Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

BoardsMember · 01-04-2015 3:02pm

Buer wrote: »

Worst team could be fun....will be incredibly harsh on one or two people though.

David McAllister, Brendan Burke, Johnny Hepworth, Matt Leek, John McWeeney (because of that game against Biarritz), Eddie Hekenui, Chris Keane, Aidan Kearney, Owen Finnegan, Des Dillon (for being a huge waste of talent) Ed O'Donoghue, Steven Sykes, Fosi Pala'amo, Harry Vermass, Juan Gomez

Shiver....not sure we need to re-visit some of that car crash stuff.

total former · 01-04-2015 3:05pm

Buer wrote: »

Worst team could be fun....will be incredibly harsh on one or two people though.

Ah you'd need parameters on it though. Like, can you really compare the failure of world-cup winner Owen Finegan to the non-success of journeymen nobodies like Matt Leek or Harry Vermaas? Otherwise it's just a competition to see who can remember the most obscure names.

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 3:07pm

total former wrote: »

Ah you'd need parameters on it though. Like, can you really compare the failure of world-cup winner Owen Finegan to the non-success of journeymen nobodies like Matt Leek or Harry Vermaas? Otherwise it's just a competition to see who can remember the most obscure names.

And what about the likes of Sean McCarthy who was signed but has never (and almost certainly will never) play for the seniors? I think there's a difference between the most disappointing and the worst that should be made.

01-04-2015 3:08pm

Buer wrote: »

Worst team could be fun....will be incredibly harsh on one or two people though.

David McAllister, Brendan Burke, Johnny Hepworth, Matt Leek, John McWeeney (because of that game against Biarritz), Eddie Hekenui, Chris Keane, Aidan Kearney, Owen Finnegan, Des Dillon (for being a huge waste of talent) Ed O'Donoghue, Steven Sykes, Fosi Pala'amo, Harry Vermass, Juan Gomez

He's still living off his SCT medal.

Scored 100% of the final's points single-handedly.

With one score.

Buer · 01-04-2015 3:09pm

Clearlier wrote: »

One of the difficulties working out a worst team is that very often the worst players barely had a look in. Anyone remember Tony Goldfinch?

It tends to be the way, alright. But in a number of cases, they didn't get much of a look in because they simply were so bad in their appearances (Pala'amo, Vermass, Gomez, Hepworth etc.)

There are guys in my selection that are there simply because they were the worst we had, in my opinion, but were actually not bad players. Chris Keane had a good pro career but we never really had very bad scrum halves (or very good).

The wingers are probably the hardest done by. McWeeney is always remembered harshly but he picked up an international start against NZ at 21 years old. He just faded and quit when he was very young. Burke would be fondly remembered if he played elsewhere. We just had incredibly strong wing options for most of the professional era.

And, no, not a clue about Tony Goldfinch! 5'5"?! I'm assuming he wasn't the greatest?

Buer · 01-04-2015 3:11pm

total former wrote: »

Ah you'd need parameters on it though. Like, can you really compare the failure of world-cup winner Owen Finegan to the non-success of journeymen nobodies like Matt Leek or Harry Vermaas? Otherwise it's just a competition to see who can remember the most obscure names.

Yeah, I wouldn't select anyone who just had a couple of caps. That would be silly. I think people would remember all of the names I went with. McAllister is possibly the least recognisable; the back 3 was tricky.

Similarly, I wouldn't consider BT for our greatest side.

padser · 01-04-2015 3:19pm

Buer wrote: »

Worst team could be fun....will be incredibly harsh on one or two people though.

David McAllister, Brendan Burke, Johnny Hepworth, Matt Leek, John McWeeney (because of that game against Biarritz), Eddie Hekenui, Chris Keane, Aidan Kearney, Owen Finnegan, Des Dillon (for being a huge waste of talent) Ed O'Donoghue, Steven Sykes, Fosi Pala'amo, Harry Vermass, Juan Gomez

No Clint???

LostArt · 01-04-2015 3:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

He's still living off his SCT medal.

Scored 100% of the final's points single-handedly.

With one score.

