Do you think Euthanasia will ever be legal in Ireland?

server down · 27-10-2017 12:31am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Pic is hilarious!ðŸ˜…
Kids can seek it. Or can they not?

the picture of a dying child in extreme pain, pain that contorts her so much her veins bulge - you find that hilarious?

That’s pretty sick.

RustyNut · 27-10-2017 12:32am

I certainty hope the option is legally available to me and mine should the need or desire ever come up but I fear it will be like abortion, only available to those with the resources to travel abroad. My body, my choice.

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 12:39am

server down wrote: »

You got a link for that?

Google it.
I'm on the phone, so i can't link and if i was on the laptop i wouldn't link. You are able to use search engines, so choose a few words and you'll find it if you want.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 12:41am

lazybones32 wrote: »

corner of hells wrote: »

In regard to the "wrong medication" comment and a resident dying ,that's astonishing , your hardly suggesting there's some form of collusion to and residents lives ?

In Jan this year, a female doctor was found to have acted "in good faith" after sedating a patient (slipped it in her coffee) and got family members to hold her down as she was euthanized - against her will.
The patient had expressed a desire for euthanasia but only "when i feel the time is right for me" but in the days prior to her death, she had indicated a clear desire to continue living. The doctor decided and the patients resistance was futile.

Collusion, you ask? Lol.

Your being very disingenuous posting that comment, that incident was in Holland about three years ago.
It's very clear that I was talking about Irish nursing homes with examples of how patients pay to live in them.
What's with the LOL comment , something funny ?

server down · 27-10-2017 12:44am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Google it.
I'm on the phone, so i can't link and if i was on the laptop i wouldn't link. You are able to use search engines, so choose a few words and you'll find it if you want.

I take it then there is no link or you can’t use a search engine. (Tip: search engines work on mobiles). It isn’t up to me or anybody else on this forum to prove your story.

You’ve already proven yourself to be the kind of man who laughs at a dying child though, so this failure is not surprising

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 12:46am

server down wrote: »

the picture of a dying child in extreme pain, pain that contorts her so much her veins bulge - you find that hilarious?

That’s pretty sick.

My disdain is for the poster, not the picture.
150,000 people, on average, die every day.
How many of them can be saved by me having sympathy or empathy or crying the most heartfelt tears that i'm capable of?

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 12:48am

server down wrote: »

lazybones32 wrote: »

Google it.
I'm on the phone, so i can't link and if i was on the laptop i wouldn't link. You are able to use search engines, so choose a few words and you'll find it if you want.

I take it then there is no link or you can’t use a search engine. (Tip: search engines work on mobiles). It isn’t up to me or anybody else on this forum to prove your story.

You’ve already proven yourself to be the kind of man who laughs at a dying child though, so this failure is not surprising

Oh it did happen , I'm nearly certain it was Holland, it's the way it's trivialized by the poster by not providing details.
It's to go before a court not to prosecute but to seek clarity.

server down · 27-10-2017 12:52am

lazybones32 wrote: »

My disdain is for the poster, not the picture.
150,000 people, on average, die every day.
How many of them can be saved by me having sympathy or empathy or crying the most heartfelt tears that i'm capable of?

None. Nobody is asking you to cry for the deaths of the unknown. However you were not disdaining the poster, you said the picture was hilarious.

That means you found it funny.

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 12:53am

server down wrote: »

I take it then there is no link or you can’t use a search engine. (Tip: search engines work on mobiles). It isn’t up to me or anybody else on this forum to prove your story.

You’ve already proven yourself to be the kind of man who laughs at a dying child though, so this failure is not surprising

Read the first line. I'm on the phone so I CAN'T LINK. And it isn't up to me to teach you how to use the fcuking internet, is it?

wakka12 · 27-10-2017 12:54am

Ever is a big word. Im sure at some stage..mabye not soon though. Abortion now, one step at a time..

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 12:57am

corner of hells wrote: »

Oh it did happen , I'm nearly certain it was Holland, it's the way it's trivialized by the poster by not providing details.
It's to go before a court not to prosecute but to seek clarity.

Trivialized? Moi?
I think it scary that a doctor decides to sedate a patient in order to kill them but to get her family members to hold her down too...and they comply.

Anything but trivial but i'm not a journalist, so i don't have to write reverently.

server down · 27-10-2017 12:57am

I think the support for properly controlled euthanasia is wider than people think. The most religious person I know, my aged aunt came out in favour two christmases back. This woman is steadfastly anti abortion.

This was after a few sherries mind you but I know one of her parents had a slow lingering death. Years back. (She’s an in law so I didn’t really know them).

Country people are also used to the idea of not leaving an animal to die horribly but to “end the misery”, this logic can be easily applied to humans.

server down · 27-10-2017 1:00am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Read the first line. I'm on the phone so I CAN'T LINK. And it isn't up to me to teach you how to use the fcuking internet, is it?

