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If the world goes completely vegan

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12467…12

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    #92
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    White Clover wrote: »
    Please quit posting untruths and inaccurate information. It gets tiresome having to correct all the false information presented here.
    Someone commented that farmers shouldn't be posting on these threads. We wouldn't be here if the information posted was truthful and honest.

    Mod note: White Clover, I find the tone of your post to be unnecessarily aggressive. I would draw your attention the following portion of the forum charter:
    This is a forum that caters specifically for vegans and vegetarians, or anyone who prefers to avoid all or certain animal products in their diet. This means that, while others are welcome to post here, the protected view is that of vegans and vegetarians. If you contribute to a thread you are expected to be willing to learn about the issues involved and listen to what is said by members of the community/ies involved.


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    #93
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    White Clover wrote: »
    Please quit posting untruths and inaccurate information. It gets tiresome having to correct all the false information presented here.
    Someone commented that farmers shouldn't be posting on these threads. We wouldn't be here if the information posted was truthful and honest.


    Quote:
    This study determines that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption. If not consumed by livestock, crop residues and by-products could quickly become an environmental burden as the human population grows and consumes more and more processed food. Animals also consume food that could potentially be eaten by people. Grains account for 13% of the global livestock dry matter intake


    http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html


    Hang on, you said:
    On the other hand, when ground is tilled to plant crops, carbon is released
    .

    This is true. Nothing in your quote above contradicts the fact that 40% of the world's grain production is fed to livestock. We wouldn't need so much land under cultivation, and the attendant "crop residues and by-products" if animals weren't being raised for slaughter - why would farmers continue to plant it, if there weren't billions of animals to feed it to?

    Again - your analysis takes no account of the methane that animals produce, the fact that fact that they do indeed consume enormous amounts of grain themselves, or the destruction of carbon sinks (clearing of forests) to produce this feed.

    Here is another quote from the FAO:

    "The meat industry has a marked impact on a general global scale on water, soils, extinction of plants and animals, and consumption of natural resources, and it has a strong impact on global warming”
    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/climatechange/doc/FAO%20report%20executive%20summary.pdf


    which may even be understating the issue a good deal:

    "In the third chapter of the FAO report [1] it is estimated that 18% of global greenhouse gas emissions are caused by the livestock industry. The amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) released to the atmosphere is estimated at approximately 7516 million tons per year [1,3]. According to Goodland and Anhang [5] this estimate is too low. According to their calculations the global livestock industry is responsible for at least 51% of the greenhouse gases emitted to the atmosphere and the amount of carbon dioxide is estimated at 32,564 million tons. This large difference stems partly from the FAO using outdated sources from the years 1964–2001. Nevertheless, even if greenhouse gas emissions are estimated at only 18%, the livestock industry is still the second-largest polluter after the electricity industry, and more polluting than the transportation industry, which contributes approximately 13%"

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6518108/#:~:text=Livestock%20emit%20almost%2064%25%20of,40%25%20of%20methane%20emissions%20worldwide.


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    #94
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,558 ✭✭✭White Clover


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Hang on, you said:

    .

    This is true. Nothing in your quote above contradicts the fact that 40% of the world's grain production is fed to livestock. We wouldn't need so much land under cultivation, and the attendant "crop residues and by-products" if animals weren't being raised for slaughter - why would farmers continue to plant it, if there weren't billions of animals to feed it to?

    Again - your analysis takes no account of the methane that animals produce, the fact that fact that they do indeed consume enormous amounts of grain themselves, or the destruction of carbon sinks (clearing of forests) to produce this feed.

    Here is another quote from the FAO:

    "The meat industry has a marked impact on a general global scale on water, soils, extinction of plants and animals, and consumption of natural resources, and it has a strong impact on global warming”
    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/climatechange/doc/FAO%20report%20executive%20summary.pdf


    which may even be understating the issue a good deal:

    "In the third chapter of the FAO report [1] it is estimated that 18% of global greenhouse gas emissions are caused by the livestock industry. The amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) released to the atmosphere is estimated at approximately 7516 million tons per year [1,3]. According to Goodland and Anhang [5] this estimate is too low. According to their calculations the global livestock industry is responsible for at least 51% of the greenhouse gases emitted to the atmosphere and the amount of carbon dioxide is estimated at 32,564 million tons. This large difference stems partly from the FAO using outdated sources from the years 1964–2001. Nevertheless, even if greenhouse gas emissions are estimated at only 18%, the livestock industry is still the second-largest polluter after the electricity industry, and more polluting than the transportation industry, which contributes approximately 13%"

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6518108/#:~:text=Livestock%20emit%20almost%2064%25%20of,40%25%20of%20methane%20emissions%20worldwide.

