Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP

Edgware · 24-07-2020 11:26am

doggerland wrote: »

I think sports people from more than 20 years ago, don't count.

People harp on about Christy Ring, let's be honest with todays training and effort, he'd never come close to matching any decent player from a top team. Not his fault.

Christy Ring, Jimmy Doyle, Eddie Keher would wipe the eye of any of the robots of the present time. Whingers that cant do anything without getting the services of their psychologist, dietician or motivator.

eagle eye · 24-07-2020 11:26am

partyguinness wrote:

Like the school bully who is all mouth in front of an audience but a very quiet boy in private.

Well I've met both of them many times and I can tell you that Mick McCarthy is a gentleman and has been his whole career. Roy Keane was brash and ill-tempered during his football career.
I'm not saying that Keane was wrong about the set up in Saipan just to be clear but as regards personalities I know which one was calm and balanced and which one was not.

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 11:31am

Edgware wrote: »

Christy Ring, Jimmy Doyle, Eddie Keher would wipe the eye of any of the robots of the present time. Whingers that cant do anything without getting the services of their psychologist, dietician or motivator.

Yeah but it is all relative. Have you watched GAA footage from the 60s and 70s and even into the late 80s?

It is the modern day equivalent of a bad Junior C game.

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 11:32am

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I've met both of them many times and I can tell you that Mick McCarthy is a gentleman and has been his whole career. Roy Keane was brash and ill-tempered during his football career.
I'm not saying that Keane was wrong about the set up in Saipan just to be clear but as regards personalities I know which one was calm and balanced and which one was not.

I agree. Comparing McCarthy to a school bully is a tad harsh but it was more to illustrate that McCarthy was only prepared to 'confront' Keane in front of an audience rather than in private.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 24-07-2020 11:34am

partyguinness wrote: »

Keane's leadership and captain qualities lay out on the pitch where ultimately it mattered. I think any other player would have been embarrassed to captain the team.

Personally I wouldn't necessarily criticse McCarthy for that. TBH it would have been laughable not to give Keane the captaincy. Once he gave it him from the outset after Townsend retired he couldnt just take it off him after a few years because their relationship was cold.

Keane was captaining the team of players rather than McCarthy himself. In fact not having Keane as captain would have been seen as a blatant insult by McCarthy. Keane's role was to do the business on the pitch and the players were fully committed to Keane.

But their relationship didn't become cold over the years... it was always cold from the get-go. They never really liked each other.

I agree that Keane was the stand out candidate for the captaincy. But there were other good leaders there too, and McCarthy had a better relationship with some of those guys.

I think McCarthy gave it to him, because he had to... not because he genuinely wanted him as his captain.

It's a debatable one I suppose.

The team spirit in those Ireland squads were so good going back from the Charlton days, that even Keane's moodiness didn't necessarily cause much of a problem most of the time... it's actually very strange that everything exploded at that moment. Keane had been complaining about poor standards for years.

That's why you need a strong bond with your captain imo, because the gap between the two of them meant that McCarthy perhaps misjudged exactly what was going on in Keane's mind... He was ready to explode, and McCarthy foolishly pulled the pin out of that grenade at the worst possible moment!

24-07-2020 11:35am

italodisco wrote: »

I hate to say it, as I can't stand him, but conor mcgregor would certainly be up there on the list

Fuuuuck no, he wouldn't.

Tomaldo · 24-07-2020 11:36am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

McCarthy's decision to challenge Keane in front of the entire squad (even the young lads), begs the question about why he even picked Keane as his captain in the first place. They never had a strong relationship that you need to have with your captain - even Ferguson had a pretty solid working relationship with Keane right up until the end when they fell out.

He clearly didn't like Keane going back to when they played together under Charlton. So why pick him as your captain? He must have felt under pressure to give it to him, because he was the star Man Utd player... but this again shows poor leadership from McCarthy, because he should have had the balls to pick someone who he had a better working relationship with.

