Samoa V New Zealand, Wed 8/7 SS1 silly am

The Lost Sheep · 04-07-2014 9:44pm #1

The New Zealand Herald is saying Steve Hansen’s side will head to Apia for a Test match in 2015 after an agreement was reached by the two countries’ unions. The clash will most likely take place in July
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/new-zealand-samoa-test-apia-1554986-Jul2014/

Fantastic to see this but should have been done years ago.

Morf · 04-07-2014 9:58pm

It would make more money for Samoa in Auckland but the gesture is more symbolic and good PR for NZ.

Fair play to them anyway.

CatFromHue · 04-07-2014 10:09pm

Can't see the French or English players being released if it's outside the IRB window, which I'm guessing it will be.

umop.episdn · 04-07-2014 10:15pm

About time, shameful that they've refused to play them until now. It should be a regular occurrence so the smaller nations can garner some much needed income, pride & not have to feel like second class rugby citizens

Buer · 04-07-2014 10:55pm

In fairness, NZ have shown more inclination to play the smaller nations than some others. They went and played Japan over there last year making them the only Tri Nations side to play a test away from home against a second tier nation in recent years. They hosted Fiji in the build up to the RWC also.

Australia haven't played a second tier nation since hosting Samoa in the build up to the RWC and South Africa had Samoa over last summer for a test there which was their only game against a lower tier nation in recent times. Samoa are the clear strongest Pacific Island nation in recent years also and the one least in need of a boost (although obviously still good to see) which makes it much less of a gesture from SA and Australia.

irishbucsfan · 04-07-2014 11:05pm

I think there's probably a lot of financial incentive for Samoa to play games in NZ, I can't imagine their union is rolling in cash.

04-07-2014 11:14pm

Morf wrote: »

It would make more money for Samoa in Auckland but the gesture is more symbolic and good PR for NZ.

Fair play to them anyway.

Why fair play to them?

Buer · 04-07-2014 11:21pm

Fair play to them because it's not a money spinner for them at all, nor will it benefit their own team. It will, however, generate massive coverage and excitement in Samoa.

The other three countries that have won the RWC have never played in Samoa either. It's a big development.

Morf · 05-07-2014 12:27am

The host nation cover the expenses of the touring nation usually.

I'm not sure Samoan Union could cover that and make a healthy profit on the gate/ancillary events alone.

That and NZ tend to demand a fee for a lot of their AI tests (for example) anyway.

The Lost Sheep · 05-07-2014 7:27am

Morf wrote: »

It would make more money for Samoa in Auckland but the gesture is more symbolic and good PR for NZ.

Fair play to them anyway.

Wouldn't say fair play to NZ considering the small number of times they have actually played NZ.

Buer wrote: »

In fairness, NZ have shown more inclination to play the smaller nations than some others. They went and played Japan over there last year making them the only Tri Nations side to play a test away from home against a second tier nation in recent years. They hosted Fiji in the build up to the RWC also.

Australia haven't played a second tier nation since hosting Samoa in the build up to the RWC and South Africa had Samoa over last summer for a test there which was their only game against a lower tier nation in recent times. Samoa are the clear strongest Pacific Island nation in recent years also and the one least in need of a boost (although obviously still good to see) which makes it much less of a gesture from SA and Australia.

They've shown more inclination to play Japan where they could get big €€€s but its a disgrace they've never travelled to any of the islands considering the close ties between the islands and NZ.

Buer wrote: »

Fair play to them because it's not a money spinner for them at all, nor will it benefit their own team. It will, however, generate massive coverage and excitement in Samoa.

The other three countries that have won the RWC have never played in Samoa either. It's a big development.

Wouldn't say fair play to them as they should have done this years ago. That NZ have only played Samoa 6 times is a joke.

Buer · 05-07-2014 9:49am

You're holding NZ to a set of standards that you're not holding others to. Australia have a massive Asian population including a strong islander element but have done little in recent years.

A RWC winning side visiting Samoa is great. NZ haven't done as much as they should historically to assist with weaker nations but are rectifying that now. They played Japan last year and are now booked to play in both Samoa and the USA. They've also sent the Junior All Blacks and Maori teams to second tier nations in recent years.

This should be applauded not seen as an opportunity to kick them especially when bugger all else is being done by some of the other top nations.

Tox56 · 05-07-2014 10:53am

Buer wrote: »

You're holding NZ to a set of standards that you're not holding others to. Australia have a massive Asian population including a strong islander element but have done little in recent years.

