Engagement Ring - FACTS, not fiction

I know you mentioned that travel was out

but aer lingus are doing tax only flights, you could get to antwerp for about 50e and return the same day.

You can make arrangements before hand to meet with a number of jewelers and most will set the ring there and then.

Hiya, just out of a jewellers today getting my wedding ring made (funny shaped engagement ring) she quoted me white gold price and also offered me a price for paladium as an alternative. What are your opinions on this metal? I've never heard of it.

Biro wrote: »

I think it's similar in properties to platinum. It's used in Catylitic Converters. So is Platinum I think, so they could be of the same family.

I was googling it there and it said something similar. I've never heard of it before in my life. The jeweller offered me it for more than 300 euro less than the price for the same ring in gold. I think I might go for it- I'll have to find out if it'll damage my engagement ring though- she said it wouldn't but still, no harm finding out for myself.

hi everyone. i just got engaged and have found an antique ring in inne in killarney.here are the details- 18kt white gold band, sapphire and diamond cluster, colour H and clarity vs1-€1950.. is this reasonable? i avnt a clue....big decision and noone wants to be ripped off... any feedback appreciated

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi! I'm looking for some advice on shopping for an antique ring.

Are antique rings more expensive than new ones? Is it going to be more expensive to buy a ring in Dublin or should I be looking for antique shops down the country?

Any other advice or tips?

Thanks!

I've seen a number of threads either here or on askaboutmoney.com all about buying antique rings. The only caveat I would advise is that you generally don't get the same sparkle from an antique ring, all other Cs being equal, as the Cut will not be as exacting as it can be with modern technology and processes. If its important to you that you know your diamond is a D or an E etc, then great. But if its important to you that it lights up like a laser, then its all about Cut, Fluorescence etc etc. Rarely colour. If you can afford a D diamond, you don't need to be asking prices .

There's a number of good auctions in Dublin with good reports back anecdotally either on Boards or AAM.

Best of luck

Yes, I agree that any diamond can be certified but its all about who authenticates the cert. It must be from an independent body of repute. And most of the older and antique rings (and I think the OP meant more Victorian><1920s than 1975 ) won't have that kind of independent certification. Of course, an independent jeweller who specialises in certification could do it for you; but its not the same thing at all. But that's common to all diamonds of a certain age.

Yes some cutting techniques have not improved / disimproved.

An Ri Rua "Cut can make an I or a J diamond better to look at than a G that is poorly cut."
Keyes>>"no it can't!!!"

But some jewellers may 'tell' you a ring is G or H or whatever or quote improper certs, but of course they may not be to that standard. I still contend that if there's no fluorescence present, that a J can stand up to a H and an I can stand comparison to a G. To the naked eye that is. Most of a girl's girlfriends won't be carrying a jeweller's loupe in that handbag.....!


Keyes "all the elements need to be good, if you focus on just one you'll make a mistake!"
Yes, I agree fully with that. It is ALL of the factors that go to make a great diamond. That's why anyone buying should take their time and get to know the lingo. That's not easily done at all in a jewellers. Best done in the comfort of your own home.

But I would still sacrifice colour for cut every time.

Here's a page looking at body-tint (colour) versus face-up whiteness and light return for the near-colourless range. All stones look to be AGS000 and/or GIA triple Ex.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Color/NearColorless/

The effects can be very subtle to the human eye, but there's probably no doubt that similarly cut stones D and H beside each other will be identifiable by anyone. On their own though, it's a lot more difficult to draw any kind of distinction. If size is the most pressing issue I'd line up the importance of other factors as: cut, colour and clarity. With bottom lines at Ex cut (GIA/AGS/HRD labs), H, SI1 (from a trustworthy vendor who can give an opinion on eye-cleaness at 6-8 inches in different lights) and moving upwards with the size of the stone, most likely) -- but all personal preference.

If you do your homework on cut quality and lab grading quality, and explore what your limitations are for the look you want and what you're able to live with mentally for clarity, you have a lot more scope.

keyes wrote: »

it's an interesting site, but i'd be sceptical of anyone who says that GIA and EGL are on a par.

