Club head speed

redzerdrog · 27-01-2021 11:45pm

Russman wrote: »

Not directly related to speed, but I just saw the Shot Scope have added Strokes Gained to their app, very interesting to say the least !:eek::D

Very good! I love my Garmin Approach S62 but the Garmin golf app does seem to be getting left behind by the others.

monkeybutter · 28-01-2021 10:59am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The mistake I made was not differentiating between club head speed and speed of the body, power is strength and speed combined, that is speed of the body, increase power you increase clubhead speed.

Power can be higher with increased speed of the body which is the what the systems such as superspeed do. Power can also be increased by getting stronger.

You can have golfers who move their body quickly but lack strength, think younger and some female golfers, and don’t have the same club head speed as stronger golfers who move their body a little slower.

you aren't making a whole pile of sense at this stage

strength can allow you to move faster, that is all, if you don't the club won't

The power is in the club head

as I said, club head speed is king

DuckSlice · 28-01-2021 11:22am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Very good! I love my Garmin Approach S62 but the Garmin golf app does seem to be getting left behind by the others.

Hopefully they will update the app soon. There is strokes gained already in the app though I think isn't there?

Russman · 28-01-2021 11:49am

Interesting graph here

https://puredrivegolf.com/blog/handicap-vs-average-club-head-speed

Obviously plenty of caveats re cause and correlation but interesting all the same

Jimbee · 28-01-2021 11:54am

This obsession with swing swing speed is dominating you game. I can add 10mph to all your swings if you can measure your ss now and again on a hot summers day. Pga tour follows the sun they play in heat all the time.
We don't.! The weather affects your body movement speed and the ball speed off the face not to mention how the ball flies through the air with our humid/damp climate.
Your comparing yourselves with Dechambeau that's not realistic for anyone in this country.
But we are in lockdown so i guess we do need something to fill the void left but golf course closures, just don't let ruin you swing and contact with ball.

FixdePitchmark · 28-01-2021 12:02pm

Jimbee wrote: »

This obsession with swing swing speed is dominating you game. I can add 10mph to all your swings if you can measure your ss now and again on a hot summers day. Pga tour follows the sun they play in heat all the time.
We don't.! The weather affects your body movement speed and the ball speed off the face not to mention how the ball flies through the air with our humid/damp climate.
Your comparing yourselves with Dechambeau that's not realistic for anyone in this country.
But we are in lockdown so i guess we do need something to fill the void left but golf course closures, just don't let ruin you swing and contact with ball.

I don't think anyone is that delusional.

The graph just posted above is about all handicaps.

The advantage of swing speed plays out in any weather. In fact you could make an argument it is more important in irish conditions. Ground and air.

I see lads swinging a golf club and there is little or no effort. They are not going to get far with it. Some even walk slow.

The point is you can play golf . Float around and play off a mid to high handicap . But if you want to get lower . You need to think about swing speed . Getting the ball out there and hitting greens in regulation. Even walking faster would help some.

redzerdrog · 28-01-2021 12:50pm

etxp wrote: »

Hopefully they will update the app soon. There is strokes gained already in the app though I think isn't there?

Yeh there is a version of it alright but just not very clear in how they produce and show the data

benny79 · 28-01-2021 1:56pm

Yes but if you look at The Open. The big hitters are only driving it just over 300 yds the average drops way down compared to the PGA tour. As far as I remember anyway could be wrong. Why because of the climate obviously. Just like when you play in Spain or Portugal! The ball goes a mile plus the only time I ever get 300 yd drives Sadly

ShivasIrons · 28-01-2021 2:25pm

benny79 wrote: »

Yes but if you look at The Open. The big hitters are only driving it just over 300 yds the average drops way down compared to the PGA tour. As far as I remember anyway could be wrong. Why because of the climate obviously. Just like when you play in Spain or Portugal! The ball goes a mile plus the only time I ever get 300 yd drives Sadly

That's not related to swing speed, that's related to temperature and humidity, the ball flies differently at different temperatures, humidity and altitudes.

ShivasIrons · 28-01-2021 2:32pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

you aren't making a whole pile of sense at this stage

strength can allow you to move faster, that is all, if you don't the club won't

The power is in the club head

as I said, club head speed is king

I mightn't be explaining power properly but you said strength is not a factor in club head speed. This is not true. You are not explaining where club head speed comes from. You even have said that power is in the club head?

