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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

13567…199

Comments

  • #102
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I think it's more likely than not that we won't make the playoffs and I think the game on Saturday is 50-50, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if we find out whether or not that is enough to see the management seek out a replacement, I doubt it would be.

    It's too late at this stage to start that process anyway surely?


  • #103
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    It's too late at this stage to start that process anyway surely?

    I don't think it'd be too late purely because the position is prestigious enough to attract candidates out of current employment, but it would be far from ideal. I suppsoe if MOC resigns his position then they would need to start the process. But by all accounts the squad are fully behind him so that doesn't seem at all a likelihood.


  • #104
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Here's one for SOL

    http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/brian-odriscoll-unrealistic-leinster-fans-expect-too-much-31112627.html


  • #105
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yeah, I think the real problem is finding those players. Leinster need a 9 and are trying to find one but I don't think there's much out there. It's a big need for us though so I hope they're willing to shell out for it.

    As for utility backs, I think it's quite rare that one who can cover at 10 is ever able to bring much in the position, if Isa does come back as a player/coach that might be our slot used there though I suppose.

    8 weeks ago you said that there were loads!

    Coming around to my scepticism?


  • #106
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    8 weeks ago you said that there were loads!

    Coming around to my scepticism?

    In fairness, he said there were loads at Peter Stringer's level, and there are, but long term we need more than that.


  • #107
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    total former wrote: »
    In fairness, he said there were loads at Peter Stringer's level, and there are, but long term we need more than that.

    I think trying to organise a long term signing at 9 is important, however I don't think we're going to get anyone in September that we'd like to have for 3 years.

    What we 'want' is someone who could be a fringe international at RWC15, and subsequently decides that that was their last chance, and want to earn some cash before retirement.
    We basically want Whitaker again.

    None of those type of players are going to move pre-RWC though, and given that we want cover during the RWC & 6Nations, we will only be after a 9 for this season that wont be near those competitions.


  • #108
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I think trying to organise a long term signing at 9 is important, however I don't think we're going to get anyone in September that we'd like to have for 3 years.

    What we 'want' is someone who could be a fringe international at RWC15, and subsequently decides that that was their last chance, and want to earn some cash before retirement.
    We basically want Whitaker again.

    None of those type of players are going to move pre-RWC though, and given that we want cover during the RWC & 6Nations, we will only be after a 9 for this season that wont be near those competitions.

    Yeah agree with all that.

    I suppose it all depends on the assumption that Reddan plays on after the world cup. Given how often he's injured this season, he may not. If he does retire then our needs become very different.


  • #109
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I went to the OTB event in Drogheda last night. Good craic and a free beer thrown in too, can't go wrong.

    On this weekend, Neil Back was the only one of the final panel (BOD, GT and Hogan also) who thinks Bath will win. But BOD did admit earlier that he doesn't expect us to click as a side and that players coming back from international duty will not be on the same wavelength. He spoke about how in earlier seasons there was a game or two to get back into it and this is going to be a difficult one.

    The winning of the game will be in the mental approach and the leadership, they felt. BOD namechecked Heaslip and Kearney as being the two guys that will come back into the camp this week and get the lads focussed and demanding higher standards and aggression.


  • #110
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    8 weeks ago you said that there were loads!

    Coming around to my scepticism?

    No not at all. I'm talking about guys who can start in Europe here. You're taking that quote completely out of context. I showed you examples of guys who are better currently than Stringer, I've no interest in that calibre of player and I hope Leinster management are setting their sights a little higher.

    If they can't find someone then a stopgap will do I suppose. But I would be very worried.


  • #111
    padser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    Ignoring peoples personal opinions on whether or not it's warranted, how far do you think we are from chants of of 'MOC out" in the RDS?

    It would be a huge change in the RDS to see it, I'd worry we might see it if we lost to Bath and were then trailing in a Pro12 game by double scores at home.....


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  • #112
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    That won't happen.

    At worst you'll have people in the Anglesea muttering under their breath that MOCs continued presence is souring the taste of their fine bottle of prosecco.


  • #113
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Isa is the guy who kicks the bin and then throws it across the dressing while shouting.

    Ah mental as in nuts.


  • #114
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No not at all. I'm talking about guys who can start in Europe here. You're taking that quote completely out of context. I showed you examples of guys who are better currently than Stringer, I've no interest in that calibre of player and I hope Leinster management are setting their sights a little higher.

    If they can't find someone then a stopgap will do I suppose. But I would be very worried.

    Okay, that makes a bit more sense. But I still stand by the idea that there really are no 'level above' players that we'd want to tie into a 3 year contract that will be looking for a move from September onwards.

