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16-10-2019, 08:31   #31
Niallof9
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Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.
And whats wrong with that. Defeat to Japan and now because of that abject failure, perhaps New Zealand hardly quantifies as a success. So Farrell has to hit the ground running, unless we achieve our minimum target of a semi.

Jesus lads some scary talk on here. Seems like you guys have forgotten the emergence of people like Furlong (no starts in 2015 wc) and Ryan (only distant talk), Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose etc. Loads of players could be viable options by 2023 - Penny, Deegan, wycherley by 2, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Milne, French, Healy, Casey, COB, Frawley and god knows who else and thats not even taking into consideration Lowe, Gibson Park, Marshall, Butler etc and then you have people Joe didn't fancy like McCloskey and one or two others.

Can we stop with all the denial. There will be big changes over the coming years. And Farrell will be lauded if he did take a few chances.

We need to forget four year cycles and we need to rejig the central contracts.

But we 100 per cent need to freshen things in the coming 18 months. I can't believe there is people even suggesting sticking with the status quo. Its mind boggling.

As much as i'm willing Ireland to win on Saturday in our heart of hearts we all know whats going to happen. As QUinlan said losing to Japan (as good as they turned out) will be a stain on this World Cup if we go out at quarters.

If we do manage a semi, Andy Farrell can come into the top job with plenty of good will and time.

The basis of a good team is there. Conway, Dillane, Larmour, Joey (maybe fullback) all should get their head in the coming year regardless. Since the days of Eddie we've had far too many undroppables.

Last edited by Niallof9; 16-10-2019 at 08:42.
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16-10-2019, 15:11   #32
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As mentioned above there's players Joe didn't use too much which would indicate a change of style.

I'd say alot will be down to the new attack coach and whatever style he takes. He is currently with Italy so it will be hard to judge.

I'd like to see a few new faces introduced and blooded into the squad even if we sacrifice a couple of six Nations and see from there
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16-10-2019, 17:29   #33
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The backrow will be interesting. POM and Stander are at an age and field position where their participation in 2023 is questionable. Rhys Ruddock has been good when called upon but he is also in the same age bracket.
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16-10-2019, 17:42   #34
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I would expect that this squad from the RWC will stay together into the 6 Nations, after doing so much work together over the summer it would make sense to maximise their return up to that point.
The 2020 tour to Australia with a tier 2 country (Fiji perhaps) would be the next obvious opportunity to try out some new players. I would expect anyone that is not going to feature in the 2021 6 Nations would be let go for that tour and for the Autumn matches.
Rory Best will be gone after this RWC.
Rob Kearney, Sean Cronin, and Johnny Sexton should be left behind next Summer.
Keith Earls and Cian Healy are borderline, would probably leave Earls and take Healy.

So we'd be looking at 2 new hookers, a new 10, a new wing, and a new fullback.

We are most of the way there already really,
Hooker: Scannell, Herring and one other; possibly Rhys Marshall or Bryan Byrne.
10: Carbery, Carty and Byrne
Wing: Stockdale, Conway and one other; Dave Kearney or possibly Darren Sweetnam, Adam Byrne or Robert Baloucoune.
Fullback: Larmour and one other; Addison or possibly Haley.

I can't see Devin Toner or Sean O'Brien getting back into the squad anymore.
Perhaps Dan Leavy can make a miraculous recovery.

There could be a bit of change in the backups in a few positions, for example, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux, Gavin Thornbury, or Kieran Treadwell might feature as locks, Finlay Bealham, Marty Moore or Eric O'Sullivan as tight-head props, Jack McGrath or James Cronin as Loose-head props, or back-rows such as Max Deegan, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea or Paul Boyle.
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16-10-2019, 19:11   #35
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The backrow will be interesting. POM and Stander are at an age and field position where their participation in 2023 is questionable. Rhys Ruddock has been good when called upon but he is also in the same age bracket.
Ruddock has significantly less international miles on the clock than POM and CJ, that can add years to a career.
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16-10-2019, 23:44   #36
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And whats wrong with that. Defeat to Japan and now because of that abject failure, perhaps New Zealand hardly quantifies as a success. So Farrell has to hit the ground running, unless we achieve our minimum target of a semi.

Jesus lads some scary talk on here. Seems like you guys have forgotten the emergence of people like Furlong (no starts in 2015 wc) and Ryan (only distant talk), Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose etc. Loads of players could be viable options by 2023 - Penny, Deegan, wycherley by 2, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Milne, French, Healy, Casey, COB, Frawley and god knows who else and thats not even taking into consideration Lowe, Gibson Park, Marshall, Butler etc and then you have people Joe didn't fancy like McCloskey and one or two others.