Or they're held to the same standards and two wrongs don't make a right. From the other side of the world England have played Samoa as many times since 2000 as New Zealand and Australia combined, which is a bit ridiculous, and they play them again this autumn

Buer · 05-07-2014 11:38am

Tox56 wrote: »

Or they're held to the same standards and two wrongs don't make a right. From the other side of the world England have played Samoa as many times since 2000 as New Zealand and Australia combined, which is a bit ridiculous, and they play them again this autumn

To be honest, I have never heard the other tri nations sides copping the flak that NZ get regarding playing second tier nations. If this was Australia or South Africa, I think we all know there would not be the same reaction.

Morf · 05-07-2014 2:03pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Wouldn't say fair play to NZ considering the small number of times they have actually played NZ.

NZ are probably covering their own touring costs which is unusual in rugby which effectively makes this a charity gesture to Samoan Rugby rather than their usual modus operandi i.e. charging the RFU/WRU a million quid (rumoured) for a test.

Why not focus on the fact it's a positive thing now rather than harking back to the past!

CatFromHue · 05-07-2014 2:09pm

There's no real seasonal structure for SANZAR teams to play away to other Southern Hemisphere non SANZAR teams.

The Europeans come down to 1 or 2 SANZAR teams in June and they go up in November to play a few European teams and that's the structure .

This game is being pencilled in at a weird time so I do wonder how successful it'll be but I can't think of any other time that NZ could play a game in Samoa.

CatFromHue · 05-07-2014 2:10pm

Morf wrote: »

NZ are probably covering their own touring costs which is unusual in rugby which effectively makes this a charity gesture to Samoan Rugby rather than their usual modus operandi i.e. charging the RFU/WRU a million quid (rumoured) for a test.

Why not focus on the fact it's a positive thing now rather than harking back to the past!

Is that fee for all games? I thought I read it was just for the Welsh as the game was outside the IRB window.

The Lost Sheep · 06-07-2014 4:40pm

Morf wrote: »

NZ are probably covering their own touring costs which is unusual in rugby which effectively makes this a charity gesture to Samoan Rugby rather than their usual modus operandi i.e. charging the RFU/WRU a million quid (rumoured) for a test.

Why not focus on the fact it's a positive thing now rather than harking back to the past!

Yes its good that New Zealand are going to Samoa but you cant step back from discussing how its going to be their first ever test in the islands considering the shared history of the islands and NZ in all aspects. They should have done this years ago!

CatFromHue wrote: »

Is that fee for all games? I thought I read it was just for the Welsh as the game was outside the IRB window.

Dont think it is for all games but didn't Munster have to pay a fee for the 08 game but it was picked up by Adidas who sponsored both at the time?

Swiwi. · 06-07-2014 6:17pm

It's clear to me that the negative press has taken it's toll, and the NZRFU has caved in. All sorts of politicians and celebrities back home have had their 2c to say on this matter.

I imagine the NZRFU will lose money on this game, but as a token of appreciation for the Samoan contribution to NZ rugby (even if most of that is from Samoans born in NZ) it's probably overdue.

They should play for the the Michael Jones cup or similar, among a host of champion NZ Samoans, Jones still stands head and shoulders above the rest.

Not too much moral high ground though please lads, when was the last time the major 6N sides put out full strength teams in Tbilisi or Bucharest?

thomond2006 · 07-07-2014 9:32am

It's unfortunate the Pacific Islands can't compete financially with other unions. A Pacific Island Super XV team would be great.

Yeah_Right · 07-07-2014 11:03am

Its a great PR exercise. The main reason the ABs would play any of the teams from the Islands in NZ was because the their unions wanted it that way. I'm pretty sure that Tonga, Fiji and Samoa would get the gate from games against the ABs in NZ and that was a lot more revenue than if they hosted the ABs.

I think NZ has a similar arrangement when they tour in the autumn. The NZRU gets a percentage of the gate. Could be wrong though.

I think the timing is due to the RWC. There are no June tours next year and the Rugby Championship is shortened. There will be no break in the Super XV either. So the Samoa game will be the ABs warm up for the RC.

bilston · 07-07-2014 10:37pm

I wouldn't be too critical of NZ for not having been there before. How many times in the last 15 years has a senior Ireland team played in Romania or Georgia? Think we played a WC qualifier in Russia prior to 2003 but that wasn't through choice. All major nations should do more where possible but then again it is a professional sport and money talks.

Swiwi. · 07-07-2014 10:44pm

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't be too critical of NZ for not having been there before. How many times in the last 15 years has a senior Ireland team played in Romania or Georgia? Think we played a WC qualifier in Russia prior to 2003 but that wasn't through choice. All major nations should do more where possible but then again it is a professional sport and money talks.