Did Keane not say he was going home before that infamous 'Paul Daniels' meeting and Sir Alex and Michael Kennedy or both advised him to stay, can anyone clarify why he didn't play in the play-off (2nd leg) with Iran

24-07-2020 11:40am

tritriagain wrote: »

I remember at the time there was a newspaper article about ordinary peoples opinions about what happened in Saipan. The one that made the most sense to me was from a night club owner who said that if his best bar man threw a hissy fit on new years Eve , his busiest night of the year, he would leave it go until the night was over.. and give him a bollocking the next day. McCarthy should have waited til after wc and then said whatever was on his mind. A very poor management decision , which was pre-planned, irrespective of Keane's actions.

Except the knock on effect to the rest of the staff. One sees it fly, gets the hump and it rolls on and on.

The WC was also not one night and it wasn't a barman, it was your captain.

They had it out as a team because it effects the team. It was a chance for all opinions but sadly for Roy, those opinions didn't back him. They said it themselves afterwards.

The team played better afterwards because there was no fracture. Keane left the team because the team didn't agree with his personal opinion.

He left United similarly, Ipswich, Sunderland, even cobh I believe had issues.

24-07-2020 11:42am

partyguinness wrote: »

I like McCarthy but it really was not a good decision to call that meeting. As you said Keane and himself had a tense relationship already. What was McCarthy hoping to achieve I have no idea.

McCarthy
"Jaysus have you seen this? Keane fcking mouthing of. I am pissed off."
Assistant:
"Best ignore it boss. You know what he is like. Let's just get on with the job. Slag him off in your book later."
McCarthy:
"I know what would be great idea. I realise we are at the WC and **** is getting serious so I am going to call a squad meeting. I am going to put our hero on the spot in front of everyone and ask him to explain himself."
Assistant:
"Are you sure boss? I don't think he will react well. This is not some newbie. Whether you like it or not Keane is our captain, talisman and one of the most respected players in world football. He is prickly and combustible even at the best of times never mind the fact he hates your guts. For peace and quiet just let it lie or have a word with him in private."
McCarthy:
"Meet him in private? Eff that...I only brought a certain amount of underpants. No. I need to stamp my authority and put the fecker in his place. Once I have sufficiently embarrassed him in front of the entire squad he will be eating out of my hand. Sure what's the worst that could happen."
Assistant:
"Ok. You're the boss."

Yep, because until that meeting the other senior players hadn't read the paper and there was no tension in the room.

Keane mouthed off, unprofessional and caused tension in the room. Anything other than public would not have worked.

Anyone that works in a team environment knows that there's times when a mouth needs shutting publicly

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 11:43am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

But their relationship didn't become cold over the years... it was always cold from the get-go. They never really liked each other.

I agree that Keane was the stand out candidate for the captaincy. But there were other good leaders there too, and McCarthy had a better relationship with some of those guys.

I think McCarthy gave it to him, because he had to... not because he genuinely wanted him as his captain.

It's a debatable one I suppose.

The team spirit in those Ireland squads were so good going back from the Charlton days, that even Keane's moodiness didn't necessarily cause much of a problem most of the time... it's actually very strange that everything exploded at that moment. Keane had been complaining about poor standards for years.

That's why you need a strong bond with your captain imo, because the gap between the two of them meant that McCarthy perhaps misjudged exactly what was going on in Keane's mind... He was ready to explode, and McCarthy foolishly pulled the pin out of that grenade at the worst possible moment!

In the one sense criticising the set up was fine but at the same time it was too effing late to do anything about it so it was rather pointless at that stage. So Keane should have perhaps kept it for the WC post mortem.

I think Keane's decision to do the interview was his way to let off steam rather than letting it build up inside. If he bottled it up it he may very have exploded on the pitch and got sent off later on. It was almost theraputic.

After the interview, the ball was in McCarthy's court and it was his decision to call the ill fated meeting.

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 11:49am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yep, because until that meeting the other senior players hadn't read the paper and there was no tension in the room.

Keane mouthed off, unprofessional and caused tension in the room. Anything other than public would not have worked.

Anyone that works in a team environment knows that there's times when a mouth needs shutting publicly

Several days out from the first WC game ain't the time to do it. This was not a standard team or club environment. These were players couped up for weeks at a time training for a WC. All sorts of different personalities that need to be managed.