I think he's referring to EGL USA, which is taken to be more accurate than its European counterpart. He's also selling top-class performance diamonds for excellent prices cf. Ireland.

true. and probably true also of a G colour.

this thing is, you can say similar things about cut grade. line up an excellent cut, very good and a good, and i don't think anyone can tell them apart.

the difference between excellent and very good might just be some pointings, or even one or two asymmetric facet junctions below the girdle. the naked eye could not detect that. anyone who thinks they can should tell NASA to get rid of the hubble telescope, and employ them instead. likewise, good cut grade is going to give a beautiful diamond.

All other things being equal, cut variations might be undetectable at the level of facet lineup, but comparatively disorganise light return, or else why the distinction? To say there's no difference to the eye between excellent, very good and good cut is nonsense. If you're saying the average consumer isn't in a position to compare and contrast knowledgeably, giving rise to an effective 'no difference' -- that I can believe.

in the european market, it is very rare to come across a poor or even a fair cut grade diamond. generally the shops will not stock them.

I'm aware that the average good Irish jeweller generally uses very good /good cuts, F to H color and probably any eye-clean clarity. The idea of specifically getting what you pay for is a hazy concept in Ireland though, and greater consumer awareness of the differences will drive seller's detailed information up, and margins down. Jewellers who realise this and change accordingly will survive the sea-change, unless they're Tiffany

keyes wrote: »

EGL USA are better than other branches, but they're still no GIA or HRD!

i checked his prices. a 1 carat F VS2 for almost ten grand, then VAT on top of that, and possibly a setting? not cheap at all, even if he throws in a setting.

I invite other readers to carry out comparative pricing themselves before reaching any conclusions.

between excellent and very good, yes, if the nature of the issues causing VG are as i outlined. between good and excellent, possibly as well.

you're assuming disorganised light return is a bad thing in itself. some amount of asymettric facet organisation of top relative to bottom can generate pleasing light return, and high levels of scintillation.

Of course I'm assuming that disorganised light pathways in a stone affect the overall brilliance of that stone. Why else would Tolkowsky and subsequent perfectors of the round brilliant cut spend their years perfecting and systematizing angle combinations for maximum performance?

The difference between excellent, very good and good cuts are not apparent to the naked eye under typical jeweller's spotlighting -- but once taken out under grey Irish skies, the differences are readily noticeable, I find. Cut quality is a very succinct way to gauge the overall response of the stone. However, the average consumer typically doesn't have an excellent cut to compare it to, so it remains undetected and undetectable -- until a friend shows up with a blue nile (for example) GIA triple Ex. This is a phenomenon I see occuring more and more with the advent of internet sourcing of stones.

the GIA struggled for a long time to create a cut grading system; it's because a pleasant cut is subjective. light return can be measured, but beauty cannot. cut is the only one of the four C's that is subjective. it's a very complicated thing.the four C's that is subjective. it's a very complicated thing.

Absolutely it's a complicated thing, but not beyond the average person to be able to appreciate. I do acknowledge that Irish jewellers are particularly adept at balancing all factors to give an excellent overall result. But with the advent of consumer education the requirement for a sliding scale of quality and cost, instead of the present system of consumers buying essentially without choice mid-range selections but paying for top-end items -- is rapidly closing in. In the States average jewellers are moving onto the internet to compete, offering 100% upgrade and long-return policies. If (e.g.) Blue Nile head down a similar road, I wouldn't like to see what happens to average Irish jewellers.

keyes wrote: »

one large dublin jewellers has been advertising a 1 ct F VS for 7000 in a heavy platinum setting lately, on the front page of the times.

No mention of cut grade or light performance I'm sure, but sure there's always some sucker who'll think he's getting a great deal
Today 7000 Euro is worth $10,525.

the thing is, there is not one set of proportions that is correct. personal preference matters. to suggest that one diamond is "better" cut than another is inaccurate. this is the GIA's own opinion, not mine. it's not like colour, where you can definatively say that a D is whiter than a G, for example.

That much is obvious, insofar as selecting a diamond involves a subjective judgement on 'beauty'. The value-for-money problem in the Irish market is that the consumer isn't given an option, for example, to choose if he prefers an excellent cut and its relatively better performance, and a very good cut, with it's potentially lesser-but-pleasing performance. The prices the end consumer pays bear no relation to anything specific apart from 'white sparkly rock, looking great under unnatural light conditions'.


