How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

BZ · 09-10-2019 5:02pm

HTCOne wrote: »

Interesting, so why am I regularly getting Notams advising Cat 7 only available during peak eastbound flow?

And indeed I was incorrect about PIK, it seems LGW and LHR are the only civilian airports with runways significantly longer than 3,200m. I’d still love to know where the nonsense about longest runway in Europe came from though.

If the notam says CAT 7 only available during peak eastbound flow this is to coincide with the arrival of the US traffic which is mainly 757 traffic into the airport. CAT9 is available when requested which is most days given the charter and cargo traffic.
Europe's longest runway was probably donkeys years ago when it first opened but that has not been the case for some time.

HTCOne · 09-10-2019 5:05pm

BZ wrote: »

If the notam says CAT 7 only available during peak eastbound flow this is to coincide with the arrival of the US traffic which is mainly 757 traffic into the airport. CAT9 is available when requested which is most days given the charter and cargo traffic.
Europe's longest runway was probably donkeys years ago when it first opened but that has not been the case for some time.

Sorry I mistyped, I meant to say CAT9 NOT available. I know the airport only handles scheduled 757s & smaller during these hours, but it means any 767 or larger aircraft needs to head elsewhere in a diversion scenario.

BZ · 09-10-2019 5:40pm

HTCOne wrote: »

Sorry I mistyped, I meant to say CAT9 NOT available. I know the airport only handles scheduled 757s & smaller during these hours, but it means any 767 or larger aircraft needs to head elsewhere in a diversion scenario.

Bumping it up from 7 to 9 can be achieved quiet easily in an emergency situation at this time as its change over time for the fire service and staff can be asked to stay on from what I understand.

easypazz · 09-10-2019 6:08pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about government strategy. I was referring to the ridiculous part of the post about Kerry and Knock serving it's catchment area.

Shannon isn't doing as well as it could be doing, but it's still easily out performing Knock and Kerry. Plus it's already got sizeable MRO and leasing businesses based there and there's a huge widebody hanger almost finished construction. It's not in danger of going under any time soon.

I was replying to somebody else who claimed both Shannons location and the length of its runway made it of such strategic importance to the government that it couldn't close it.

I still can't see how either its location or the length of its runway make it of strategic importance.

tototoe · 09-10-2019 6:36pm

Have to say in the last year or two the marketing of the airport has really slid imo.
They used to be really good at it. Facebook and the likes will only get you so far amidst all the noise on those channels. It was shocking they had no presence at the Irish open in lahinch as just one example.

Henry Ford III · 10-10-2019 12:23pm

I flew Snn-Ewr and back with United recently.

The airport is a doddle to use. Parking is easy and is decent value too. Check in relatively quick and security and the US Customs and Pre inspection very efficient.

Clearly the airport is under used. I'm not sure is the issue a pure lack of demand or poor marketing but something needs to be done soon to reverse the slide.

p.s. Cork is fine but it can't handle big planes on long haul routes. Knock is not comparable really.

easypazz · 10-10-2019 12:38pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I flew Snn-Ewr and back with United recently.

The airport is a doddle to use. Parking is easy and is decent value too. Check in relatively quick and security and the US Customs and Pre inspection very efficient.

Clearly the airport is under used. I'm not sure is the issue a pure lack of demand or poor marketing but something needs to be done soon to reverse the slide.

p.s. Cork is fine but it can't handle big planes on long haul routes. Knock is not comparable really.

Long term the government really need to increase investment in the Midwest region and focus development away from Dublin, because it is totally overcrowded on every level.

Balf · 10-10-2019 1:00pm

easypazz wrote: »

Long term the government really need to increase investment in the Midwest region and focus development away from Dublin, because it is totally overcrowded on every level.

Again, I think the focus on Dublin is unhelpful. Dublin is grand - don't worry about Dublin. "totally overcrowded on every level" is an empty meme; it has nothing to do with any solution for Shannon.

What is it that the Midwest needs that it doesn't already have? If Shannon traffic is lower than we'd like, it has nothing to do with lack of investment. You'll find many confirming that Shannon is "easy to use" as it has so much unused capacity at present. There's actually no particular need for increased investment, no constraint that prevents more services from locating there.

There's a lack of passengers and, apparently, the strange sight of many people from Galway, Clare and Limerick inexplicably choosing to fly from Dublin (apparently unaware that it's totally overcrowded at every level, and it would make far more sense for them to avail of any possible alternative to Dublin.)

