organic farming

JohnChadwick

I intend on applying for REAP in 2023 while being in the final year of the Organic Scheme.

This could all be totally totally wrong, but my thinking is that I will be able to pick up the flat rate payment €1200 and tree/hedge planting payment €1200 in 2023 (€2400 max) without affecting my Organic payment. And hope that when I'm finished in the Organic Scheme that from 2024 onwards I can pick up this plus the rest of the payment for LIG/MSL of around €7k max.

Figure based on this article https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/reap-what-will-farmers-have-to-do-to-get-paid/

blue5000

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Any idea what stopped people applying for the organic scheme?

* Assumption only dairy/tillage will be accepted
* Extra paperwork/inspections
* Lack of routes to market or no new markets identified

I’m only stating what put me off here, but would be interested to know if others had other reasons.

Is it likely to open again when numbers were so low?

I suppose you have to break it down into the different enterprises. Tillage guys can’t see a way to control weeds without spraying.
Dairying can’t grow grass without lorry loads of fertiliser.
Beef systems like slats, can’t build lie back areas and buy straw at €25 a bale. Just my 2 cents.

wrangler

blue5000 wrote: »

I suppose you have to break it down into the different enterprises. Tillage guys can’t see a way to control weeds without spraying.
Dairying can’t grow grass without lorry loads of fertiliser.
Beef systems like slats, can’t build lie back areas and buy straw at €25 a bale. Just my 2 cents.

Growing organic oats for Flahavans seem to be a good payer, but you have to have your rotation right to control disease and weeds.
Alternatively you could do what our neighbour is doing , selling his oats himself at €3500/ton or oats in biscuits at €20000/ton for the biscuits.

https://kilbegganorganicfoods.com/

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

Growing organic oats for Flahavans seem to be a good payer, but you have to have your rotation right to control disease and weeds.
Alternatively you could do what our neighbour is doing , selling his oats himself at €3500/ton or oats in biscuits at €20000/ton for the biscuits.

https://kilbegganorganicfoods.com/

Good for him, having a chat on Twitter and I'm getting told farmers can't do processing :pac: I call it the "grass ceiling".

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

Good for him, having a chat on Twitter and I'm getting told farmers can't do processing :pac: I call it the "grass ceiling".

Aren't I always saying farmers should sell their own stuff instead of whingeing at the people that do sell it.
I like his porridge but I wouldn't pay that for it, I don't eat porridge but Kilbeggan has something different.

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

Aren't I always saying farmers should sell their own stuff instead of whingeing at the people that do sell it.
I like his porridge but I wouldn't pay that for it, I don't eat porridge but Kilbeggan has something different.

Farmers needn't even sell it themselves, start up a business and bring in expert help via ownership % in the processing. There's a "stuck" mindset where farmers can't do business, that's for other people. But, farmers get to complain so I suppose that's something.

Water John

A structured option for milk and its products would be the main hindrance to dairy. Only 61 in the country TMK. Flat price of 50c isn't great now in comparison to conventional producer with good solids. So an organic dairy farmer looking at OAD would be really losing out.
There is an opening for one of the existing conventional processors to look at a nationwide organic milk pool, similar to the one in France. It would be a clever way to expand business. Some of the infant fomula is moving in that direction, which is logical.
There is more options with tillage and meat. Neither is a perishable product. Pat Lalor doing a good job. Flahavans is an option, I'm using myself. A few lads doing direct selling on the beef side, the other option is factory.

manjou

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, but it's the dept themselves that make these rules and know the figures beforehand - then they manage to under-delivered on participants. That's a failure of policy.

If you had choice between reaps and organics reaps would be a better choice as easier for money. If i have to choose between staying in organic scheme and going for reaps in 2 years the way it is at moment then would go resps and still stay organic but not in organuc scheme.

Prop Joe

manjou wrote: »

If you had choice between reaps and organics reaps would be a better choice as easier for money. If i have to choose between staying in organic scheme and going for reaps in 2 years the way it is at moment then would go resps and still stay organic but not in organuc scheme.

Could you not do both?

manjou

manjou wrote: »

If you had choice between reaps and organics reaps would be a better choice as easier for money. If i have to choose between staying in organic scheme and going for reaps in 2 years the way it is at moment then would go resps and still stay organic but not in organuc scheme.

I'm ruled out for organics via the qualification system, in other words I'm not who they want. I'm ruled out of reap as I have both commonage and heather. So I have the choice between neither

That aside, farming paper money isn't my top priority. Whether I would chose one or none would depend entirely on how the requirements of a scheme might conflict with my context. Every farm is different.

Dinzee Conlee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm ruled out for organics via the qualification system, in other words I'm not who they want. I'm ruled out of reap as I have both commonage and heather. So I have the choice between neither

That aside, farming paper money isn't my top priority. Whether I would chose one or none would depend entirely on how the requirements of a scheme might conflict with my context. Every farm is different.

Are you selling direct Herd?

Dinzee Conlee

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Are you selling direct Herd?

That's part of the plan yeah. There's a million and one bits of evidence where farmers get to suffer and either or both of processors/sellers reap large margins from those raw materials. Part of the flaw is farmers thinking they must do it all, part of it is subtle regulation which falls against the small business.

