Samoa V New Zealand, Wed 8/7 SS1 silly am

Swiwi.

Podge_irl wrote: »

17 or 18 year olds are also well capable of deciding to go play rugby where they think they'll get the most benefit.

As I think I've shown (maybe unsuccessfuly), the vast majority of Pacific Islandes who play for NZ, are born in NZ and grow up there. Some others come for rugby in their high school years, and some come for rugby and university studies (I imagine a degree from Suva Univeristy has less international appeal than Auckland or Otago university).

The NZRFU is not a charity, if a player is playing in NZ and has international options, I would expect them to make a case for choosing NZ, otherwise they're are not doing their job properly. That's hardly unique to NZ. I imagine the IRFU had a talk to Rhys Ruddock about the Wales v Ireland option for example.

I don't belive the NZRFU flies out to the Islands on a regualr basis recruiting players, or heads to France or wherever the Islanders play, and gets them to come to NZ and declare for NZ.

Podge_irl

Swiwi. wrote: »

As I think I've shown (maybe unsuccessfuly), the vast majority of Pacific Islandes who play for NZ, are born in NZ and grow up there. Some others come for rugby in their high school years, and some come for rugby and university studies (I imagine a degree from Suva Univeristy has less international appeal than Auckland or Otago university).

I may have been slightly unclear but I essentially agree. A 17 year old moving from Samoa to a larger country with more opportunities isn't exactly earth-shattering stuff. I imagine many (perhaps the majority, perhaps the vast majority, who knows) do it off their own backs. They're not idiots, they know what the best option for them financially is. If they're good enough they won't need a recruiting spiel from the NZRFU, they'll quite likely want to move there.

Swiwi.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I may have been slightly unclear but I essentially agree. A 17 year old moving from Samoa to a larger country with more opportunities isn't exactly earth-shattering stuff. I imagine many (perhaps the majority, perhaps the vast majority, who knows) do it off their own backs. They're not idiots, they know what the best option for them financially is. If they're good enough they won't need a recruiting spiel from the NZRFU, they'll quite likely want to move there.

Yup that's it. No different to your Irish football player who wants a shot at the Liverpool academy. It was fekitoa who approached Wesley college. But for every fekitoa there are other players who do other things than stay in NZ. Plenty of Pacific island players in Europe as we know.

Wang King

Swiwi. wrote: »

NB: the NZRFU did propose what you suggested about letting people play for more than 1 country. I believe your union among others vetoed this proposal.

The Welsh union?

Swiwi.

Wang King wrote: »

The Welsh union?

A Kerry (or is it Cork or Limerick, I forget) Welshman??

Wang King

Swiwi. wrote: »

A Kerry (or is it Cork or Limerick, I forget) Welshman??

English born, of Irish and Welsh parentage....ie mongrel

total former

Podge_irl wrote: »

17 or 18 year olds are also well capable of deciding to go play rugby where they think they'll get the most benefit.

Of course, it's a no-brainer for them as individuals. Some kid in the relative poverty of Tonga or Samoa gets the chance to go to a prestigious New Zealand school and maybe get a pro career at the end of it, of course he's going to take it.

But it's still NZ schools cherry-picking guys from the islands on the basis of their rugby ability.

Edit: I don't particularly find this practice objectionable but it's relevant in the current discussion.

Swiwi.

total former wrote: »

Of course, it's a no-brainer for them as individuals. Some kid in the relative poverty of Tonga or Samoa gets the chance to go to a prestigious New Zealand school and maybe get a pro career at the end of it, of course he's going to take it.

But it's still NZ schools cherry-picking guys from the islands on the basis of their rugby ability.

So are we debating NZRFU here or "NZ schools" (of which we are both short of knowledge on this particular subject)? Do we have any facts of figures on this? At all? Or is it pie in the sky stuff, in that we actually haven't got a lot to go on? Which schools have scholarships? Are they purely rugby scholarships? Are they reserved for Pacific Islanders? Etc etc.

The Lost Sheep

Swiwi. wrote: »

So are we debating NZRFU here or "NZ schools" (of which we are both short of knowledge on this particular subject)? Do we have any facts of figures on this? At all? Or is it pie in the sky stuff, in that we actually haven't got a lot to go on? Which schools have scholarships? Are they purely rugby scholarships? Are they reserved for Pacific Islanders? Etc etc.

I havent really seen stats etc but there is plenty of articles on NZ schools offering scholarships/poaching. Look up "scholarships rugby new Zealand schools" etc and you will see plenty of schools offer them. They may not officially for rugby but essentially are. Not reserved for Islanders...

total former

Swiwi. wrote: »

So are we debating NZRFU here or "NZ schools" (of which we are both short of knowledge on this particular subject)? Do we have any facts of figures on this? At all? Or is it pie in the sky stuff, in that we actually haven't got a lot to go on? Which schools have scholarships? Are they purely rugby scholarships? Are they reserved for Pacific Islanders? Etc etc.