Was it necessary or productive to publicly shut down Keane's mouth? I think the outcome speaks for itself.

24-07-2020 12:01pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Several days out from the first WC game ain't the time to do it. This was not a standard team or club environment. These were players couped up for weeks at a time training for a WC. All sorts of different personalities that need to be managed.

Was it necessary or productive to publicly shut down Keane's mouth? I think the outcome speaks for itself.

I think the outcome absolutely shows it was correct. The trouble maker went home in a sulk, the team bonded and played very well

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 12:08pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Except the knock on effect to the rest of the staff. One sees it fly, gets the hump and it rolls on and on.

The WC was also not one night and it wasn't a barman, it was your captain.

They had it out as a team because it effects the team. It was a chance for all opinions but sadly for Roy, those opinions didn't back him. They said it themselves afterwards.

The team played better afterwards because there was no fracture. Keane left the team because the team didn't agree with his personal opinion.

He left United similarly, Ipswich, Sunderland, even cobh I believe had issues.

The rest of the team sat there with their mouths shut. They knew which side of their bread was buttered. Quinn, Staunton and Kelly were they only ones that rowed in behind McCarthy after the fact as show of solidarity which was fair enough.

As pointed at the time most of the players were just happy to be there or just too young to pipe up. Plus it all happened so quickly that most didnt appreciate what was going on or have time to react.

The team played better without him? Not sure how you can possibly arrive at that conclusion.

In contrast when Keane left United after criticising players did Ferguson call a squad meeting and shine a spotlight on Keane? No. Ferguson had Keane in his office in person and essentially fired him.

Mad_maxx · 24-07-2020 12:08pm

partyguinness wrote: »

You are evading my question and the elephant in the room: McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. That team meeting was unnecessary. McCarthy could have just ignored it for the sake of peace and quiet and focus on the job in hand. But no. He called a full on team meeting and waved the newspaper in the air.

Regardless of anyone's view of Keane that was a bad management.

They had a slagging match and got it off their chest. Big deal. It was a room of fully grown men- professional footballers who see all sorts of fights between team mates in the dressing room and training pitch.

So McCarthy decided "I am going to let my captain and best player go home because he hurt my feelings."

As I said, Keane went to meet McCarthy in his room and he was stopped in the corridoor and told McCarthy had made up his mind.

That does not come under my defintion of "walking out on the team".

As I said, McCarthy didn't have the balls to meet Keane head on in private and went for the safety in numbers herd mentality by surrounding himself with the rest of the squad- he felt safer.

Like the school bully who is all mouth in front of an audience but a very quiet boy in private.

Mc carthy was right to send him home, no player should be bigger than the team, walking on eggshells around Keanes temper for the rest of the tournament would have ruined team spirit

As it turned out, that was a very good WC showing from an average team, obviously far better than the current team but a shadow of the 88 or 90 squad

Mad_maxx · 24-07-2020 12:14pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Yeah but it is all relative. Have you watched GAA footage from the 60s and 70s and even into the late 80s?

It is the modern day equivalent of a bad Junior C game.

You can only be as good as the era you played in, Pele wasn't as fit as Ronaldo etc

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 12:16pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I think the outcome absolutely shows it was correct. The trouble maker went home in a sulk, the team bonded and played very well

No you are missing the point. It was about management and managing a situation.

If McCarthy called the team meeting with the expectation that it would clear the air and everyone would be honky dory afterwards then he was badly wrong and that was a bad management decision on McCarthy's part as evidenced by Keane ending up going home. If he did not envisage that scenario arising then it was a grave miscalculation.

McCarthy decided to up the ante which resulted in his captain and best player not playing at the WC. That was not a good outcome for management. As I have mentioned earlier Keane actually walked to McCarthy's room to try and sort it out but he was stopped- is that good management?

Now maybe that was McCathy's ultimate goal- escalate a scenario where he can finally get rid of Keane.

Hamsterchops · 24-07-2020 12:21pm

.anon. wrote: »

He was from Belfast, which is in Ireland, not Britain, as can clearly be seen from aerial photographs.