So screw Government. Mid-West local authorities and Chambers of Commerce, and other local groups should be exhorting people to use the goddamn airport.

BobMc · 10-10-2019 1:30pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Genuine question - given I agree with the hassle you noted, would you take a feeder flight SNN-DUB above that? Assuming it was well timed etc?

I would and think its a great idea, One check, remaining airside,

Frequent cheap connects up and down,

I just think DUB ended up wrong side of dublin to best serve us from outside the pale.

10-10-2019 1:58pm

BobMc wrote: »

I would and think its a great idea, One check, remaining airside,

Frequent cheap connects up and down,

I just think DUB ended up wrong side of dublin to best serve us from outside the pale.

Yeah why weren't they thinking of this sort of thing in 1939 !

Balf · 10-10-2019 2:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah why weren't they thinking of this sort of thing in 1939 !

In fairness, they didn't do too bad if it ended up serving more than 80% of air passengers.

Pretty impressive if it's in the wrong location.

I'd have thought that Cork Airport is the only one that's in the wrong place.

Is Shannon in the wrong place? I mean, too late to do anything about it now. But it's slap bang on the coast, as it was originally meant to include a Flying Boat base (that was never actually needed.) That, in theory at least, halves its potential catchment - similar to the problem of Dublin's coastline-hugging DART line. Beautiful views, but ducks and fish don't use transportation so much.

Would it do better if it had been planned and located as an airport for Limerick City or Galway City? Idle thought at this stage.

Balf · 14-10-2019 10:14am

They won't like that, Ted.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/do-hard-work-yourself-walsh-tells-shannon-airport-38590557.html

Shannon Airport has a viable future as a seasonal transatlantic gateway and should stop "demanding that everyone else does the hard work for them", Willie Walsh says.

Geuze · 14-10-2019 10:28am

HTCOne wrote: »

The airport couldn’t even sustain CDG flights (I was a regular user). For whatever reason people are voting with their feet. Bar the Northeast US & London, it’s an absolute pain in the arse to get anywhere, with 1 & 2 weekly flights here and there. It’s my local airport & I’d love to be able to use it for a long weekend in Rome or Paris but that’s no longer possible. That isn’t the fault of the airlines or Dublin airport, it’s people in the Shannon catchment who used to use it but now prefer saving a few quid or having more choice of flights via DUB.

The likes of Loganair, Stobart and Flybe would be ideal customers for the airport to pursue imo, maybe HOP too.

Sorry, I haven't read the full thread, but can I ask is it the case that excluding TA flights, all SNN has is UK flights, and none to continental Europe?

Balf · 14-10-2019 11:05am

Geuze wrote: »

Sorry, I haven't read the full thread, but can I ask is it the case that excluding TA flights, all SNN has is UK flights, and none to continental Europe?

There are some flights to European destinations - but none to any significant European hub.

By contrast, Cork Airport has services to AMS and Paris - CDG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_Airport#Busiest_routes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Airport#Busiest_routes

Blut2 · 14-10-2019 11:36am

ORK and SNN between them would have enough combined transatlantic and European traffic to be a viable regional airport. But the problem is them both being so close to each other, and splitting the limited catchment area population/air traffic, means neither is viable as things are currently.

Ideally I think one of them would be closed/downsized to prioritize the other, but that would be an incredibly hard sell politically to the locals living very close to either one.

Balf · 14-10-2019 1:00pm

Blut2 wrote: »

Ideally I think one of them would be closed/downsized to prioritize the other, but that would be an incredibly hard sell politically to the locals living very close to either one.

In one way, I know what you mean - if you could add the two airports together, you'd have quite a decent operation. But just a few thoughts:

Could Shannon's T/A business move to Cork? Cork Airport's runway is quite short, and I understand there are practical barriers to extending it.

Would Cork's European routes work in Shannon? If so, why are they not there already? For whatever reason, Cork Airport seems to be more successful in getting local people to use these routes from their local airport. Would they still use them if they moved to Shannon?

Would we envisage (and I know this is only us imagining how it might play out in theory) that Cork or Shannon would close to scheduled traffic, but Knock and Farranfore would continue in operation? Between them, they serve about 1 million passengers. Would you expect one of them to close, before Cork or Shannon (bearing in mind that Galway Airport no longer has any commercial traffic.)