This is the thing - NZ, like many countries, struggles to keep its players in NZ. Those one-off games v Japan and USA bring in a lot of much needed revenue, whereas a game in Apia won't do that.

I do think it's reasonable for NZ to play a game in the Pacific, and Samoa has definitely been the biggest contributor of the 3 main Pacific Islands to NZ rugby, but I don't see it becoming a regular fixture.

NZ does actually do quite a lot for the Pacific teams, including allowing non-AB eligible players to ply their trade in the ITM and SXV competitions without dispensation required.

If money wasn't the issue (which it most definitely is), I could have seen the SXV become an Australasian competition with Pacific teams, but SANZAR relies on SA broadcasting revenue so that was never going to happen.

The Lost Sheep · 07-07-2014 10:54pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

It's clear to me that the negative press has taken it's toll, and the NZRFU has caved in. All sorts of politicians and celebrities back home have had their 2c to say on this matter.

I imagine the NZRFU will lose money on this game, but as a token of appreciation for the Samoan contribution to NZ rugby (even if most of that is from Samoans born in NZ) it's probably overdue.

They should play for the the Michael Jones cup or similar, among a host of champion NZ Samoans, Jones still stands head and shoulders above the rest.

Not too much moral high ground though please lads, when was the last time the major 6N sides put out full strength teams in Tbilisi or Bucharest?

Of course all top tier nations should be doing more and 6N sides should be going to Tbilisi etc on a regular enough basis but NZ never to have played a full test in one of the islands when rugby is so big in the islands and the close ties between the island nations and NZ.

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't be too critical of NZ for not having been there before. How many times in the last 15 years has a senior Ireland team played in Romania or Georgia? Think we played a WC qualifier in Russia prior to 2003 but that wasn't through choice. All major nations should do more where possible but then again it is a professional sport and money talks.

Yes we haven't done enough but as above that a full ABs side has never played in Samoa is a joke

Swiwi. wrote: »

This is the thing - NZ, like many countries, struggles to keep its players in NZ. Those one-off games v Japan and USA bring in a lot of much needed revenue, whereas a game in Apia won't do that.

I do think it's reasonable for NZ to play a game in the Pacific, and Samoa has definitely been the biggest contributor of the 3 main Pacific Islands to NZ rugby, but I don't see it becoming a regular fixture.

NZ does actually do quite a lot for the Pacific teams, including allowing non-AB eligible players to ply their trade in the ITM and SXV competitions without dispensation required.

If money wasn't the issue (which it most definitely is), I could have seen the SXV become an Australasian competition with Pacific teams, but SANZAR relies on SA broadcasting revenue so that was never going to happen.

By regular how often would you like to see fixtures? Once against each country every few years in Fiji/Tonga/Samoa?

Swiwi. · 07-07-2014 11:26pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

By regular how often would you like to see fixtures? Once against each country every few years in Fiji/Tonga/Samoa?

Personally, I'd rather the Junior ABs make a yearly trip to the Islands, but the Junior ABs last played in 2009 I think.

Maybe the 1st XV in a RWC year as a warm-up is a good idea. At present, there is no way any NZ teams would go to Fiji due to the political situation, I think the NZ government has a sports embargo in place from memory.

But I don't see NZ saying no to June Tours from the 6N countries in favour of touring the Islands.

Unless Samoa has a full strength side (and the 2 countries are apparently working behind the scenes to make sure the French & English clubs release their players), then it could be a bit one-sided.

The Lost Sheep · 22-06-2015 2:01pm

This game will be played in around 2 weeks. Anyone know if its on tv up here anywhere?
Both squads named. Should be super game

total former · 22-06-2015 2:44pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

This game will be played in around 2 weeks. Anyone know if its on tv up here anywhere?

Sky might have it, nothing on their website yet, but it's at 3pm local time, which is 3am Irish time, so that's not ideal for us.

Tim Robbins · 22-06-2015 8:24pm

When are Ireland going to play Portugal in Portugal?

errlloyd · 23-06-2015 11:28am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

When are Ireland going to play Portugal in Portugal?

I take your point, but Samoa are a lot better than Portugal, and rugby is a much more important game in Samoa. The equivalent would be playing more matches in Romania and Georgia.

The Lost Sheep · 23-06-2015 11:32am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

When are Ireland going to play Portugal in Portugal?

I see your point but New Zealand not playing in their neighbours, who are rugby mad, where rugby is the national sport is very different to Ireland not having played a full senior international test in Portugal etc

Tim Robbins · 23-06-2015 4:16pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I take your point, but Samoa are a lot better than Portugal, and rugby is a much more important game in Samoa. The equivalent would be playing more matches in Romania and Georgia.