It's not pie in the sky at all, you know as well as I do that it goes on. I'm not sure what you're disputing tbh. The rights and wrongs are debatable but the existence of such a process is not.

NZRFU obviously don't give out scholarships but they are the ultimate beneficiaries if/when these guys declare for NZ.

Swiwi.

total former wrote: »

It's not pie in the sky at all, you know as well as I do that it goes on. I'm not sure what you're disputing tbh. The rights and wrongs are debatable but the existence of such a process is not.

NZRFU obviously don't give out scholarships but they are the ultimate beneficiaries if/when these guys declare for NZ.

Yes I agree in principle. I do wonder though how many capped All Blacks actually came through the pathway of a schools rugby scholarship (ie leaving the islands to attend a secondary school on a rugby scholarship)?? I'd say single digits max. Hardly a pandemic.

Edit: if I take the 2007 RWC squad, which is often cited as the worst example of NZ poaching, we have 30 players and 12 with Pacific Heritage. Of those 12, Mealamu, Tialata, Howlett, and Mauger are born in NZ. Collins, Lauaki, Masoe, So'oialo, Muliaina, Rococoko, Sivivavatu and Toeava are born in the Islands. Muliaiana arrived aged 2, Rococoko aged 5. Collins I don't know, but he went to Silverstream Town, and wasn't on a rugby scholarship. Lauaki, Masoe, So'oialo, Toeava I can't find any information, but all arrived no later than high school. Sivivatu was actually on a soccer scholarship, I think he arrived the latest. I can't do any more research than that, sorry.

irishbucsfan

Swiwi. wrote: »

Yes I agree in principle. I do wonder though how many capped All Blacks actually came through the pathway of a schools rugby scholarship (ie leaving the islands to attend a secondary school on a rugby scholarship)?? I'd say single digits max. Hardly a pandemic.

This isn't New Zealand's problem, this is just a problem created in New Zealand. The real question is how many potential internationals did not go on to represent those countries because they were brought across.

Swiwi.

IBF has entered the fray. Game over for me

hahashake

The flipside of course is the number of NZ born players playing for Samoa. 16 players in Samoa's 2011 RWC squad were born in NZ. That's not counting those raised predominantly in NZ. I imagine their 2015 squad won't be much different.

How many Samoan born players in the current ABs? Zero.

(Unless you want to count American Samoan born Jerome Kaino who came to NZ as a toddler, though I'm not sure if that makes him eligible for Samoa.)

Yeah_Right

Swiwi. wrote: »

Edit: NZ 1991 team (25 member squad) had 3 players with Pacific Origins (Michael Jones, born Auckland; Graeme Bachop, born Chch; Va'aiga Tuigamala, born Samoa), just another of the facts you got wrong there.

You forgot Walter Little. Born in Tokoroa of Fijian ancestory.

I grew up in Auckland and you often heard stories of scholarships for rugby. Some examples were Joe Rokocoko, the Brooke brothers, Walter Little and John Afoa. All of them got scholarships to private boarding schools after being seen playing rugby for crappy state schools in poor neighbourhoods or towns in NZ. A mate of mine got the exact same thing.

Sivivatu and Fekitoa are the only ones I've heard of from the islands. I have no doubt that there NZ schools that offer scholarships to kids from the islands. I don't believe it's a case of sending scouts but more likely when the schools tour the islands or when schools from the islands tour NZ.

I think it's great that the ABs are playing Samoa in Samoa. But it is just a PR exercise. The Samoan union would have made more money if the game was played in Auckland.

I believe that the eligibility rules need to be changed. Something like if a player makes less than 10 or 15 appearances for a tier 1 nation, they should be allowed to switch to a tier 2 nation after a stand down period of maybe 3 years.

total former

Re: the actual match, former Connacht back-rower Ofisa Treviranus will captain the Samoans

The Lost Sheep

Samoan squad named

Wayne Ole Avei, Ma'atulimanu Leiataua, Viliamu Afatia, Census Johnston, Anthony Perenise, Sakaria Taulafo, Kane Thompson, Teofilo Paulo, Iosefa Tekori, Fa'atiga Lemalu, Alafoti Faosiliva, Jack Lam, Ofisa Treviranus (captain), Maurie Fa'asavalu, T.J. Ioane, Kahn Fotuali'i, Peleifofoga Cowley, Tusi Pisi, Michael Stanley, Alofa Alofa, Ken Pisi, Alesana Tuilagi, Faialaga Afamasaga, Johnny Leota, Paul Perez, Tim Nanai-Williams, Ah See Tuala

sydthebeat

for the interested, the game is on on 8th July at 15:00 in samoa, which is 03:00 on the same day here

total former

Did that Michael Stanley guy ever actually play for Ulster? (and if so, is he any use?)

