organic farming

Water John · 29-04-2021 10:10pm

Dinzee, if you have sheep, feed the clover seed to them, they'll get it growing, in their dung.

Not sure on the RVP Blue. The grass/red clover mix should be mowed at 7cm and can thus be cut 3 times. I think it was here or somewhere, lad was getting 20 bales/acre/year. I'll set it again next year, having not got it right, last year.
Would be interesting if ordinary sward was cut similarly? The regrowth would be much quicker. There is over 2 weeks lost with the tight mow.

blue5000 · 30-04-2021 12:29pm

Water John wrote: »

Dinzee, if you have sheep, feed the clover seed to them, they'll get it growing, in their dung.

Not sure on the RVP Blue. The grass/red clover mix should be mowed at 7cm and can thus be cut 3 times. I think it was here or somewhere, lad was getting 20 bales/acre/year. I'll set it again next year, having not got it right, last year.
Would be interesting if ordinary sward was cut similarly? The regrowth would be much quicker. There is over 2 weeks lost with the tight mow.

Everything has to be right for establishing red clover. It needs a high pH, field I had it in first has a pH of close to 7, a planner even suggested I use sulphur on it to lower the pH! P and K levels are important too. Germinal had a webinar last night on establishing it, hopefully it will be up on youtube next week. The key point I got from it was that 1 ton of silage DM removes 8kgs of P and 27kgs of K. I honestly don't know where this P and K will come from in an organic system, perhaps deep roots?

Mine was only cut twice a year and it lasted 4 years. But I used to let it go very strong for the 2nd cut so that there was seed in the flower heads, I presume some of them grew. Another problem with it is it's fooking impossible to get a contractor to mow it high enough, if it's cut or grazed tight the clover crown dies off.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmpmI3BqGznJ_vYzrHC2hWA

endainoz · 30-04-2021 3:22pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Everything has to be right for establishing red clover. It needs a high pH, field I had it in first has a pH of close to 7, a planner even suggested I use sulphur on it to lower the pH! P and K levels are important too. Germinal had a webinar last night on establishing it, hopefully it will be up on youtube next week. The key point I got from it was that 1 ton of silage DM removes 8kgs of P and 27kgs of K. I honestly don't know where this P and K will come from in an organic system, perhaps deep roots?

Mine was only cut twice a year and it lasted 4 years. But I used to let it go very strong for the 2nd cut so that there was seed in the flower heads, I presume some of them grew. Another problem with it is it's fooking impossible to get a contractor to mow it high enough, if it's cut or grazed tight the clover crown dies off.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmpmI3BqGznJ_vYzrHC2hWA

I had thought the contractor would look at you funny of you asked them to mow it high. How was the red clover to feed animals though? I keep getting told it's like to let fuel for finishing cattle.

blue5000 · 30-04-2021 6:08pm

endainoz wrote: »

I had thought the contractor would look at you funny of you asked them to mow it high. How was the red clover to feed animals though? I keep getting told it's like to let fuel for finishing cattle.

It's very dark in colour. Youngstock go mad for it but cows prefer ordinary grass silage.

wrangler · 30-04-2021 6:16pm

endainoz wrote: »

I had thought the contractor would look at you funny of you asked them to mow it high. How was the red clover to feed animals though? I keep getting told it's like to let fuel for finishing cattle.

If you lift the blade anything at all above the optimum, the the stubble of the grass that is lying away from you is a disgrace

Water John · 30-04-2021 8:29pm

Half skids is what I used to mow, left the bar level.
Maybe similar to Blue, I think one could rake in some red clover seed in August in year 2 or 3. The grasses in the mix would be much longer lasting.
The grasses in the mix are ones that stand up and don't lie down.

Markcheese · 01-05-2021 8:53pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Thanks Enda...

Some fields would have good clover... over seeding is something I have done in the past, not sure about the success...
Again, with no silage, putting clover in around June time is awkward...

If grass ever starts growing, I might try some sort of mob grazing to walk some grass in.

Seen a few more things I might try as well, see how I get on...

A lot of getting clover ( or clover and grasses , or anything else for that matter ) established is giving it the growing conditions it wants -
Roughly the right ph - a decent p and k level , and light enough on the N ,
Scalp the field , scratch it up a bit , spread the seed - and either roll it , or let the rain get the seeds into contact with the soil- a good damp week (or fortnight) is probably ideal to get it to establish -
Keep the pasture lightly grazed - to keep it open, and let the light onto it -
Ideally it likes to flower at least once during the summer - so it helps if you can close it during the summer for silage
It doesn't like heavy covers over winter -
Like every other plant ( including ryegrass) it likes what it likes -

Prop Joe · 05-05-2021 10:09pm

Hopefully hear back soon

endainoz · 05-05-2021 10:43pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

Hopefully hear back soon

Keep in mind this is a department scheme, it took months last time.

JohnChadwick · 06-05-2021 9:24am

endainoz wrote: »

Keep in mind this is a department scheme, it took months last time.

Months is right. Had just about given up on it myself.

blue5000 · 06-05-2021 11:47am

endainoz wrote: »

Keep in mind this is a department scheme, it took months last time.

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Months is right. Had just about given up on it myself.

A small forest of paperwork with an inspection date in a few weeks has arrived here. Any tips for the inspection?

Germinal's webinar is up on you tube, first half is on white clover, red clover talk starts about 40 minutes in.

Siamsa Sessions · 06-05-2021 1:54pm

317 applications to the organic scheme - image from IFJ attached

endainoz · 06-05-2021 2:35pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

317 applications to the organic scheme - image from IFJ attached

That's surprising, but definitely good news for anyone that applied. Would that cover the amount of money allotted to the scheme this time around?

endainoz · 06-05-2021 2:38pm

blue5000 wrote: »

A small forest of paperwork with an inspection date in a few weeks has arrived here. Any tips for the inspection?