Yes it would be equivalent if we were robbing lots of Romanian and Georgian players. I think those lads selling the Big Issue could be good at tag :-)

The Lost Sheep · 24-06-2015 1:28pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes it would be equivalent if we were robbing lots of Romanian and Georgian players. I think those lads selling the Big Issue could be good at tag :-)

It wouldn't be the equivalent of that at all Tim....
New Zealand don't "rob" lots of Samoan, Fijian players....

thomond2006 · 24-06-2015 1:55pm

We have an effing project player quota. We can no longer take the moral high ground at any country poaching foreign players.

total former · 24-06-2015 2:00pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

We have an effing project player quota. We can no longer take the moral high ground at any country poaching foreign players.

Ah they're two totally different scenarios.

My moral ground is so high I'm getting a nosebleed, and that's the way I like it.

thomond2006 · 24-06-2015 2:04pm

total former wrote: »

Ah they're two totally different scenarios.

My moral ground is so high I'm getting a nosebleed, and that's the way I like it.

I know, I know...

I just don't like project players.

Tim Robbins · 24-06-2015 10:50pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It wouldn't be the equivalent of that at all Tim....
New Zealand don't "rob" lots of Samoan, Fijian players....

Oh they just coincidentally play for New Zealand because they get more money, I suppose.

The Lost Sheep · 24-06-2015 11:03pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Oh they just coincidentally play for New Zealand because they get more money, I suppose.

Tim name all the players the New Zealanders have "robbed"?
Most who have played for New Zealand moved as kids or teenagers.

Swiwi. · 27-06-2015 10:09pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes it would be equivalent if we were robbing lots of Romanian and Georgian players. I think those lads selling the Big Issue could be good at tag :-)

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It wouldn't be the equivalent of that at all Tim....
New Zealand don't "rob" lots of Samoan, Fijian players....

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Oh they just coincidentally play for New Zealand because they get more money, I suppose.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Tim name all the players the New Zealanders have "robbed"?
Most who have played for New Zealand moved as kids or teenagers.

I ummed and ahhed about whether I waste my time responding to this, on an Irish forum when I no longer live in Ireland, and the forum's appeal is waning. It's like trying to preach to white Alabaman supremists that Blacks are equal, it's pushing shìt uphill stuff. Anyway, according to Tim Robbins the hackneyed cliché is that NZ robs Pacific Island players, and they play for NZ because they get more money. So let's take the current NZ 41 man training squad, of which by my reckoning 11 players have Pacific Heritage

Born & raised in NZ
Charles Piutau
Julian Savea
Ma'a Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Lima Sopoaga
Victor Vito
Keven Mealamu
Charlie Faumuina

I think that entitles them to choose to play for NZ without aspertions. I can't speak for Tim but maybe he feels their brown skin doesn't make them Kiwis?

That leaves
Jerome Kaino - born in American Samoa, moved to NZ aged 4.
Waisake Naholo - born Fiji, moved to NZ as a teenager
Malakai Fekitoa - born Tonga, moved to NZ as a teenager

I think we can discount Kaino. I am prepared to concede that in a parallel universe where playing for Tonga or Fiji had the same prestige as NZ, the latter 2 may well have declared for their countries of birth. The money issue is incorrect though, I have no doubt Clermont-Ferrand would be able to pay more for Naholo then what he'll get staying in NZ. And despite this apparent amazing money, Charles Piutau is heading to Ulster. Of course, players are not forced at gunpoint to decalre for NZ, players like Kahn Fotuali'i (born Auckland, NZ) have declared for the Pacific teams.

Now let's look at Tim's Irish team. NZ coach Joe Schmidt has named 45 players. I think there are 6 players born outside Ireland. I'm going to reduce that to 5, because there is no question Jamie Heaslip is Irish, and not robbed from another country, or playing for more money.

Mícheál Bent - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 26 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Isaac Boss - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 25 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Gearoid Payne - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged aged 25 (the IRFU project player system - you know when players are specifically targetted to qualfiy for Ireland by being here for 3 years). Chance of playing for NZ - possible, might have made an extended squad, chance of being a regular starting XV player - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Roibeard Herring - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 22 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Risteard Strauss - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 23 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - probably zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

In fact, there were 45 players born in NZ who didn't wear black at the 2011 RWC.

I have to say Tim, with Ireland now being a good team with depth, I'm not sure you need your NZ and SA imports TBH. And please don't tell me that if Naholo & Fekitoa were Irish project players, you'd say no.

Now, if they had had the choice would Boss, Payne & Bent have played for NZ or Ireland? Would Strauss & Herring have preferred the Springboks? Is the project player system not really just poaching?