sydthebeat

total former wrote: »

Did that Michael Stanley guy ever actually play for Ulster? (and if so, is he any use?)

he played against scarlets and dragons

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/players.php?player=82095&includeref=dynamic#ZzlxIspH7FlTfVMY.97

sydneybound

The game will be shown on Sky Sports. Reckon that's a record and have quick watch in the morning match.

sydneybound

Samoans will get a half-day public holiday next Wednesday so they can watch the historic rugby Test between Manu Samoa and the All Blacks in Apia.

The Samoan Prime Minister Tuila'epa Sa'ilele Malielegaoi, who is also the chairman of Samoa's rugby union, says a public announcement to confirm the public holiday will be made next week.

duckysauce

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Samoan squad named

Wayne Ole Avei, Ma'atulimanu Leiataua, Viliamu Afatia, Census Johnston, Anthony Perenise, Sakaria Taulafo, Kane Thompson, Teofilo Paulo, Iosefa Tekori, Fa'atiga Lemalu, Alafoti Faosiliva, Jack Lam, Ofisa Treviranus (captain), Maurie Fa'asavalu, T.J. Ioane, Kahn Fotuali'i, Peleifofoga Cowley, Tusi Pisi, Michael Stanley, Alofa Alofa, Ken Pisi, Alesana Tuilagi, Faialaga Afamasaga, Johnny Leota, Paul Perez, Tim Nanai-Williams, Ah See Tuala

thought Cenus gave up on test rugby

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_42443,00.html

sydneybound

They asked him to come back cause of other frontrow injuries. He probably still won't play in the WC. Well Toulouse will insist he doesn't.

Swiwi.

duckysauce wrote: »

thought Census gave up on test rugby

He wanted to play for Samoa when it really counts...

(sorry, it's terrible I know)

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

Will be fun to see if I'm right!

From 15 to 1: Dagg, Slade, Crotty, SBW, Piutau, Carter, Ellis, Read, Todd, Kaino, Whitelock, Retallick, Franks, Mealamu, Woodcock.

Reserves from 16 to 23: Laulala, Taylor, Crockett, Romano, McCaw, Weber, Moala, ??another outside back

Above is what I said. Below is what the man who counts said

All Blacks: Tony Woodcock, Keven Mealamu, Owen Franks, Luke Romano, Samuel Whitelock, Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Andy Ellis, Daniel Carter, Charles Piutau, Sonny Bill Williams, Ryan Crotty, George Moala, Israel Dagg. Reserves: Hika Elliot, Wyatt Crockett, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Matt Todd, Brad Weber, Colin Slade, Charlie Ngatai.

I got 12/15 of the starting side, and 3/8 for the reserves. Not bad, but must improve...

Polynesian head count: Mealamu, Kaino, Piutau, SBW, Moala, Laulala. Poached: Kaino (American Samoa), Laulala (Samoa)

duckysauce

Swiwi. wrote: »

Above is what I said. Below is what the man who counts said

All Blacks: Tony Woodcock, Keven Mealamu, Owen Franks, Luke Romano, Samuel Whitelock, Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Andy Ellis, Daniel Carter, Charles Piutau, Sonny Bill Williams, Ryan Crotty, George Moala, Israel Dagg. Reserves: Hika Elliot, Wyatt Crockett, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Matt Todd, Brad Weber, Colin Slade, Charlie Ngatai.

I got 12/15 of the starting side, and 3/8 for the reserves. Not bad, but must improve...

Polynesian head count: Mealamu, Kaino, Piutau, SBW, Moala, Laulala. Poached: Kaino (American Samoa), Laulala (Samoa)

What NZ scrum half do you see starting for WC ?

smiley_face

duckysauce wrote: »

What NZ scrum half do you see starting for WC ?

I reckon Aaron Smith, with TJ Perenara a very close 2nd choice.

Swiwi.

duckysauce wrote: »

What NZ scrum half do you see starting for WC ?

smiley_face wrote: »

I reckon Aaron Smith, with TJ Perenara a very close 2nd choice.

Aaron Smith with TJ Perenara a distant 2nd choice. The SXV final showed there is quite a gap between the two.

TBH, if you do follow NZ rugby, the interest is for the 3rd scrumhalf: Tawera Kerr-Barlow vs Andy Ellis vs Brad Weber.

This Samoa match is very much a last shot at glory for Ellis, he was only called up because Kerr-Barlow is recovering from injury, while Weber was only called up because of the SXV final.

Aaron Smith has really improved his box-kicking, it was Murray-esque in recent weeks.