Germinal's webinar is up on you tube, first half is on white clover, red clover talk starts about 40 minutes in.

It's a good time of year to get an inspection to be fair, seen as most animals are outside by now. My first one was more of an instruction of what should be done, they weren't trying to catch me out on anything. A bit thing will be the paper work though, once that's all in order they'll be delighted with you.

Your inspection will likely be a walk through your farm and showing them where GLAS fields are etc.

SouthWesterly · 06-05-2021 2:39pm

For those of you in kerry. Manna organic are doing a farm walk in their place in camp in june

https://www.tickettailor.com/events/farmingfornature/486975

06-05-2021 4:53pm

Dept are out of the blocks stating "strong response" to the scheme.

Hardly when they expected 4-500 and fell fairly far short of that mark.

Prop Joe · 06-05-2021 6:51pm

Organic ration - what are the options?

Limestone Cowboy · 06-05-2021 7:44pm

blue5000 wrote: »

A small forest of paperwork with an inspection date in a few weeks has arrived here. Any tips for the inspection?

Germinal's webinar is up on you tube, first half is on white clover, red clover talk starts about 40 minutes in.

The missus applied in her herd number and had the inspection yesterday. No problems at all and wasn't as bad as she thought it would be.

Water John · 06-05-2021 8:13pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

Organic ration - what are the options?

You start thinking, as little as possible. Haven't bought any but it's pricey, even straight cereals. If you can grow your own at all, do it.
Look at crimping cereal and beans, or have grass/red clover silage.
One farmer sells cereals that he grows and he sees that as best value to him and uses the grass/red clover bales for his own stock.

Numbers applying are suprisingly low. Strange with so many applying into the REAP scheme.

Dinzee Conlee · 06-05-2021 8:23pm

Water John wrote: »

You start thinking, as little as possible. Haven't bought any but it's pricey, even straight cereals. If you can grow your own at all, do it.
Look at crimping cereal and beans, or have grass/red clover silage.
One farmer sells cereals that he grows and he sees that as best value to him and uses the grass/red clover bales for his own stock.

Numbers applying are suprisingly low. Strange with so many applying into the REAP scheme.

I thought it read like you either had to have dairy or tillage to get any kinda high points?

I imagine that put a lot of people off?

Water John · 06-05-2021 8:27pm

317 less 60 (those who stayed organic having failed to get in the last time) means 257 new applicants really.

endainoz · 06-05-2021 8:35pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I thought it read like you either had to have dairy or tillage to get any kinda high points?

I imagine that put a lot of people off?

That was the exact same case last time and loads of people didn't get in. I'm suprised it was so low myself.

tractorporn · 06-05-2021 8:47pm

blue5000 wrote: »

A small forest of paperwork with an inspection date in a few weeks has arrived here. Any tips for the inspection?

Germinal's webinar is up on you tube, first half is on white clover, red clover talk starts about 40 minutes in.

Initial inspection shouldn't be too stressful, the inspector will walk the land, measure the sheds and do a small bit of paperwork. You must have went with the trust as I don't remember much more paperwork than the acceptance letter telling me the start date and the inspector left me a record book.

Water John · 06-05-2021 9:16pm

Yeah the shed space is a key one. I presume your consultant drew a housing plan. Also think of what derogations you may need during the year. I know in the IOA, for example castration is a predictable case, if you have bull calves.
Get rid of any conventional ration or fertiliser and sprays on site. Sort out the drugs cabinet too. Good luck, should be fine, mainly guidance the first time. Remember they want you as a member, there not looking to hinder you.

manjou · 06-05-2021 9:35pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

Organic ration - what are the options?

If you buy in 26kg bags very dear but there ate guys selling straights or combi crop that are cheaper in bulk or ton bags and work out not to bad.

manjou · 06-05-2021 9:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dept are out of the blocks stating "strong response" to the scheme.

Hardly when they expected 4-500 and fell fairly far short of that mark.

You could not apply for reaps if you were im or applying for organic scheme so handier money if on smaller acerage

Siamsa Sessions · 07-05-2021 9:29am

Any idea what stopped people applying for the organic scheme?

* Assumption only dairy/tillage will be accepted
* Extra paperwork/inspections
* Lack of routes to market or no new markets identified

I’m only stating what put me off here, but would be interested to know if others had other reasons.

Is it likely to open again when numbers were so low?

endainoz · 07-05-2021 10:00am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Any idea what stopped people applying for the organic scheme?

* Assumption only dairy/tillage will be accepted
* Extra paperwork/inspections
* Lack of routes to market or no new markets identified

I’m only stating what put me off here, but would be interested to know if others had other reasons.

Is it likely to open again when numbers were so low?

But again all these factors were in play last time out aswell, I have no idea if it will open again.

07-05-2021 10:16am

manjou wrote: »

You could not apply for reaps if you were im or applying for organic scheme so handier money if on smaller acerage

Yes, but it's the dept themselves that make these rules and know the figures beforehand - then they manage to under-delivered on participants. That's a failure of policy.

JohnChadwick · 07-05-2021 10:37am

I intend on applying for REAP in 2023 while being in the final year of the Organic Scheme.

This could all be totally totally wrong, but my thinking is that I will be able to pick up the flat rate payment €1200 and tree/hedge planting payment €1200 in 2023 (€2400 max) without affecting my Organic payment. And hope that when I'm finished in the Organic Scheme that from 2024 onwards I can pick up this plus the rest of the payment for LIG/MSL of around €7k max.

Figure based on this article https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/reap-what-will-farmers-have-to-do-to-get-paid/

organic farming

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