Was just talking about that game this morning

.ak · 01-04-2015 3:20pm

padser · 01-04-2015 3:25pm

total former wrote: »

I don't know if Hines was a better player and he certainly wasn't a "much" better player, but Leinster wouldn't have been a shadow of what they were without Cullen. Thorn was a better player than either of them but that's not really what we're discussing. Leo for me every day of the week.

I said if we are talking about overall contribution over a number of years I can live with Cullen over Hines but I had thought we were talking about greatest XV ie best XV we could put on a pitch.

Yeah I thought about Thorn and he was immense but I think Hines was up there with him. No question for me the three locks (2 starting, 1 benching) would be Hines, Thorn and MOK.

In terms of playing ability, at their peak for Leinster, we can argue about what the "much" means in "much better" but ten times out of ten, you pick Hines over Cullen.

total former · 01-04-2015 3:27pm

It's been said before but Clint did exactly what he was signed to do; filled a jersey for a couple of months when we had quite literally no-one else. He wasn't a bad signing.

Buer · 01-04-2015 3:28pm

padser wrote: »

No Clint???

Compared to the guys I went with, Clint was a hero, I think. He was derided while he was here but I think he was someone that actually didn't do that badly. He clearly became a good bit fitter and was even trusted by Schmidt to come on in big HEC games.

TommyOM · 01-04-2015 3:46pm

Clint was grand, was fine in HEC games and wasn't out of place at Rabo level. He is certainly not deserving of being placed alongside the likes of those mentioned so far.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 3:52pm

Newland had a bad reputation because of how out of shape he was, but he wasn't getting his forehead smashed off his knee in the same way Hagan was at times, for example. Then again if we ever saw a foreign player turning out like that they'd probably be shipped off fairly quickly.

total former · 01-04-2015 3:53pm

With possibly five props away at the RWC, maybe we can get him back for a while?

Clearlier · 01-04-2015 3:58pm

Buer wrote: »

It tends to be the way, alright. But in a number of cases, they didn't get much of a look in because they simply were so bad in their appearances (Pala'amo, Vermass, Gomez, Hepworth etc.)

There are guys in my selection that are there simply because they were the worst we had, in my opinion, but were actually not bad players. Chris Keane had a good pro career but we never really had very bad scrum halves (or very good).

The wingers are probably the hardest done by. McWeeney is always remembered harshly but he picked up an international start against NZ at 21 years old. He just faded and quit when he was very young. Burke would be fondly remembered if he played elsewhere. We just had incredibly strong wing options for most of the professional era.

And, no, not a clue about Tony Goldfinch! 5'5"?! I'm assuming he wasn't the greatest?

He was up there with Aaron Freeman (reportedly struggled to make Lansdowne 2nds) in terms of his impact although at 6' 9" and 120kgs size wasn't Freeman's problem. I remember them both better as example of imports gone wrong than for anything that they every did on the pitch to be honest.

TBH I have got fond memories of Burke! A real trier (no pun intended) who was small and not very quick but somehow slipped tackles and scored tries. He went over to 2nd level English rugby IIRC. As an example of a forgotten man Paddy Galvin played ten times for Leinster at the start of the professional era but I just can't remember him at all.

As for scrum halves I feared for the safety of Derek Hegarty every time that he took the ball into contact and he did it often enough because his pass wasn't untypical of Irish scrum halves at the time. I vaguely remember Kevin Putt playing for us for a while and being somewhat unimpressive.

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 4:17pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Newland had a bad reputation because of how out of shape he was, but he wasn't getting his forehead smashed off his knee in the same way Hagan was at times, for example. Then again if we ever saw a foreign player turning out like that they'd probably be shipped off fairly quickly.

His forehead wasn't smashing off his knee because he spent his entire time here upright with his forehead as far away from his knee as was possible. Even at scrum time. The mother-in-laws partner nicknamed him Snow Patrol, because every time he came out of the scrum he had snow on him he'd been up so high.

But yeah he wasn't the worst.

The_Captain · 01-04-2015 4:31pm

Is the worst/best list based on forum during their Leinster tenure or their overall career peaks?

On Leinster form, CJ would have to be in the running for worst

TommyOM · 01-04-2015 4:53pm

The_Captain wrote: »

Is the worst/best list based on forum during their Leinster tenure or their overall career peaks?