Can we stop with all the denial. There will be big changes over the coming years. And Farrell will be lauded if he did take a few chances.

We need to forget four year cycles and we need to rejig the central contracts.

But we 100 per cent need to freshen things in the coming 18 months. I can't believe there is people even suggesting sticking with the status quo. Its mind boggling.

As much as i'm willing Ireland to win on Saturday in our heart of hearts we all know whats going to happen. As QUinlan said losing to Japan (as good as they turned out) will be a stain on this World Cup if we go out at quarters.

If we do manage a semi, Andy Farrell can come into the top job with plenty of good will and time.

The basis of a good team is there. Conway, Dillane, Larmour, Joey (maybe fullback) all should get their head in the coming year regardless. Since the days of Eddie we've had far too many undroppables.
I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.
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17-10-2019, 08:02   #37
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I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.
The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.
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17-10-2019, 08:38   #38
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The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.
There isn’t really any problem. Irish coaches since Eddie O’Sullivan took over have all gotten sufficient time.

I don’t see any substance behind calls for a four year plan, more than half the New Zealand back line made their debuts in 2018/2019 and that’s with a coaching ticket who have been involved in back to back World Cup wins.

Think that gives us some hope and might be a problem for them but it just proves that every country largely focuses on the short term without some plan that builds specifically for the World Cup, New Zealand have tended to use the tri nations/ rugby championship in World Cup years for some experimentation but every other year they are focused on winning it and winning all their games.

Wouldn’t at all agree with giving anyone four years guaranteed. Farrell will get until the end of 2021 season at a minimum but you can’t guarantee anyone four years.
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17-10-2019, 08:49   #39
Niallof9
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I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.
I'm not for 4 year cycles at all. I think its foolish, particularly as we seem to fail at most World Cups.

I completely disagree, lose on Saturday (i hope we don't) and he already is under serious pressure. He's the assistant coach. If it didn't count why did he get the heave with England...cause he's part of it. So he's already under the kosh. He needs to be bold, and i would certainly back him then if he took that path. IF he continued on with the same 14 minus best that would be probably it for me.We need some change. Continuing on if this squad gets defeated on Saturday will not go down well with anybody. There will be serious repercussions imo as the reality sets in about losing to Japan and the destiny that followed that loss etc, and that we were looking for a South Africa quarter (as difficult as that would be, they aren't as good as people are making out)

No way some of the lads can stay in. Conway deserves a decent shout, Larmour becomes first choice. More game time for Joey. Hooker. Healy looks wrecked but is still World Class.

So look yeah it picks itself at times. But we need to really look at some lads in competitive games. Leavy to come back.

Thankfully after 2016/17 Joe did become more of a risk taker in selection.
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17-10-2019, 08:59   #40
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The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.
And some plonkers will defend the status quo to the death (as we saw in soccer with the FAI and Mick now), when its clear to 99 per cent of people that something is wrong and change is needed.

Nobody wants anybody sacked but some of us want to see real change, particularly after defeat to Japan. Look i hope to **** we win on saturday and Farrell comes in on a high, the players love him and he has free reign. But we probably all know its a bridge too far. And then we have to turn back to what happened. We lost to Japan and Andy Farrell's fingerprints were all over it.

So four years for Farrell regardless of results

good luck with that

Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what? For me the former is acceptable if players are picked on form and not international contracts. The latter would make me switch off altogether. The problem with Catt is it seemed rushed and poorly judged. We have better coaches in the provinces and while Italy play a little better, its ****ing Italy. Its a giant step up.

I'm hardly a lone voice here. Catt's appointment at the time was muted and questioned by more than one scribe. Coaches pathway? what happened to that? There's already people looking at the succession plan as a reason. While people dismiss the Schmidt leaving thing and cite Gatland...Pivac isn't sitting in on the Welsh team as well is he now. Its a mistake and rushed for me; typical like rewarding former coaches and soccer managers before tournaments with new contracts.

so away with calling people plonkers.

Hopefully it all works out on Saturday and people like me come off looking very very foolish.

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 09:05.
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17-10-2019, 09:08   #41
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I'm not for 4 year cycles at all. I think its foolish, particularly as we seem to fail at most World Cups.

