The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

all about the mane · 08-05-2020 11:21pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.

Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.

The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

I am not in receipt of the payment, and no one related to me is either. I think it’s a great idea. We need to keep the economy firing and I’d rather see these people have it than to give it to the banks etc so we can plat that trickle down charade.
And yes, I will be home be of the ones paying for it. But that’s fine. I’m lucky enough to still have a decent job. Glad to see others getting a leg up.

Gavlor · 08-05-2020 11:23pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Germany and the other major creditors within the euro zone have a vested interest here. They know that long dated low rate Finance is the only way out of this and in effect the only way for the eurozone to survive long term. Survival of the eu & eurozone is far more important to Germany than their debt ceiling.

Sam Quentin · 08-05-2020 11:37pm

Why in God's name would anyone publicly say/admit that they want people to suffer financial ruin because our country was locked down by a World wide pandemic,.and we now have no income. Like why would you wish that on anyone!?
If it must be paid back,then so be it. I think most are so appreciative of it and could not fault the Government for making such a move. One person I know has told me they would gladly pay 50€ a month when he's up and working again. He doesn't know anything about it being repaid and it was just an of the cuff remark.

satguy · 08-05-2020 11:50pm

Some say that,, this will all need to be paid back after this pandemic is over.

But I think we should make the banks pay back what they got in 08 first,, some of them are still tax free even today.
Maybe if the banks pay us back,, the Irish people might not have to pay higher tax.

Why should we pay extra tax when even the Former Fine Gael Head Strategist was having his pay paid into a bank offshore,, must be great to live in Ireland Tax Free..

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/frank-flannery-unable-to-explain-documents-on-250-000-deposit-1.2597000

Happy Days.. (for some)

08-05-2020 11:51pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Tbf the way the EU and ecb left italy high and dry,when they needed help most

I couldnt fault italians for wanting out,whats point of an union,if it cant help its weakest members

kippy · 09-05-2020 12:10am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Germany really wont have a choice if they want to see the Euro and Eurozone survive.
Large scale debt restructuring and/or writeoffs are the only way to save the Euro and most likely the European project.

Plumbthedepths · 09-05-2020 12:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tbf the way the EU and ecb left italy high and dry,when they needed help most

I couldnt fault italians for wanting out,whats point of an union,if it cant help its weakest members

The sight of Russian/Cuban/Chinese planes on Italian runways spurred the EU to find some forgotten Solidarity.

alta stare · 09-05-2020 12:31am

I am one of those receiving the 350 and i for one am very grateful for it. Does it mean i want to stay out of work hell no. The boredom alone is killing me and iv been doing my best to keep busy.

If the payment to people was any less there would be way more people in serious trouble. At least the 350 helped that little bit more so id applaud the government on that one. Now they really need to kick start our economy again and get people off the 350 and while they are it they need to go after the long time dolers money too.

Im sure when us that choose to do a days work go back to paying our taxes we will get hit with even more tax after this years budget so why cant those in powers cut the money of those who choose to sit on their holes all the time.

castle2012 · 09-05-2020 12:34am

I work as a regional manager for a large retail wholesale group. We had 0 Jobs advertised 4 weeks ago, today we have 78 jobs advertised. We have had no applications. Furthermore all this week I'm dealing with stores with staffing problems, Every case the part time staff are refusing to come back and are asking to be let go, as the with the social covid payment there better off.
Note the part time staff only did 10-15 hours a week prior to covid-19. But are now on €350 per week.

FVP3 · 09-05-2020 12:34am

GazzaL wrote: »

I doubt the increasing numbers of people that won't have jobs to go back when the country reopens will share that sentiment.

She didnt express any sentiment?

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

They won't have to refuse. A good few cafes and restaurants will not reopen after this debacle anyway.

I think they will survive alright, people will probably spend more on a night out in smaller groups.

FVP3 · 09-05-2020 12:35am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Its precisely what a damn financial union should be, and should always have been.

alta stare · 09-05-2020 12:40am

castle2012 wrote: »

I work as a regional manager for a large retail wholesale group. We had 0 Jobs advertised 4 weeks ago, today we have 78 jobs advertised. We have had no applications. Furthermore all this week I'm dealing with stores with staffing problems, Every case the part time staff are refusing to come back and are asking to be let go, as the with the social covid payment there better off.
Note the part time staff only did 10-15 hours a week prior to covid-19. But are now on €350 per week.