On Leinster form, CJ would have to be in the running for worst

He wasn't as good as he could have been when you consider his reputation and lots of injuries and a slow start meant that Leinster didn't get close to the best out of him but he played HEC games and played well for the most part.

SaveOurLyric · 01-04-2015 8:30pm

RuggieBear wrote: »

Interesting.

Erm..I mean

Interesting

You're one to talk yourself with your gratuitously provocative, cruel, and yes, trolling, tagline to the thread title. 'Leinster teamtalk/gossip thread IV' would have been just fine. But no. It deserves a kicker. A reminder of the dark times we live in. Do you realise the stress some of us are under at the moment ? The pills we are popping, and psychiatric treatment sessions in progress, just to get ourselves up to go to the game on Saturday ? Trying to forget they doddering hand on the blue tiller. Then 'BAM!'. You remind us.

Thanks etc.

And as you say, Interesting.

.ak · 01-04-2015 8:33pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

You're one to talk yourself with your gratuitously provocative, cruel, and yes, trolling, tagline to the thread title. 'Leinster teamtalk/gossip thread IV' would have been just fine. But no. It deserves a kicker. A reminder of the dark times we live in. Do you realise the stress some of us are under at the moment ? The pills we are popping, and psychiatric treatment sessions in progress, just to get ourselves up to go to the game on Saturday ? Trying to forget they doddering hand on the blue tiller. Then 'BAM!'. You remind us.

Thanks etc.

And as you say, Interesting.

VII will be MOC Awakens (after contract extension).

SaveOurLyric · 01-04-2015 8:40pm

.ak wrote: »

VII will be MOC Awakens (after contract extension).

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhggggggggg !!!!!!!!! :eek:

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-04-2015 8:40pm

Ben Teo and Kane Douglas are the only NIEs contracted so far for next season

That means we can make two signings, one of which should be a project (I dont believe that Ben Teo is a project player despite the fact that he could qualigy for Ireland).

I would expect a signing at 9 (I expect it to be a project player for some reason). Assuming Kirchener leaves we would also likely sign a utility back, possibly one that can play 10as well as the back 3.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 8:44pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ben Teo and Kane Douglas are the only NIEs contracted so far for next season

That means we can make two signings, one of which should be a project (I dont believe that Ben Teo is a project player despite the fact that he could qualigy for Ireland).

I would expect a signing at 9 (I expect it to be a project player for some reason). Assuming Kirchener leaves we would also likely sign a utility back, possibly one that can play 10as well as the back 3.

Yeah, I think the real problem is finding those players. Leinster need a 9 and are trying to find one but I don't think there's much out there. It's a big need for us though so I hope they're willing to shell out for it.

As for utility backs, I think it's quite rare that one who can cover at 10 is ever able to bring much in the position, if Isa does come back as a player/coach that might be our slot used there though I suppose.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-04-2015 8:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, I think the real problem is finding those players. Leinster need a 9 and are trying to find one but I don't think there's much out there. It's a big need for us though so I hope they're willing to shell out for it.

As for utility backs, I think it's quite rare that one who can cover at 10 is ever able to bring much in the position, if Isa does come back as a player/coach that might be our slot used there though I suppose.

Can't see Isa coming back despite rumours. I'm not saying we need god at 10 just someone that can come in or move around if Ross Byrne /Cathal Marsh is having a mare and steady things.

Also I wonder if Ferg has been kicking much recently in training if not included internationally for the rwc he could take some pressure off whoever we have at 10.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 8:56pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can't see Isa coming back despite rumours. I'm not saying we need god at 10 just someone that can come in or move around if Ross Byrne /Cathal Marsh is having a mare and steady things.

Also I wonder if Ferg has been kicking much recently in training if not included internationally for the rwc he could take some pressure off whoever we have at 10.

If he isn't coming back then I do think we'll find it difficult to attract a utility player who can cover 10 of any particular quality. I'd much prefer we found someone who can do one or the other well (and we don't really need back 3 players desperately I suppose).