Northern Irish, British ... and Irish, with a small i

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 12:31pm

I am actually going to go with Sonia O'Sullivan because it is such an individual sport.

I cannot think of any other Irish sportsperson that dominated their sport quite like she did back in the 90s.

Edgware · 24-07-2020 12:33pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Yeah but it is all relative. Have you watched GAA footage from the 60s and 70s and even into the late 80s?

It is the modern day equivalent of a bad Junior C game.

Well I suppose the problem in comparing is that we are judging on camera footage. The camera footage available in the 40s 50s 60s is of Charlie Chaplin standard. These players didnt need gym as they were involved in physical work, might cycle 10 miles to and from training, restricted diet e.g no ****ing pasta

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 12:36pm

Edgware wrote: »

Well I suppose the problem in comparing is that we are judging on camera footage. The camera footage available in the 40s 50s 60s is of Charlie Chaplin standard. These players didnt need gym as they were involved in physical work, might cycle 10 miles to and from training, restricted diet e.g no ****ing pasta

Yeah I am being very unfair and slightly provocative.

salmocab · 24-07-2020 12:41pm

Comparing players now and years ago is just unfair, the training and science has moved on so much. Using time travel and bringing say the great Kerry team of the 70s to play the current Kerry team would be no contest the current players have better conditioning and tactics however if they were all brought up at the same time with the same acccess to everything I’d suspect the 70s team would be better players for the most part.

Truthvader · 24-07-2020 12:43pm

Can we not re-run the "who was right Roy or Mick" argument again (which often just boils down to who is from Cork and who isn't)

A substantial percentage won't back Roy as greatest ever as evidenced here. Endy Story. Bye Roy

Still Ronnie Delaney for me. From a time before money.

Greatest Sportsman - NOT Greatest Businessman or Twitter profile or richest etc

24-07-2020 1:52pm

partyguinness wrote: »

The rest of the team sat there with their mouths shut. They knew which side of their bread was buttered. Quinn, Staunton and Kelly were they only ones that rowed in behind McCarthy after the fact as show of solidarity which was fair enough.

As pointed at the time most of the players were just happy to be there or just too young to pipe up. Plus it all happened so quickly that most didnt appreciate what was going on or have time to react.

The team played better without him? Not sure how you can possibly arrive at that conclusion.

In contrast when Keane left United after criticising players did Ferguson call a squad meeting and shine a spotlight on Keane? No. Ferguson had Keane in his office in person and essentially fired him.

You can't be fired from national duty though. It's different

The team played very well, we were hard done by Spain and could have gone far.

The senior players backed the manager, you can't know how the rest that didn't speak felt so don't make claims about how they felt.

Mad_maxx · 24-07-2020 2:06pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Can we not re-run the "who was right Roy or Mick" argument again (which often just boils down to who is from Cork and who isn't)

A substantial percentage won't back Roy as greatest ever as evidenced here. Endy Story. Bye Roy

Still Ronnie Delaney for me. From a time before money.

Greatest Sportsman - NOT Greatest Businessman or Twitter profile or richest etc

That was a once off for Delaney, he didn't feature before or after

24-07-2020 2:07pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am actually going to go with Sonia O'Sullivan because it is such an individual sport.

I cannot think of any other Irish sportsperson that dominated their sport quite like she did back in the 90s.

That's a very good call actually.

I would throw Ronnie Whelan in. Part of a dominant Liverpool team and could have done far more in the Irish Jersey

Doctors room ghost · 24-07-2020 4:26pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am actually going to go with Sonia O'Sullivan because it is such an individual sport.

I cannot think of any other Irish sportsperson that dominated their sport quite like she did back in the 90s.

Until 3 lab brewed Chinese came out of nowhere and beat her.robbing bastads

jmayo · 24-07-2020 4:38pm

doggerland wrote: »

I think sports people from more than 20 years ago, don't count.

People harp on about Christy Ring, let's be honest with todays training and effort, he'd never come close to matching any decent player from a top team. Not his fault.

Oh what load of unadulterated shyte.