A chap i know was telling me one of his relatives worked a handful of hours a week and usually comes out with no more than 80 euro a week and she was let go because of covid19, now she gets the 350. What truth is in that i dont know but i wouldn't be surprised if it is true.

mea_k · 09-05-2020 12:41am

Ha ha ha, I personally know someone who worked one day a week.
Now receiving 350 e....living at home no bills to pay.

RandomViewer · 09-05-2020 12:42am

sydthebeat wrote: »

The premise of the thread is obvious.

Its a shinners reaction to the kicking Mary lou got yesterday in the Dail.

I don't think you'll find any SF people calling for the Covid payment to be cut and it was Varadker who ended up with egg on his face whe dopey Owen did what Leo accused SF of doing, he's still confusing Stormont with Westminster too, Be funny when he asks Sammy Wilson about the weather in Brighton

RandomViewer · 09-05-2020 12:44am

mea_k wrote: »

Ha ha ha, I personally know someone who worked one day a week.
Now receiving 350 e....living at home no bills to pay.

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

RandomViewer · 09-05-2020 12:57am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Whatever Fred is, he ain't a Shinner. Fred was appalled the commemoration for the RIC/ Black&Tans was cancelled.

My notion is that Fred is a lackey in the frap room, rather dull guy ,bit of a nerd, poor personal hygiene but can work a keyboard okay, needs attention, not an alpha male, Be half way through the Greek alphabet till we reach what he is, anyway Fred is getting nervous, defence of the party is getting stale, people are bored with the 2 V's ,Varadker and the Virus so sad under pressure Fred decides to attack the people whose jobs have been lost to the lockdown, no fault of theirs but Fred know the more right wing wanxxx the more likely of the frap room bonus, twit probably not on much more than minimum wage himself

splinter65 · 09-05-2020 8:22am

RandomViewer wrote: »

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

If you were/are a student and working 1/2 days a week then you couldn’t sign for the other days because your a full time student.
If you lost your job because of covid then you are entitled to the payment.

Wanderer78 · 09-05-2020 8:29am

Fred Cryton wrote:

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

Fcuked up! This could be seen as a kind of helicopter money trial, I. E. Putting money directly into people's hands, rather than the usual methods, so that they spend it into the economy in order to stimulate it. This potentially could be one of the most economically radical things an Irish conservative government has ever done, even bloody trump is doing this now!

893bet · 09-05-2020 8:29am

alta stare wrote: »

A chap i know was telling me one of his relatives worked a handful of hours a week and usually comes out with no more than 80 euro a week and she was let go because of covid19, now she gets the 350. What truth is in that i dont know but i wouldn't be surprised if it is true.

It is true.

The scheme was rushed in. The man power and it would have taken to try and not make it a flat rate payment was too great and the need at the time for action was too urgent.

Ideally the payment would have been calculated over a reference period (say the 4 weeks prior to the lockdown) and you get 80% of salary up to a max of 350.

That would have lead to weeks and weeks of waiting lists etc.

Government can’t win! That’s a fact!

aido79 · 09-05-2020 8:54am

BoatMad wrote: »

Masters are just a little up from undergraduate , they know very little

As the saying goes.."Never confuse education with intelligence "

Jucifer · 09-05-2020 9:02am

893bet wrote: »

It is true.

The scheme was rushed in. The man power and it would have taken to try and not make it a flat rate payment was too great and the need at the time for action was too urgent.

Ideally the payment would have been calculated over a reference period (say the 4 weeks prior to the lockdown) and you get 80% of salary up to a max of 350.

That would have lead to weeks and weeks of waiting lists etc.

Government can’t win! That’s a fact!

I think this is a very good point. If everyone was a PAYE worker in a single job, being paid weekly/monthly on a regular basis it would have been easier to implement a relative income support measure.

However, employment is a lot more complex and people would have been waiting a lot longer to have applications processed. It also may have been impossible for many to get the necessary proof of income due to businesses being shut and services curtailed.

I just hope there is some sort of stimulus when thing everything reopens otherwise it could be quite a sluggish recovery if income support is rolled back before the economy recovers.

09-05-2020 9:03am

satguy wrote: »

Some say that,, this will all need to be paid back after this pandemic is over.