I haven't anywhere suggested that colours are non-tangible, but do agree that a definitively better cut can 'mask' a not-so-great colour to some degree. This is not a bad money-saving device, once you have enough information to choose.

you only want excellent cut grade, fair enough, it's your call. but it's not correct to be dogmatic about it, as different people like different cuts.

For the money you pay in Irish jewellers, I think everyone is entitled to a top-end cut!! It's not quite dogmaticism but I am concerned that Irish people are like sitting ducks before their jewellers, unaware of their many options. With the way local jewellers offer goods, people don't know which cuts they prefer, or even if they could live with lower colours for less cash.

And with that, I'll leave off. If anyone is interested in how you go about the American end of importation, which jewellers to trust etc. I'll be happy to answer.

keyes wrote: »

jump to conclusions much? you're basing that on nothing but your own preconceptions. the shop offering that is a large, highly respected international brand.

Ah, the attack starts (or, "The Jeweller Goes for the Jugular!"). It's not beyond basic common sense to surmise that a 7-grand deal on the ring you describe (which no one can verify apart from your good self) is as a result of some unsavory item descriptions not mentioned on the advertisement. Tiffany are down in the mouth enough to offer a deal like this are they? hehe.

you obviously go into in the wrong shops.

I've noticed this dismissive type statement throughout the rest of this thread when the implication is that Irish jewellers aim to make a nice fat margin out of consumer ignorance. You could argue better in your favour, and in the favour of all Irish jewellers if you argued openly and with hard facts, not the stream of negative implication and subtle scare tactics evident throughout the rest of this thread. One that is apparently dedicated to FACT!! and not fiction. 'Vaguely' is what I make of that.

you should shop around more. the more my customers know, the happier i am.

That's interesting, because you'd try to tell the rest of your potential customers that something as fundamental as cut doesn't really matter. I think you should peruse the internet more, and find out what your customers are eventually going to walk in through your door and demand. Don't say you haven't been warned!

i worked for a while in the states. there are chancers and cowboys there too, you know!

Absolutely, and that's why I'm a fairly active consumer advocate Stateside as well. And truth be told, falling into the wrong hands in the US is usually more injurious that the equivalent in Ireland, but still no reason to take what you're offered without question, like the jeweller is doing you a favour.

i have no interest in attacking anyone. i'm trying to explain the truth to you. but once again, you've jumped to a conclusion; it's not tiffany's, nor is there a problem with the diamonds in that shop. anyone who can buy an irish times can verify the ad. shall i PM you next time i see it?

It's immaterial in an internet discussion what occurs on the front page of any printed media. Suffice to say that the average reader has enough sense to notice the 100% overlap between the specs I compared and saved 3000 Euro with in the post above and your miracle find. It's enough to make a cattery laugh



This guy reckons he sells at half the cost of the average Irish jeweller. He's so confident in the relative cheapness of his wares that he's posting up a pricelist for everyone to see! His 1 carat I colour SI1 clarity solitaire in a white gold setting is running 7200 Euro -- what do you think he'd charge for an F, VS2, and in a thick platinum setting no less?

Ah, according to normal-format charging in Ireland -- about 9500 Euro I would suspect. Readers can ring up their jewellers and enquire about the cost of a spec. like that; which according to the GIA cert he's showing there involves a very good cut, excellent polish and very good symmetry.

the conclusion you jump to is that there is something unsavoury about the price, rather than a good deal. why are good deals only good deals in the states? you are refusing to listen. any point i make, you counter with "well, it's obviously a con" type responses, and that people who buy it are "suckers". it's distasteful, and inaccurate.

Well, the conclusion I mostly jump to is that the advertisement claim belongs to an Irish jeweller who's currently in an argument defending against the rip-off jewellery culture which exists in Ireland. 2 + 2 = ??!

i meant precisely what i said. if you deal with "mere" salespeople, interested in their commission and nothing else, who don't truly understand diamonds, you should shop elsewhere. nothing scary about that. common sense i'd say.

You meant precisely to dismiss my overall input here. I'd say you didn't succeed.

i'm not in favour of all irish jewellers. they're the competition!!!