The club head is an inanimate object, there is no power in it. The power comes from the golfer and it comes from strength and speed, that is the speed the body moves. The golfer applies the power to the club.

Can you explain where club head speed comes from?

ClutchIt · 28-01-2021 3:36pm

Jimbee wrote: »

This obsession with swing swing speed is dominating you game. I can add 10mph to all your swings if you can measure your ss now and again on a hot summers day. Pga tour follows the sun they play in heat all the time.
We don't.! The weather affects your body movement speed and the ball speed off the face not to mention how the ball flies through the air with our humid/damp climate.
Your comparing yourselves with Dechambeau that's not realistic for anyone in this country.
But we are in lockdown so i guess we do need something to fill the void left but golf course closures, just don't let ruin you swing and contact with ball.

As said elsewhere, you will be competing with people playing in the same conditions, so any extra swing speed will still have the same advantage over the field.
Yes, of course good contact is the most important thing, fully agree.

GreeBo · 28-01-2021 5:15pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

Distance will be an estimation based off a number of elements including CHS

Sure, but it the distance is accurate then do you care how they got there?

redzerdrog · 28-01-2021 5:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure, but it the distance is accurate then do you care how they got there?

Some of these devices can throw out strange readings for many of the things read such as CHS, smash factor, ball speed, tempo and distance. However what I was saying is the prgr is meant to be one of the most consistent devices ie all the numbers add up

However I had read that it can over estimate by 3-4 mph on driver swing speed but as discussed this doesn't really matter as long as it is consistent people can still track progress.

Other have came back to they found it very accurate compared to their previous measurements for chs which is great.

GreeBo · 28-01-2021 6:08pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

Some of these devices can throw out strange readings for many of the things read such as CHS, smash factor, ball speed, tempo and distance. However what I was saying is the prgr is meant to be one of the most consistent devices ie all the numbers add up

However I had read that it can over estimate by 3-4 mph on driver swing speed but as discussed this doesn't really matter as long as it is consistent people can still track progress.

Other have came back to they found it very accurate compared to their previous measurements for chs which is great.

Yeah, thats all I was saying.
I don't really care about how it calculated it, as long as it is giving me accurate & consistent distances. (just consistent isnt that useful unless I am only working on adding distance)
Now if I was trying to work on adding distance or swing speed then I would care about its swing speed reporting, but more that it be consistent than it be accurate.

GreeBo · 28-01-2021 6:11pm

IMO the best way to add distance is to work on your technique and its efficiency.
Merely swinging your current swing "faster" (or more likely, "harder") wont really do much, it might mean that your best shots go further but it will most likely mean your average and your bad shots get worse.

Its really hard to add speed if your sequence is off for example, you might add more speed to your turn but becuase its out of sequence with your legs you end up casting and dumping that speed.

Getting the right sequence means that you can apply the gained speed correctly and see a difference.

You do need power, but only as an enabler to swing faster (e.g. stronger core) power in your body thats not transferred into the ball is useless.

monkeybutter · 28-01-2021 6:25pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I mightn't be explaining power properly but you said strength is not a factor in club head speed. This is not true. You are not explaining where club head speed comes from. You even have said that power is in the club head?

The club head is an inanimate object, there is no power in it. The power comes from the golfer and it comes from strength and speed, that is the speed the body moves. The golfer applies the power to the club.

Can you explain where club head speed comes from?

I'm afraid you are getting confused

I never said that

I said club head speed was all that matters

You said it wasnt

You said club head speed was one part of it

Adding strength is another

They are not separate

All that matters is club head speed

Technique strength flexibility technique = club head speed

Anyway like with the distance versus accuracy there is no explaining to some people

ShivasIrons · 28-01-2021 8:05pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

I'm afraid you are getting confused

I never said that

I said club head speed was all that matters

You said it wasnt

You said club head speed was one part of it

Adding strength is another

They are not separate

All that matters is club head speed

Technique strength flexibility technique = club head speed

Anyway like with the distance versus accuracy there is no explaining to some people

I am not confused, I do know what I'm talking about.