But I think we should make the banks pay back what they got in 08 first,, some of them are still tax free even today.
Maybe if the banks pay us back,, the Irish people might not have to pay higher tax.

Why should we pay extra tax when even the Former Fine Gael Head Strategist was having his pay paid into a bank offshore,, must be great to live in Ireland Tax Free..

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/frank-flannery-unable-to-explain-documents-on-250-000-deposit-1.2597000

Happy Days.. (for some)

08 is the past. It’s gone. Forget it and move on. This pandemic is the current reality. Emergency measures were needed.
Try walking facing forward. You’ll make your way easier than constantly looking over your shoulder.

boring accountant · 09-05-2020 9:14am

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

While I tend to agree with this view it’s enormously condescending to imply the OP doesn’t understand economics.

He/she very rightly pointed out the fact that people will be unwilling to go back to work in low wage jobs and give up their 350 a week and there will be a lack of political will to pull the rug out from under these people. This is a major welfare trap and it will take a politician with balls of steel to get this right. Do you know anyone like this?

is_that_so · 09-05-2020 9:19am

boring accountant wrote: »

While I tend to agree with this view it’s enormously condescending to imply the OP doesn’t understand economics.

He/she very rightly pointed out the fact that people will be unwilling to go back to work in low wage jobs and give up their 350 a week and there will be a lack of political will to pull the rug out from under these people. This is a major welfare trap and it will take a politician with balls of steel to get this right. Do you know anyone like this?

This payment was always going to be time-limited, but costly. It's still the right call IMO. It has already been suggested that anyone who "refuses" to go back to work will be knocked off it. You'd still expect a whole lot of people will remain on JSB/JSA after all of this.

Akrasia · 09-05-2020 9:21am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This is number of part time workers in the economy who earned less than 350 a week pre-crisis. Publicly available information, you shouldn't have to ask. You should have looked it up yourself.

Do you use your masters in economics to work for loan sharks or vulture funds?

Have you ever heard of Keynes or did you waste your degree only reading nonsense like Hayek and Milton Friedman

The absolutely worst thing we could do now is to restrict the money supply and force people to borrow for day to day expenses. The 2008 crash was a liquidity crisis, we need the ECB and Irish Central Bank to flood the place with money to counteract the deflation we are facing, and I think it’s 1000 times better to bail out the ordinary workers than to do what the Yanks have gone and give trillions to the big corporations so they can buy their own shares back off the billionaires and hedge funds

Giving poor people an extra few hundred euros for a few weeks won’t break the economy. Deflation will.

In the global perspective, we also need to consider the impact this crisis will have on developing countries, they could be absolutely wiped out with debt after this, we need to very seriously look at a debt jubilee in the next few years

Of course you might disagree if you think the purpose of economic activity is to facilitate a tiny percentage of the population getting ludicrously wealthy at the expense of everyone else...

salmocab · 09-05-2020 9:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

08 is the past. It’s gone. Forget it and move on. This pandemic is the current reality. Emergency measures were needed.
Try walking facing forward. You’ll make your way easier than constantly looking over your shoulder.

To be fair we need to look at the past to not make the same mistakes. Only an idiot would forget the past when planning for the future. Your right about the current situation the measures were needed and to be fair were rolled out quickly.

mea_k · 09-05-2020 9:27am

RandomViewer wrote: »

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

They are not signing on as in full time education.

09-05-2020 9:33am

salmocab wrote: »

To be fair we need to look at the past to not make the same mistakes. Only an idiot would forget the past when planning for the future. Your right about the current situation the measures were needed and to be fair were rolled out quickly.

True. But constantly trying to reinvent the wheel while blaming one group for a decision taken, rightly or wrongly, isn’t very healthy. By all means learn from the past, but move forward and embrace the future.

nigeldaniel · 09-05-2020 9:33am

As an FG supporter people might be surprised to hear me say that the day of a universal wage for all is encroaching. It may take another 10+ years or so but it's becoming an issue that will not go away. The main reason being, soon there will not be enough work-related jobs for the numbers living here and unless the world goes into a vast population decline everyone else will have the same issue. It is also a point to note that welfare-related money is mostly spent in the local economy, to my mind anyway, this, in turn means a fair amount goes back to the government in a number of ways. Think of Credit Unions and you are not too far away for my point.

ednwireland · 09-05-2020 9:39am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

just as bad as McWilliams then .