Not as much as cheaper foreign jewellers are, as evidenced by the way you tried to discredit Mr Good Old Gold by trying to make us believe that he thinks EGL USA and GIA to be on an absolute par! So distasteful this sly discrediting of foreign businesspeople, tut tut, and rampant all over this thread too, I might add.

where did i say that cut doesn't matter? i DID say that the difference between excellent and very cut as a cut grade can be impossible to tell apart, and possibly betwen good and excellent. when i get customers who ask about cut grade, i explain clearly and thoroughly, with examples, the differences.

Let's see:

keyes wrote: »

you can say similar things about cut grade. line up an excellent cut, very good and a good, and i don't think anyone can tell them apart.

Here might be a good point to look at the way the implication was made originally. All it tells me though, is that you tend to sell good or very good cuts in your shop. Nothing more.

customers are what put bread on my table. i would never pull the wool over their eyes. they can ask for what they wish, i am here to serve them. i am also here to help them choose, and to share my experience if they require it.

Good for you, but do you use a sliding scale of charge in relation to your goods, is the cut-grade used openly to determine relative cost? Is it open to the consumer to take your specs and shop around with them? If you do you're absolutely on your own in the Irish jewellery business, that I know! Also, your future claim of this has no bearing on general reality, which, as we all know, involves having to *squeeze* cut information out of the manager of the average Irish jewellery shop. Wonder why.

Customers put a lot more bread on your table on a per-sale basis than they do in either Antwerp or the USA. That much is unassailable fact. The influence of the internet and consumer awareness should force Irish jeweller margins into more reasonable territory. It should also open up buying criteria to include specific and excellent information for purchasing something as expensive as diamond jewellery.

you should choose not to shop in a shop where you are getting that vibe.

In that case I'll have to do my homework and head to Antwerp or the States, or play hardball with my local jeweller according to all the information I've gleaned about diamond pricing and relative cost.

everything i have stated, i have been clear to draw a distinction between my opinion and fact. i have acknowledged your opinion, even though i disagree with it. you keep attacking my opinion, implying that i'm out to rip people off in some manner, or mislead them. it's very aggresive. i come on here to help people, and occassionally point out errors. had you initially stated an opinion that antiques diamonds are cut worse than modern stones, then fine, i'd have not bothered to reply. when you stated it as a fact, i though it appropriate to put the other side forward, but stating both facts and opinions, and distinguishing each.

Ah, the poor jeweller. You decided to come after my personal-taste insistence on GIA Excellent cut in the stones I pay thousands for, and declare that higher cut grades are effectively pointless. Talking rubbish about reality in order to keep people ignorant is a crime, isn't it? Especially when you're making money out it. Here's what I originally had to say:

With bottom lines at Ex cut (GIA/AGS/HRD labs), H, SI1 (from a trustworthy vendor who can give an opinion on eye-cleaness at 6-8 inches in different lights) and moving upwards with the size of the stone, most likely) -- but all personal preference.

Why, there I am talking about personal taste! Why did you have to come after it so? Ah, that's right, you don't sell excellent cut stones, and you don't want consumers to come in demanding them. That would wreck the margin you make buying in very good and good cuts, as it would for every average Irish jeweller.

i have no angle in coming on here. i have nothing to sell. i repeatedly decline to tell people where i work. i post only when i think i can help to clarify a point.

Yes, but it's still a fact that general consumer ignorance makes fat-margin maintenance much easier!

the GIA, in the creation of a cut grading system, state repeatedly that cut grading is subjective; that no one set of parameters is "ideal"; that the viewer should decide for themselves what they like and don't like. pagel-thiessen agrees. do you require better references than that? if you are very interested, i have a list of books you might like to read. PM me for it.

Well thank you, but I'm fairly up on the saga of GIA cut-grade development. And no matter how much the experts vary in their interpretation, one thing is true -- jewellers still buy their stones at source according to cut grade and pay accordingly. Pity consumers in Ireland don't have that choice directly when purchasing, isn't it? Also, I'm well aware that it's specific relative proportions that make a diamond cut great, not specific angles.

your arguement seems to centre around "excellent must be better, otherwise why is there a scale?", which is a valid question. had you simply asked that, i'd have been delighted to tell you. the answer is very interesting. but when you seem hellbent on attacking me and my opinion, i really can't be bothered to help you. the booklist i have will explain it all.