Apparently though that does work the other way

I’m on the phone. Here’s a link.

www.google.com

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 1:01am

corner of hells wrote: »

Your being very disingenuous posting that comment, that incident was in Holland about three years ago.
It's very clear that I was talking about Irish nursing homes with examples of how patients pay to live in them.
What's with the LOL comment , something funny ?

The post i replied to didn't mention irish nursing homes.
The info i provided is from a nation where euthanasia is legal. Lol. AND as i wrote, the case was concluded in Jan of this year. Lol.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 1:02am

lazybones32 wrote: »

corner of hells wrote: »

Oh it did happen , I'm nearly certain it was Holland, it's the way it's trivialized by the poster by not providing details.
It's to go before a court not to prosecute but to seek clarity.

Trivialized? Moi?
I think it scary that a doctor decides to sedate a patient in order to kill them but to get her family members to hold her down too...and they comply.

Anything but trivial but i'm not a journalist, so i don't have to write reverently.

Oh I dunno , trivialized because of lack of detail , the LOL thrown in or even your own little Moi comment smacks of an attempt of humour or sarcasm.

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 1:03am

server down wrote: »

Apparently though that does work the other way

I’m on the phone. Here’s a link.

www.google.com

1: how did you do that?
2: if you know how to search, search. You have an encyclopedia at your fingers but still need to be shown pages?

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 1:04am

server down wrote: »

lazybones32 wrote: »

Read the first line. I'm on the phone so I CAN'T LINK. And it isn't up to me to teach you how to use the fcuking internet, is it?

Apparently though that does work the other way

I’m on the phone. Here’s a link.

www.google.com

Lol

gctest50 · 27-10-2017 1:05am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Read the first line. I'm on the phone so I CAN'T LINK. And it isn't up to me to teach you how to use the fcuking internet, is it?

here's a link from a phone, it's not a problem :

https://www.asn.org.uk/

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 1:07am

corner of hells wrote: »

Oh I dunno , trivialized because of lack of detail , the LOL thrown in or even your own little Moi comment smacks of an attempt of humour or sarcasm.

I gave you plenty of detail. Woman - doctor - sedated - restrained - dead. Want a picture too?
Maybe google the story for more info?

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 1:12am

gctest50 wrote: »

here's a link from a phone, it's not a problem :

https://www.asn.org.uk/

Oh no! Words.....

Try harder...a lot harder.

lazybones32 · 27-10-2017 1:13am

corner of hells wrote: »

Lol

Now you're getting it.

DaithiMa · 27-10-2017 1:44am

I am not sure if it will ever be legal. In my opinion, having watched once proud men and women dying slowly and painfully without any dignity, I think it should be 100% legal in the event of terminal illness. If you are given a death sentence by your health you should be allowed go out on your own terms.

Firblog · 27-10-2017 9:20am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Read the first line. I'm on the phone so I CAN'T LINK. And it isn't up to me to teach you how to use the fcuking internet, is it?

And the username could have been a clue to the answer as to the chances of him doing the search and posting it as requested.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 9:31am

isn't liverpool care pathway practiced in Ireland.

Isn't this just another name for euthianasia without calling it euthianasia.

I don't think euthiansia itself will solve any of the problems in the department of health. I don't think it will even help.

The system needs replacing.

....... · 27-10-2017 9:32am

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seamie78 · 27-10-2017 9:34am

medical advances and interventions are keeping people alive beyond what was previously possible, just because somebody can be kept alive doesn't mean they should be, it can be difficult for loved ones to make an objective decision. I believe that there should be a process whereby people of sound mind and body can indicate at what stage they wish treatment etc to stop/discontinue. the hse could have a central data base where people register there wishes and can update on an annual basis prior to falling ill. an example may be not knowing family any longer, or being unable to communicate or move

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 9:41am

The problem I have with all this is I have seen where medical professionals decide for a patient that it's their time to die, even if it's against there wishes.

Patients should be allowed to decide this and not have if enforced on them.

Knex* · 27-10-2017 9:41am

I think it should be legal not only for those who are ill, but just for those who generally don't want to live anymore.

I accept that this is extreme in the eyes of many, but if you don't own your own life, what do you truly own.

....... · 27-10-2017 9:49am

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 9:50am

The problem with Euthanasia once you introduce it people can be pressured by others into it.

This is not right.

Ubbquittious · 27-10-2017 9:52am

The nursing homes in this country make so much money every month from keeping people somewhat alive for as long as possible while draining thousands a month from the patient and their family's' bank accounts that I doubt it will happen any time soon.