Podge_irl · 27-06-2015 10:37pm

You're missing the main point here Swiwi, which is that NZ are consistently awesome and we're not. Therefore we can do whatever the hell we want.

A team being as consistently successful as NZ will have people trying to both understand how they manage it and trying to tear them down. NZ being so good has to have something more to it than just it being their national sport, all the kids growing up playing it and thus having a larger pool of generally well skilled players. They have to be doing something illicit, because they're just too damn good.

Also, I hate the project player system with an unbridled passion.

This has shifted off point somewhat however. You would like to think NZ would play in Samoa, Fiji etc more often but we're hardly beacons of forward thinking in that regard ourselves. I've read before that the island teams make more money from playing NZ in NZ than in their own stadia. I'd like to think from time to time money could be taken out of it and NZ would play there just "for the good of the sport". But ultimately its a business these days and I don't see a lot of other teams doing this kind of thing. Again, NZ get more **** simply because they're super successful and easy to dislike.

Swiwi. · 27-06-2015 11:02pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're missing the main point here Swiwi, which is that NZ are consistently awesome and we're not. Therefore we can do whatever the hell we want.

A team being as consistently successful as NZ will have people trying to both understand how they manage it and trying to tear them down. NZ being so good has to have something more to it than just it being their national sport, all the kids growing up playing it and thus having a larger pool of generally well skilled players. They have to be doing something illicit, because they're just too damn good.

Also, I hate the project player system with an unbridled passion.

This has shifted off point somewhat however. You would like to think NZ would play in Samoa, Fiji etc more often but we're hardly beacons of forward thinking in that regard ourselves. I've read before that the island teams make more money from playing NZ in NZ than in their own stadia. I'd like to think from time to time money could be taken out of it and NZ would play there just "for the good of the sport". But ultimately its a business these days and I don't see a lot of other teams doing this kind of thing. Again, NZ get more **** simply because they're super successful and easy to dislike.

Well, of course NZ is a tall poppy when it comes to rugby, and I've no doubt NZ's success contributes to the criticism. You won't see Tim (or anyone else) protesting about Samoa including 15 NZ-born players in their 2011 RWC squad. All countries currently play by the rules, and I think virtually all of the forum feels the rules need changing. I hope Tim visits NZ in 2017 for the Lions series, if he goes to Auckland, he'll see why it's the capital of Samoa: more NZ Samoans live in NZ than Samoan Samoans in Samoa.

From the NZRFU's point of view, money is always in short supply, to stave off the raids from, well, the Irish provinces among others. With a limited supply of games each year, a loss-making fixture in the Pacific is hardly appealing, unfortunately the NZRFU can't afford to be a charity. When was the last time an English full strength side played outside of England against a non 6N/4N country (excluding RWCs)? And shouldn't Australia (who probably have more Pacific Island born players in their team than NZ) also be touring Samoa?

Personally, I think Ireland should drop the project system - there are enough good players coming through, it's not needed.

Podge_irl · 27-06-2015 11:19pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Personally, I think Ireland should drop the project system - there are enough good players coming through, it's not needed.

You are most certainly not going to find my disagreeing. I find the whole thing offensive.

To follow the theme of the thread, I would like to see Ireland play an actual test match in Georgia. But it would need to be fully supported by World Rugby so that all the best Georgian players are available or its just pointless.

duckysauce · 28-06-2015 2:32am

Swiwi. wrote: »

I ummed and ahhed about whether I waste my time responding to this, on an Irish forum when I no longer live in Ireland, and the forum's appeal is waning. It's like trying to preach to white Alabaman supremists that Blacks are equal, it's pushing shìt uphill stuff. Anyway, according to Tim Robbins the hackneyed cliché is that NZ robs Pacific Island players, and they play for NZ because they get more money. So let's take the current NZ 41 man training squad, of which by my reckoning 12 players have Pacific Heritage

Born & raised in NZ
Charles Piutau
Julian Savea
Ma'a Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Lima Sopoaga
Victor Vito
Keven Mealamu
Charlie Faumuina

I think that entitles them to choose to play for NZ without aspertions. I can't speak for Tim but maybe he feels their brown skin doesn't make them Kiwis?