You said 'Power is not relevant, only swing speed

You can add all the strength you want if it doesn't increase club head speed then you won't increase distance'

You have said strength and power don't matter and as you have said there is no explaining to some people.

You have not explained how adding strength won't increase swing speed and you haven't explained why power is not relevant.

Adding strength adds power which increases swing speed.

kod12 · 28-01-2021 10:32pm

Has anyone got the PRGR launch monitor and what do they think of it. The reviews have it pretty accurate on swing speed and within a decent % of trackman

Russman · 28-01-2021 11:13pm

kod12 wrote: »

Has anyone got the PRGR launch monitor and what do they think of it. The reviews have it pretty accurate on swing speed and within a decent % of trackman

I have it, and for my purposes it grand. Club speed is very close to what I know my trackman numbers have usually been, and ball speed is again, very close to what I’ve seen using the Top Tracer system in Spawell driving range. I don’t look at the carry numbers as I think they’re estimated or calculated.

Is it 100% ? Probably not, but I sort of think a company as successful as Superspeed wouldn’t be promoting it if it wasn’t at least half decent. Great bang for buck.

kod12 · 28-01-2021 11:26pm

Russman wrote: »

I have it, and for my purposes it grand. Club speed is very close to what I know my trackman numbers have usually been, and ball speed is again, very close to what I’ve seen using the Top Tracer system in Spawell driving range. I don’t look at the carry numbers as I think they’re estimated or calculated.

Is it 100% ? Probably not, but I sort of think a company as successful as Superspeed wouldn’t be promoting it if it wasn’t at least half decent. Great bang for buck.

That’s great just what I wanted to hear as the reviews online can be a bit biased. cheers the for feedback. Looking to get a radar for the super speed sticks so this seems to be the best value one

Russman · 28-01-2021 11:50pm

kod12 wrote: »

That’s great just what I wanted to hear as the reviews online can be a bit biased. cheers the for feedback. Looking to get a radar for the super speed sticks so this seems to be the best value one

That’s exactly what I got mine for and it’s perfect for that. It’s a tiny little thing and easily goes into a pocket - a few evenings in the summer I took it on the course when playing a few holes on my own to see what it was like in real world and it’s grand.

fearruanua · 29-01-2021 11:17am

Russman wrote: »

That’s exactly what I got mine for and it’s perfect for that. It’s a tiny little thing and easily goes into a pocket - a few evenings in the summer I took it on the course when playing a few holes on my own to see what it was like in real world and it’s grand.

Few questions for you Russman as I'm looking to invest.

1. Does it need a certain amount of space in front of the ball? My indoor setup is quite tight. My driver just about clears the net(quilt

:D)on my follow through.

2. How accurate is it with driver swing speed? I have read that some of them are fine for irons but when you go up in speed as you do with driver that things can be a bit off.

3. Would you recommend having a small little tripod for it?

Thank you sir.

Russman · 29-01-2021 12:01pm

fearruanua wrote: »

Few questions for you Russman as I'm looking to invest.

1. Does it need a certain amount of space in front of the ball? My indoor setup is quite tight. My driver just about clears the net(quilt :D)on my follow through.

2. How accurate is it with driver swing speed? I have read that some of them are fine for irons but when you go up in speed as you do with driver that things can be a bit off.

3. Would you recommend having a small little tripod for it?

Thank you sir.

No worries. You place it on the ground behind the ball, the manual says between 3.5 & 5 feet behind the ball, ie looking "down the line" towards the target.

As for accuracy, historically I've always been between around 97/98mph & 102/103mph over the years whenever I've been on Trackman, probably averaged right on the 100mph. Last year the few times I used the PRGR actually hitting balls on the course, as opposed to using the speed sticks, I was getting very similar, late 90s up to 106mph. I put the increase down to the effect of the speed sticks, but it could be just that its slightly varying compared to trackman.
I've no idea about the carry & distance numbers on it, can't imagine they'd be very accurate as I don't think it measures spin.

There's no need for a tripod, just place it on the ground. Its not much bigger than a pocket size pack of tissues. There are some illustrations in the manual of a tripod being used for baseball speed training but no need for golf, in fact, for golf, I'd say it might not even work with a tripod.