Acosta · 14-10-2019 1:06pm

One large Airport built in the Mallow area with motorways in different directions would probably be ideal. Never going to happen though.

14-10-2019 1:18pm

”Shannon Airport has a viable future as a seasonal transatlantic gateway and should stop "demanding that everyone else does the hard work for them", Willie Walsh says.“

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/do-hard-work-yourself-walsh-tells-shannon-airport-38590557.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/1014/1083236-shannon-airport/

Church plate being rattled in the second article.

Only airport on the island with a negative growth rate at the moment. Why are they allowed access the regional airport fund, I’ve been told in this topic that they aren’t a regional airport ?

Blut2 · 14-10-2019 2:42pm

Balf wrote: »

In one way, I know what you mean - if you could add the two airports together, you'd have quite a decent operation. But just a few thoughts:

Could Shannon's T/A business move to Cork? Cork Airport's runway is quite short, and I understand there are practical barriers to extending it.

Would Cork's European routes work in Shannon? If so, why are they not there already? For whatever reason, Cork Airport seems to be more successful in getting local people to use these routes from their local airport. Would they still use them if they moved to Shannon?

Would we envisage (and I know this is only us imagining how it might play out in theory) that Cork or Shannon would close to scheduled traffic, but Knock and Farranfore would continue in operation? Between them, they serve about 1 million passengers. Would you expect one of them to close, before Cork or Shannon (bearing in mind that Galway Airport no longer has any commercial traffic.)

Cork's semi-successful European routes are a function of its larger population catchment, compared to Shannon. They wouldn't/don't function as well in Shannon because Shannon is too far from Cork city - people just go to DUB instead. As far as T/A traffic goes I'm not sure about ORK's runway, but I presume if the willpower was there something could be fixed.

Ideally in terms of developing a South/Western regional airport I think all of ORK, SNN and Kerry/Farranfore would close - and a combined replacement would be built just south of Limerick City. That would be 1hr 20min from both Galway and Cork city, under 2hrs from Waterford, and obviously next to Limerick. The combined traffic of those three is close to 4.5mn PAX already, with a bit of synergy it would grow even more in theory.

Then again in such idealistic theoretical scenarios theres always the point that compared to the airport situation in most other countries/regions DUB is close enough to every major population point on the island as is, so all resources should just be focused there. 1hr 45min to Belfast, 2hrs 20min to Galway & Limerick, and 2hrs 45min to Cork city are all quite reasonable travel times. And there are such massive economies of scale, and connection/growth benefits, to just focusing all development on one airport if possible.

lisasimpson · 14-10-2019 9:44pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/1014/1083236-shannon-airport/

Chris_5339762 · 14-10-2019 9:53pm

High speed rail from Cork up to Limerick, onwards to Dublin (serving Heuston, Connolly and the Airport) and then onwards up to Belfast maybe stopping in Newry.

Solved. Close Cork and Shannon. Pie in the sky yes, but interesting. Such a link would decimate the regionals if Cork -Dublin Airport by train was < 90 mins.

Locker10a · 14-10-2019 10:46pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

High speed rail from Cork up to Limerick, onwards to Dublin (serving Heuston, Connolly and the Airport) and then onwards up to Belfast maybe stopping in Newry.

Solved. Close Cork and Shannon. Pie in the sky yes, but interesting. Such a link would decimate the regionals if Cork -Dublin Airport by train was < 90 mins.

Do you think business travellers going to London for perhaps a day trip would really want a 90 min train journey to Dublin if the live in Cork, and then have to get a flight after that, no thanks

Irish Steve · 14-10-2019 11:36pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Do you think business travellers going to London for perhaps a day trip would really want a 90 min train journey to Dublin if the live in Cork, and then have to get a flight after that, no thanks

That's not high speed rail! In 2019, China started testing a magnetic levitation ("maglev") prototype train that runs at 600 Km/h, and they have the largest high speed network in the world.

On that basis, Cork to Dublin would be under 30 minutes,

Having said that, and this is even more tongue in cheek, in the ultra long term, why would we confine that sort of rail system to Ireland, if the dire predictions of the climate brigade are to be believed, then we will need this sort of speed rail network to move anywhere, as air travel won't be happening over continental distances, and the brutal reality is that something like Rotterdam port could end up being built in the Shannon Estuary, with high speed rail links from there to Europe, ( forget about the Brexit nonsense for now), and that route will be used for both passengers and freight, as even large container ships will be seen as unacceptable, bunker fuel as used in such ships is way more polluting than even air travel. If that were to happen, the Shannon Estuary could then become the transatlantic travel and freight hub for Europe, linking by air to somewhere like Boston, with similar rail links within the US. To put that in context, a rail link could offer reliable journey times of less than an hour to London, that's better than the present air timings, given the hassle of "security" and the like. The construction costs would be stratospheric, but in the long term, it may be the only way to really tackle travel emissions, unless there's a new power source that we don't know about yet.