That leaves
Jerome Kaino - born in American Samoa, moved to NZ aged 4.
Waisake Naholo - born Fiji, moved to NZ as a teenager
Malakai Fekitoa - born Tonga, moved to NZ as a teenager

I think we can discount Kaino. I am prepared to concede that in a parallel universe where playing for Tonga or Fiji had the same prestige as NZ, the latter 2 may well have declared for their countries of birth. The money issue is incorrect though, I have no doubt Clermont-Ferrand would be able to pay more for Naholo then what he'll get staying in NZ. And despite this apparent amazing money, Charles Piutau is heading to Ulster. Of course, players are not forced at gunpoint to decalre for NZ, players like Kahn Fotuali'i (born Auckland, NZ) have declared for the Pacific teams.

Now let's look at Tim's Irish team. NZ coach Joe Schmidt has named 45 players. I think there are 6 players born outside Ireland. I'm going to reduce that to 5, because there is no question Jamie Heaslip is Irish, and not robbed from another country, or playing for more money.

Mícheál Bent - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 26 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Isaac Boss - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 25 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Gearoid Payne - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged aged 25 (the IRFU project player system - you know when players are specifically targetted to qualfiy for Ireland by being here for 3 years). Chance of playing for NZ - possible, might have made an extended squad, chance of being a regular starting XV player - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Roibeard Herring - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 22 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Risteard Strauss - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 23 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - probably zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

In fact, there were 45 players born in NZ who didn't wear black at the 2011 RWC.

I have to say Tim, with Ireland now being a good team with depth, I'm not sure you need your NZ and SA imports TBH. And please don't tell me that if Naholo & Fekitoa were Irish project players, you'd say no.

Now, if they had had the choice would Boss, Payne & Bent have played for NZ or Ireland? Would Strauss & Herring have preferred the Springboks? Is the project player system not really just poaching?

Born & raised in NZ
Charles Piutau
Julian Savea
Ma'a Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Lima Sopoaga
Victor Vito
Keven Mealamu
Charlie Faumuina

how many of those will play in the WC ?

Swiwi. · 28-06-2015 5:59am

duckysauce wrote: »

Born & raised in NZ
Charles Piutau
Julian Savea
Ma'a Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Lima Sopoaga
Victor Vito
Keven Mealamu
Charlie Faumuina

how many of those will play in the WC ?

I suspect I know where you are wanting to lead with this question, but anyway, I take you at face value.

Faumuina, Mealamu, SBW, Nonu, and Savea are certainties.

Vito is probably in direct competition with Liam Messam for his spot, I'd give it to Vito, but would be cruel on Messam who also missed out on 2011.

Piutau is in a heck of a battle with Cory Jane, Israel Dagg and the 2 newcomers Nehe Milne-Skudder and Waisake Naholo for a back 3 spot. It is assumed Ben Smith and Julian Savea are certainties. With Colin Slade and Beauden Barrett also able to play 15, it is very competitive. On form, NMS and Naholo should travel, but both uncapped. I have no idea who will win that race.

Sopoaga is the least likely to travel, no fault of his own, but I think the selectors will go with Carter, Barrett and Slade. He could well see more action in 2016, with Carter and Slade heading to France, and Barrett looking at playing 7s, leaving Cruden, himself and maybe Damian McKenzie battling it out. Sopoaga is the only uncapped player out of your list above, if it helps you.

So that answers your question anyway...

sydthebeat · 28-06-2015 10:44am

so for teh craic cos ive nothing better to be doing...

The Manu Samoa selectors have named 58 players in their wider training group and selection pool for the 2015 campaign including the World Cup.

Forwards: Albert Anae (Treviso), Aniseko Sio (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Perenise (Bristol), Jake Grey (Samoa A), James Johnston (Saracens), Logovii Mulipola (Leicester Tigers), Sakaria Taulafo (Stade Francais), Viliamu Afatia (Agen), Andrew Williams (Samoa A), Maatulimanu Leiataua (Aurillac), Tii Paulo (Clermont), Wayne Ole Avei (Bordeaux), Teofilo Paulo (Cardiff Blues), Maselino Paulino (Samoa A), Kane Thompson (Newcastle Falcons), Iosefa Tekori (Toulouse), Faatiga Lemalu (Sannix Blues), Daniel Leo (London Irish), Alafoti Faosiliva (Bath), Faifili Levave (Toyota), Francis Ieremia (Samoa A), Jack Lam (Bristol), Maurie Fa'asavalu (Oyonnax), Ofisa Treviranus (London Irish), Oneone Faafou (Samoa A), Peter Saili (Bordeaux), Peter Semeane (Samoa A), Taiasina Tuifua (Bordeaux), Tala James Ioane (Sale Sharks), Vavae Tuilagi (Carcassonne).