Incidentally, I've no connection at all with PRGR or Superspeed Golf, but FWIW Superspeed are making a big play on their social media of the number of tour players collecting the PRGR monitor from them at the Farmer's Insurance Open this week.

Ivefoundgod · 29-01-2021 12:10pm

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon Russman but how did you find the speed sticks? The boredom of lockdown has me eying up the PRGR and speed sticks just to give me something to do. Have you noticed much gains on the PRGR? My thinking was I'd use the PRGR as a baseline and take it from there, that way even if its off from a trackman or skytrak I'd still be able to monitor progress (if any).

Russman · 29-01-2021 12:22pm

Ivefoundgod wrote: »

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon Russman but how did you find the speed sticks? The boredom of lockdown has me eying up the PRGR and speed sticks just to give me something to do. Have you noticed much gains on the PRGR? My thinking was I'd use the PRGR as a baseline and take it from there, that way even if its off from a trackman or skytrak I'd still be able to monitor progress (if any).

They're good.
TBH I used them during the first lockdown and when golf returned in June I spent my first 3 or 4 rounds hitting everything along the ground. I blamed the fact that swinging the sticks 6 inches in the air was to blame so I haven't really used them much since ! I got back to them for a few weeks later in the autumn but then the October lockdown happened.

I did see some gains though. You record your speed each session with the different weights and I definitely saw good progress and it did translate to gains on the course. I didn't play enough golf last year to really get a feel for just how big the on-course gains were.

I've started back using the sticks this week so hopefully this year should see some meaningful gains if we get golf at all !!

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 12:26pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I am not confused, I do know what I'm talking about.

You said 'Power is not relevant, only swing speed

You can add all the strength you want if it doesn't increase club head speed then you won't increase distance'

You have said strength and power don't matter and as you have said there is no explaining to some people.

You have not explained how adding strength won't increase swing speed and you haven't explained why power is not relevant.

Adding strength adds power which increases swing speed.

Strength without the ability to apply it is useless, its akin to your ferrari sitting on the startline wheelspinning while the bicycle pulls away.
Power does not automatically give you more swing speed, how cant it?
You also dont specify what power, I can increase my max bicep curl...is the ball going further? How about my max bench or squat?

We have all seen huge, powerful people who cant hit the ball any distance. They are incredibly strong and powerful but cant create any swing speed. The ball doesnt know what size you are or how strong you are, all it knows is how fast the clubhead is moving.

FixdePitchmark · 29-01-2021 12:40pm

Can someone stick a few equations up - to end debate.

Inanimate objects can apply a force. Force is a function of mass and acceleration.
So I don't know where that is going ?

benny79 · 29-01-2021 1:37pm

Hi Russman,

As Far as the PRGR goes the carry distances and total distances are very accurate.

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 1:40pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Strength without the ability to apply it is useless, its akin to your ferrari sitting on the startline wheelspinning while the bicycle pulls away.
Power does not automatically give you more swing speed, how cant it?
You also dont specify what power, I can increase my max bicep curl...is the ball going further? How about my max bench or squat?

We have all seen huge, powerful people who cant hit the ball any distance. They are incredibly strong and powerful but cant create any swing speed. The ball doesnt know what size you are or how strong you are, all it knows is how fast the clubhead is moving.

Are you saying that if the strong person is weaker they'll have more swing speed? If you take two identical golfers and make one stronger, what happens to the speed of the now stronger golfer?

So, where does clubhead speed come from?

ClutchIt · 29-01-2021 1:43pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Can someone stick a few equations up - to end debate.

Inanimate objects can apply a force. Force is a function of mass and acceleration.
So I don't know where that is going ?

I have a lot of physics / applied maths.

I could get quite technical, but really the only things that affect carry distance are the club head speed, and the efficiency of the transfer of that energy to the ball (quality of contact, type of club used).
(Of course launch angle and spin affect it but these are built in to your club and ball choice, provided solid contact).

Equation
R = 2 * Vx * Vy / g

R = carry distance
Vx = Velocity of ball in horizontal direction
Vy = Velocity of ball in vertical direction
g = acceleration of gravity

The way the velocity is spilt in horizontal & vertical depends on the angle of the club you use.