No doubt they have already signaled the government that they don't want it brought in so the only way it could happen really is if d'EU decided to bring it in for us.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 9:53am

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes I have experienced it Twice in Irish Hospitals one with a relative and the other with a friend.

It's just not talked about.

I have friends who have also experienced this in Irish Hospitals and also a relative that is a nurse who confirms that it happens quite often but people don't realise it.

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-10-2017 10:01am

I would like to see it someday somehow, for many reasons. Not least being that if the concept of ownership or possession is to mean anything to me in this world, then I must at minimum own my own life and the decisions of what I want to do with it, including end it.

I have read the arguments "against" it in the past many times and they are all arguments against it being done badly, not against it being done at all. Arguments that people might be pressured into it (post #81 above for example) or people seeking it for what we deem to be the "wrong" reasons.

But arguments against the principle itself, that people should be able to choose to die, and be supported in the decision and it's execution, appear thin on the ground. I can not think of one myself to be honest.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 10:04am

Knex. wrote: »

I think it should be legal not only for those who are ill, but just for those who generally don't want to live anymore.

I accept that this is extreme in the eyes of many, but if you don't own your own life, what do you truly own.

This is allowed, in Switzerland anyway. The show I referred to earlier in the thread showed a guy who was suicidal. He went through all the psychological analysis and confirmed this was his decision. He didn't want to die alone or hurt himself, he wanted a dignified peaceful end and that's what he got.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 10:05am

Terrlock wrote: »

The problem with Euthanasia once you introduce it people can be pressured by others into it.

This is not right.

How can they pressured into doing it?

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:14am

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

How can they pressured into doing it?

You think people can't be pressured into it?

Of course they can and are.

You don't have to look very far to find articles on the subject.

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-10-2017 10:17am

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

How can they pressured into doing it?

I suppose if I was lying in a hospital bed and I was terminally ill and in pain.......... and my loved one(s) came to me saying.......

"Oh my love, seeing you in pain is so awful for us, we are suffering so much watching you like this, would you not consider the option of............."

........ I would feel somewhat pressured by that. Now you can argue it would be poor form for them to do, immoral even and so on and so on. But at the end of the day I would feel some level of pressure from that.

To name but one example. I am all for Euthanisia myself but I can certainly see how people might feel pressure to use it.

Not sure how medical insurance might work with it too for example. If keeping someone alive is very costly in certain circumstances, and them taking the assisted death route much cheaper........ could they through policy or premiums word contracts in such a way that in some situations they would withhold paying out on the policy if the cheaper "right to die" option were not taken?

That I know admittedly little about, but my imagination runs riot on it. But I suspect that I as a medical insurance consumer might happily take a cheaper policy if it stipulated that a certain level of ongoing pain medication would negate my contract. And I would take the cheaper policy in the knowledge that, were I to reach that level of ongoing pain, I am someone who would likely choose death instead of trying to mediate it.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 10:18am

Ubbquittious wrote: »

The nursing homes in this country make so much money every month from keeping people somewhat alive for as long as possible while draining thousands a month from the patient and their family's' bank accounts that I doubt it will happen any time soon.

No doubt they have already signaled the government that they don't want it brought in so the only way it could happen really is if d'EU decided to bring it in for us.

It's a lesser of two evils , do you leave elderly infirm people in thier own homes or look to admit them to a nursing home.

You don't necessarily have to pay yourself out of your funds to pay for care in a nursing home.Both Fair Deal and subvention don't touch the children's or spouses assets , both are means tested and if you are wealthy enough private care is available.

Nursing homes provide care and support for people unable to care for themselves and also for a family if they are unable to look after their loved one in their own homes.

No nursing home will take some who needs extensive medical care , most won't admit a patient with bedsores nevermind some needing daily attention off a doctor.

....... · 27-10-2017 10:19am

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:26am

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes both were conscious and wanted to live and not on machines.

And one survived as his son was a nurse who knew what was going on and made the doctors and nurse stop.

They give a drug which effectively shuts down all the organ in the body and stop giving food and water.

This person is alive enjoying life today because is son intervened. The other person was not so lucky.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 10:28am

Terrlock wrote: »

....... wrote: »

Do you mean a conscious person is saying "I want to live" and doctors are actually actively killing them?

Or people on machines with no hope? They must be conscious though if they are expressing they dont want to die?

Yes both were conscious and wanted to live and not on machines.

And one survived as his son was a nurse who knew what was going on and made the doctors and nurse stop.

They give a drug which effectively shuts down all the organ in the body and stop giving food and water.

This person is alive enjoying life today because is son intervened. The other person was not so lucky.

That's astonishing .

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:42am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I suppose if I was lying in a hospital bed and I was terminally ill and in pain.......... and my loved one(s) came to me saying.......

"Oh my love, seeing you in pain is so awful for us, we are suffering so much watching you like this, would you not consider the option of............."