Backs: Jack Taulapapa (Wellington), Kahn Fotuali’i (Northampton), Peleifofoga Cowley (Auckland), Vavao Afemai (Samoa A), Michael Stanley (Ulster), Patrick Fa’apale (Samoa A), Tusiata Pisi (Suntory), Alapati Leiua (Wasps), Anitelea Tuilagi (Newcastle), Faialaga Afamasaga (Samoa A), Faleniu Iosi (Samoa A), George Pisi (Northampton), Johnny Leota (Sale), Reynold Lee Lo (Hurricanes), Winston Stanley (Northland), Ah See Tuala (Northampton), Alesana Tuilagi (Newcastle), Alofa Alofa (La Rochelle), David Lemi (Bristol), Ken Pisi (Northampton), Paul Perez (Natal Sharks), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Wasps), Sinoti Sinoti (Newcastle), Henry Suau’u (Samoa A), Faatoina Autagavaia (Nevers), Paul Williams (Stade Francais), Tim Nanai Williams (Chiefs), Titi Esau (Samoa A).

thats 22 of the samoa 58 wider training squad who were not born in samoa, or 38%. And id expect that the final travelling squad will be closer to 50%.

Swiwi. · 28-06-2015 11:02am

sydthebeat wrote: »

so for teh craic cos ive nothing better to be doing...

The Manu Samoa selectors have named 58 players in their wider training group and selection pool for the 2015 campaign including the World Cup.

Forwards: Albert Anae (Treviso), Aniseko Sio (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Perenise (Bristol), Jake Grey (Samoa A), James Johnston (Saracens), Logovii Mulipola (Leicester Tigers), Sakaria Taulafo (Stade Francais), Viliamu Afatia (Agen), Andrew Williams (Samoa A), Maatulimanu Leiataua (Aurillac), Tii Paulo (Clermont), Wayne Ole Avei (Bordeaux), Teofilo Paulo (Cardiff Blues), Maselino Paulino (Samoa A), Kane Thompson (Newcastle Falcons), Iosefa Tekori (Toulouse), Faatiga Lemalu (Sannix Blues), Daniel Leo (London Irish), Alafoti Faosiliva (Bath), Faifili Levave (Toyota), Francis Ieremia (Samoa A), Jack Lam (Bristol), Maurie Fa'asavalu (Oyonnax), Ofisa Treviranus (London Irish), Oneone Faafou (Samoa A), Peter Saili (Bordeaux), Peter Semeane (Samoa A), Taiasina Tuifua (Bordeaux), Tala James Ioane (Sale Sharks), Vavae Tuilagi (Carcassonne).

Backs: Jack Taulapapa (Wellington), Kahn Fotuali’i (Northampton), Peleifofoga Cowley (Auckland), Vavao Afemai (Samoa A), Michael Stanley (Ulster), Patrick Fa’apale (Samoa A), Tusiata Pisi (Suntory), Alapati Leiua (Wasps), Anitelea Tuilagi (Newcastle), Faialaga Afamasaga (Samoa A), Faleniu Iosi (Samoa A), George Pisi (Northampton), Johnny Leota (Sale), Reynold Lee Lo (Hurricanes), Winston Stanley (Northland), Ah See Tuala (Northampton), Alesana Tuilagi (Newcastle), Alofa Alofa (La Rochelle), David Lemi (Bristol), Ken Pisi (Northampton), Paul Perez (Natal Sharks), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Wasps), Sinoti Sinoti (Newcastle), Henry Suau’u (Samoa A), Faatoina Autagavaia (Nevers), Paul Williams (Stade Francais), Tim Nanai Williams (Chiefs), Titi Esau (Samoa A).

thats 22 of the samoa 58 wider training squad who were not born in samoa, or 38%. And id expect that the final travelling squad will be closer to 50%.

In other words, 22 of the 58 who were born in NZ...

Getting back to the original Q, I think only 2 of the NZ 41 players might not have NZ citizenship: Fekitoa and Naholo. I think you need to live in NZ 5 years to apply for citizenship, so both these 2 are eligible. However, because it is better for French clubs (thomond knows the details) to be Fijian and not NZ, and I don't think you can have dual citizenship with NZ/Fiji, players such as Rococoko and Sivivatu just kept their Fijian passports. I think Fekitoa might now have NZ citizenship, but I suspect Naholo has followed his agent's advice for the reason listed above, and remains Fijian.

total former · 28-06-2015 11:46am

The "poaching" thing is overplayed but there are some serious red herrings being thrown around here.

What NZ (and now France to some extent) do in picking the best talent from the islands as teenagers is completely different to Samoa picking guys who wouldn't have a hope of playing for NZ.

If you want to argue that the situation is exaggerated, fair enough, or that it's all in line with the rules, but it's nonsense to compare the two.