ClutchIt · 29-01-2021 1:49pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Are you saying that if the strong person is weaker they'll have more swing speed? If you take two identical golfers and make one stronger, what happens to the speed of the now stronger golfer?

So, where does clubhead speed come from?

Doesn't matter if one fella is physically stronger or weaker as long as they can swing it faster.

Stronger people will be able to swing faster in majority of cases, but not always. There is a lot of technique involved obviously.

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 1:52pm

ClutchIt wrote: »

Doesn't matter if one fella is physically stronger or weaker as long as they can swing it faster.

Stronger people will be able to swing faster in majority of cases, but not always. There is a lot of technique involved obviously.

So strength matters?

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 2:16pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Are you saying that if the strong person is weaker they'll have more swing speed? If you take two identical golfers and make one stronger, what happens to the speed of the now stronger golfer?

So, where does clubhead speed come from?

huh?!
I didnt say or imply anything of the sort!

you are saying the a "weak" person will hit the ball further if they get stronger, but its not nearly that simple.
Define exactly what you mean when you say "stronger golfer"?

Clubhead speed comes from compound levers, you dont muscle the club into the ball, the club is not heavy.

Additional strength can be used to increase the amount of speed you can potentially apply, but you are trying to say that power = speed as if its something simple.

If it was that simple then why do the LPGA hit the ball further than most most male golfers?

You can keep getting stronger and yet the ball wont go any further because you are not swinging the clubhead any faster. However I can swing the clubhead faster without getting stronger by improving my swing technique. You will see this on every tee in every course in the world, the guy trying harder and harder to swing "harder" but he is not swinging any faster, often the clubhead is slower.

As I said in my previous post, increasing my bicep curl isnt going to result in the ball going any further, do you disagree?

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 2:19pm

ClutchIt wrote: »

Doesn't matter if one fella is physically stronger or weaker as long as they can swing it faster.

Stronger people will be able to swing faster in majority of cases, but not always. There is a lot of technique involved obviously.

Or, to put it another way, is ShivasIrons really saying that Rory McIlroy is stronger than Hafthor Bjornsson? He must be since he can swing faster and speed is all down to strength, right?:pac:

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 2:44pm

There are two points that are being made in this thread. The first one is that distance matters, increasing distance, even with losing some accuracy, will lead to lower scores. Speed increases distance, so increasing speed is good. 10 yards extra and you'll notice it in your scores, 25 yards extra will lead to a big drop.

The second point was that strength is important, posters have been trying to say that it's not. It is.

The easiest examples to give to show the importance of both is the difference between the LPGA Tour players and the PGA Tour players.

The PGA Tour players are longer and less accurate. Both have good technique. The LPGA players have no chance of competing in a PGA Tour event, in fact they'd do well to make the cut.

This is because they don't have the length, they have accuracy they don't have sufficient length. Why don't they have the length? They are not as strong as the men.

So can someone please explain how accuracy matters more then length and how strength doesn't matter? Also, one shot examples do not prove anything, golf is not based on one shot, it is based on a round and handicaps and world rankings are based on a number of rounds.

There is no need to go into detail about what are the power sources in the golf swing, or what strength training is the most effective.

The points are distance, speed and strength matter.

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 2:48pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There are two points that are being made in this thread. The first one is that distance matters, increasing distance, even with losing some accuracy, will lead to lower scores. Speed increases distance, so increasing speed is good. 10 yards extra and you'll notice it in your scores, 25 yards extra will lead to a big drop.

The second point was that strength is important, posters have been trying to say that it's not. It is.

The easiest examples to give to show the importance of both is the difference between the LPGA Tour players and the PGA Tour players.

The PGA Tour players are longer and less accurate. Both have good technique. The LPGA players have no chance of competing in a PGA Tour event, in fact they'd do well to make the cut.

This is because they don't have the length, they have accuracy they don't have sufficient length. Why don't they have the length? They are not as strong as the men.

So can someone please explain how accuracy matters more then length and how strength doesn't matter? Also, one shot examples do not prove anything, golf is not based on one shot, it is based on a round and handicaps and world rankings are based on a number of rounds.

There is no need to go into detail about what are the power sources in the golf swing, or what strength training is the most effective.