Class and skill can transcend generations and time.
Ring had skill, so had many others.
Ring would not have lasted as long because GAA has become a young mans game in the last couple of decades.

The likes of Jimmy Keaveney, Eoin Liston, Colm Corkery might not last today or even make a county panel, not because they aren't skillful enough, but because they aren't willing to live on some concoction dreamt up by a dietician and they aren't willing to spend half the week doing gym work.

People laud Messi and Ronaldo has if their likes have never been seen before and because of how long they have been at the top.
But Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Puskas, Garrincha, Cruyff and Best were phenomenal players and would equally be as good today.
Most of them never got the longevity of Messi or Ronaldo thanks in no small part to how they weren't offered anything like the protection offered the current guys playing.

But if 25 year old version of Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano were around today they would be right at the top.

partyguinness wrote: »

Yeah but it is all relative. Have you watched GAA footage from the 60s and 70s and even into the late 80s?

It is the modern day equivalent of a bad Junior C game.

You mean back when the guys ...
weren't training 6 days a week,
weren't on controlled diets developed by professional dieticians,
weren't guided by professional strength and fitness coaches,
hadn't their every move on a pitch tracked by satellites to be analysed later,
weren't part of county development squads since they were 14,
weren't part of systemic systems developed by multiple coaches watching hours upon hours of videos.

Kerry's Dublin based players in the 70s/80s were trained by a teacher and sports commentator for part of their heyday, not by multiple professional coaches.
How many professionals are involved in a top GAA team these days.
Dublin senior county panel has had upto 23 odd backroom people involved with their games and countless more involved in their preparation.
Other counties have nearly as much.
Most county squads now have huge numbers in comparison to years ago.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 24-07-2020 4:49pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am actually going to go with Sonia O'Sullivan because it is such an individual sport.

I cannot think of any other Irish sportsperson that dominated their sport quite like she did back in the 90s.

She didn't dominate her sport!

She was highly competitive in her sport - but domination is an entirely different thing.

Usain Bolt dominated his sport. 8 olympic gold medals, 11 world championship golds... holds the 100m world record (and has broken it 4 times), 200m world record... countless guinness world records etc. He's still only 33 and retired 3 or 4 years ago - many athletes are still competing at his age!

That's domination!

Sonia O'Sullivan was highly competitive and highly talented, but never quite fulfilled her huge potential at the highest level.

partyguinness · 24-07-2020 4:54pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

She didn't dominate her sport!

She was highly competitive in her sport - but domination is an entirely different thing.

Usain Bolt dominated his sport. 8 olympic gold medals, 11 world championship golds... holds the 100m world record (and has broken it 4 times), 200m world record... countless guinness world records etc. He's still only 33 and retired 3 or 4 years ago - many athletes are still competing at his age!

That's domination!

Sonia O'Sullivan was highly competitive and highly talented, but never quite fulfilled her huge potential at the highest level.

She was the stand out and most consistent female middle distance runner from say 92 to 97/98. Her league meets Euros and Worlds. Her 2000 Olympic silver was slightly unexpected as she had taken time off to have a child. Perhaps she didnt clean up with medals as she should have but she still dominated. Usian Bolt is an extreme example.

Anyway, her record is still head and shoulders any other Irish sportsperson in their field.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 24-07-2020 5:05pm

partyguinness wrote: »

She was the stand out and most consistent female middle distance runner from say 92 to 97/98. Her league meets Euros and Worlds. Her 2000 silver was slightly unexpected as she had taken time off to have a child. Perhaps she didnt clean up with medals as she should have but she still dominated. Usian Bolt is an extreme example.

She did not dominate her sport. Not at the elite level.

You cannot call her a dominant female distance runner, when she went to 4 olympic games and only has one solitary silver medal to show for it.

I'm sorry, but with the talent she had she should have achieved far more than that.

As regards having a baby before the 2000 olympics... I'm the person who first highlighted this on the thread, and it was a massive error in judgement on her part. She was one the favourites for gold in those games, but basically blew her chances... so she only really has herself to blame on that one.

She would certainly make any top 20 list comfortably, but she's definitely not the greatest ever. Not for me anyway.

Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP