Treve Treve Treve

Gringo180 · 08-10-2013 1:42am

Slattsy wrote: »

Ah be jaysus that's some statement.

Just my opinion mate, ive said already this is the best filly i have ever seen. Jarnet hadnt asked her anything and she cantered to the front while a top class field behind her where hard at it. Visually it was the best performance of any horse ive seen since Frankel.

jimjamcos · 08-10-2013 2:17am

Gringo180 wrote: »

Just my opinion mate, ive said already this is the best filly i have ever seen. Jarnet hadnt asked her anything and she cantered to the front while a top class field behind her where hard at it. Visually it was the best performance of any horse ive seen since Frankel.

You never seen Sprinter Sacre?

mdwexford · 08-10-2013 2:41am

This thread is in bits.

hucklebuck · 08-10-2013 10:33pm

tryfix wrote: »

It's only the Racing Post Ratings and not the official ratings. It's hard to gauge a race by the initial result, so if an improving horse gets close to a good one they've got to be careful that they don't overrate that horse and use the collateral form to assess the true value of the form. Which is why you see Al Kazeem's Ascot form being subsequently marked down.

Treve has the same RPR rating as Toronado, but Treve would receive 3lbs for the sex allowance. So she'd theoretically finish ahead of him with the sex allowance, but finish level if she wasn't receiving that allowance.

The sex allowance is an extra bit of help for the fillies and it's different than the weight for age allowance which doesn't affect the ratings.

I know most of this but it's the way they snap react to one performance and are slow to go wait a minute this yolk isn't a 135+ horse that is what I can't figure out.

I think Treve is better than Toronado without the allowance thus she should be rated higher imo.

Even the bare ratings of Zarkava and Treves performances are flawled imo. Treve had a dream run, albeit she was wide but she had a clear run from the 5f mark, Zarkava almost ran out at the start and was boxed in and only got daylight inside the 3f pole, for me Zarkava is a better horse.

tryfix · 08-10-2013 11:07pm

hucklebuck wrote: »

I know most of this but it's the way they snap react to one performance and are slow to go wait a minute this yolk isn't a 135+ horse that is what I can't figure out.

I think Treve is better than Toronado without the allowance thus she should be rated higher imo.

Even the bare ratings of Zarkava and Treves performances are flawled imo. Treve had a dream run, albeit she was wide but she had a clear run from the 5f mark, Zarkava almost ran out at the start and was boxed in and only got daylight inside the 3f pole, for me Zarkava is a better horse.

Overall for durability and versatility Zarkava like Sea The Stars was more brilliant, but in the Arc she beat Youmzain and Soldier Of Fortune by 2l and a 1/2l.

Treve beat equally as good horses by 5l and so she produced a better performance in the Arc than any single performance Zarkava has ever produced. It would be hard to argue that Soldier of Fortune ( OR 124 ) was 2 1/2l superior to Orfevre ( OR 127 ).

Strangely enough Orfevre 127 with his 2 Arc seconds fills the same role as a yardstick as Youmzain 125 did with his 3 Arc seconds.

Putting Treve's win ahead of Sea The Stars and Zarkava's Arc wins.

hucklebuck · 08-10-2013 11:55pm

tryfix wrote: »

Overall for durability and versatility Zarkava like Sea The Stars was more brilliant, but in the Arc she beat Youmzain and Soldier Of Fortune by 2l and a 1/2l.

Treve beat equally as good horses by 5l and so she produced a better performance in the Arc than any single performance Zarkava has ever produced. It would be hard to argue that Soldier of Fortune ( OR 124 ) was 2 1/2l superior to Orfevre ( OR 127 ).

Strangely enough Orfevre 127 with his 2 Arc seconds fills the same role as a yardstick as Youmzain 125 did with his 3 Arc seconds.

Putting Treve's win ahead of Sea The Stars and Zarkava's Arc wins.

It depends what you call a better performance, if you are talking comparable sectionals I would say Zarkava is quicker, I don't know where to get this data but she beat Goldikova snugly at 2 and her turn of foot in the Boussac, Vermille and Diane was nothing short of breathtaking. To my eye Zarkava is a quicker horse and would be more than capable of running the last 600m in around 30 seconds.

Sure Youmzain is a good yardstick but my contention is he seemed to perform best at Longchamp and his rating is lower than the pure rating he would achieve at Longchamp so can his rating be relied on as a direct comparison.

In relation to Sea The Stars his rating is below where he should be as once he hit the front he would idle, STS was one of those horses that not did look quick but chewed up the ground. Again STS did not get daylight until the 3f pole and at that he was around 18 seconds to the line even taking a bump from Dar Re Mi and idling.

If you had a match between the three I think Treve is third and she is a smashing horse.

I suppose my biggest issue with the ratings Zarkava goes down in history as a worse horse than Treve and Goldikova, I think she is better than Treve and she beat Goldikova twice. And Sea The Stars is regarded as on a par with Harbinger who he would piss all over every day of the week.

I guess it's hard to assess but the Harbinger rating grates on me, a couple of nice looking victories but he beat flip all.

UrbanSea · 22-12-2013 2:55pm

Orfevre goes and wins a gr.1 by 8 lengths on his final start. A top class horse, how freakily good does that make Treve. She is outstanding.

jimjamcos · 22-12-2013 3:07pm

UrbanSea wrote: »

Orfevre goes and wins a gr.1 by 8 lengths on his final start. A top class horse, how freakily good does that make Treve. She is outstanding.

Was just about to post the same. He beat the Japan Cup winner the way she beat him. Treve turns up next October, she wins.

culline · 22-12-2013 5:54pm

Would 3/1 for the Arc be a long term investment?

jimjamcos · 22-12-2013 6:21pm

culline wrote: »

Would 3/1 for the Arc be a long term investment?

Injury looks her only rival unless a horse of Frankel class comes from nowhere. Aidan O'Brien's best ever horse could end up there I suppose. :pac:

SRFC · 22-12-2013 6:28pm

jimjamcos wrote: »

Injury looks her only rival unless a horse of Frankel class comes from nowhere. Aidan O'Brien's best ever horse could end up there I suppose. :pac:

Which one is that :pac:

jimjamcos · 22-12-2013 6:34pm

SRFC wrote: »

Which one is that :pac:

The 10th time's a charm!! He really really means it this time, apparently!

Colonel Sanders · 22-12-2013 7:54pm

jimjamcos wrote: »

The 10th time's a charm!! He really really means it this time, apparently!

Australia is the latest one isn't it?

paddy no 11 · 22-12-2013 8:11pm

The names on these coolmore horse's are a bit bombastic, War command, declaration of war, the united states, Australia, etc are they selling the horses to ex yankee military types or something, tone it down a bit lads please FFS.

tryfix · 23-12-2013 7:40pm

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Australia is the latest one isn't it?

Love that beast of a horse:)

Treve looks good enough to win a second Arc, but 1978 was the last time an Arc winner won back to back Arcs, not sure how many have tried it, but it is quite a challenge keeping a horse right for a second Arc win.

Nulty · 23-12-2013 8:01pm

Treve's performance was brilliant, lets see her do it again next year. Orfevre came form Japan every time he raced, Treve was at home (...endless pointless arguments could be made like this one like Orfevre had a prep run, shows there was nothing bothering him etc but then what did he beat that day? and on soft ground (in the Arc) is he nearly as good a horse?....continue to argue though, you'll basically never reach a conclusion)

Best horse on the day won the Arc. Danedream was a very good mare and went to Japan and underperformed. Send Treve to Japan and see how she copes.

Respect to the horse, mind.

tryfix · 23-12-2013 10:16pm

Nulty wrote: »

Treve's performance was brilliant, lets see her do it again next year. Orfevre came form Japan every time he raced, Treve was at home (...endless pointless arguments could be made like this one like Orfevre had a prep run, shows there was nothing bothering him etc but then what did he beat that day? and on soft ground (in the Arc) is he nearly as good a horse?....continue to argue though, you'll basically never reach a conclusion)

Best horse on the day won the Arc. Danedream was a very good mare and went to Japan and underperformed. Send Treve to Japan and see how she copes.

Respect to the horse, mind.

Orfevre is a freak on his day, and Sunday being his swansong, well let's just say he was likely to be well revved up for it. The collateral form isn't up to a whole lot, with some moderate horses in the mix at the finish bringing down the value of beating the better ones like Gold Ship rpr 128 who couldn't have run to form in 3rd because they are better horses than the likes of Love Is Boo **** rpr 111 who finished on Gold Ships tail in 4th on Sunday. Gold Ship beaten 9 1/2l Sunday was beaten 8 1/4l by Gentildonna the time before, so it's more likely to be St Nicholas Abbey territory form rather than Frankel level form. Still, puts a very good gloss on Treve's form, very good indeed..

