject, then it appears to be unfair. But if the school typically gets three H1s per year in the subject and 5 students were awarded H1s by the teachers of that subject and this student was either in 4th or 5th position in the ranking of those H1s, then the students who scored higher H1s will get the grade, which is what would happen in the exams. The curve would look after it.

I had three excellent students in my LC class last year, any one of them could have got a H1 on the day. I typically would only have one H1 when I do have one. I would have been rightly stuck this year if I was trying to predict grades for those three to separate them out. I viewed their scripts with them last summer. All three got H2s, but they were A2s in old money. An 85, 87 and 88 so really there was nothing between them, and that happens across the country every year, only I would suspect teachers would have given the benefit of the doubt in the predictions for many of these and given them the H1. For the 87/88 one extra part of a question answered correctly would have carried them over the line. Even one extra H1 per school doesn't look like much to the teacher awarding it but the cumulative effect is quite considerable.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I presume so, based on the fact that they've said the appeals were essentially an administrative check. Otherwise anyone that was downgraded from their teachers grade would appeal.



Talk to Joe I guess. Sit the exams in November if they want. The majority of people will still be offered a college place and then the fuss will die down.

There will be a furore in the media in a few weeks time I presume, but if the grades are in line with previous years then the algorithm has done it's job.

That's something I'd be curious to know about the English/Scottish grades. Aside from the meltdown about grades being downgraded over there, I'd like to know how the moderated grades compared to the bell curve of previous years and what the bell curve was like for the teachers' predicted grades.

Classes with over 15 were moderated solely by the algorithm which used school profile data i.e. the teacher grade wasn't used at all. Classes with between 5-15 had used a mixture of the teacher grade and school profile data. Less than five just used the teacher grade.

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Classes with over 15 were moderated solely by the algorithm which used school profile data i.e. the teacher grade wasn't used at all. Classes with between 5-15 had used a mixture of the teacher grade and school profile data. Less than five just used the teacher grade.

Thanks for that. That's interesting. The algorithm wasn't applied consistently then. That process to my mind would appear to skew in favour of fee paying schools where class sizes are smaller, outcomes are generally good, students have all the advantages. Students in those schools (the Etons and Harrows of the world) do achieve good grades, but they have everything going in their favour and they were always likely to have good grades predicted for them too and in this system, not have them moderated. Students in a large comprehensive are always going to be fighting to get their deserved grade when they are being graded on their socio economic status only.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Thanks for that. That's interesting. The algorithm wasn't applied consistently then. That process to my mind would appear to skew in favour of fee paying schools where class sizes are smaller, outcomes are generally good, students have all the advantages. Students in those schools (the Etons and Harrows of the world) do achieve good grades, but they have everything going in their favour and they were always likely to have good grades predicted for them too and in this system, not have them moderated. Students in a large comprehensive are always going to be fighting to get their deserved grade when they are being graded on their socio economic status only.

That is exactly what happened. The first issue was wild over predictions which then led to teacher predictions being ignored in larger cohorts which was obviously stupid at the same time. Even the best schools had a large minority of grades decreased. Some comprehensive schools had 60+% downgraded because of the algorithm though. Now they are reverting to the best of the teacher grade, mock grade or calculated grade. An omnishambles which N Foley may have ahead of her.

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

That is exactly what happened. The first issue was wild over predictions which then led to teacher predictions being ignored in larger cohorts which was obviously stupid at the same time. Even the best schools had a large minority of grades decreased. Some comprehensive schools had 60+% downgraded because of the algorithm though. Now they are reverting to the best of the teacher grade, mock grade or calculated grade. An omnishambles which N Foley may have ahead of her.

What I would hope would happen is that all the grades are chucked into the system as they are and a bell curve formed (for each subject). Compare bell curve with typical curve for that subject in previous years. If it's out of whack (which it probably is), then adjust the whole curve downwards to bring it in line with the typical curve, so grades are adjusted anonymously on a national level. Then once that is done have a look at the impact of that adjustment at local level to see if some schools have been harshly treated and if some are getting away with murder cos they chance their arm and put in for a way higher than normal number of H1s.



The notion of failing someone on predicted grade bothers me more than the scramble for H1 grades to be honest. We've all had that student who doesn't open a book for 2 years and comes out with a D3/H6 or H7 now. The idea of failing someone on an exam they haven't sat bothers me. The implication particularly for maths can mean losing a place in college or on an apprenticeship etc.

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

... We've all had that student who doesn't open a book for 2 years and comes out with a D3/H6 or H7 now...

We should not be propagating the notion that a H7 isn’t a fail.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

We should not be propagating the notion that a H7 isn’t a fail.

It's accepted for college entry and for points. No student is going to consider a grade that offers them points and college entry as a fail. I think it's a lost battle at this stage.


I have a bigger problem with 'Partially Achieved' for Junior Cycle. You can't partially achieve in your driving test. You pass or fail.

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's accepted for college entry and for points. No student is going to consider a grade that offers them points and college entry as a fail. I think it's a lost battle at this stage.


I have a bigger problem with 'Partially Achieved' for Junior Cycle. You can't partially achieve in your driving test. You pass or fail.

Just because they’re allowing it doesn’t change what it is.

I have an even bigger problem with “yet to meet ...” than I do with “partially achieved”, in fairness. “Partially achieved” implies some part was achieved, which has some truth to it. “Yet to meet ...” implies that the deadline hasn’t past and that there’s still a chance, when there isn’t. It should be “Failed to meet ...”

joe40

Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Just because they’re allowing it doesn’t change what it is.