    Your information above is from 2006, it has been disproved a long time ago. My original point still stands.


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    #95
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I've seen farmers on here saying "the crops grown aren't suitable for human consumption" a few times. It's grown to feed animals not humans! That land could either be left alone to be wild or could be used to grow human food.


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    #96
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Look kinda off topic but can we agree to official EU stats in future. It's to easy to find information that confirms bias but may be lacking in facts. That works for both sides


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    #97
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    White Clover wrote: »
    Your information above is from 2006, it has been disproved a long time ago. My original point still stands.

    The second paper is from 2019; also, I'm not sure if you understand how the scientific method works.


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    #98
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,558 ✭✭✭White Clover


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    The second paper is from 2019; also, I'm not sure if you understand how the scientific method works.

    Its a survey of 361 students:)


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    #99
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    White Clover wrote: »
    Its a survey of 361 students:)


    Here is the IPCC calling on people to eat less meat:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02409-7

    Only 100 experts in that one, sorry - hope that suffices.


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    #100
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Also I thought it was 9 to 12 % ghg from livestock


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    #101
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Grasslands and grazing systems can ( not always) also be enormous carbon sinks,
    Plus plantation forestry can ( again not always ) can be net carbon emitters ,
    (I'd love to see more forestry and agro forestry )
    Equating feed lot beef to grazed system doesn't take much notice of the differences Involvled ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #102
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Grasslands and grazing systems can ( not always) also be enormous carbon sinks,

    Quite possibly - but again, this takes no account of the methane that grazing cattle produce (methane is 20x more potent than CO2)

    Also - and this is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, perhaps one farmers will know, they are quite responsive on this thread - are there any cattle that are actually 100% grass-fed, that don't consume at least some degree of meal as part of their diet?

    Because, if they are in fact eating imported meal, a lot of these arguments about grasslands being a carbon sink, and the supposed ills of tillage, go out the window.


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    #103
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    We do import a lot of feed from all over the world, it is fed to chicken and pigs and cattle

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30832683.html

    I also dont know if there's such thing as beef produced from 100% grass and locally grown feed in Ireland.


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    #104
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Quite possibly - but again, this takes no account of the methane that grazing cattle produce (methane is 20x more potent than CO2)

    Also - and this is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, perhaps one farmers will know, they are quite responsive on this thread - are there any cattle that are actually 100% grass-fed, that don't consume at least some degree of meal as part of their diet?

    Because, if they are in fact eating imported meal, a lot of these arguments about grasslands being a carbon sink, and the supposed ills of tillage, go out the window.

    No I wouldn't think so. They would be getting feed, some more some less. Not all feed is imported. And no I ain't looking up the numbers for you. I am sure you can find them.


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    #105
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Gary kk wrote: »
    No I wouldn't think so. They would be getting feed, some more some less. Not all feed is imported. And no I ain't looking up the numbers for you. I am sure you can find them.

    Well, another poster claimed that:
    On the other hand, when ground is tilled to plant crops, carbon is released.

    According to TradingEconomics, Ireland's 2nd biggest import from Brazil ($66m) is cereals - undoubtedly some of this is for human consumption, but presumably some of it is for animal feed.

    I'm not sure how clearing rainforest in Brazil, planting cereals, shipping them to Ireland and feeding them to Irish cattle is factored in to the calculations of Irish grassland that is used for animal-grazing being a super-duper carbon sink, but perhaps other posters who are more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in.


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    #106
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    A lot is byproduct. What would otherwise be waste is feed to livestock. Most is not grown specifically for feed.

    Someone makes plant oil or some soy products.Has biomass left over looks over the fence hey you there I got this do you the animals will eat it? Sure one to find out. Oh look they love it. Ok give €€ and you can have more.


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    #107
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Well, another poster claimed that:



    According to TradingEconomics, Ireland's 2nd biggest import from Brazil ($66m) is cereals - undoubtedly some of this is for human consumption, but presumably some of it is for animal feed.