I've been making recommendations for saving cash and criticising the entire jewellery-selling circus in Ireland. I didn't have any queries and have no problem admitting that a lesser cut stone can provide excellent overall results. What are you talking about!! My whole point and motivation is that Irish people pay good money for things in diamonds that they have no say in. I say educate yourself and look further afield and use your money specifically to buy (in most instances) a lot more of what you want: better cut, higher colour, higher clarity. Either that or use what you know to force the margins down in local jewellers. That's about it.

have a nice weekend.

I always have a nice weekend, even on a Friday Good luck in your endeavours.

keyes wrote: »

LOL. why buy online when the same thing can be bought in a local bricks and mortar shop for less?

LOL? How very composed hehe. Keep defending the rip-off culture there, work away. Also, I didn't have to buy online to save serious cash, I merely used basic information to deflate common 100% plus margins in Ireland.

my italics.

Well spotted, they're not mine

As for the reckons, a jeweller willing to reveal something of his pricing strategy on the net is obviously in a position to offer competitive pricing relative to the rest, that's what makes it such a great example.

i've been suggesting people educate themselves and shop around.

You've been suggesting to me, and by extension the rest of the internet, that foreign business people are inherently untrustworthy, and that something that influences the base-cost of diamonds at trade-level is somehow irrelevant for purely self-interested reasons during your conversation with me.

post reported.

Why, because it's such a masterpiece?!

you don't seem to read what i say.

Au contraire, I read exactly what you say, and what you imply. Report away, and while you're at it, tell the sea to stop rolling into the shore, it's wearing the rocks down to sand. LOL yourself!!! :pac:

Contd...

Finding the baseline: online comparisons

Because we want to price a ring that is as good as, or slightly better than
average jeweller offerings, we need our search criteria to include:

• Weight: just under 0.5 carat, i.e. 0.47 to 0.49 ct
  
  
• Colour: F colour, if very bright white is important. If white
  rather than super-white is allowable, G or even H is a good bet
  as long as the cut is at least very good. Lower colours are
  advisable only if you and your partner find that you didn’t
  notice or care about them during your ‘trying on’ expeditions,
  particularly when close to the window
  
  
• Clarity: In general, VS2 clarities and above are guaranteed
  to be eye-clean for round brilliant cuts – but what about lower,
  cheaper clarities? For the purposes of online comparison (where
  jeweller margins are most evident), we would need to locate an
  eye-clean SI1 – but this is only possible with an online retailer
  who supplies diamond photos and detailed certificates, or who
  will physically inspect the stone for eye cleanliness for you. For
  this reason our clarity requirement is VS2.
  
  
• Cut: GIA ‘very good’, as this is typically what the average
  jeweller stocks in Ireland.
  
  
• Fluorescence: None or faint, unless you or your partner
  specifically like the blue tint that florescence gives to a stone.
  
  
• Symmetry: Very good (typical in Irish jewellery shops)
  
  
• Polish: Excellent (also typical)

In short, buy nothing below VS2 clarity online without the opinion of an
expert eye; a phone call or two could save you having to return and replace
your selection. If the retailer you’re dealing with doesn’t have access to the
stones, don’t buy – even if they’re giving it away! TBC...

...

Decisions, decisions: why it might be worth buying in a shop

The biggest plus in buying in a ‘bricks and mortar’ shop is the after-sales
service. This involves cleaning, polishing and replating (e.g. white gold) your
ring and repairing any minor work that needs to be carried out cyclically, like
checking and tightening prongs holding your stone, for example. These are
surely useful services – but is it really worth paying over the odds in order to
gain them? The answer to this is that it depends on how much effort you
want to put into finding alternate arrangements. The trick is to find a
skilled bench-man or independent jeweller and
ask him to help maintain your pieces. There’s no harm in putting a few
queries their way, or any jeweller’s way before you make an online purchase,
for example. Also, a jeweller is more likely to extend his services to a foreign
engagement ring if both wedding bands are bought at his shop.