I have an even bigger problem with “yet to meet ...” than I do with “partially achieved”, in fairness. “Partially achieved” implies some part was achieved, which has some truth to it. “Yet to meet ...” implies that the deadline hasn’t past and that there’s still a chance, when there isn’t. It should be “Failed to meet ...”

Oh I have a problem with that too. I had blocked out CBAs from memory there over the summer. I tackled the one who was giving our last inservice on it. I said that yet to meet implies that they will meet it or have the chance of meeting it when in reality no one repeats third year, so they don't have that chance, but also that some students will never pass a subject no matter how many times they try, because they lack ability in that area. And that's ok. We can't all be experts in everything. She didn't have an answer for me.

rainbowtrout

joe40 wrote: »

Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.

It depends how they've tackled the grade calculations in comparison to the UK.

doc_17

It’s going to be total carnage. Maybe it’s a good thing that schools will be teaching a normal day on Sept 7 and won’t have distraught and angry students in.

RealJohn

joe40 wrote: »

Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.

I think there’s a strong chance that’ll happen, if people kick up about the predicted grades they’re given. That way, the government can put it all on teachers, and like you said, the most obvious result will just be that the points go up.
Never mind the students whose teachers got it mostly right losing out. There’ll be no way to identify them, or that they lost out.

RealJohn

doc_17 wrote: »

It’s going to be total carnage. Maybe it’s a good thing that schools will be teaching a normal day on Sept 7 and won’t have distraught and angry students in.

I’d be surprised if schools don’t have angry students in.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

I think there’s a strong chance that’ll happen, if people kick up about the predicted grades they’re given. That way, the government can put it all on teachers, and like you said, the most obvious result will just be that the points go up.
Never mind the students whose teachers got it mostly right losing out. There’ll be no way to identify them, or that they lost out.

Well it's far more likely that grades would be adjusted down by the DES than upwards. So if you've given a student a H1 and the DES gives them a H2, I'm not sure how teachers can be blamed here. It's the DES that have done them out of the grade.

am_zarathustra

It will have a terrible effect on the incoming 6th years. I can take my predicted grades in 5 subjects and cram for 2 months (with a tutor or grinds) and sit one exam whenever. Mix and match my points and I'm in medicine.....a kids next year will have to compete honestly with this year's students pick and mix.

The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down

mirrorwall14

I didn’t err on the generous side. I also consulted with both teachers who had my class on maternity leave last year and there was agreement. However the class just happen to be significantly stronger than other years. Which is an issue clearly. As they will be adjusted based on previous years....

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well it's far more likely that grades would be adjusted down by the DES than upwards. So if you've given a student a H1 and the DES gives them a H2, I'm not sure how teachers can be blamed here. It's the DES that have done them out of the grade.

I was saying that if they revert to the grades the teachers assigned, that they can then blame teachers for everything, and wash their own hands of it.

RealJohn

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down

Overall, I think I probably did err on the geneous side, but I still feel like I might have given one student too low a mark, and that's in spite of having a lot of experience with the SEC. I just don't think I got it right. The generosity wasn't unconscious (it was taking the socioeconomic status of the school, and the possibility of marks being downgraded, into account), but even in spite of this, I think I have at least one student that I gave too low a mark to, and that's not counting the students I failed because they picked higher level when they never showed me anything in class, who might well have passed with three months of good work.

The whole thing is a disaster.

Newbie20

I’d be really annoyed if they just let the teachers grade stand. I gave grades that I thought were accurate and realistic but I know of a couple of teachers that gave very inflated grades (now they couldn’t seem to see themselves that they were inflating them but anyone that teaches the students in question would know that they were.)

The funny thing is with all the complaining in England and Scotland, the students don’t seem to get that being brought down/up to fit in with the bell curve is what happens ever single year anyway. And unfortunately disadvantaged schools do worse every year than private schools, that’s just the reality. I suppose it’s harder to take when it’s just a number being changed as opposed to a marking scheme.

The Leaving Cert should have gone ahead in the summer and all this nonsense would have been avoided. I hope the likely anger on the 7th of September is pointed in the right direction.

Treppen

RealJohn wrote: »

Overall, I think I probably did err on the geneous side, but I still feel like I might have given one student too low a mark, and that's in spite of having a lot of experience with the SEC. I just don't think I got it right. The generosity wasn't unconscious (it was taking the socioeconomic status of the school, and the possibility of marks being downgraded, into account), but even in spite of this, I think I have at least one student that I gave too low a mark to, and that's not counting the students I failed because they picked higher level when they never showed me anything in class, who might well have passed with three months of good work.

The whole thing is a disaster.

That doesn't sound like generosity.

joebloggs32

RealJohn wrote: »

I was saying that if they revert to the grades the teachers assigned, that they can then blame teachers for everything, and wash their own hands of it.

I contacted our area rep in the union yesterday on this issue. This will leave us hanging out to dry if it happens.
The process was agreed in advance. We never asked for it, but did what we were asked to do.
The media will whip up a storm when the results land. The sob stories will flow and Norma looking to be seen to do something will do a u turn and let the teachers grades stand. Then every student will know exactly what we predicted. All the blame for missing a place in college will be lumped on us.
Its going to be a sh1tshow.

openup

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down

This. Entire departments at my school made it policy to not award lower that 40.1.

amacca

openup wrote: »

This. Entire departments at my school made it policy to not award lower that 40.1.

Thats just not right and leaves anyone that did what they were told and engaged with the process correctly (or as close to those ridiculous "guidelines" as possible) in the ****.

But it doesnt surprise me after reading through a lot of the self serving guff that has been produced lately by JCT etc etc