Ditto the Irish project system, it is not, under any sane definition, "poaching". I don't particularly like it myself but it just isn't.

Swiwi. · 28-06-2015 11:59am

total former wrote: »

The "poaching" thing is overplayed but there are some serious red herrings being thrown around here.

What NZ (and now France to some extent) do in picking the best talent from the islands as teenagers is completely different to Samoa picking guys who wouldn't have a hope of playing for NZ.

If you want to argue that the situation is exaggerated, fair enough, or that it's all in line with the rules, but it's nonsense to compare the two.

Ditto the Irish project system, it is not, under any sane definition, "poaching". I don't particularly like it myself but it just isn't.

Except we don't go on poaching raids to the islands total former unless you can provide me with evidence. As I've said before there are several hundred thousand Pacific Islanders already living in NZ (born here). No need to send scouts out, except to Auckland club rugby. Now the schools themselves might offer scholarships etc but that is nothing to do with the nzrfu or the all blacks. Anyway bored of the topic so I leave it at that. Will no doubt cone up again as it does every 1 to 2 months on this forum. Personally, I'm happy the nzrfu doesn't have a project player scheme in place.

total former · 28-06-2015 12:12pm

NZ schools sending scouts to the islands and giving a "scholarship" to a 17 year old rugby prodigy is exactly what I'm talking about.

The Pheasant2 · 28-06-2015 12:12pm

Swiwi (or anyone who wants to) would you take a shot at a possible NZ 23 for this?

Swiwi. · 28-06-2015 12:22pm

total former wrote: »

NZ schools sending scouts to the islands and giving a "scholarship" to a 17 year old rugby prodigy is exactly what I'm talking about.

I'll be honest I have zero idea of how much of this takes place. I know fekitoa approached Wesley college himself, Naholo went to a school in wanganui. Maybe you know more about how much Auckland schools look outside their indigenous Polynesian population, I genuinely don't know. In any case a 41 man all black squad has 2 players who moved to NZ as teenagers. Not players tearing it up at adult level who were then shoulder tapped by the nzrfu.

Edit: as you are one of the posters who tends to like fact over surmising, have you read or seen somewhere that NZ schools pay for a scout to fly to the Pacific Islands, stay in a hotel, and attend local rugby matches and then offer scholarships?? Just like American colleges, I imagine some NZ schools offer rugby scholarships, but I doubt they actually send people out to the Islands, rather you send in an application. For public schools, there is no way the government would allow such use of funds, and I doubt private schools do either.

Swiwi. · 28-06-2015 2:17pm

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Swiwi (or anyone who wants to) would you take a shot at a possible NZ 23 for this?

Will be fun to see if I'm right!

From 15 to 1: Dagg, Slade, Crotty, SBW, Piutau, Carter, Ellis, Read, Todd, Kaino, Whitelock, Retallick, Franks, Mealamu, Woodcock.

Reserves from 16 to 23: Laulala, Taylor, Crockett, Romano, McCaw, Weber, Moala, ??another outside back

Wang King · 28-06-2015 4:53pm

Again, the real point here imo is being missed.
It's not about poaching per say as the Samoan people in order to work and live move to New Zealand en masse.(someone mentioned why don't we play in Portugal, perhaps if the Portuguese people had emigrated here and made a huge contribution to our club game, then yes, but they haven't ) WC1991 the islanders were not represented in the AB team (I think 1 player had a Samoan mother perhaps) but the physical impact that the Manu Samoa team had on the world cup made everyone stand up and take notice. The powers that be within the AB regime saw that they had this huge untapped resource on their doorstep, and from then on the actively recruited the younger players and brought them thru the system.
I'm sure many players thought they would have long careers in the AB shirt, but the amount of "1 cap" wonders is amazing, we sit here saying that everything is fair and above board..... Lads...read what Samoan players and coaches have written, tweeted etc and you will see the depth of feeling on the subject.
It's been suggested, and I tend to agree, if a player had played 1 or 2 games for the AB's that perhaps they should be allowed play for their ancestral home. It's a bit ridiculous that we expect kids to turn down the financial benefits to both themselves and their families of coming thru the AB system and playing club rugby, and then being discarded because the next Savea has come thru.
Perhaps a cooling off period of 3 years and then you can play for the country you and your parents emigrated from.
To me, its not about poaching, its more to do with a disposable resource that NZ have at their fingertips, get them thru the schools, bring them on, cap em, if they're good, keep em, if not Chuck em and move onto the next batch (I'm being a bit harsh here, but the general point stands) even Bernard Jackman has said this is now in the French game and getting more prevalent.

Samoa V New Zealand, Wed 8/7 SS1 silly am

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