........ I would feel somewhat pressured by that. Now you can argue it would be poor form for them to do, immoral even and so on and so on. But at the end of the day I would feel some level of pressure from that.

To name but one example. I am all for Euthanisia myself but I can certainly see how people might feel pressure to use it.

Not sure how medical insurance might work with it too for example. If keeping someone alive is very costly in certain circumstances, and them taking the assisted death route much cheaper........ could they through policy or premiums word contracts in such a way that in some situations they would withhold paying out on the policy if the cheaper "right to die" option were not taken?

That I know admittedly little about, but my imagination runs riot on it. But I suspect that I as a medical insurance consumer might happily take a cheaper policy if it stipulated that a certain level of ongoing pain medication would negate my contract. And I would take the cheaper policy in the knowledge that, were I to reach that level of ongoing pain, I am someone who would likely choose death instead of trying to mediate it.

You can find many news articles on the subject, however is is a link to a very interesting report from a Medical Professional

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/

One qoute from the article is a little startling

"900 people annually are administered lethal substances without having given explicit consent"

....... · 27-10-2017 10:46am

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:56am

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your right it is Murder but not deemed that way as it's worded as a treatment.

I'm not sure people realise how much this actually happens as I have talked with numerous people who report the same thing.

Imagine a family being told your dad has only a few hours to live. They are brought in and told to give the final goodbyes and all of that.

The go in, they all talking with him, give their goodbyes. Then one of his son's arrives at the hospital, goes into the room takes a quick look at his chart and shouts there killing him.

He then proceeds to get the nurses and I won't repeat what he said to them but his actions saved his fathers life.

He is alive today years later living a full life. He has medical issues but nothing he can't live with and is very happy.

GritBiscuit · 27-10-2017 11:00am

Terrlock wrote: »

Your right it is Murder but not deemed that way as it's worded as a treatment.

I'm struggling to think of any common medical practice that would be deemed legal treatment which would end the life of a patient that would otherwise live for years.

If true, I presume the family in question reported this to the Gardaí and sought legal advice or at the very least an investigation by the medical council?

....... · 27-10-2017 11:02am

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 11:08am

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your right they should, I certainly would persue it to the very end.

They haven't that I'm aware of and I don't know difficult it would be too persue legally or if the infact they have had an investigation into it and it came to some sort of private agreement the haven't shared with the rest of us.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 11:11am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I suppose if I was lying in a hospital bed and I was terminally ill and in pain.......... and my loved one(s) came to me saying.......

"Oh my love, seeing you in pain is so awful for us, we are suffering so much watching you like this, would you not consider the option of............."

........ I would feel somewhat pressured by that. Now you can argue it would be poor form for them to do, immoral even and so on and so on. But at the end of the day I would feel some level of pressure from that.

To name but one example. I am all for Euthanisia myself but I can certainly see how people might feel pressure to use it.

Not sure how medical insurance might work with it too for example. If keeping someone alive is very costly in certain circumstances, and them taking the assisted death route much cheaper........ could they through policy or premiums word contracts in such a way that in some situations they would withhold paying out on the policy if the cheaper "right to die" option were not taken?

That I know admittedly little about, but my imagination runs riot on it. But I suspect that I as a medical insurance consumer might happily take a cheaper policy if it stipulated that a certain level of ongoing pain medication would negate my contract. And I would take the cheaper policy in the knowledge that, were I to reach that level of ongoing pain, I am someone who would likely choose death instead of trying to mediate it.

But from what I saw, it's not done like that in other countries. There are checks in place to make sure it is the individual's choice. Like I said before, they have to be of sound mind and they have to be able to take the concoction themselves. I don't know about other countries, but from what I saw I Switzerland, nobody administers it to you. If you don't pass the psychological assessment part, you don't get it done and if you can't physically lift the glass to take the drink, you don't get it done.

LadyMacBeth_ · 27-10-2017 11:14am

I think it will be a long time before it is legal in Ireland. I fully support euthanasia if it is implemented with stringent rules. I think for terminal illnesses it should definitely be an option for people, not to take the ''strain'' off the medical system though, but for the people who are suffering with the illness. I have a progressive degenerative disease myself and I can see that there could come a time in the future when I have very poor quality of life and might want to just end things.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 11:15am

Terrlock wrote: »

Your right they should, I certainly would persue it to the very end.

They haven't that I'm aware of and I don't know difficult it would be too persue legally or if the infact they have had an investigation into it and it came to some sort of private agreement the haven't shared with the rest of us.

But the other person who survived, can they not report what they and their son know to the Gardaí? Wasn't Harold Shipman Killing off old people and he went to prison for it?

Is it the morphine driver you're talking about?

Do you think Euthanasia will ever be legal in Ireland?

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