.ak · 01-04-2015 9:09pm

Was only thinking about it the other day, but do people remember when Madigan never took any kick, Isa or ferg used to take them, any everyone thought he couldn't kick but now he's probably the best kicker in the country.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-04-2015 9:17pm

.ak wrote: »

Was only thinking about it the other day, but do people remember when Madigan never took any kick, Isa or ferg used to take them, any everyone thought he couldn't kick but now he's probably the best kicker in the country.

Remember at one point Leinster had 4 of the top 10 in the golden boot competition, Sexton, Isa, Ferg and Madigan.

To be honest Id expect Ferg to have a better percentage than Gopperth has managed this season.

CatFromHue · 01-04-2015 10:31pm

I never felt it was his goal kicking that was a problem but his kicking from hand.

01-04-2015 10:36pm

Can we find a 9/10 somewhere?

Get Yachvili out of retirement.

wicklowwonder · 01-04-2015 10:51pm

Down the Blind Side a podcast had an interview with Mick Dawson, they just tweeted:

@TheBlindSideIRL
Leinster expected to make an announcement on Isa Nacewa "within the week", - CEO, Mick Dawson http://downtheblindside.com/episode-20/

I haven't had a listen, but seems some announcement is going to be made.

SaveOurLyric · 01-04-2015 11:04pm

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Down the Blind Side a podcast had an interview with Mick Dawson, they just tweeted:

@TheBlindSideIRL
Leinster expected to make an announcement on Isa Nacewa "within the week", - CEO, Mick Dawson http://downtheblindside.com/episode-20/

I haven't had a listen, but seems some announcement is going to be made.

By the way, he has spent his time coaching since he left us.

wicklowwonder · 01-04-2015 11:07pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

By the way, he has spent his time coaching since he left us.

Yeah, I really hope it is as a coach he returns, I can't see him having an influence as a player after two seasons out of the game.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 11:13pm

He's been a "Mental coach," it'd be interesting to know what that means.

If he is announced as a coach within the week then those hoping for a termination of MOC's contract should be pretty worried. If they are shopping around for another coach then appointing more backroom staff is an odd way to be going about it.

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 11:17pm

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Down the Blind Side a podcast had an interview with Mick Dawson, they just tweeted:

@TheBlindSideIRL
Leinster expected to make an announcement on Isa Nacewa "within the week", - CEO, Mick Dawson http://downtheblindside.com/episode-20/

I haven't had a listen, but seems some announcement is going to be made.

A bit of talk about a B&I league. Dawson says they'd be in favour of it, but it'd be hard to get the AP guys on board unless a broadcaster came with a package looking to drive it. He talks a bit about improving the Pro12 by targetting the brand and TV market. Mentions the Welsh having to bring players home and the Scots having to get more through the turnstiles with Edinburgh having to be more competitive.

Dodged the question on MOC when Fanning asked him if he went "all Michael Cheika" on MOC given the results throughout the 6 Nations.

Says Isa is a possibility but they are talking to a number of foreign players and an announcement on foreign players will hopefully be made during the week.

Spoke about a learning curve during his time there and specifically said that they think they are there or thereabouts, but that still doesn't mean they get it right all the time.

The Leinster Way is a plan they have for managing the provincial set-up from schools all the way up. Apparently not only are the other provinces looking at the set-up, but English clubs are over looking at it as well. There seems to be concerns over younger players getting poached early. It's up to Leinster to make sure they hold onto the best of them.

Dawson agreed with meritocracy in the Pro12. With the money in the French and English game it's a tougher environment for Pro12 teams but he think the big Pro12 clubs should still be in with a shout, but it's important to get the commercial elements sorted to ensure that remains.

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 11:19pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's been a "Mental coach," it'd be interesting to know what that means.

If he is announced as a coach within the week then those hoping for a termination of MOC's contract should be pretty worried. If they are shopping around for another coach then appointing more backroom staff is an odd way to be going about it.

Dawson specifically spoke about players during the Isa bit so I'm not sure he'd be coming in as a coach. He's Mental Skills coach, which from what I read is almost an Enda Falvey type role. So he's not teaching actual rugby skills. Unless of course it's a different type of mental they're talking about.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 11:25pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Dawson specifically spoke about players during the Isa bit so I'm not sure he'd be coming in as a coach. He's Mental Skills coach, which from what I read is almost an Enda Falvey type role. So he's not teaching actual rugby skills. Unless of course it's a different type of mental they're talking about.