    I'm not sure how clearing rainforest in Brazil, planting cereals, shipping them to Ireland and feeding them to Irish cattle is factored in to the calculations of Irish grassland that is used for animal-grazing being a super-duper carbon sink, but perhaps other posters who are more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in.

    Where are you getting these oversimplified story's from? As I said in an earlier post if we could agree to work statistics coming from the EU maybe it would help clean up the clutter.


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    #108
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    A lot is byproduct. What would otherwise be waste is feed to livestock. Most is not grown specifically for feed.

    Someone makes plant oil or some soy products.Has biomass left over looks over the fence hey you there I got this do you the animals will eat it? Sure one to find out. Oh look they love it. Ok give €€ and you can have more.

    I've only seen this theory of it being waste product for human products on boards.ie tbh. I'm not convinced.


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    #109
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Where are you getting these oversimplified story's from? As I said in an earlier post if we could agree to work statistics coming from the EU maybe it would help clean up the clutter.

    I know; and given there are statistics that don't come from the EU that could be germane to the issue, and given that you aren't a mod, I decided to ignore it.

    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production" - so I don't think that it is all handy, abundant by-product.

    From V & V favourite, the FAO - http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf


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    #110
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I've only seen this theory of it being waste product for human products on boards.ie tbh. I'm not convinced.

    I am sure there is some evidence out there in the greater parts of the world.


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    #111
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    I know; and given there are statistics that don't come from the EU that could be germane to the issue, and given that you aren't a mod, I decided to ignore it.

    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production" - so I don't think that it is all handy, abundant by-product.

    From V & V favourite, the FAO - http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

    Fair enough it was just a suggestion. Goodnight now got to hit hay.


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    #112
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Fair enough it was just a suggestion. Goodnight now got to hit hay.

    Air-freighted from Brazil, no doubt...

    - joke, joke - goodnight to you, too :)


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    #113
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    The world isn't ever going to go vegan but more and more people in affluent countries are going to eat less meat as time goes on, it's looking that way anyway.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/tesco-sets-300-per-cent-sales-target-for-plant-based-alternatives-to-meat

    When you see the likes of this news one would think they're responding to consumer demands. The Denny's meat free products and Beyond Burger and the Aldi meat free burgers and chicken burgers are sold out pretty much every time I'm in these shops, they're hard to get so I usually buy loads when I can and put them in the freezer.
    The market will keep growing.


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    #114
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    The world isn't ever going to go vegan but more and more people in affluent countries are going to eat less meat as time goes on, it's looking that way anyway.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/tesco-sets-300-per-cent-sales-target-for-plant-based-alternatives-to-meat

    When you see the likes of this news one would think they're responding to consumer demands. The Denny's meat free products and Beyond Burger and the Aldi meat free burgers and chicken burgers are sold out pretty much every time I'm in these shops, they're hard to get so I usually buy loads when I can and put them in the freezer.
    The market will keep growing.

    Well like lets be honest some of those taste nice.


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    #115
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vegan-diet-nutrition-bones-study-b1760162.html

    There would be plenty of opportunity in orthopaedics.


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    #116
    richie123
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭richie123


    Jjameson wrote: »
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vegan-diet-nutrition-bones-study-b1760162.html

    There would be plenty of opportunity in orthopaedics.

    I saw that interesting one now


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    #117
    Tilikum17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    richie123 wrote: »
    I saw that interesting one now

    “However, data on whether the fractures were caused by poor bone health or accidents was not available”

    Great study lol.


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    #118
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/news/saturated-fats-limit-unnecessary-journal-of-american-college-of-cardiology?fbclid=IwAR2y_14roFvLHYtdEjW3vTwwmcmS8qU8NyoY8pid_RLpQxEEUQU4231cLG0


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    #119
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Tilikum17 wrote: »
    “However, data on whether the fractures were caused by poor bone health or accidents was not available”

    Great study lol.

    So either their bone are more brittle or they are more accident prone!!


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    #120
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,981 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    It's like whack a troll in this forum. Whack one and another takes Its place

    Edit: ah just seen the cavalry has been called in the farming forum. Makes sense


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    #121
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Unearthly wrote: »
    It's like whack a troll in this forum. Whack one and another takes Its place

    I'm sure they'd be very welcoming if we went to the farming forum and started telling them how processed meats are heavily linked to bowel and other forms of cancer. But of course I'm sure they only eat locally sourced clean meat from an animal that has been put to sleep in the most humane way possible.


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