Maybe a better energy system for aircraft will be found, but somehow, I doubt that there is the political will to encourage such a change, we can't even address the stupidity of transporting single use plastic bottles of "designer" water half way across Europe, and that's only one example, and it could be taxed out of existence overnight if they really wanted to do it.

Neworder79 · 15-10-2019 9:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are they allowed access the regional airport fund, I’ve been told in this topic that they aren’t a regional airport ?

They are still one of the three State airports, so outside the "Regional" airports programme.

This is a new Brexit marketing support programme as UK disruption has potential to have more impact outside the major Dublin hub so Cork and Shannon are included.

But it's pretty laughable to hear the same management and Clare politicians who like brexiteers banged the drums for independence from the 'shackles' of the DAA holding them back from true potential, now seeking regional status and not able to afford basic x-ray equipment.

Balf · 15-10-2019 10:11am

http://www.clare.fm/news/shannon-airport/delegation-attempt-secure-meeting-minister-shannon-airports-future/

It’s hoped this cross-county approach will lead to some action being taken and Independent Sixmilebridge Councillor PJ Ryan fears that unless something changes, Shannon may no longer be the dominant airport in the west.

Do we care if Knock passes out Shannon? Is that the issue?

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2019 11:13am

What do they want the minister to do? Kidnap Michael O'Leary until he agrees to open up some routes?

Idbatterim · 18-10-2019 12:24pm

There should be air routes between Shannon and cork to Dublin in my opinion. Why should they have to fly to London or Manchester to connect , when Dublin offers a huge amount of routes! Our airports would also get an increase in business!

Henry Ford III · 18-10-2019 12:56pm

Paris and Amsterdam would be very welcome and hopefully busy and profitable routes.

It'd not a question of throwing more money at marketing I'd suggest. Might be more a matter of kicking some ass within marketing.

yew_tree · 18-10-2019 5:18pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No this is what's nonsense. There are around 250,000 people living within 30 - 40 mins of Shannon. Cork and especially Kerry and Knock do not serve its catchment area. I'm all for it standing on it's own two feet, but please less of the ridiculous statements.

I’ve met people on flights out of knock from Co.Clare...

john boye · 18-10-2019 7:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

There should be air routes between Shannon and cork to Dublin in my opinion. Why should they have to fly to London or Manchester to connect , when Dublin offers a huge amount of routes! Our airports would also get an increase in business!

A Shannon - Dublin route would just deliver more business to Dublin, is that not literally the opposite of what they're trying to achieve?

JCX BXC · 19-10-2019 1:22pm

I've gotten a headache from skimming this thread.

marno21 · 19-10-2019 1:38pm

yew_tree wrote: »

I’ve met people on flights out of knock from Co.Clare...

I’m from Cork and I’ve flown from Knock

The Knock-Liverpool flights are well timed and usually have good deals as opposed to the Cork flights in Winter which tend to become over subscribed

JCX BXC · 19-10-2019 1:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

I’m from Cork and I’ve flown from Knock

The Knock-Liverpool flights are well timed and usually have good deals as opposed to the Cork flights in Winter which tend to become over subscribed

Some people are willing to travel further afield for flights, my neighbours flew from Belfast a few years back because it was the only place in Ireland with direct flights to that region of Turkey.

Some others wouldn't fly from anywhere other than the local airport.

lisasimpson · 23-10-2019 7:08pm

A bit of a surprise but nice to see the Vienna announcement for shannon. March to October I think. Pity it's not there for the christmas market season. Hopefully all possible avenues are used to promote this

JCX BXC · 23-10-2019 7:16pm

lisasimpson wrote: »

A bit of a surprise but nice to see the Vienna announcement for shannon. March to October I think. Pity it's not there for the christmas market season. Hopefully all possible avenues are used to promote this

Much too late for Christmas season really, however good to see. Nice to see European routes coming on stream.