I was under the impression it was a mental approach sort of role, analysis and decision making etc. But maybe you're right, if it is I wonder how he ended up in going that direction.

CatFromHue · 01-04-2015 11:26pm

Isa is the guy who kicks the bin and then throws it across the dressing while shouting.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 11:44pm

Also interesting how he was so quick to point out that he agreed with the English and French after such an embarrassingly leading question... but maybe best to not dwell on that bit...

CatFromHue · 01-04-2015 11:49pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also interesting how he was so quick to point out that he agreed with the English and French after such an embarrassingly leading question... but maybe best to not dwell on that bit...

I think he's always been in favour of meritocracy and change in the Pro12, on the record too.

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2015 11:51pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think he's always been in favour of meritocracy and change in the Pro12, on the record too.

He has been, which is why it was an odd way to frame the question, maybe they had forgotten that point.

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 11:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I was under the impression it was a mental approach sort of role, analysis and decision making etc. But maybe you're right, if it is I wonder how he ended up in going that direction.

It could be either I suppose. Possibly even a bit of both. Or he could just be teaching them some of the mental skills we've seen him produce before....

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also interesting how he was so quick to point out that he agreed with the English and French after such an embarrassingly leading question... but maybe best to not dwell on that bit...

On that......

molloyjh · 01-04-2015 11:59pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Spoke about a learning curve during his time there and specifically said that they think they are there or thereabouts, but that still doesn't mean they get it right all the time.

This was the bit that interested me the most. Obviously we could all debate (possibly endlessly) what he meant but it seemed that regardless of what he did or didn't mean he was thinking of something in particular when he said it.

SaveOurLyric · 02-04-2015 12:01am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's been a "Mental coach," it'd be interesting to know what that means.

While we might benefit from a mental coach, we are all stocked up on "Mental coaches" at the moment thanks.

thomond2006 · 02-04-2015 12:06am

Have you exhausted all the ways you can say you want MOC out? Come on SoL, it's getting a bit old in fairness!

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2015 12:14am

molloyjh wrote: »

This was the bit that interested me the most. Obviously we could all debate (possibly endlessly) what he meant but it seemed that regardless of what he did or didn't mean he was thinking of something in particular when he said it.

Well I don't think it was anything regarding the ERC, as he had very little power over any of that, by design.

I'd imagine he was referring more about financials and those types of negotiations, and particularly what I'd imagine to be the very murky waters of assessing overseas talent and getting deals done with them.

Tox56 · 02-04-2015 12:18am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's been a "Mental coach," it'd be interesting to know what that means.

If he is announced as a coach within the week then those hoping for a termination of MOC's contract should be pretty worried. If they are shopping around for another coach then appointing more backroom staff is an odd way to be going about it.

Unless we lose v Bath I cant see MOC going anywhere at this stage. If we lose a home quarter and fail to make the playoffs I can see it happening but they'll be very reluctant to make changes in a World Cup year

Tox56 · 02-04-2015 12:20am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Come on SoL, it's getting a bit old in fairness!

So is MOC

#Bazinga #MOCout

molloyjh · 02-04-2015 12:28am

Tox56 wrote: »

Unless we lose v Bath I cant see MOC going anywhere at this stage. If we lose a home quarter and fail to make the playoffs I can see it happening but they'll be very reluctant to make changes in a World Cup year

It's a tough one either way. We're going to have to resign ourselves to a lean season given we'll be missing so many guys to the Ireland squad unless we can sign some real talent in a few key positions. Would any coach be able to make a success of next season? Probably not. That's not a reason to avoid bringing someone new in or anything, just something I think we'll need to accept no matter who the coach is.

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2015 12:28am

Tox56 wrote: »

Unless we lose v Bath I cant see MOC going anywhere at this stage. If we lose a home quarter and fail to make the playoffs I can see it happening but they'll be very reluctant to make changes in a World Cup year

I think it's more likely than not that we won't make the playoffs and I think the game on Saturday is 50-50, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if we find out whether or not that is enough to see the management seek out a replacement, I doubt it would be.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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