    And in that situation, we're looking for a Stringer / Mike Blair 'please mind this shirt and give McGrath some support and guidance' signing to give us a little breathing space & time until the 'almost-internationals' are available the following season.

    In that regard, signing an IQ player means that we're not going to step on anyones toes, or annoy anyone (not that we really will anyway) when it comes to getting a big name NIQ in the same position the following season.

    Every time I think of the situation I wonder why Cooney was allowed go to Connacht tbh. I'd have been more than happy with himself and McGrath for the 5/6 games during the RWC tbh.


  • #115
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    padser wrote: »
    Ignoring peoples personal opinions on whether or not it's warranted, how far do you think we are from chants of of 'MOC out" in the RDS?

    It would be a huge change in the RDS to see it, I'd worry we might see it if we lost to Bath and were then trailing in a Pro12 game by double scores at home.....

    I hope we don't ever become a team that's governed by the fans.

    Whilst I know the above comment is offensive to some, the truth is the fans don't have the same sort of insight or knowledge or understanding as to what's going on, even the most educated and articulate of them.

    A part of me would die if Dawson succumbed to cries of 'MOC out' and sacked him because it wasn't sitting right with the fans. They're a professional team.


  • #116
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    There are ex-internationals available who are in far better shape than Stringer though, on a level above.

    Plucking one out of the air, what about Andrew Ellis? He's playing in Japan. He's a 31 year old ex-AB. There's a couple more in Japan if I remember right. I know Leinster were looking at someone younger but there are a few guys capable of starting for us about.


  • #117
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Every time I think of the situation I wonder why Cooney was allowed go to Connacht tbh. I'd have been more than happy with himself and McGrath for the 5/6 games during the RWC tbh.

    Step 1: Loan Cooney to Connacht
    Step 2: Get Cooney back for, oooh a week or so, to convince Connacht that we really value him and they're lucky to have him.
    Step 3: Sign Kieran Marmion, tell Connacht they'll be grand, sure don't they have Cooney?
    Step 4: Laugh maniacally, preferably in some sort of underground lair.


  • #118
    RuggieBear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,958 ✭✭✭✭RuggieBear


    total former wrote: »
    Step 1: Loan Cooney to Connacht
    Step 2: Get Cooney back for, oooh a week or so, to convince Connacht that we really value him and they're lucky to have him.
    Step 3: Sign Kieran Marmion, tell Connacht they'll be grand, sure don't they have Cooney?
    Step 4: Laugh maniacally, preferably in some sort of underground lair.

    Step 5: Play Issac Boss anyway


  • #119
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    #Justice4Willis


  • #120
    padser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    .ak wrote: »
    I hope we don't ever become a team that's governed by the fans.

    Whilst I know the above comment is offensive to some, the truth is the fans don't have the same sort of insight or knowledge or understanding as to what's going on, even the most educated and articulate of them.

    A part of me would die if Dawson succumbed to cries of 'MOC out' and sacked him because it wasn't sitting right with the fans. They're a professional team.

    Sorry but I think that's a little naive (assuming you believe this is the case now as opposed to this being an idealistic "how I'd like it to be" statement).

    Ultimately all teams (exception being ones that are privately owned and thus don't need money from fans) are governed by fans.

    Dawnson has to keep fans coming through the turnstiles. In the short term (a matter of months) he can ignore fan demands and say "I know best" but in the medium term (ie around 1 cycle of season tickets) he will have to change coach if it's damaging revenue.

    All clubs are fan governed at the end of the day


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  • #121
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    padser wrote: »
    Sorry but I think that's a little naive (assuming you believe this is the case now as opposed to this being an idealistic "how I'd like it to be" statement).

    Ultimately all teams (exception being ones that are privately owned and thus don't need money from fans) are governed by fans.

    Dawnson has to keep fans coming through the turnstiles. In the short term (a matter of months) he can ignore fan demands and say "I know best" but in the medium term (ie around 1 cycle of season tickets) he will have to change coach if it's damaging revenue.

    All clubs are fan governed at the end of the day
    Fans are like shareholders, they are effectively ignored for day-to-day purposes but if they start making a lot of noise you eventually need to pay attention as they'll vote with their feet and stop coming through the turnstiles.


  • #122
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    padser wrote: »
    Sorry but I think that's a little naive (assuming you believe this is the case now as opposed to this being an idealistic "how I'd like it to be" statement).

    Ultimately all teams (exception being ones that are privately owned and thus don't need money from fans) are governed by fans.