I completely disagree, lose on Saturday (i hope we don't) and he already is under serious pressure. He's the assistant coach. If it didn't count why did he get the heave with England...cause he's part of it. So he's already under the kosh. He needs to be bold, and i would certainly back him then if he took that path. IF he continued on with the same 14 minus best that would be probably it for me.We need some change. Continuing on if this squad gets defeated on Saturday will not go down well with anybody. There will be serious repercussions imo as the reality sets in about losing to Japan and the destiny that followed that loss etc, and that we were looking for a South Africa quarter (as difficult as that would be, they aren't as good as people are making out)

No way some of the lads can stay in. Conway deserves a decent shout, Larmour becomes first choice. More game time for Joey. Hooker. Healy looks wrecked but is still World Class.

So look yeah it picks itself at times. But we need to really look at some lads in competitive games. Leavy to come back.

Thankfully after 2016/17 Joe did become more of a risk taker in selection.
Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your point re status quo, thought you meant in terms of sacrificing six nations to go with a ‘four year plan’.

Think some player turnover is inevitable but yeah it will be interesting to see what Farrell does, I guess Lancaster’s England team that he and Catt were part of played more expansive, but he didn’t enjoy the same success with that as he has with Schmidt. Would suspect there won’t be massive shift in style but only time will tell.
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17-10-2019, 09:47   #42
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Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what?
You're stating this as if these are the only 2 possible outcomes. What happens if he begins some incremental change, and remains competitive?

Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.
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17-10-2019, 09:48   #43
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You're stating this as if these are the only 2 possible outcomes. What happens if he begins some incremental change, and remains competitive?

Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.
well i disagree if it ends badly on Saturday. Badly for me is not being competitive on the day on top of Japan defeat and all that on top of everything that happened after the win against New Zealand.

If that transpires and he makes some change as i said i'll applaud it and be happy. Incremental change is seeing more options been tried and not just going with the undroppables. Like if Larmour isn't the 15 on the opening day of the Six Nations i think he'll have lost already. Kearney is the right man for Saturday but his race is run now in green.

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17-10-2019, 09:59   #44
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And some plonkers will defend the status quo to the death (as we saw in soccer with the FAI and Mick now), when its clear to 99 per cent of people that something is wrong and change is needed.

Nobody wants anybody sacked but some of us want to see real change, particularly after defeat to Japan. Look i hope to **** we win on saturday and Farrell comes in on a high, the players love him and he has free reign. But we probably all know its a bridge too far. And then we have to turn back to what happened. We lost to Japan and Andy Farrell's fingerprints were all over it.

So four years for Farrell regardless of results

good luck with that

Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what? For me the former is acceptable if players are picked on form and not international contracts. The latter would make me switch off altogether. The problem with Catt is it seemed rushed and poorly judged. We have better coaches in the provinces and while Italy play a little better, its ****ing Italy. Its a giant step up.

I'm hardly a lone voice here. Catt's appointment at the time was muted and questioned by more than one scribe. Coaches pathway? what happened to that? There's already people looking at the succession plan as a reason. While people dismiss the Schmidt leaving thing and cite Gatland...Pivac isn't sitting in on the Welsh team as well is he now. Its a mistake and rushed for me; typical like rewarding former coaches and soccer managers before tournaments with new contracts.

so away with calling people plonkers.

Hopefully it all works out on Saturday and people like me come off looking very very foolish.

I was waiting for the reference to podcast or press


Quick one, you do realize the press have it in for everything IRFU at the moment because they started up their own channel and media. It was discussed in-depth on a couple of the podcasts. You miss that one?

Ever since that decision the press have flicked....so making reference to the press saying a new appointment is wrong is probably not the best source

I have mentioned this a few times but seems your incapable of making up your own mind so will leave you to it.....


P.S. yes you are calling for him to be sacked.....before we have even finished the current World Cup, what is that about?
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17-10-2019, 10:15   #45
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well i disagree if it ends badly on Saturday. Badly for me is not being competitive on the day on top of Japan defeat and all that on top of everything that happened after the win against New Zealand.

If that transpires and he makes some change as i said i'll applaud it and be happy. Incremental change is seeing more options been tried and not just going with the undroppables. Like if Larmour isn't the 15 on the opening day of the Six Nations i think he'll have lost already. Kearney is the right man for Saturday but his race is run now in green.
What if we lose by 13 on Saturday, and he just makes the following changes for the 6 Nations:
- Larmour and Scannell starting.
- Conway into the 23 jersey.
- Carbery starting against Scotland and Italy.
- Changes in the backrow, but only because of injury.

but retains the rest of the squad, and we win 4 out of 5 matches. Would you consider that a success?
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