The points are distance, speed and strength matter.

If the sum total of your argument boils down to "because it is" and "because it does" then I think we are done here!:rolleyes:

Again you ignore the examples presented that dont align to your view!
What about the LPGA versus most male golfers?
What about Rory vs power lifters?

You can keep repeating your opinion and ignoring the points everyone else is making, but sooner or later your posts are just going to be dismissed.

FixdePitchmark · 29-01-2021 2:55pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If the sum total of your argument boils down to "because it is" and "because it does" then I think we are done here!:rolleyes:

Again you ignore the examples presented that dont align to your view!
What about the LPGA versus most male golfers?
What about Rory vs power lifters?

You can keep repeating your opinion and ignoring the points everyone else is making, but sooner or later your posts are just going to be dismissed.

Your making great points GreeBo, but you've and outstanding record of ignoring counter arguments yourself

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 3:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If the sum total of your argument boils down to "because it is" and "because it does" then I think we are done here!:rolleyes:

Again you ignore the examples presented that dont align to your view!
What about the LPGA versus most male golfers?
What about Rory vs power lifters?

You can keep repeating your opinion and ignoring the points everyone else is making, but sooner or later your posts are just going to be dismissed.

I'll repeat again, distance is more important then accuracy, speed and strength matter. They are the simple points. Are you saying they don't matter? There have been posts saying they don't.

At no stage have I ever said that club delivery, technique, sequence etc don't matter they do.

What's your point about the LPGA players over the average male golfer? They have better club delivery? If you did look at my posts you will see that I have said that club delivery matters.

What's your point about the strongman versus Rory? Rory has strength, he has sufficient strength. You are going to the fringes to make a point which is not related to the point I'm making.

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 3:30pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I'll repeat again, distance is more important then accuracy, speed and strength matter. They are the simple points. Are you saying they don't matter? There have been posts saying they don't.

I've said many times that you need "enough" speed.

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What's your point about the LPGA players over the average male golfer? They have better club delivery? If you did look at my posts you will see that I have said that club delivery matters.

But you keep saying that strength = speed, I'm showing you that its not that simple, since the LPGA hit the ball further than most men who play golf, despite being weaker than them.

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What's your point about the strongman versus Rory? Rory has strength, he has sufficient strength. You are going to the fringes to make a point which is not related to the point I'm making.

I'm going to the fringes yet your argument is based on the PGA tour, the top what, 0.00001% of golfers?

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 4:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I've said many times that you need "enough" speed.

But you keep saying that strength = speed, I'm showing you that its not that simple, since the LPGA hit the ball further than most men who play golf, despite being weaker than them.

I'm going to the fringes yet your argument is based on the PGA tour, the top what, 0.00001% of golfers?

In this thread, you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect, there is research, evidence and a published book by Mark Broadie to show this.

Strength is a component of speed. An earlier poster said strength and power were irrelevant, just how fast you swing the club was relevant, since they are a component of speed they are not irrelevant.

The point you make about the LPGA versus most male golfers, doesn't counter the strength is important argument. You are trying to say strength isn't important because other things are a component of how far you hit the ball too? I never said they weren't.

The LPGA versus PGA tour example is an easy way to show between two groups of how much strength matters.

ClutchIt · 29-01-2021 5:21pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

In this thread, you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect, there is research, evidence and a published book by Mark Broadie to show this.

Strength is a component of speed. An earlier poster said strength and power were irrelevant, just how fast you swing the club was relevant, since they are a component of speed they are not irrelevant.

The point you make about the LPGA versus most male golfers, doesn't counter the strength is important argument. You are trying to say strength isn't important because other things are a component of how far you hit the ball too? I never said they weren't.

The LPGA versus PGA tour example is an easy way to show between two groups of how much strength matters.

Strength is definitely a component of swing speed.
As both of you agree, it is not the only component.
Surely that is the end of this debate?

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 5:37pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I
The LPGA versus PGA tour example is an easy way to show between two groups of how much strength matters.

Yet the LPGA vs male golfers *isnt* an easy way to show how much it doesnt matter?:rolleyes:

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 5:42pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

In this thread, you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect, there is research, evidence and a published book by Mark Broadie to show this.