    Dawnson has to keep fans coming through the turnstiles. In the short term (a matter of months) he can ignore fan demands and say "I know best" but in the medium term (ie around 1 cycle of season tickets) he will have to change coach if it's damaging revenue.

    All clubs are fan governed at the end of the day

    No I don't believe this is the case now. Nor do I believe it'll ever be the case, as ofcourse they are professionals and the only thing that'll make MOC feel the heat is results.

    Ofcourse in terms of ticket sales and revenue the fans are the integral part to that turn over, and if we fail to get results then those fans will disappear and ofcourse Dawson will look as to why that's happening and look to address it.

    My point was he's never going to listen to a 'fan revolt', i.e cries of MOC out from the stands.


  • #123
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I'm a firm believer in the MOC IN fan group anyway.

    I have heard the new stand at the RDS may in fact be named after him.


  • #124
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    The Welcome Matt?




    :pac:


  • #125
    The_Captain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    padser wrote: »
    Ignoring peoples personal opinions on whether or not it's warranted, how far do you think we are from chants of of 'MOC out" in the RDS?

    It would be a huge change in the RDS to see it, I'd worry we might see it if we lost to Bath and were then trailing in a Pro12 game by double scores at home.....

    Very unlikely, but then the only time Leinster have finished outside the top 3 in the Celtic League has been under Gary Ella. He's going to make himself very unpopular if we doesn't make the play-offs.


  • #126
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    At this stage, would people prefer a HC semi or Pro 12 playoff?


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  • #127
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    It makes me sad that we're 48 hours away from a home European Cup quarter final and all some people want to talk about, or are able to talk about, is getting rid of the coach. I just don't get this mentality.


  • #128
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Sangre wrote: »
    At this stage, would people prefer a HC semi or Pro 12 playoff?

    If there was any other semi (than away to toulon) I'd take the semi. But given its away go toulon I'd take the pro12


  • #129
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I would definitely take a Pro 12 semi final. Were in no shape to make a European run this season, but not placing high in the Pro 12 will directly affect our chances of progressing in Europe next season. I'd happily take a loss to Bath if promised a win over Ulster in return.


  • #130
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    With the squad of players we have (especially O'Brien and Healy returning), I really think anything less than both is a disappointing season


  • #131
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I would definitely take a Pro 12 semi final. Were in no shape to make a European run this season, but not placing high in the Pro 12 will directly affect our chances of progressing in Europe next season. I'd happily take a loss to Bath if promised a win over Ulster in return.
    Yeah I'd agree with that.


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  • #132
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    errlloyd wrote: »
    If there was any other semi (than away to toulon) I'd take the semi. But given its away go toulon I'd take the pro12

    I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.


  • #133
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Synode wrote: »
    With the squad of players we have (especially O'Brien and Healy returning), I really think anything less than both is a disappointing season

    Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

    I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.


  • #134
    padser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    .ak wrote: »
    No I don't believe this is the case now. Nor do I believe it'll ever be the case, as ofcourse they are professionals and the only thing that'll make MOC feel the heat is results.

    Ofcourse in terms of ticket sales and revenue the fans are the integral part to that turn over, and if we fail to get results then those fans will disappear and ofcourse Dawson will look as to why that's happening and look to address it.

    My point was he's never going to listen to a 'fan revolt', i.e cries of MOC out from the stands.

    To be fair, the two things (fan "revolts" as you put it, and declining attendances) are highly correlated events. Assuming Dawson will ignore what fans are saying but then respond once they stop coming through the gates doesn't really make sense.

    It is like saying a CEO in a consumer company would ignore leading indicators of falling profits (like lower footfall, or lower average basket price) because it hadn't yet hit the bottom line. It's unlikely, good CEOs tend to pay attention to those indicators before they start impacting the bottom line (that actually what makes them good indicators).

    We also see this all the time in other sport, clubs in soccer change managers regularly when fans start to voice disapproval. I personally think they so too regularly, but really all they are doing in responding to market pressure. Sport is an entertainment business and the old adage "he who pays the piper calls the tunes" holds true.

    I think Sangres point about fans being like shareholders in some ways makes a lot of sense. It doesn't mean they make day to day decisions, but they have a lot of sway in the medium term into big decisions.


  • #135
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    .ak wrote: »
    I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.
    I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.


  • #136
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    .ak wrote: »
    I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.

    Really? Bit of a sadist? The away semi stacks the deck against us in a major way. I have a feeling we will get exposed in all sorts of awful ways.