Weighing it up: platinum versus white gold

White gold
White gold is relatively light, highly lustrous and easily modified (size changed
etc). But as an alloy of yellow gold, palladium with nickel or zinc, it tends to
look vaguely yellow. Jewellers hide this yellow tinge under a plating of the
expensive and pure white metal, rhodium. Depending on the way your body
chemistry interacts with the metals making up white gold, it can cause
allergic reaction (nickel). To keep the bright white look the ring is likely to
need to be replated every 6 to 18 months. Before investing in a white gold
ring, make sure you or your partner aren’t allergic to typical white gold alloys.
If having your rings made up by an independent jeweller, ask for a higher
content of palladium in order to keep the metal alloy whiter than usual.
This should lengthen the gaps between replatings.

Platinum
Platinum is denser and so heavier than white gold. Because it is almost pure,
(typically 95%) it tends not to cause allergic reactions. It is more expensive
to have modified than white gold – this is because the skill-set and equipment
needed to handle this tougher metal is different and more unusual. The benefits
of platinum for setting a diamond might be worth the extra cost compared to
gold, according to these benefits: platinum doesn’t usually require any sort of
plating; it doesn’t ‘tarnish’ but gets many fine scratches on its surface – these
can be polished out with no loss of metal. This means that over many years gold
rings will eventually get thinner with polishing and wear, while platinum rings will
be the same weight. Check before buying that polishing platinum is doable by
your jeweller.

If the overall aim is lightness in the ring, with ease of changing sizes (i.e. every
average jeweller can approach it) and a super white look with cheaper costs at
the outset, white gold is a good option. If you’re more interested in avoiding the
maintenance issue of white gold, and willing to pay for the greater longevity of
the ring upfront, platinum is a good choice. Jewellers will try to push you into
what is easier or cheaper for them to stock or maintain – make the choice
your own!


Aftercare: generalities

It is generally recommended that you have a jeweller check your ring’s
prongs every six months – these things are rarely noticeable until the stone
goes missing! Polishing and replating are required in accordance with the way
you wear the ring, and how your body chemistry affects the rhodium plating
on white gold (platinum needs to be repolished rather than replated in most
cases). You might be lucky and not have to do any of this too often. As for
cleaning: warm water, liquid soap and a gentle toothbrush can always do the
trick.


Redressing the balance: going for gold online and abroad

If the ring you or your girlfriend wants is more complicated than that easily
bought online, what moves can you make to get a
good deal aside from bargaining down the price locally? The answer to this is
either plane tickets or importation. We’ll look first at the least physically
demanding option: importing from the States.


Non-letters from America

There are a few ways to tackle the importation prospect. The key thing to
remember is that the item will be taxed according to:

21.5% of (Import duty on (item cost + shipping charges))

Import duties will depend on what the specific item is. According to the EU
tax site, TARIC: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds/cgi-bin/tarchap?Taric=7113110000&Download=0&Periodic=0&ProdLine=10&Lang=EN&SimDate=20091029&Country=

---

&YesNo=1&Indent=1&Action=1#OK


Relevant import taxes are:

• Loose stones, 0%

• Settings without stones, 2.5%

• Finished ring (stone + setting), 2.5%

Example calculation: a finished ring costs $3000 and $150 to ship.
2.5% of the total, $3150, is $79. The taxable amount for VAT is
then $3229. 21.5% of $3229 is $694.


The best way to handle this option depends on exchange rate values on the
day of purchase. For example, if the objective is to set a 1 carat F VS2 GIA
triple Ex (cut, symmetry and polish) with no fluorescence into an unusual
designer setting available in America, we can start out by comparing the
cost of the required diamond on an american website to the same on an irish website. Today (29/10) the difference in cost ex VAT is only $400. By the
time shipping and import taxes are added, it makes better sense to source
the stone on the irish website. If the exchange rate between the Dollar and
Euro should climb towards 2:1, it might be worth importing.

What to expect on delivery when importing

Usually the courier will take your package through customs and pay the
attendant charges and then deliver to you with an invoice for those extra
charges and a set fee (about 20 Euro). If you deal only with reputable
American vendors there won’t be any issues related to incorrect declarations
and so on, which could delay or interrupt the process.