Dinzee Conlee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's part of the plan yeah. There's a million and one bits of evidence where farmers get to suffer and either or both of processors/sellers reap large margins from those raw materials. Part of the flaw is farmers thinking they must do it all, part of it is subtle regulation which falls against the small business.

Direct is the way to go I think, if you can make it work for you.
Having said that, lot of work at the start I suspect, getting your customer base started...

I’d be interested to hear how you get on, so do keep us updated...
Edit : and best of luck with it

blue5000

I think the way to go would be a small (10-15 members) in a co-op/central processing area. Bit like a producer group.

Dinzee Conlee

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Direct is the way to go I think, if you can make it work for you.
Having said that, lot of work at the start I suspect, getting your customer base started...

I’d be interested to hear how you get on, so do keep us updated...
Edit : and best of luck with it

Regardless of product, distribution and repeat custom are the two most important aspects imo. I've seen many good ideas fail due to the farmer doing it all and killing themselves because there isn't enough hours in the day, particularly with deliveries which are intensely time consuming.

Water John

Depends on the product but there are plenty distribution systems available if the product being shipped has some value. Another better option is, making the customer come to you.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Depends on the product but there are plenty distribution systems available if the product being shipped has some value. Another better option is, making the customer come to you.

Prop Joe

Awaiting date for inspection,What will they look for most?

endainoz

I'll tell you in a half an hour, my inspection is due to happen shortly. But from previous inspections, they'll walk the land with you, look at where you store your dung, your housing situation etc. It should be a bit easier this time of year with animals outside in fairness.

Base price

The latest scheme has be under subscribed -
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/organics-sector-being-failed-as-latest-scheme-heavily-undersubscribed-icsa-621562

endainoz

Happy to say the inspection went grand, delighted to say I'm fully converted and fully certified organic! In fairness my experiences with the inspectors have been grand. They're not out to get you or to catch you out.

blue5000

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

317 applications to the organic scheme - image from IFJ attached

Base price wrote: »

The latest scheme has be under subscribed -
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/organics-sector-being-failed-as-latest-scheme-heavily-undersubscribed-icsa-621562

Last week's news BP:D

But they do raise some interesting points. There's only 61 dairy organic farms and about 1200 beef/drystock organic farmers. Of the 317 applicants 60 are people that didn't get in the last time, but there are existing organic farmers who have applied to convert more land to organic included in the 317 also.

People in GLAS can't claim organic payment on LIPP and THM areas, personally I don't have a problem with that, but I can see where people who are in GLAS, which let's face it is a lot simpler than going organic, would have a problem. When you do the maths going organic might not be attractive.

I suppose ICSA felt that more beef and sheep farmers could have got in if the points system wasn't weighted against them.

Quick question, is there organic bird cover seed available?

endainoz

blue5000 wrote: »

Last week's news BP:D

But they do raise some interesting points. There's only 61 dairy organic farms and about 1200 beef/drystock organic farmers. Of the 317 applicants 60 are people that didn't get in the last time, but there are existing organic farmers who have applied to convert more land to organic included in the 317 also.

People in GLAS can't claim organic payment on LIPP and THM areas, personally I don't have a problem with that, but I can see where people who are in GLAS, which let's face it is a lot simpler than going organic, would have a problem. When you do the maths going organic might not be attractive.

I suppose ICSA felt that more beef and sheep farmers could have got in if the points system wasn't weighted against them.

Quick question, is there organic bird cover seed available?

I couldn't find any before, but it's easy to get a derogation for conventional seed.

Water John

Blue I assume you mean Glas Wild Bird Cover? I used organic oats seed plus organic mustard seed.
The only organic oats varieties that might be available this year would be the ones not required by Flahavans. I used Apollon last year. I also used an annual flower mix, not required but a personal choice, but that wasn't purely organic and needed a derogation for the 3kg!!!

Base price

Fruit Hill Farm sell organic cereal seed - https://www.fruithillfarm.com/seeds-and-propagation/green-manures-and-forage-crops/forage-crops.html

glanman

endainoz wrote: »

Happy to say the inspection went grand, delighted to say I'm fully converted and fully certified organic! In fairness my experiences with the inspectors have been grand. They're not out to get you or to catch you out.

Well done on full conversion.

We have our first inspection coming up. There will be things that will be fails, eg slats not bedded etc. Will they tell us what needs to be corrected and let us work on them. By the sounds of your post they would?

Mooooo

Wouldn't be too confident on support re conversion to organics seeing as this is one of the suggestions they think may help in the climate action plan. Can be damn sure processors and retail margin wont be hit.

JohnChadwick

Is there likely to be some sort of 'maintenance payment' for organic farmers who have completed the 5 year scheme?

Siamsa Sessions

Mooooo wrote: »

Wouldn't be too confident on support re conversion to organics seeing as this is one of the suggestions they think may help in the climate action plan. Can be damn sure processors and retail margin wont be hit.

Hard to get your head around that type of cheaper, cheaper, cheaper thinking. Where in the name of god do they think it will end???

Siamsa Sessions

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hard to get your head around that type of cheaper, cheaper, cheaper thinking. Where in the name of god do they think it will end???

Tbh it's us farmers at fault for it, we know it's going on and keep producing. You know what they say about meeting an ass.