UrbanSea · 24-12-2013 12:49pm

Nulty wrote: »

Treve's performance was brilliant, lets see her do it again next year. Orfevre came form Japan every time he raced, Treve was at home (...endless pointless arguments could be made like this one like Orfevre had a prep run, shows there was nothing bothering him etc but then what did he beat that day? and on soft ground (in the Arc) is he nearly as good a horse?....continue to argue though, you'll basically never reach a conclusion)

Best horse on the day won the Arc. Danedream was a very good mare and went to Japan and underperformed. Send Treve to Japan and see how she copes.

Respect to the horse, mind.

Orfevre is probably better on quick ground but its clear he could handle worse. In fairness the colt was in France for months before the Arc, European horses that go to Japan never do that, plenty of top class Europeans have gone there and disappointed. Montjeu probably the best

Gringo180 · 24-12-2013 8:42pm

If this filly runs in The Arc next year she wins its as simple as that. An absolute monster, best filly I have ever seen she absolutely smashed one of the best Arc fields in years, her turn of foot is frightening!

Colonel Sanders · 31-12-2013 12:23am

Pour vous Urban

tryfix · 18-01-2014 3:31am

The initial plan with Criquette, which of course could change, is to go for the Prix Ganay and then on to Royal Ascot for the Prince of Wales's Stakes. Then Treve would have a prep race for the Arc in the Vermeille, and then the Arc itself - so it's likely to be a four-race campaign again."

Probable firm ground over 10f, not ideal.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1126687&category=0

UrbanSea · 26-04-2014 11:30am

The machine returns tomorrow.

Taff · 26-04-2014 11:33am

UrbanSea wrote: »

The machine returns tomorrow.

not a bother on her!

Gringo180 · 26-04-2014 12:04pm

This filly is the best theres ever been, have never seen a turn of foot like hers for a middle distance horse truely electrifying to watch.

carpothepunk · 27-04-2014 2:57pm

Cirrus Des Aigles outbattles Treve, and I have just piled into the 2/1 available for the Prince of Wales

Johner · 27-04-2014 5:53pm

Trevelol.

Slattsy · 27-04-2014 8:41pm

Over-rated.
In.
Training.
Layers dream.
€.

UrbanSea · 27-04-2014 9:17pm

Some good points there Slattsy. Certainly a layer's dream alright getting beaten for the first time in her career.

Itziger · 27-04-2014 10:09pm

UrbanSea wrote: »

Some good points there Slattsy. Certainly a layer's dream alright getting beaten for the first time in her career.

By a short head. I'd say Slattsy will be laying her to the tune of a few grand next day.

Gringo180 · 27-04-2014 11:02pm

Slattsy wrote: »

Over-rated.
In.
Training.
Layers dream.
€.

Harry Angstrom · 28-04-2014 12:37am

carpothepunk wrote: »

Cirrus Des Aigles outbattles Treve, and I have just piled into the 2/1 available for the Prince of Wales

Treve will be a different filly at Royal Ascot, providing she turns up. 2/1 is the price of the season. Cirrus Des Aigles got lucky today.

tryfix · 28-04-2014 12:42am

Wouldn't get too dispirited about that performance. Treve needs 12f and Cirrus needs 10f and very Soft ground which he got.

Would back her with complete confidence over 12f in the best of company.

Harry Angstrom · 28-04-2014 12:50am

tryfix wrote: »

Wouldn't get too dispirited about that performance. Treve needs 12f and Cirrus needs 10f and very Soft ground which he got.

Would back her with complete confidence over 12f in the best of company.

Cirrus Des Aigles also had a very advantageous fitness edge over Treve. The Ganay is a joke race. It's far too early in the season to be running a Group One for 4yo's and upwards. It reminds me of the Prix Lupin, in terms of being a completely and utterly pointless Group One.

Slattsy · 28-04-2014 6:19am

Slattsy wrote: »

Over-rated.
In.
Training.
Layers dream.
€.

What does that even mean!

RichieLawlor · 28-04-2014 8:22am

The really great ones didn't get beaten by anything, think Zarkava, STS and Frankel, especially by a 25 year old flat horse.

Bad auld nag

Gringo180 · 28-04-2014 10:41am

RichieLawlor wrote: »

The really great ones didn't get beaten by anything, think Zarkava, STS and Frankel, especially by a 25 year old flat horse.

Bad auld nag

Cirris Des Aigles is one of the best 10 furlong horses ever. He was fit and she wasnt, this filly would beat Zarkava imo.

Johner · 28-04-2014 10:44am

Anyone got a video of the race? Always said last year if anyone could get Treve beat it was Dettori. :pac:

RichieLawlor · 28-04-2014 10:59am

Gringo180 wrote: »

Cirris Des Aigles is one of the best 10 furlong horses ever. He was fit and she wasnt, this filly would beat Zarkava imo.