Importing the setting alone

If you decide to buy your stone in Ireland and import the setting from the
US, you will have to supply the exact stats of your stone to the US supplier.
All this information is on the stone’s cert (GIA etc.). Apart from this, you
have to find a jeweller to set your stone into the setting. This can be
problematic as you’d expect. The best way to handle this is to check with an
independent jeweller before the move is made that he’d be willing to set it,
and for how much. Look into insuring against the setting process going
wrong: stones can break during this high-temperature pastime – and there’s
no comeback from your supplier in that case. Going in, make sure you have
the GIA cert to hand. Usually a unique GIA number is inscribed onto the girdle
of your GIA-certified diamond. This might be useful later if you’re in any way
concerned about your diamond – although it takes another unsetting and
special equipment to read the inscription! Despite this, its presence would
make a swap scenario much more unlikely to occur. In the case that your vendor
hasn't had the stone inscribed you can have an independent jeweller verify
that the stone contains the exact same inclusion types and positions as
are identified on the cert.


Importing the full deal

In the case that you decide to import a setting with a stone already in it,
you’ll be in need of a good comprehensive stone-and-setting site.

TBC...

...

Buying Abroad: New York and Antwerp

There are several international spots in which to find good deals on
diamonds. These include New York, Antwerp, Amsterdam and South Africa.
To handle the prospect successfully it is wise to be well informed on current
diamond prices for what you’re after at these locations, and to have a simple
strategy for peace of mind after purchasing.


New York diamond district

The diamond district in New York is a chaotic jewellery bazaar. If buying in a
shop or booth that doesn’t have a multi-million dollar image to protect, make
sure to protect yourself by having the ring independently appraised before
you leave the country. If certified by GIA, IGI, HRD or AGS labs there is less
need to have the piece appraised generally but it still is advisable. In the
case that the cert is from EGL Europe or another unusual lab appraisal is
strongly advised.

Before purchasing make sure that the ring’s return period is long enough to
have it appraised and potentially returned and/or replaced. If buying
uncertified (not recommended) expect there to be some variance between
what the jeweller says and the appraisal results. A general rule of thumb is
to return the item if the jeweller stats are more than one colour or clarity
grade away from the appraiser’s opinion. Your appraiser should have no
trouble in advising you on whether it was a good buy or worth returning
and so on. Here’s a descriptive list of New York area independent appraisers:

http://www.pricescope.com/appraisers_NY.aspx


Antwerp

Heading to the medieval town of Antwerp is an easier and less expensive trip
than New York. To keep things transparent and fair for the foreign consumer,
the Antwerp Diamond High Council has accredited five trustworthy jewellers.
These are listed here: http://www.adja.be/frammembers.htm

Some of the five are not open during the weekend and some require an
advance appointment. Send a few e-mails up front to the vendors you’re
considering for price quotes on your preferred stone type and to make
appointments. On purchasing, make sure your stone is HRD, IGI, GIA or
AGS lab certified. Avoid EGL Europe certified stones – these certs are not
up to standards set by the other labs, and usually indicate that you’re being
overcharged. An example of this would be an EGL Europe certed G VS2 stone
with Excellent cut being later graded by GIA as I SI1 Very good cut, etc. If
possible pay whatever you can muster in cash, as this will entitle you to
a 21% discount!

In all cases it might be necessary to have the ring re-appraised by an
independent appraiser in Ireland for insurance purposes. An example of
such an appraiser is: http://www.dublinjewelleryvaluations.ie/


Before you leave home you can compare and contrast stats and prices
between Blue Nile Ireland, your discounted local independent jeweller or
average jeweller, online American vendors and your Antwerpian contacts and
bargain away at will. It isn’t the most romantic way to go about acquiring a
symbolic piece – but hopefully the non-romance of it will fade, while the
well-chosen diamond will endure

TBC with the "sciency" bit -- how to identify a good candidate from
numbers and plots.

...

AGS ASET images

An ASET (Angular Spectrum Evaluation Tool) image is a map showing areas of
light return intensity in a diamond. The pattern of areas of red, green, blue
and black or white reveal a stone’s full optical symmetry. If interested in
the ‘how’, detailed information is here:

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance


Examples for top-end excellent, excellent/very good, good and poor
cut are:




In general, red and pink indicate strong light return (pink to a lesser degree),
and are dominant in the best cut stones. Green indicates regions of reflected
light and should be less in evidence. Blue/purple indicates dark areas created
by the viewer’s head – this creates contrast pattern in a diamond. Black or
white indicate light loss or ‘leakage’ – areas that return little to no light.