So Jamie Sadlowski will lower his handicap, if only he could hit it a bit further?
Same for Rory, DJ, JT, Bubba?

redzerdrog · 29-01-2021 6:44pm

Greebo what exactly are you trying to argue here? I am confused by all the whataboutry

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 7:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yet the LPGA vs male golfers *isnt* an easy way to show how much it doesnt matter?:rolleyes:

So are you saying strength doesn't matter? What are you saying?

The LPGA versus male golfers is a very easy way to show club delivery matters, and it matters a lot. I haven't seen one person say it doesn't.

All your arguments boil down to you finding individual and once off circumstances where you think general principles don't apply.

Russman · 29-01-2021 9:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So Jamie Sadlowski will lower his handicap, if only he could hit it a bit further?
Same for Rory, DJ, JT, Bubba?

To be fair Greebo, those guys aren’t doing all the training they are, to hit it straighter or shorter. Drivers are pretty much maxed out with regulations, so the guys are improving a different component to the distance bit - their bodies. Even going back to Gary Player, some of the tour guys were trying to hit it further. Obviously it’s more in vogue now for whatever reasons. DeChambeau really opened a lot of their eyes to what was possible - granted few will take it to his extremes.

I think, similar to Trackman showing the new ball flight rules are almost the opposite to what was believed and taught for decades, the idea of distance being as important as it is, is a bit of a culture shock for golfers. It probably hasn’t fed into the club game yet but give it time I reckon. Some of the good juniors these days really hit it frightening distances. Obviously you still need a short game and decent course management to score but flat out distance is masking those deficiencies more and more.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 1:01pm

Russman wrote: »

To be fair Greebo, those guys aren’t doing all the training they are, to hit it straighter or shorter. Drivers are pretty much maxed out with regulations, so the guys are improving a different component to the distance bit - their bodies. Even going back to Gary Player, some of the tour guys were trying to hit it further. Obviously it’s more in vogue now for whatever reasons. DeChambeau really opened a lot of their eyes to what was possible - granted few will take it to his extremes.

I think, similar to Trackman showing the new ball flight rules are almost the opposite to what was believed and taught for decades, the idea of distance being as important as it is, is a bit of a culture shock for golfers. It probably hasn’t fed into the club game yet but give it time I reckon. Some of the good juniors these days really hit it frightening distances. Obviously you still need a short game and decent course management to score but flat out distance is masking those deficiencies more and more.

Oh I know that, but ShivasIrons has specifically said
"you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect"

If what they say is correct then the long drive guys would be the best golfers in the world and rory et al would get even better if they could hit the ball further.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 1:03pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So are you saying strength doesn't matter? What are you saying?

The LPGA versus male golfers is a very easy way to show club delivery matters, and it matters a lot. I haven't seen one person say it doesn't.

You keep telling me that more power will deliver more speed, the LPGA shows that this is not always the case.

All your arguments boil down to you finding individual and once off circumstances where you think general principles don't apply.

Erm, your argument boils down to the absolute elite of the game, which is a couple of hundred people on the planet.

When have I given an individual example btw?

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 1:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh I know that, but ShivasIrons has specifically said
"you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect"

If what they say is correct then the long drive guys would be the best golfers in the world and rory et al would get even better if they could hit the ball further.

You are completely misinterpreting this, what this means is that if you take any golfer and increase their distance they will shoot lower scores, not that the longest drivers are the best golfers in the world.

Also Rory would get better if he hit the ball further, but when you're dealing with the best players in the world any improvement they make only gives marginal gains.

For the shorter hitter this is not the case at all, take someone who hits it 180 and get them hitting it 195, 200, or more this will make a big difference to their scores.

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 1:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You keep telling me that more power will deliver more speed, the LPGA shows that this is not always the case.

Erm, your argument boils down to the absolute elite of the game, which is a couple of hundred people on the planet.

When have I given an individual example btw?

How does the LPGA show that more power doesn't deliver more speed? They'd be the perfect group to add power to.

You gave the example of the strongman versus Rory McIlroy, saying because he is stronger he should be better.

My argument boils down to general principles and what research has shown to be true, I have no idea what your argument boils down to.

Club head speed

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