US2 · 09-05-2020 9:43am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do you know what 'temporary measure' means?

Oh ya. Like USC was a temporary measure. We will have a new "temporary messaure" deducted from our wages when this is all over

is_that_so · 09-05-2020 9:46am

US2 wrote: »

Oh ya. Like USC was a temporary measure. We will have a new "temporary messaure" deducted from our wages when this is all over

I think you would describe USC as an accidental tax but a perfect tax in many ways as almost nobody can avoid it. It may impact our pockets but it delivers €4bn to the exchequer, simply through our being employed.

willbur · 09-05-2020 9:53am

Something had to be done ,it was next to impossible to separate the people that needed the 350 and those that
Just jumped on the merry go round ,but they will eventually trace the people when they have to sign on for unemployment assistance when this special payment is over , they will have to prove where they worked and how many hours a week they where in employment before the lock down , it will then come to light they where over paid the benefits
On another note I am lucky to be still working as a third row front line ,I have been off weekends and bank holidays which have been so boring I can only imagine what the rest of you are going through
The ironic thing is on Thursday last my salary didn't appear in my bank account so waited till Friday still no sign got my details by post on the Friday and low and behold all my salary was deducted as income tax
Clearly an error , but would you believe I can't get intouch
With either my payroll people not answering the phones , or indeed the revenue tried both online still no reply
Did something not believe a mistake had been made to take all my money with just checking first it could of caused problem,s for my direct debit,s if there hadn't been sufficient to cover them

Pkiernan · 09-05-2020 10:05am

The IRA party wants it to be permanent.

I happen to think it was a good idea, but needs to end soon.

coolshannagh28 · 09-05-2020 10:20am

boring accountant wrote: »

While I tend to agree with this view it’s enormously condescending to imply the OP doesn’t understand economics.

He/she very rightly pointed out the fact that people will be unwilling to go back to work in low wage jobs and give up their 350 a week and there will be a lack of political will to pull the rug out from under these people. This is a major welfare trap and it will take a politician with balls of steel to get this right. Do you know anyone like this?

Already having an impact , businesses will be unable to open because of this as staff hold out on the payment .

09-05-2020 10:28am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Already having an impact , businesses will be unable to open because of this as staff hold out on the payment .

Source?

It’s a temporary welfare payment. When businesses reopen staff will not be eligible for this payment and will have to apply for unemployment benefits or assistance if they decide not to return to work.

is_that_so · 09-05-2020 10:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

Source?

It’s a temporary welfare payment. When businesses reopen staff will not be eligible for this payment and will have to apply for unemployment benefits or assistance if they decide not to return to work.

Taxable temporary payment.:)

weldoninhio · 09-05-2020 10:38am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do you know what 'temporary measure' means?

Does it mean USC?? That’s temporary too isn’t it??

coolshannagh28 · 09-05-2020 10:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

Source?

It’s a temporary welfare payment. When businesses reopen staff will not be eligible for this payment and will have to apply for unemployment benefits or assistance if they decide not to return to work.

The payment is mooted to continue after the 12 weeks , in my local town several businesses (food)could be open but are not for this reason as staff are happy to stay off and receive the payment.

Jimmy Garlic · 09-05-2020 10:46am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Source?

It’s a temporary welfare payment. When businesses reopen staff will not be eligible for this payment and will have to apply for unemployment benefits or assistance if they decide not to return to work.

If more than half the businesses closed now survive after this fear porn stunt it will be a miracle.

09-05-2020 10:58am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The payment is mooted to continue after the 12 weeks , in my local town several businesses (food)could be open but are not for this reason as staff are happy to stay off and receive the payment.

What nonsense. If a business is capable of reopening, then their staff are not entitled to this payment. No business is going to let their business go down the pan like this.

KyussB · 09-05-2020 11:04am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

Haha - yea and I've a masters in theoretical physics, and am an astronaut.

coolshannagh28 · 09-05-2020 11:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

What nonsense. If a business is capable of reopening, then their staff are not entitled to this payment. No business is going to let their business go down the pan like this.

Have manners , this will be an ongoing problem , there is no compulsion on staff to return to work when there is a health risk as delineated by the government payment and a business cannot force employees to work ; the primary reason for the payment in the first place .