Stones being sold in average jewellers in Ireland would tend to fall into the
‘above average’ and ‘common’ examples. The ‘common’ type cut can be
pleasing to the eye because it maintains quite strong light return with
contrast areas in the right regions – even if not that precisely rendered. The
‘poor’ example represents a total waste of cash in that it has a large green
region around the perimeter of the stone – this means the diamond will look
quite a bit smaller than its actual size in some light conditions. The
blue/purple pattern around the inner area reveals that the stone will have
‘fish eye’ – a dark line running around a bright centre.

So far in Europe only vendors selling high performance stones will generally
have the ability to produce ASET images for you, while most prominent
American online vendors use images like this in order to sell. Two relatively
local high-performance stone sellers are:

http://www.bestdiamonds.co.uk/default.asp (London) and
http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php (Antwerp)


Idealscope

The Idealscope is an ASET forerunner device and generally available to the
public for their excursions to jewellery shops and to test diamonds sent to
them for inspection by online retailers. You can purchase both the
ASET-scope and Idealscope and other kits here:

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_order.asp


A comparison of ASET and Idealscope images for the same diamonds shows
how they relate the same information:




In Idealscope images red indicates all returned light (i.e. both direct and
reflected, red and green on ASET). Black shows areas of obscured light that
create contrast (blue/purple on ASET). This tool is most suitable for judging
light return in round brilliant cuts, while ASET can be used for all types. Both
tools are useful for gauging optical symmetry, contrast pattern precision and
leakage problems areas, and probably a must if your objective is to obtain
the most perfect cut that you can for your cash. Sellers will sometimes have
other imaging or scanning tools available to help you narrow down the cut
choice. These include: Sarin, OGI, Helium, and Isee2. Demand these report
-types from your local diamond dealer in order to push for increased availability


Summing up

The short-format advice condensable from the rest roughly is:

• Research what your requirement is for colour, clarity, size, cut and setting type;
  
  
• Research what this might cost abroad and online to get an idea of the baselines;
  
  
• Make trips to local independent and average jewellers and try to talk them
  down -- the independent jeweller is infinitely more likely to meet your requests;
  
  
• If not successful to the degree you would like, shop online armed with
  knowledge of the right questions to ask, or head abroad to Antwerp or NY.

Best of luck in the hunt for the right ring

Unwilling wrote: »

Should i just KNOW when it is the one - will there ever be DOUBTS

I like the three stone - I am just terrified of paying out this money and then deciding a few months down the line that it's not the one I want.

TBH when we were looking at rings I found two that I really liked above all others. When it came to chosing them I was really stuck because they were both very different; one was a 3 stone understated ring and other was quite blingy. In the end and contrary to what I would've thought I'd like I went for the blingy one. Even as my OH paid for it I was thinking 'have I made a mistake, would I prefer the other one?' but now I love it and so glad I was brave and chose something a little different.

I get lots of compliments on my ring simply because it's not a solitare so it looks a little different.

Also, I see from one of your other posts you said you were attracted to a 3 stone ring which suprised you but the jewellers we went to told us that it happens all the time. Once you start trying on rings you find that maybe the one you thought you liked doesn't look as good on your finger as another one. That was why she showed us lots of different types of rings.

I think that there is a leap of faith especially if you like more than one ring or the style is something very different to your initial idea. I'm sure whichever one you get you'll love it but I understand why you're nervous. It's a big investment for something you'll be wearing every day for years to come.

Hehe, do not be consternated! Being worried about swapping rings out alone is no suprise. The trick is to do it once and do it right -- in which case you can do no better than select a ring both you and your other half know objectively to be the most suitable piece for you. After the proposal it's a sign of commitment and probably just needs time to feel like part of your hand. Good luck

An Ri rua wrote: »

Then you can be sure of the surprise and not have her wake up suddenly with string attached!!!
Hope that helps too.

But what if she wakes up and finds a bone-fide ring sizer on her hand?! :pac:

Great tip, never knew those things existed!