Cirrus Des Aigles was a decent horse, he's old now, ancient for a flat horse. This 'Treve wasn't fit' is a load of bollocks, it was a 250k grade 1.

Treve wouldn't see which way Zarkava went

UrbanSea · 28-04-2014 11:03am

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Cirrus Des Aigles was a decent horse, he's old now, ancient for a flat horse. This 'Treve wasn't fit' is a load of bollocks, it was a 250k grade 1.

Treve wouldn't see which way Zarkava went

In fairness if you think the Ganay was going to be the be all and end all you'd be naive

Nulty · 28-04-2014 11:30am

It's not like she was beaten out of sight or comfortably even. The way she was beate suggests that fitness beat her, and a top class, race fit champion in his ideal conditions.

Anyone hear what connections had to say??

Just checked there:

"She definitely needed the run"

Gregk961 · 28-04-2014 12:55pm

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Cirrus Des Aigles was a decent horse, he's old now, ancient for a flat horse. This 'Treve wasn't fit' is a load of bollocks, it was a 250k grade 1.

He has still been consistently rated as one of the top 3 horses for the last 3 or 4 years and on his day can beat almost anything.

In hindsight the result isnt as much of a shock as I first thought, no doubt its taken some gloss off Treve though

Gringo180 · 28-04-2014 1:48pm

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Treve wouldn't see which way Zarkava went

Can't be having that man, Treve won a much stronger Arc, 3 Derby winners a Prince of Wales and Eclipse winner in the field. She made a horse rated 130 look like a tree when winning at Longchamp in October. This filly won't be beaten again this season, that 2/1 for the Prince of Wales is a gift she should be odds on.

tryfix · 28-04-2014 10:49pm

Video of the race, looks like she just got a bit tired at the end. Don't think the jockey was too hard on her.

NaiveMelodies · 28-04-2014 10:56pm

Sweet high five between the two lads after the line too.

Head on worth watching- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgI8cGsUYk

Great race.

Gringo180 · 15-09-2014 9:14pm

What do you's make of her run yesterday lads, its hard to now whether the trainer had her fully wound up for the run with the Arc only a few weeks away and the jockey wasn't overly hard on her, but you've got to be disappointed that she didn't win. A lot of question marks over her but 8/1 is very tempting.

Harry Angstrom · 15-09-2014 9:17pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

What do you's make of her run yesterday lads, its hard to now whether the trainer had her fully wound up for the run with the Arc only a few weeks away and the jockey wasn't overly hard on her, but you've got to be disappointed that she didn't win. A lot of question marks over her but 8/1 is very tempting.

She doesn't look half the filly that she was last year. Too many excuses being made for her defeats, apart from the obvious that she hasn't trained on as well as they thought she might.

Gringo180 · 15-09-2014 9:26pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

She doesn't look half the filly that she was last year. Too many excuses being made for her defeats, apart from the obvious that she hasn't trained on as well as they thought she might.

She was sensational last season and ran an absolute cracker on her comeback run only going down a neck to a race fit Cirrus Des Aigles. She didn't look to travel whatsoever in the POW stakes and yet wasn't beaten far on ground and a trip that you would think would of been unfavourable. Her trainer is no fool and I don't think she was anywhere near 100% fit yesterday with her main target a few weeks away. I think she is worth another chance, this is a very special filly imo.

Harry Angstrom · 15-09-2014 10:03pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

She was sensational last season and ran an absolute cracker on her comeback run only going down a neck to a race fit Cirrus Des Aigles. She didn't look to travel whatsoever in the POW stakes and yet wasn't beaten far on ground and a trip that you would think would of been unfavourable. Her trainer is no fool and I don't think she was anywhere near 100% fit yesterday with her main target a few weeks away. I think she is worth another chance, this is a very special filly imo.

She'll have to be very very special to win back-to-back Arcs. Montjeu couldn't do it, amongst others, and she's without a win from three starts this season, after looking virtually unbeatable as a 3yo.

BumperD · 15-09-2014 11:26pm

She has regressed since last year. Cannot see her making the frame.

tryfix · 16-09-2014 12:25am

BumperD wrote: »

She has regressed since last year. Cannot see her making the frame.

That's a huge problem, horses that win the Arc are progressive, have won big races that year like Oaks and Derbies or the King George. Even Solemia the surpise 33/1 2012 winner had gone from listed winner as a 3yo to GP2 winner as a 4yo and placed 3rd in the Vermeille.

Treve Treve Treve

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