Balmed Out · 09-05-2020 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

What nonsense. If a business is capable of reopening, then their staff are not entitled to this payment. No business is going to let their business go down the pan like this.

Social distancing will make many businesses impossible to run a profit and they would probably prefer to remain mothballed.

The_Brood · 09-05-2020 11:07am

The question is why was nothing given to the working poor or lower middle class? Even if not the full 350 amount, at least something? They decided to give 350 to people not working, but a big fat 0 to those working away and struggling to meet expenses. They do understand that not everyone working is on a software engineer salary?

09-05-2020 11:09am

Balmed Out wrote: »

Social distancing will make many businesses impossible to run a profit and they would probably prefer to remain mothballed.

Then that is the choice of the business. Not the employees.
No doubt many businesses are running at a loss at the moment, especially shops having to take on extra staff to ensure social distancing. My local Tesco seems to have doubled its workforce. All tills manned and numerous workers on the floor filling orders for home delivery or click and collect.

salmocab · 09-05-2020 11:13am

The_Brood wrote: »

The question is why was nothing given to the working poor or lower middle class? Even if not the full 350 amount, at least something? They decided to give 350 to people not working, but a big fat 0 to those working away and struggling to meet expenses. They do understand that not everyone working is on a software engineer salary?

I’m not sure what your suggesting here, do you mean people who didn’t lose their jobs should have got something?

cameramonkey · 09-05-2020 11:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

What nonsense. If a business is capable of reopening, then their staff are not entitled to this payment. No business is going to let their business go down the pan like this.

I have a business that employs many people who who are on the payment.
The day the 350 was announced some of the full time staff said that they were worried about covid and didnt want to come to work. They were being paid a lot more then 350 a week but were worried about their health so they were gone. We then closed and it was two week before we could get enough staff to reopen. We lost many part time staff who would only have been working maybe 10 hours a week or less as they are full time student, they are now on 350 and dont want to work as they can study and receive the payment. As I say we are now reopened but running on reduced staff and opening hours with many of the staff at home on the 350.

I think it is fair enough to give people an option if they wanted to isolate and not risk their families and their own health , also if I was a student working part time I would grab the 350 and stay at home studying.

Jucifer · 09-05-2020 11:18am

Akrasia wrote: »

Do you use your masters in economics to work for loan sharks or vulture funds?

Have you ever heard of Keynes or did you waste your degree only reading nonsense like Hayek and Milton Friedman

The absolutely worst thing we could do now is to restrict the money supply and force people to borrow for day to day expenses. The 2008 crash was a liquidity crisis, we need the ECB and Irish Central Bank to flood the place with money to counteract the deflation we are facing, and I think it’s 1000 times better to bail out the ordinary workers than to do what the Yanks have gone and give trillions to the big corporations so they can buy their own shares back off the billionaires and hedge funds

Giving poor people an extra few hundred euros for a few weeks won’t break the economy. Deflation will.

In the global perspective, we also need to consider the impact this crisis will have on developing countries, they could be absolutely wiped out with debt after this, we need to very seriously look at a debt jubilee in the next few years

Of course you might disagree if you think the purpose of economic activity is to facilitate a tiny percentage of the population getting ludicrously wealthy at the expense of everyone else...

While I tend to agree with most of what your points, I am less certain on the debt jubilee point. A lot of pension funds of ordinary workers would be heavily weighted towards debt. I would hope emerging/developing government debt would be a relatively small proportion of that but there are implications for ordinary people for any policies and not just the very wealthy.

Lundstram · 09-05-2020 11:19am

The_Brood wrote: »

The question is why was nothing given to the working poor or lower middle class? Even if not the full 350 amount, at least something? They decided to give 350 to people not working, but a big fat 0 to those working away and struggling to meet expenses. They do understand that not everyone working is on a software engineer salary?

I'm still working away, have had more overtime actually. Saving a lot more than usual, price of diesel has gone down, no nights out, no holidays, no takeaways, no cinema, etc.

I think there's a lot of employed people in my situation right now. No traffic on the roads so it's a pleasure driving in and home, and it's good for the head to be working.

If your employer doesn't reward you in some way for working during the pandemic then take it up with them, don't expect reward from an already over-stretched socal welfare.

The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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