The timing suggest to me that it'll mainly be an inbound route, but local advertising will be useful.

coastwatch · 23-10-2019 7:26pm

Slightly off topic, but why did the American Airlines flight emergency (chemical spill) a few days ago divert to Dublin and not Shannon?
It was reported it was 250 miles off SW coast, so Shannon would be closest landing option.

JCX BXC · 23-10-2019 7:29pm

coastwatch wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but why did the American Airlines flight emergency (chemical spill) a few days ago divert to Dublin and not Shannon?
It was reported it was 250 miles off SW coast, so Shannon would be closest landing option.

Not really the thread for it, but there's many reasons

*Shorter distance to hospital
*Easier for operations (American Airlines don't operate from Shannon this time of year)
*The descent required could have meant Dublin and Shannon were equal time, or close to apart.

That's just an example of some of the reasons.

Eric Cartman · 23-10-2019 7:34pm

I really think the only hope shannon actually has at this point is if the IDA and the government give amazon a big filthy tax deal to open a fulfilment centre in shannon and a big filthy tax deal to a cargo carrier. DHL flying planes full of products from the states etc... to shannon and all the orders for western europe being fulfilled there and shipped out again is pretty much that regions best hope for local jobs and that airport.

lisasimpson · 24-10-2019 12:35pm

Defo think there's room for a Shannon Paris route. Currently Paris is served by aer lingus and go hop from cork and today go hop announced for the summer season it will be a twice daily service. It's clear there is a strong demand for Paris in the munster region

mdmix · 24-10-2019 1:24pm

lisasimpson wrote: »

Defo think there's room for a Shannon Paris route. Currently Paris is served by aer lingus and go hop from cork and today go hop announced for the summer season it will be a twice daily service. It's clear there is a strong demand for Paris in the munster region

ya, but with aer lingus & aer france both operating that route from cork the only hope would be that ryanair will step in at shannon

Flesh Gorden · 26-10-2019 1:36pm

mdmix wrote: »

ya, but with aer lingus & aer france both operating that route from cork the only hope would be that ryanair will step in at shannon

Ryanair only fly to Beauvais, which requires a 90min €17 bus trip to Porte Maillot and a further 60min €20 'Le Bus Direct' to CDG or another 90mins, train hopping from RER A to B.

BZ · 31-10-2019 1:29pm

Not confirmed but word is Aer Lingus will announce Paris and Barcelona next week for Summer 2020 from SNN. This would be fantastic news if it comes off.

JCX BXC · 31-10-2019 2:10pm

Seems this thread was rather premature, numbers haven't even fallen yet. New route announcements.

We really have a gloom attitude towards our airports in Ireland.

VivaLasBegas · 05-11-2019 9:45pm

BZ wrote: »

Not confirmed but word is Aer Lingus will announce Paris and Barcelona next week for Summer 2020 from SNN. This would be fantastic news if it comes off.

Cannot post a full link but as predicted CDG and BCN to be announced tomorrow. Great news for SNN and these routes should prove popular and be well supported.

irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-to-launch-flights-from-shannon-to-paris-and-barcelona-1.4073539

rivegauche · 06-11-2019 4:09pm

What plane will service these routes and will it continue on across the atlantic?

ratracer · 06-11-2019 4:20pm

Barcelona in the summer will provide a great route for families heading to campsites etc from Salou up the coast into South of France. I’ve flown Dub- BCN a couple of times to do this and I’m delighted I will be able to go from SNN this time around.
Hopefully some more European city destinations will follow

highlydebased · 06-11-2019 4:24pm

rivegauche wrote: »

What plane will service these routes and will it continue on across the atlantic?

A320. It'll fly to Heathrow the rest of the day.

The new A321LR will fly in from the US, then on the early LHR, then back to the US at lunchtime

rivegauche · 06-11-2019 4:32pm

If it makes other flights at Shannon more viable by stimulating transfer traffic then I'm all for it.

JCX BXC · 06-11-2019 4:40pm

rivegauche wrote: »

If it makes other flights at Shannon more viable by stimulating transfer traffic then I'm all for it.

What if it doesn't, and these flights are simply sustainable just by themselves and don't have an effect on the US routes? Would you then not 'be for it'?

Rented Mule · 06-11-2019 4:45pm

One of the things that need to happen is the option to fly directly into Shannon from the USA (Chicago). As someone who grew up in the States, we would always fly direct into Shannon. It was always much more convenient for us.

How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

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