  • #137
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Fans are wrong a lot of the time. And luckily Dawson has been in the position he's in enough to be completely aware of that. Fans will turn up when the team wins, and so the best decision he can make is to put the team into the best position for it to win long term, he has a great track record of doing that throughout his time in charge.


  • #138
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    .ak wrote: »
    Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

    I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.

    Accepting defeat before a ball has been passed? I really hope the players aren't thinking like that.

    I still think we'll make the playoffs


  • #139
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Really? Bit of a sadist? The away semi stacks the deck against us in a major way. I have a feeling we will get exposed in all sorts of awful ways.

    Live and die by the sword.

    Any any given Sunday we're capable of beating anyone in the world. We're obviously misfiring as a team and there are issues from the ground up, but we're not that far off settling and all the players we have are capable of going toe to toe with the best.

    Also, I'd love to beat them. They're becoming the new Clermont for us, it almost feels like a derby for some reason even though we haven't faced them often. Just something about the last 4 years sharing the spoils of war between the two teams... it's a real grudgematch, even if we are far apart in terms of form.

    Yeah... Beating them in the South of France when everyone has written us off is the stuff dreams are made of.


    ... thing is we'll struggle to get there in the first place, such is Bath's form.


  • #140
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Not really exclusive to this thread but one of the worst decisions/changes EPCR made was to have the quarter and semi-finals two weeks apart instead of the previous three. It puts a lot more pressure on supporters to organise travel.


  • #141
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Synode wrote: »
    Accepting defeat before a ball has been passed? I really hope the players aren't thinking like that.

    I still think we'll make the playoffs

    I'm sure the players don't think like that, but that's not what the discussion is about, is it?

    Our (the fan's) expectations don't have to match the player's.


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  • #142
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    .ak wrote: »
    Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

    I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.

    So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.


  • #143
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.

    I don't want to drunkenly swap my Leinster shirt for a Toulon one again.

    I looked like a sad washed up Nascar Car as I wandered back to the hotel that evening :(


  • #144
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.

    Don't you do that in terrace now anyway?


  • #145
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Tox56 wrote: »
    So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.

    By what definition?

    EDIT: Just for the record, I'd be very disappointed if it didn't come to pass, but my point is my expectations are cooled by the limitations and issues the team currently face.


  • #146
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.

    Personally I think we are 50/50 to win this game. I'm going to be disappointed if we don't win but I won't be shocked. Do you think we're a considerably better team than this Bath team at the moment? If so, you should be unhappy if we lose, but you are also valuing things differently to myself and others.


  • #147
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    .ak wrote: »
    Don't you do that in terrace now anyway?

    No I'm a quiet little lamb who never says a word or ruffles any feathers.


  • #148
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Not really exclusive to this thread but one of the worst decisions/changes EPCR made was to have the quarter and semi-finals two weeks apart instead of the previous three. It puts a lot more pressure on supporters to organise travel.

    Yeah it's brutal, but it's a side effect of the English and French leagues deciding that their play-offs would take centre stage.

    There's a good chance the semis will feature three French teams so they might still get good crowds anyway.


  • #149
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    Bookies price us as 66% likely to win, which I'd make a little strong but not too over the top.

    Teams that are 2/1 to win games do so all the time! Wouldn't be a shock at all if we don't beat Bath, we're not in great shape at the minute really. Not a vintage season by any stretch of the imagination.


  • #150
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    .ak wrote: »
    Live and die by the sword.

    Any any given Sunday we're capable of beating anyone in the world. We're obviously misfiring as a team and there are issues from the ground up, but we're not that far off settling and all the players we have are capable of going toe to toe with the best.

    It's kinda funny that within about 5 posts I suggested you were delusional and Synode gave out to you for writing us off.

    Sadly I don't think this team can perform on any given Sunday. I don't think gopperth has ever put in a toulon beating performance for Leinster. And that's not to say I'd call for Madigan to start at ten. It's just that I think that all the great battles won by underdogs had equally great generals. Outhalves in this case who extracted the very best from every player around them.


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  • #151
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Personally I think we are 50/50 to win this game. I'm going to be disappointed if we don't win but I won't be shocked. Do you think we're a considerably better team than this Bath team at the moment? If so, you should be unhappy if we lose, but you are also valuing things differently to myself and others.

    I think we're more like 60/40, we aren't considerably better at all but I think the team we will put out is better, a lot more experienced and we're at home

    But a close loss to Bath in isolation is one thing, being knocked out at home in Europe and not even making the playoffs in the league (our first time outside the top 3 in eleven years) would be appalling, and I don't think that's a case of fan expectations being unrealistic. It's not even like we've been particularly unlucky in the league, so far we've pretty much got what's coming to us


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